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DIRECTFLT
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LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:05 am

Shortly after they teed off in the first LIV Golf event, every PGA Tour member was suspended. Graeme McDowell was dismayed. Ian Poulter vowed to appeal.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-p ... s-no-sense

Yahoo Finance: PGA suspends golfers participating in Saudi-backed LIV Tour

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXHzJxMGVqo
 
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Aaron747
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:11 am

It totally makes sense - taking blood money from KSA is being rightfully opposed by PGA.

https://twitter.com/austintylerro/statu ... tI4mpX72Kw
 
SoCalPilot
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It totally makes sense - taking blood money from KSA is being rightfully opposed by PGA.

https://twitter.com/austintylerro/statu ... tI4mpX72Kw

Are you suggesting that the PGA wouldn't do the same if a competing tour started up that wasn't being funded by the Saudis?

They're starting to get some bigger names now such as Dechambeau and Patrick Reed (and even Rickie Fowler), but what I'd be worried about if I were the PGA are the younger players on the Korn Ferry Tour and other upcoming talented amateurs turning pro...if you were them do you grind it out ok the PGA Tour and pay all of your expenses with no guarantee you'll make money or do you go to the LIV where you're guaranteed a paycheck?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:28 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It totally makes sense - taking blood money from KSA is being rightfully opposed by PGA.

https://twitter.com/austintylerro/statu ... tI4mpX72Kw


I laugh at the selective outrage!!!!!

NBA in China... FIFA players going to the highest bidder...every time, and NO ONE cares!!!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:39 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It totally makes sense - taking blood money from KSA is being rightfully opposed by PGA.

https://twitter.com/austintylerro/statu ... tI4mpX72Kw


I laugh at the selective outrage!!!!!

NBA in China... FIFA players going to the highest bidder...every time, and NO ONE cares!!!


My outrage is not selective. I have had a crimp in the neck about KSA since 2001. China is many things but it is not a two-faced regime that makes nice with Israel on one hand while perenially funding terror and Islamist schools with the other.
 
LabQuest
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:44 am

Who's actually watching the tour? Where can you even watch it live? Youtube? What a joke. These players should face a lifetime ban of any tours inside the USA.
 
ltbewr
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:46 am

Now professional golf has been infected with the greed bug like most sports. The LIV professional golf organization means top winners get much more money in most matches as fewer players allowed, with fewer holes per event (54 vs 72- LIV is roman numerals for 54) as compared to the PGA and other golf tour groups. And what is the difference in money ethics if it comes from the KSA blood/oil money or from big, crooked, greedy banks, financial services, and other corporate sponsors of most PGA tour events. I bet Donald Trump would love to have and I expect him to be begging for a LIV event at one of his golf courses/resorts in the USA or Europe out of his greed, financial position and lack of humanity. Of course, the PGA doesn't like the competition for top players or the ethical issues especially as its name implies, is a USA based organization from one based and funded by the KSA.
 
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scbriml
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:57 am

LabQuest wrote:
These players should face a lifetime ban of any tours inside the USA.


That would almost certainly be ruled illegal restraint of trade in a court of law. Which is why even repeat drug cheats don't get life bans.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:48 am

ltbewr wrote:
Now professional golf has been infected with the greed bug like most sports. The LIV professional golf organization means top winners get much more money in most matches as fewer players allowed, with fewer holes per event (54 vs 72- LIV is roman numerals for 54) as compared to the PGA and other golf tour groups. And what is the difference in money ethics if it comes from the KSA blood/oil money or from big, crooked, greedy banks, financial services, and other corporate sponsors of most PGA tour events. I bet Donald Trump would love to have and I expect him to be begging for a LIV event at one of his golf courses/resorts in the USA or Europe out of his greed, financial position and lack of humanity. Of course, the PGA doesn't like the competition for top players or the ethical issues especially as its name implies, is a USA based organization from one based and funded by the KSA.

You must have missed this tweet:
Aaron747 wrote:
It totally makes sense - taking blood money from KSA is being rightfully opposed by PGA.

https://twitter.com/austintylerro/statu ... tI4mpX72Kw


A season ending event at Trump Miami.
 
ltbewr
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:21 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Now professional golf has been infected with the greed bug like most sports. The LIV professional golf organization means top winners get much more money in most matches as fewer players allowed, with fewer holes per event (54 vs 72- LIV is roman numerals for 54) as compared to the PGA and other golf tour groups. And what is the difference in money ethics if it comes from the KSA blood/oil money or from big, crooked, greedy banks, financial services, and other corporate sponsors of most PGA tour events. I bet Donald Trump would love to have and I expect him to be begging for a LIV event at one of his golf courses/resorts in the USA or Europe out of his greed, financial position and lack of humanity. Of course, the PGA doesn't like the competition for top players or the ethical issues especially as its name implies, is a USA based organization from one based and funded by the KSA.

You must have missed this tweet:
Aaron747 wrote:
It totally makes sense - taking blood money from KSA is being rightfully opposed by PGA.
https://twitter.com/austintylerro/statu ... tI4mpX72Kw

A season ending event at Trump Miami.


Of course. I should have checked the LIV schedule. The Saudi government will bribe anyone, especially an ex-President in Trump who supported them despite their lack of human rights. I would love to see a few 100 protesting outside the gates of the Trump (as well as other) event sites.
 
luckyone
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:40 pm

Private business can do what they want, so the line goes. If I understand it correctly, the actual legal justification is that there are co-occurring events between the two tours, which according to PGA regs isn't allowed. Everything else is just noise. The players get to make the choice and they have to accept any repercussions.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:52 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:

A season ending event at Trump Miami.


There's actually two events on the LIV schedule that are at Tr*mp courses, Doral and at Bedminster (who famously lost the 2022 PGA Championship to Southern Hills CC after Jan 6th last year).

scbriml wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
These players should face a lifetime ban of any tours inside the USA.


That would almost certainly be ruled illegal restraint of trade in a court of law. Which is why even repeat drug cheats don't get life bans.


It's important to note, especially when hewing the ethics of Saudi Arabia versus the ethics of the USA/China, that the LIV tour is 100% funded by the Saudi government as there are no apparent corporate sponsors nor big deal media contracts, two things that are inherently essential if you want to promise hundreds of millions of dollars in prize money and simultaneously want to be economically viable. The PGATour, though sometimes the beneficiary of generous tax laws and occasional public subsidies, does not depend on government funding to be sustainable and operates independent of any federal or local government agency. As for China, there is no major push by the Chinese government to get involved in golf. There is only one major event being that supposedly is being held in China, and that's a World Golf Championship in Shanghai, which is financially backed by HSBC and not the Chinese government. I say supposedly because it hasn't been contested the last two years due to COVID, and though it's on the fall schedule later this year, not a sure thing it will happen yet for both COVID and non COVID reasons.

LabQuest wrote:
Who's actually watching the tour? Where can you even watch it live? Youtube? What a joke. These players should face a lifetime ban of any tours inside the USA.


To be fair, the stream is also happening on the Tour's Facebook page and company website, but I doubt that will dramatically alter the number of streams the tournament receives.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been following the development of this Tour very closely for the last two years, in large part thanks to the crew at the No Laying Up podcast, who have been reporting and on top of all the details that have emerged since the rumors began to swirl.

Then genesis behind this breakaway tour began with a man named Andy Gardiner, a UK based lawyer and golf enthusiast. He originally conceived of the idea of having an F1 style team/individual competition hybrid and sought to work with the existing major tours (PGATour, European [since renamed DP World] Tour, and Asian Tour) and initially had the Saudis included in the development conversation. The idea was named the PGL - the Premier Golf League. About a year ago, the Saudis decided they wanted out of the PGL and decided they wanted to go on their own. They then formed the SGL (Super [Saudi] Golf League), which has since been renamed LIV golf (named for the Roman numeral of 54, which highlights that these are merely 54 hole events). To this day, Andy Gardiner is still confident the PGL can happen, and wants to work as a partner, not adversary, to the current major tours but has so far not been invited to the discussion table. To the best of my knowledge, the SGL has never sought a partnership with any of the major tours in development except for the Asian Tour, whom the Saudis bought a controlling stake in. IIRC, the players competing in the LIV events are obligated to play a few of the Asian Tour events as part of the package deal.



What's been the most frustrating thing about all of this is the splintering of major pro golf this will cause. And moreso that the PGATour is a heavily flawed protagonist who allowed the breakaway tour to happen. Reference this tweet by golf reporter Dylan Dethier:

https://twitter.com/dylan_dethier/statu ... hNIur71Y0g

The game of golf has grown a lot since Tiger Woods became a pro, but you could argue that no element of golf experienced more exponential growth than the PGATour, who since Tiger turned pro, has bought the entirety of the Canadian Tour (simultaneously stripping that tour of any national identity it used to have as well as much of its value, turning it into a glorified mini tour), started the PGATour LatinoAmerica (which has also struggled to get an identity beyond being a glorified mini tour), and started PGATour China (which has yet to have any identity). The Korn Ferry Tour (1991) and PGATour Champions (1982) both existed before Tiger turned pro and are the only other tours under the umbrella to get any kind of media attention and following. The product has become stale, too many tournaments that all look too similar and courses that get blander and blander each year. The majors are still going strong, but they are each operated by a different organization and the PGATour has no say in the running of those events. They did need some kind of wake up call that they were resting on their laurels too much, but LIV is the wrong organization to do it.

It's also important to remember that the PGATour itself was founded in 1969 as a breakaway organization from the PGA of America when tournament golf became too big of a property for the PGA to effectively manage.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:12 pm

luckyone wrote:
Private business can do what they want, so the line goes. If I understand it correctly, the actual legal justification is that there are co-occurring events between the two tours, which according to PGA regs isn't allowed. Everything else is just noise. The players get to make the choice and they have to accept any repercussions.


Being a membership organization, the PGATour has conditions of membership. The exact rule is that no player is allowed to compete in another US based event that is contested at the same time as an official event. The players are allowed to apply for releases to play up to 3 international events a year that the Tour must approve. Generally, if those are European (DP World) Tour or Asian Tour events, those are almost always approved, as the Tour has a healthy relationship with each and doesn't view those tours as threats to itself. Given that the LIV Tour was founded in hostility towards the PGATour and have been negotiating behind the scenes to poach players away from the PGATour, releases to play in the LIV events were rejected, thus providing the justification to suspend memberships of the competing players.
 
luckyone
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:13 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Private business can do what they want, so the line goes. If I understand it correctly, the actual legal justification is that there are co-occurring events between the two tours, which according to PGA regs isn't allowed. Everything else is just noise. The players get to make the choice and they have to accept any repercussions.


Being a membership organization, the PGATour has conditions of membership. The exact rule is that no player is allowed to compete in another US based event that is contested at the same time as an official event. The players are allowed to apply for releases to play up to 3 international events a year that the Tour must approve. Generally, if those are European (DP World) Tour or Asian Tour events, those are almost always approved, as the Tour has a healthy relationship with each and doesn't view those tours as threats to itself. Given that the LIV Tour was founded in hostility towards the PGATour and have been negotiating behind the scenes to poach players away from the PGATour, releases to play in the LIV events were rejected, thus providing the justification to suspend memberships of the competing players.

I believe the issue also was it was five events, more than the three potentially permitted.
 
bpatus297
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:17 pm

luckyone wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Private business can do what they want, so the line goes. If I understand it correctly, the actual legal justification is that there are co-occurring events between the two tours, which according to PGA regs isn't allowed. Everything else is just noise. The players get to make the choice and they have to accept any repercussions.


Being a membership organization, the PGATour has conditions of membership. The exact rule is that no player is allowed to compete in another US based event that is contested at the same time as an official event. The players are allowed to apply for releases to play up to 3 international events a year that the Tour must approve. Generally, if those are European (DP World) Tour or Asian Tour events, those are almost always approved, as the Tour has a healthy relationship with each and doesn't view those tours as threats to itself. Given that the LIV Tour was founded in hostility towards the PGATour and have been negotiating behind the scenes to poach players away from the PGATour, releases to play in the LIV events were rejected, thus providing the justification to suspend memberships of the competing players.

I believe the issue also was it was five events, more than the three potentially permitted.


This will be interesting to watch. The guaranteed check may draw some lower level players and rising young armatures away. If some of those young players end up being really good, this could gain some traction. The very rigid PGA of America and PGA Tour might be forced to embrace some new ideas in order to combat this. I am curious to watch some the the LIV formats, particularly how the 54 holes works out.
 
luckyone
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:19 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:

Being a membership organization, the PGATour has conditions of membership. The exact rule is that no player is allowed to compete in another US based event that is contested at the same time as an official event. The players are allowed to apply for releases to play up to 3 international events a year that the Tour must approve. Generally, if those are European (DP World) Tour or Asian Tour events, those are almost always approved, as the Tour has a healthy relationship with each and doesn't view those tours as threats to itself. Given that the LIV Tour was founded in hostility towards the PGATour and have been negotiating behind the scenes to poach players away from the PGATour, releases to play in the LIV events were rejected, thus providing the justification to suspend memberships of the competing players.

I believe the issue also was it was five events, more than the three potentially permitted.


This will be interesting to watch. The guaranteed check may draw some lower level players and rising young armatures away. If some of those young players end up being really good, this could gain some traction.

It could. It also could be a disincentive to long term player development as they cash out and get comfy.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:23 pm

luckyone wrote:
I believe the issue also was it was five events, more than the three potentially permitted.


Only 3 of the 8 tournaments scheduled in 2022 are outside the USA. The players who were negotiating behind the scenes (Mickelson, and the rumored Bryson DeChambeau, Lee Westwood) signed NDAs that did not allow them to talk publicly about it. There was no coordination with the PGATour on anything relating to starting up this tour, and Greg Norman, the CEO of LIV Golf, has tried to form a breakaway tour in the past and has never hidden his disdain for the PGATour. It's a hostile league and there's no reason for the PGATour to authorize such releases to play.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:23 pm

The PGA tour, as well as LIV, and all the players on the tours are all about MONEY. Nothing else. Human rights is just being used to divert attention.
When you and a friend play 18 holes on the weekend, you are doing it for fun. At a tour level, money is what drives people, along with the sponsorship, the TV rights and everything else.
Golf at the professional level is just another sport that has been corrupted by people's desire to get rich.
 
bpatus297
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:26 pm

luckyone wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
I believe the issue also was it was five events, more than the three potentially permitted.


This will be interesting to watch. The guaranteed check may draw some lower level players and rising young armatures away. If some of those young players end up being really good, this could gain some traction.

It could. It also could be a disincentive to long term player development as they cash out and get comfy.


It could, but I think there are too many PGA Tour big names playing for the PGA Tour to ignore. The team aspect and shotgun start are interesting. Maybe the PGA could incorporate some of these ideas into specific events. I think the WGC Match Play and other events are proving that golf fans like to watch events other than the traditional 72 hole stroke play with a cut at 36 holes.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:28 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
This will be interesting to watch. The guaranteed check may draw some lower level players and rising young armatures away. If some of those young players end up being really good, this could gain some traction. The very rigid PGA of America and PGA Tour might be forced to embrace some new ideas in order to combat this. I am curious to watch some the the LIV formats, particularly how the 54 holes works out.


I understand why some of the lesser pros would chase such a huge pipe dream, but anyone with an ounce of rational thought should know that this economic model is not sustainable and the large sums of money promised won't always be there. There haven't been many surprises amongst those who have participated, as they are mostly aging veterans who have maxed out their potential on the PGATour. DJ was the only "star" so to speak who could have been considered still rising, but us golf fans know that Dustin Johnson is an idiot who doesn't think much beyond putting on clean underwear each day (his idiocy is primarily one of the reasons he's so good as golf - he has the advantage of not letting his brain get in the way). Talor Gooch was probably the biggest surprise, as he just won his first event back in November and his stock as a PGATour player was rising. He probably had the most to lose out of anyone in the field.
 
bpatus297
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:33 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
This will be interesting to watch. The guaranteed check may draw some lower level players and rising young armatures away. If some of those young players end up being really good, this could gain some traction. The very rigid PGA of America and PGA Tour might be forced to embrace some new ideas in order to combat this. I am curious to watch some the the LIV formats, particularly how the 54 holes works out.


I understand why some of the lesser pros would chase such a huge pipe dream, but anyone with an ounce of rational thought should know that this economic model is not sustainable and the large sums of money promised won't always be there. There haven't been many surprises amongst those who have participated, as they are mostly aging veterans who have maxed out their potential on the PGATour. DJ was the only "star" so to speak who could have been considered still rising, but us golf fans know that Dustin Johnson is an idiot who doesn't think much beyond putting on clean underwear each day (his idiocy is primarily one of the reasons he's so good as golf - he has the advantage of not letting his brain get in the way). Talor Gooch was probably the biggest surprise, as he just won his first event back in November and his stock as a PGATour player was rising. He probably had the most to lose out of anyone in the field.


Bryce DeChmbeau singed up for LIV. The others might not be at the top of their game, but Sergio Garcia, Lefty, DJ, etc. are pretty big draws. There are a bunch of mid-level draws as well. I don't think it can be ignored. As far as funding, the Saudis have a lot of money, and maybe they plan on bringing in sponsors when if it takes hold.
 
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c933103
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:06 pm

Quick Googling show that the preexisting PGA tour have announced this policy beforehand, and there are also players who resigned from PGA to join this LIV. It make no sense for the suspended players to claim it make no sense.
 
NIKV69
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:47 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
The PGA tour, as well as LIV, and all the players on the tours are all about MONEY. Nothing else. Human rights is just being used to divert attention.
When you and a friend play 18 holes on the weekend, you are doing it for fun. At a tour level, money is what drives people, along with the sponsorship, the TV rights and everything else.
Golf at the professional level is just another sport that has been corrupted by people's desire to get rich.


Amen so they should be allowed to play wherever they want. I mean LeBron loves China why can't DJ play for the Saudis?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:08 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
The PGA tour, as well as LIV, and all the players on the tours are all about MONEY. Nothing else. Human rights is just being used to divert attention.
When you and a friend play 18 holes on the weekend, you are doing it for fun. At a tour level, money is what drives people, along with the sponsorship, the TV rights and everything else.
Golf at the professional level is just another sport that has been corrupted by people's desire to get rich.


Amen so they should be allowed to play wherever they want. I mean LeBron loves China why can't DJ play for the Saudis?


Nobody's saying they can't - hello? It just means they will be judged by other organizations for that association with KSA.
 
luckyone
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:55 am

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
The PGA tour, as well as LIV, and all the players on the tours are all about MONEY. Nothing else. Human rights is just being used to divert attention.
When you and a friend play 18 holes on the weekend, you are doing it for fun. At a tour level, money is what drives people, along with the sponsorship, the TV rights and everything else.
Golf at the professional level is just another sport that has been corrupted by people's desire to get rich.


Amen so they should be allowed to play wherever they want. I mean LeBron loves China why can't DJ play for the Saudis?


Nobody's saying they can't - hello? It just means they will be judged by other organizations for that association with KSA.

Forget KSA judgment. PGA has every legal ground to determine their membership requirements. It's that simple. If someone doesn't like it, they can go watch the LIV.
 
889091
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:28 am

Capitalism at its best...and worst.

Wonder if LIV were to ever get as big as the PGA - will they reciprocate and ban LIV players who join the PGA....?
 
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scbriml
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:03 am

luckyone wrote:
PGA has every legal ground to determine their membership requirements. It's that simple. If someone doesn't like it, they can go watch the LIV.


Which has been fine, but it hasn't been challenged on the course or in a court of law. If it is challenged in court, the PGA will very likely lose.
 
GDB
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:57 am

Don't 'breakaway' tournaments in major sports have a mixed history? Kerry Packer and Cricket come to mind.
Still, on this, I'm with Furio;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilzFXX8G6B4
 
LittleFokker
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:22 pm

889091 wrote:
Capitalism at its best...and worst.

Wonder if LIV were to ever get as big as the PGA - will they reciprocate and ban LIV players who join the PGA....?


Nothing to ponder, there is no one else as stupid as the Saudis willing to grossly overpay for mid tier talent with nary a care at all for a revenue structure.

In fact, this isn't even capitalism, because in capitalism there needs to be a path to profitably. With LIV Golf, there is no path, this is just throwing stupid amounts of money around in the name of sportswashing and mucking up the waters.
 
luckyone
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:02 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
889091 wrote:
Capitalism at its best...and worst.

Wonder if LIV were to ever get as big as the PGA - will they reciprocate and ban LIV players who join the PGA....?


Nothing to ponder, there is no one else as stupid as the Saudis willing to grossly overpay for mid tier talent with nary a care at all for a revenue structure.

In fact, this isn't even capitalism, because in capitalism there needs to be a path to profitably. With LIV Golf, there is no path, this is just throwing stupid amounts of money around in the name of sportswashing and mucking up the waters.

While you may be right about player quality, this is part of an overall effort by the Saudis to lessen their economic future on oil. They know that their reserves won't last forever, and they've been making a concerted effort to buy friends and consideration. Only in the past three years they've started issuing tourist visas (they've never been particularly restrictive about letting their citizens out, but historically letting others in was a different ball of wax), they've done a massive development in Mecca that is geared beyond just Haj accommodations, and they're inching toward playing nice with Israel.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:29 pm

The Herd with Colin Cowherd as he reacts to the PGA Tour suspending 17 players, including Phil Jackson, Dustin Johnson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wKZBRSMz4
 
NIKV69
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:26 am

Aaron747 wrote:

Nobody's saying they can't - hello? It just means they will be judged by other organizations for that association with KSA.


The PGA tour is just screwing themselves. The more big names flee the more marginalized they become. Once DJ fled it should have been a wake up call.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:59 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Nobody's saying they can't - hello? It just means they will be judged by other organizations for that association with KSA.


The PGA tour is just screwing themselves. The more big names flee the more marginalized they become. Once DJ fled it should have been a wake up call.


Business links with KSA is Americans screwing themselves...so worse in the big picture. Either way that's for the PGA board to decide internally.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:46 pm

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34 ... plications

Great summary by Kevin Van Valkenburg, who attended and covered the event for ESPN. I will fess to watching some of the online stream just to see if it generated any kind of emotion in me, and the biggest takeaway was just sadness. I'm sad that there's a country with enough wealth that they can just throw stupid amounts of money around to corrupt the morals of so many people. I'm sad that the PGATour has feckless leadership that is far more interested in pleasing sponsors than putting out a good product for the fans. I'm sad at all the bad faith arguments made in defense of the Saudis, arguments that aren't grounded in reality. I'm sad that the product the Saudis put out, while professional and better than I was expecting, was stale and lifeless (there are no stakes to these tournaments besides the money). Charl Schwartzl, former Masters champion, just won, and what does that mean? Does he rank this higher than his Masters win, since he won almost triple what he won in prize money than he did in 2011?

Ultimately, professional golf is going to be harmed by having a fractured product where one organization has bottomless products and doesn't care about financial viability, and everyone else has limited funds and an obligation to have fiscal responsibility. I fear what kind of impact a weaker professional game will have on the recreational aspect to golf.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:42 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It totally makes sense - taking blood money from KSA is being rightfully opposed by PGA.

https://twitter.com/austintylerro/statu ... tI4mpX72Kw


I laugh at the selective outrage!!!!!

NBA in China... FIFA players going to the highest bidder...every time, and NO ONE cares!!!


My outrage is not selective. I have had a crimp in the neck about KSA since 2001. China is many things but it is not a two-faced regime that makes nice with Israel on one hand while perenially funding terror and Islamist schools with the other.


I've never figured out the US Right Wing love affair with the KSA.

I thought they were the party of anti-Sharia and low gas prices? :rotfl:
 
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Tugger
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:37 pm

SEAorPWM wrote:
I've never figured out the US Right Wing love affair with the KSA.

I thought they were the party of anti-Sharia and low gas prices? :rotfl:

Well it's simple, KSA leadership is not afraid to stand up to pansy-assed progressives and the LGBTQ+Alphabet crowd or the press (they'll even kill 'em if they need to). They also keep woman in their place and hold religion as a defining value in their society. Pretty simple.

Tugg
 
ObadiahPlainman
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:00 pm

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34 ... king-point

Really good longform piece on ESPN about LIV and the PGA. Lot of issues at play here, really.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:33 pm

Tugger wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
I've never figured out the US Right Wing love affair with the KSA.

I thought they were the party of anti-Sharia and low gas prices? :rotfl:

Well it's simple, KSA leadership is not afraid to stand up to pansy-assed progressives and the LGBTQ+Alphabet crowd or the press (they'll even kill 'em if they need to). They also keep woman in their place and hold religion as a defining value in their society. Pretty simple.

Tugg


I've never understood kissing up to Iran with "deals." They are not our friend, at all. But the KSA IS our friend on some issues. When I go to bed at night, I do not lose sleep over the KSA.
 
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Tugger
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:40 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
I've never figured out the US Right Wing love affair with the KSA.

I thought they were the party of anti-Sharia and low gas prices? :rotfl:

Well it's simple, KSA leadership is not afraid to stand up to pansy-assed progressives and the LGBTQ+Alphabet crowd or the press (they'll even kill 'em if they need to). They also keep woman in their place and hold religion as a defining value in their society. Pretty simple.

Tugg


I've never understood kissing up to Iran with "deals." They are not our friend, at all. But the KSA IS our friend on some issues. When I go to bed at night, I do not lose sleep over the KSA.

I get that you are not worried about them and are more worried about a nuclear armed Iran, yet the KSA is known to fund an extremist Islamic ideology (around the globe) and is where the majority of the 9/11 terrorists came from.

They ain't no better really. They are just willing to play nice with the west in exchange for our money, while Iran has the big bad Ayatollah and IRG running things.

Tugg
 
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Aesma
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:43 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tugger wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
I've never figured out the US Right Wing love affair with the KSA.

I thought they were the party of anti-Sharia and low gas prices? :rotfl:

Well it's simple, KSA leadership is not afraid to stand up to pansy-assed progressives and the LGBTQ+Alphabet crowd or the press (they'll even kill 'em if they need to). They also keep woman in their place and hold religion as a defining value in their society. Pretty simple.

Tugg


I've never understood kissing up to Iran with "deals." They are not our friend, at all. But the KSA IS our friend on some issues. When I go to bed at night, I do not lose sleep over the KSA.


Iran is being sanctioned, the deal is just to remove the sanctions. If you're fine with KSA, you should be extra fine with Iran.
 
Bricktop
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:13 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Of course. I should have checked the LIV schedule. The Saudi government will bribe anyone, especially an ex-President in Trump who supported them despite their lack of human rights. I would love to see a few 100 protesting outside the gates of the Trump (as well as other) event sites.

Interesting selective analysis of US foreign policy for the last 60 years. EVERY PRESIDENT has sucked up to the Saudis. I defy you to tell me one who hasn't.
 
johns624
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:23 pm

I'm not worried about Iran, KSA, Norks or Russia. The PRC is the only country that I worry about.
 
Bricktop
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
I've never figured out the US Right Wing love affair with the KSA.

I thought they were the party of anti-Sharia and low gas prices? :rotfl:

Well it's simple, KSA leadership is not afraid to stand up to pansy-assed progressives and the LGBTQ+Alphabet crowd or the press (they'll even kill 'em if they need to). They also keep woman in their place and hold religion as a defining value in their society. Pretty simple.

Tugg

Well I suppose Biden won't go cap in hand to the pariah KSA next month for all those reasons you cite. Principles! And of course to get back to sports, petrodollars and human rights, I am sure all those wonderful liberal democrat European countries (and the USA) will not go to Qatar and boycott the FIFA World Cup too. None of us should hold our breath on that either.

To heck with the golfers who grab the Saudi money. Or the NBA hypocrites who slurp up to China. None of them give two poops about human rights, even as they wear their Pride symbols. Let's pretend we care while we cash blood-soaked checks.
 
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Tugger
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:30 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Tugger wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
I've never figured out the US Right Wing love affair with the KSA.

I thought they were the party of anti-Sharia and low gas prices? :rotfl:

Well it's simple, KSA leadership is not afraid to stand up to pansy-assed progressives and the LGBTQ+Alphabet crowd or the press (they'll even kill 'em if they need to). They also keep woman in their place and hold religion as a defining value in their society. Pretty simple.

Tugg

Well I suppose Biden won't go cap in hand to the pariah KSA next month for all those reasons you cite. Principles! And of course to get back to sports, petrodollars and human rights, I am sure all those wonderful liberal democrat European countries (and the USA) will not go to Qatar and boycott the FIFA World Cup too. None of us should hold our breath on that either.

To heck with the golfers who grab the Saudi money. Or the NBA hypocrites who slurp up to China. None of them give two poops about human rights, even as they wear their Pride symbols. Let's pretend we care while we cash blood-soaked checks.

Yup. Basically.

Tugg
 
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ER757
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:16 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34086669/i-see-good-solution-anyone-how-professional-golf-arrived-breaking-point

Really good longform piece on ESPN about LIV and the PGA. Lot of issues at play here, really.

Good piece - really shows this is a can of worms. Will be interesting to watch how this plays out
 
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scbriml
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:38 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
When I go to bed at night, I do not lose sleep over the KSA.


Do you really lose sleep over Iran?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
When I go to bed at night, I do not lose sleep over the KSA.


Do you really lose sleep over Iran?


I do not lose sleep over Iran.
 
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scbriml
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:36 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
scbriml wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
When I go to bed at night, I do not lose sleep over the KSA.


Do you really lose sleep over Iran?


I do not lose sleep over Iran.


Fine, but it seemed to be a reasonable assumption given your statements.
 
ObadiahPlainman
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:00 pm

ER757 wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34086669/i-see-good-solution-anyone-how-professional-golf-arrived-breaking-point

Really good longform piece on ESPN about LIV and the PGA. Lot of issues at play here, really.

Good piece - really shows this is a can of worms. Will be interesting to watch how this plays out


Indeed. And the PGA has really been ham-handed and clumsy in how they've handled this. It makes them look very insecure about having a competitive league pop up.

I mean, that gasbag Brandel Chamblee said on the Golf Channel out loud that he thinks Mickelson and and Norman should be removed from the golf Hall of Fame...I mean, that's crazy talk and the zealotry by some of the hidebound golf purists is almost laughable, as is their hypocrisy about clutching their pearls about Saudi Arabia's human rights record.
 
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ER757
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Re: LIV Golf Players Denounce Their PGA Tour Suspensions: 'It Makes No Sense.'

Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:11 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
ER757 wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34086669/i-see-good-solution-anyone-how-professional-golf-arrived-breaking-point

Really good longform piece on ESPN about LIV and the PGA. Lot of issues at play here, really.

Good piece - really shows this is a can of worms. Will be interesting to watch how this plays out


Indeed. And the PGA has really been ham-handed and clumsy in how they've handled this. It makes them look very insecure about having a competitive league pop up.

I mean, that gasbag Brandel Chamblee said on the Golf Channel out loud that he thinks Mickelson and and Norman should be removed from the golf Hall of Fame...I mean, that's crazy talk and the zealotry by some of the hidebound golf purists is almost laughable, as is their hypocrisy about clutching their pearls about Saudi Arabia's human rights record.

I saw Chamblee's rant on Golf Central and yeah, he's quite full of manure. I thought the other gentleman (sorry I don't recall his name) put it more realistically - that the PGA will have to put their big stars under contract now and pay them what amount to appearance fees to show up at x amount of events per year. That's pretty much what LIV does. As an analogy, back when there was the AFL and NFL, a player couldn't say he's playing for the Buffalo Bills this week but will play for the Chicago Bears the week after. That's because he was under contract to the Bills, I think that's where golf may be headed

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