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af773atmsp
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Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:23 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/us/misso ... D5-fspoZ4o

Multiple fatalities and at least 50 injured. Photos show the dump truck is completely destroyed, and most or all of the train is overturned.
 
Newark727
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:27 pm

Well that's pretty terrifying. Hard to tell what the grade crossing looked like before the crash - if there were any barricades or markings.
 
johns624
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:10 pm

It looks like the truck driver may have been one of the fatalities. If not, he has a lot of explaining to do.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:12 pm

This occurred in a very rural area, it appears to be a crossing without any warning signals or crossing gates. At least 3 dead including the truck driver. This happened while the train appeared to be at high speed, the truck was totally destroyed. All the cars and both engines of the train derailed an laid on its side. The link has a drone over the site of the crash.
https://apnews.com/article/amtrak-derai ... 9b11c2fb31
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:06 am

Level crossings will always be the bane of railways everywhere as the world will never run out of people who don't know how to safely drive across them.

That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:16 am

Francoflier wrote:
Level crossings will always be the bane of railways everywhere as the world will never run out of people who don't know how to safely drive across them.

That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.


The "where possible" is of course the issue in sparsely populated states and countries with irregular higher speed services.

RIP all involved.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:03 am

Francoflier wrote:
That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.


I can think of over a hundred grade crossings along Brightline's route in Florida that should be eliminated. All the signs, bells, horns, and lights in the world don't stop Florida drivers from getting into the path of one of those higher speed trains.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:41 am

How do you eliminate the level crossings? Tunnels? Overpasses?
 
Kent350787
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:47 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
How do you eliminate the level crossings? Tunnels? Overpasses?


Either. Its not inexpensive along a lengthy route. Europe invested heavily late last century with the introduction of high speed rail.

My country has uncontrolled crossings across routes in large sparsely populated areas. But even in the city of Melbourne (pop 5 million) it has been an expensive decade long exercise to replace controlled level crossings.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:48 am

Honestly though, as many Amtrak trains that have been derailed by trucks, dump trucks, you would think there be a push to improve rail crossings. Cameras at railroad crossings that would send videos to trains approaching them, how hard would that be?
 
Newark727
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
How do you eliminate the level crossings? Tunnels? Overpasses?


Where I used to live in New Jersey, they mostly put the tracks up on an embankment and ran the streets under it - riding the train, you kinda looked down into peoples' back yards. In a more recent project in Los Angeles they basically moved the entire triple-tracked railroad right-of-way into a giant trench below street level from downtown to the Long Beach harbor.
 
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c933103
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:44 am

SRQLOT wrote:
Honestly though, as many Amtrak trains that have been derailed by trucks, dump trucks, you would think there be a push to improve rail crossings. Cameras at railroad crossings that would send videos to trains approaching them, how hard would that be?

Cost of camera installation
Cost of power supply
Cost of a wireless network that will send signal out of the camera
Cost of a receiver on train, and a system that display the signal onboard whenever the train get close

Duplicate this cost to every at grade crossing across the US, and duplicate the system cost to every trains including freight trains in the US.


Naked eyes should be sufficient and call for the train to stop in time in most cases when speed of the train is below 79mph aka current US regulatory requirement for in cabin signaling according to my memory?
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:07 am

c933103 wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Honestly though, as many Amtrak trains that have been derailed by trucks, dump trucks, you would think there be a push to improve rail crossings. Cameras at railroad crossings that would send videos to trains approaching them, how hard would that be?

Cost of camera installation
Cost of power supply
Cost of a wireless network that will send signal out of the camera
Cost of a receiver on train, and a system that display the signal onboard whenever the train get close

Duplicate this cost to every at grade crossing across the US, and duplicate the system cost to every trains including freight trains in the US.


Naked eyes should be sufficient and call for the train to stop in time in most cases when speed of the train is below 79mph aka current US regulatory requirement for in cabin signaling according to my memory?


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/l ... 54ba4ca508

Just to show the U S isn't the only country with problems on it's rail lines.

Seriously, what is the stopping distance of some of these massive freight trains that operate ? Can they stop within sight range in daytime - what speed do they operate at night ?
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:11 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.


I can think of over a hundred grade crossings along Brightline's route in Florida that should be eliminated. All the signs, bells, horns, and lights in the world don't stop Florida drivers from getting into the path of one of those higher speed trains.


Well, the Florida Man certainly adds a layer of complexity to the issue in that particular case...
 
johns624
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:18 pm

c933103 wrote:

Naked eyes should be sufficient and call for the train to stop in time in most cases when speed of the train is below 79mph aka current US regulatory requirement for in cabin signaling according to my memory?
A train can take well over a thousand yards to stop. The problem is that you can't do emergency braking every time a car "might" be on the tracks by the time that you reach them. You'd never get to your destination.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:56 pm

Since I was young who grew up with parents who came from a railroad hub town, train crossings in my hometown, and a busy one I cross a number of times every week, I have great respect for RR crossings, even with full lights and gates. I would never go through a crossing, even walking, when gates are down. Even if gates are not down, I slow down, look and listen. Don't even think of 'beating the train', that will be a death sentence. I would also note that with this crash, like many others, the engineer could be killed, seriously injured and if lived through it, be traumatized for the rest of their lives.
 
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c933103
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:16 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
c933103 wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Honestly though, as many Amtrak trains that have been derailed by trucks, dump trucks, you would think there be a push to improve rail crossings. Cameras at railroad crossings that would send videos to trains approaching them, how hard would that be?

Cost of camera installation
Cost of power supply
Cost of a wireless network that will send signal out of the camera
Cost of a receiver on train, and a system that display the signal onboard whenever the train get close

Duplicate this cost to every at grade crossing across the US, and duplicate the system cost to every trains including freight trains in the US.


Naked eyes should be sufficient and call for the train to stop in time in most cases when speed of the train is below 79mph aka current US regulatory requirement for in cabin signaling according to my memory?


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/l ... 54ba4ca508

Just to show the U S isn't the only country with problems on it's rail lines.

Seriously, what is the stopping distance of some of these massive freight trains that operate ? Can they stop within sight range in daytime - what speed do they operate at night ?

US is clearly not the only country with level crossing problem but your example is qrong example. The article linked is about an already laid signaling system being compromised which is not related to the situation in the US here.
 
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c933103
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:22 pm

johns624 wrote:
c933103 wrote:

Naked eyes should be sufficient and call for the train to stop in time in most cases when speed of the train is below 79mph aka current US regulatory requirement for in cabin signaling according to my memory?
A train can take well over a thousand yards to stop. The problem is that you can't do emergency braking every time a car "might" be on the tracks by the time that you reach them. You'd never get to your destination.

My understanding is they are required to stop whenever any obscurion be observed, as they could be a hazard to anyone onboard the train.
Delays are better than derailment.
 
johns624
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:24 pm

c933103 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
c933103 wrote:

Naked eyes should be sufficient and call for the train to stop in time in most cases when speed of the train is below 79mph aka current US regulatory requirement for in cabin signaling according to my memory?
A train can take well over a thousand yards to stop. The problem is that you can't do emergency braking every time a car "might" be on the tracks by the time that you reach them. You'd never get to your destination.

My understanding is they are required to stop whenever any obscurion be observed, as they could be a hazard to anyone onboard the train.
Delays are better than derailment.
Emergency brake applications aren't without their own hazards.
 
Lootess
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:29 pm

The crossing in-question was already on the Missouri improvement list to add a gate.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:36 pm

A farmer familiar with the railroad crossing hoped changes would be made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ksZSsMFfnA

You can briefly see what the crossing looks like in the video. Just a crossbuck sign and possibly also a stop sign. Perhaps the truck driver stopped at the crossing and saw the train coming but assumed they could get across the tracks in time.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:25 pm

c933103 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
c933103 wrote:

Naked eyes should be sufficient and call for the train to stop in time in most cases when speed of the train is below 79mph aka current US regulatory requirement for in cabin signaling according to my memory?
A train can take well over a thousand yards to stop. The problem is that you can't do emergency braking every time a car "might" be on the tracks by the time that you reach them. You'd never get to your destination.

My understanding is they are required to stop whenever any obscurion be observed, as they could be a hazard to anyone onboard the train.
Delays are better than derailment.


YT has loads of videos of freights “in emergency braking” crashing into trucks, cars, even a plane. The sight lines are not great enough for a train driver to see, react and stop the train prior to impact at many crossings.
 
FGITD
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

YT has loads of videos of freights “in emergency braking” crashing into trucks, cars, even a plane. The sight lines are not great enough for a train driver to see, react and stop the train prior to impact at many crossings.


Even with a decent sight line it’s still not great given that whatever the obstruction is, it is likely to be able to move away faster than the train can slow. As mentioned, I’m sure if every train emergency stopped for a possible obstruction they’d never get anywhere.

I always wondered what the insurer thought of the plane incident. Bet the call from the engineer to the dispatcher was a good one too. “You’re a train…how did you hit a plane?!”
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:33 pm

What would be a cheaper option other then cameras?

People already disregard railroad crossing arms and lights and signs. People try to turn onto tracks and get stuck. So it doesn’t matter if the arms go down. Lifting all the tracks on a viaduct improbable at this point due to cost.

On the other side, how much does Amtrak spend on fixing all the locomotives, and derailed cars?
 
petertenthije
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:07 am

SRQLOT wrote:
What would be a cheaper option other then cameras?

Let Darwin sort it out? :)
 
ltbewr
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:34 pm

I wonder if the truck had stopped before the crossing, believed they had enough time to cross but as started to cross stalled, became unmovable as the train approached.
 
af773atmsp
Topic Author
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:07 am

petertenthije wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
What would be a cheaper option other then cameras?

Let Darwin sort it out? :)


If we tried that there would be a lot more crashes like the one that started this thread.
 
cpd
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:10 am

Francoflier wrote:
Level crossings will always be the bane of railways everywhere as the world will never run out of people who don't know how to safely drive across them.

That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.


I'm guessing the only way is to put a bridge over the top of the tracks or tunnel beneath. Which one is easier of the two?

Or do we trust that the crossing gates will be always reliable, people won't try to run through them or deliberately damage them.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:59 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I wonder if the truck had stopped before the crossing, believed they had enough time to cross but as started to cross stalled, became unmovable as the train approached.


Yup, that's always a possibility.

A similar accident happened in the old country a few years ago. A road maintenance dump truck truck loaded with gravel/salt mixture had stalled on a crossing. The driver wasn't able to start the engine. The truck was hit by an approaching express train. The train's engineer did not survive. He had no chance, the engineers are sitting upfront in electric locos. Link in Slovak only: https://www1.pluska.sk/krimi/vlak-zrazi ... c-neprezil
I have no link for this (inside sources): at the moment the engineer activated the emergency brakes, the train was traveling at 100km/h. It impacted the truck at 97km/h.
 
FlyBoy747
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:17 pm

Simply amazing what humans of all ages can do when put in this horrific situation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/06/29/boy-scout-amtrak-train-derailment/
 
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william
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:30 pm

60-80 trains fast 70 mph intermodal freight trains ply that route between CHI-LA. Communities along the route knows this. If it was not a 90 mph Amtrak train it would have been a high speed Intermodal train hitting this truck. Sadly, we cannot ask the driver why.

As they say, " Don't try to beat a train, because even in a tie you loose".
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:38 pm

cpd wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Level crossings will always be the bane of railways everywhere as the world will never run out of people who don't know how to safely drive across them.

That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.


I'm guessing the only way is to put a bridge over the top of the tracks or tunnel beneath. Which one is easier of the two?

Or do we trust that the crossing gates will be always reliable, people won't try to run through them or deliberately damage them.

Look at Brightline and the Florida drivers. In that case it makes sense to have grade separated crossings.

A bridge or tunnel beneath or even a viaduct will depend on the land. Some will be underpasses some will be overpasses. You kinda need to look at the land and determine which is the easiest and safe to build
 
niagara484
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:39 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
cpd wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Level crossings will always be the bane of railways everywhere as the world will never run out of people who don't know how to safely drive across them.

That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.


I'm guessing the only way is to put a bridge over the top of the tracks or tunnel beneath. Which one is easier of the two?

Or do we trust that the crossing gates will be always reliable, people won't try to run through them or deliberately damage them.

Look at Brightline and the Florida drivers. In that case it makes sense to have grade separated crossings.

A bridge or tunnel beneath or even a viaduct will depend on the land. Some will be underpasses some will be overpasses. You kinda need to look at the land and determine which is the easiest and safe to build


I work in the railroad industry in the US and have a little knowledge of rail/road crossings and the related technology. The cheapest option of course is to close the crossing completely, especially many of these lightly-used rural crossings with just a handful of vehicles a day. But of course that has its own challenges and often faces fierce opposition from local residents. Adding warning devices (gates, flashers, bells, etc) doesn't come cheap, often several hundred thousand dollars per crossing, with the costs funded by local or state governments. Then after the crossing is installed, it's up to the railroad to inspect and maintain it on regular intervals as the crossing operation relies on an electric current sent through the rails to detect the presence of a train. That becomes an ongoing expense for the railroad. And people still run the warning devices because many of us are inherently impatient (i.e., we're human). No train spotted, no risk, so we start across and "BOOM." The Federal Railroad Administration has regulations on the minimum amount of time the crossing warning devices are to be active before a train arrives. In general leaving them active for any longer than really necessary is discouraged because that tends to increase the impatience.

Stopping the train short of the crossing would be great but in many parts of the world, the mass and speed of trains operated would require braking to start well over a minute out from the crossing. We're talking a tremendous amount of kinetic energy to arrest. The vast majority of the time, whatever was obstructing the path of the train will have moved out of the way by the time the train gets there so now you're slowing for no reason. This is the same reason that cameras really wouldn't be effective. By the time it's evident that there's an obstruction at the crossing, it's really too late to prevent the collision.

A total grade separation is preferred but extremely expensive and very difficult to do in built-up areas like South Florida. Every highway crossing in S. Florida would have to be an overpass because of the water table (can't dig underground). The other option would be to elevate the railroad 20-30 feet up in the air for miles on end at tremendous expense (and massive protest from those living nearby). So what do you do in a case like this? Either approach is going to raise a massive stink.

In my profession I'll do everything in my power to make train operation as safe as possible for the railroad and the areas/communities the trains run through. But there is a practical limit as to what can be accomplished with the often limited budgets available (as with many things, it all often comes down to money). Ultimately it falls on a driver or pedestrian to have some sense to exercise caution before starting across tracks. That old "Stop, Look, and Listen" bit that some of you may have heard before always applies. A newer slogan is this:

"See tracks? Think train!"

niagara484
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Amtrak train hits dump truck and derails in Missouri

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:38 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
Honestly though, as many Amtrak trains that have been derailed by trucks, dump trucks, you would think there be a push to improve rail crossings. Cameras at railroad crossings that would send videos to trains approaching them, how hard would that be?

This is a very old video, but this will prove my point. This train crossed several crossings in just under two minutes, including the ones right next to the station. If the train was going faster than this one in the video was, how would you have cameras set up to view every single one of them. This was just under two minutes. If a train was going faster than this one was, it would cross several crossings in a matter of seconds.

https://youtu.be/y0xIdHH6MMI
cpd wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Level crossings will always be the bane of railways everywhere as the world will never run out of people who don't know how to safely drive across them.

That said, relatively high speed passenger rail (60+ mph) should strive to eliminate unguarded/unsignaled crossings, or even level crossings altogether where possible.


I'm guessing the only way is to put a bridge over the top of the tracks or tunnel beneath. Which one is easier of the two?

See above video. Two of the crossings are directly next to the train station, and the video is from a commuter train. How would you do any of this without shutting down the railroad or the roads for an extended period of time.

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