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A101
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Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:25 pm

Here we go again :lol:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... endum-vote


In an attempt to force the issue, Scotland’s first minister said the lord advocate, Dorothy Bain QC, had written to the supreme court in London at her request, asking it to establish whether the Scottish government had the necessary legal powers to stage a consultative referendum on its own.



I cant see why they could not hold a consultive referenda on the matter, but it would be pretty meaningless as it would have no authority to force the UK government granting independence.

It will also be interesting to see how many actually vote in a meaningless referenda when it has no authority to be actually implemented
 
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Aesma
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:19 pm

The Brexit referendum was also consultative.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:50 pm

A101 wrote:
I cant see why they could not hold a consultive referenda on the matter, but it would be pretty meaningless as it would have no authority to force the UK government granting independence.

It will also be interesting to see how many actually vote in a meaningless referenda when it has no authority to be actually implemented


A consultive referenda? :confused:

It sounds somewhat naive to think a consultative referendum would be pointless.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:53 pm

If Catalonia had done the same it could be independant right now.
 
A101
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:52 pm

Aesma wrote:
If Catalonia had done the same it could be independant right now.


Really how?


The Catalan Independence referenda was held in 2017, just like this Scottish referenda it would hold no legal weight to be enacted unlike the referenda in regards to the EU
 
A101
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:55 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
I cant see why they could not hold a consultive referenda on the matter, but it would be pretty meaningless as it would have no authority to force the UK government granting independence.

It will also be interesting to see how many actually vote in a meaningless referenda when it has no authority to be actually implemented


A consultive referenda? :confused:

It sounds somewhat naive to think a consultative referendum would be pointless.



it does if it holds no legal authority

Waste of taxpayers money to hold the referenda without a section 30 order
 
A101
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:21 am

Aesma wrote:
The Brexit referendum was also consultative.


Which had legal authority to be acted on

As I said I think they can hold as many referenda as they like, but its Westminster who holds the reserved powers under the constitution

They only hope is that it puts pressure on Westminster, but if unionists boycott or the greater electorate cant be bothered to actually vote where is the legitimacy in the result

the bigger point is if the UK government gives it no legitimacy simply fact is that is that the UK Parliament has to agree to dissolve the union, they certainly do not hold the number to do that
 
gkirk
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:17 am

Freedom is coming!
No longer will we be tied to a corrupt Westminster.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:07 am

gkirk wrote:
Freedom is coming!
No longer will we be tied to a corrupt Westminster.


Then good riddance. The constant mention of a Scottish independence referendum itself destabilises the union.
 
dc10bhx
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:09 am

A number of questions will need to be answered by the SNP if they are to have any success with this referendum.

This time around they will need to show substantive evidence of how on earth they are going to fund everything that they will be promising in the (unlikely in my opinion) chance that they get the vote they want.

What currency will they be using (and more importantly how will the currency be backed up)? Will they still be offering free medical care and prescriptions? Free education (University)? Will there be an application to re-join the EU?

These points (and many more) will need to be answered to allow the Voters to have as much information to hand as possible.

If memory serves me right the last time this was voted on the main idea was to use the revenue from oil and gas to pay for things, but we all know that this revenue will not last forever especially as we are all being asked to be as green as possible! Whisky and Salmon will only put so much revenue into the coffers, and we have not even started looking at Hadrians Wall becoming a hard border yet!

All in all my opinion is that this will fizzle out as a non-starter especially if Westminster decline to sign and approve the Section 30 order. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are a one trick pony which have run their course (a once in a generation referendum anyone?) who need to realise that the population of Scotland deserve proper representation within the Union.
 
A101
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:31 am

dc10bhx wrote:
A number of questions will need to be answered by the SNP if they are to have any success with this referendum.

This time around they will need to show substantive evidence of how on earth they are going to fund everything that they will be promising in the (unlikely in my opinion) chance that they get the vote they want.

What currency will they be using (and more importantly how will the currency be backed up)? Will they still be offering free medical care and prescriptions? Free education (University)? Will there be an application to re-join the EU?

These points (and many more) will need to be answered to allow the Voters to have as much information to hand as possible.

If memory serves me right the last time this was voted on the main idea was to use the revenue from oil and gas to pay for things, but we all know that this revenue will not last forever especially as we are all being asked to be as green as possible! Whisky and Salmon will only put so much revenue into the coffers, and we have not even started looking at Hadrians Wall becoming a hard border yet!

All in all my opinion is that this will fizzle out as a non-starter especially if Westminster decline to sign and approve the Section 30 order. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are a one trick pony which have run their course (a once in a generation referendum anyone?) who need to realise that the population of Scotland deserve proper representation within the Union.


Yes I agree its not straight forward either for the Scottish if a second vote does get up. The Scottish saw the difficulties in negotiations in regards to debt pensions and a mired other tidbits with the EU. I imagine for the majority that they will want to know prior what the outcome will be first

The thing is that once grant independence and as a sovereign nation they have to wait to join the EU and have will have no trade agreements with the EU whilst at the same time they will not have any trade agreements with the rest of the world. At the same time building up there own currency

I have read that the SNP Deputy Leader John Swinney is quite happy to be leaving the UK internal market which is quite bizarre as he is suggesting that they will have access to a bigger market. if that is the case then when the UK was in the EU the rest of the UK was it biggest trading partner even with the 4 pillars of the EU

The mind boggles, I sometimes wonder if they just look at what they received from the EU in the form of grants but conveniently forget that they will then have to pay the membership themselves

Will the SNP then give the Scottish electorate another referenda about joining the EU
 
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Aesma
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:03 am

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
If Catalonia had done the same it could be independant right now.


Really how?

The Catalan Independence referenda was held in 2017, just like this Scottish referenda it would hold no legal weight to be enacted unlike the referenda in regards to the EU


But in Catalonia there was no precedence on a referendum so they should have done it much more carefully like Scotland is doing now, announce well in advance, let time for all the court cases, let every political opinion be expressed, etc.

The referendum would have been consultative anyway, but at least it could have happened in better circumstances, with people against independence actually voting.

We'll see how the Tories manage this one, but if they're dismissive, or even hostile, it can only help independance win. And I don't see them trying to physically stop the referendum from happening, so engaging in the campaign would be more sensible.

As for what happens next, well, Brexit is a template : win the referendum first, worry about the details later ! But there will be no need to cut ties ASAP, building a plan where Scotland joins the EU single market at the same time as it separates from the UK could be an option.

It's also possible that when that happens, the UK will already have joined the single market back. Some Tories are already talking about this.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:18 am

gkirk wrote:
Freedom is coming!
No longer will we be tied to a corrupt Westminster.


Be careful what you wish for. Just as I believed the UK was stronger for being in the EU, I believe the UK is stronger with Scotland and Scotland is stronger for being part of the UK. Do you really believe Scottish politicians are as pure as the driven snow?

Please explain how Scotland will be better off as an independent country?

How will Scotland fund the £41 billion it currently receives per year from Westminster? To put that in perspective, that's 25% more per capita than England and Wales receive!
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/late ... government
 
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par13del
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:16 pm

If the leader of Scotland wants a vote, Boris should give her a vote, she is using the independence issue as a political football, if the government puts obstacles in place it will only embolden her and create more nationalism, on both sides of the wall. If she has to focus on the issues of how Scotland will get on as an independent country, the debate will get interesting real quick. To get Brexit involved, any bet's on the EU changing course and offering a fast track into the EU, after all, fast track is now working for Ukraine, Finland, and Sweden, so why not Scotland, all points of interest that will come up if the UK attempts to derail the vote versus debating the real issues.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:24 pm

If you want independence (and here it's really something concrete, whereas getting out of the EU wasn't really, the UK was independant anyway), you should be ready to bear some economic consequence.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be mentioned, I'm not advocating for a referendum based on lies like for Brexit (we'll stay in the single market, we'll have our cake, eat it, and have more free cake, we'll have all the cards...), but if the relationship has come to a breaking point, then surely independence will be worth it.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:52 pm

Ideologically, I think Scotland should gain independence, and I probably would in their shoes because *gestures at Westminster*, but one thing I do think they will have to do is have strong answers to tough questions. Unlike Brexit, there will be a large movement against it which is pointing out all the flaws, and Scottish people will be aware of them, more so than Brexit. I also don't think they'll get away with the b******* that Westminster did.

The hard questions to me are:

- Does Scotland meet the criteria for EU membership, if no then how long until they do, if yes, how long until they are reintegrated into the EU?
- What will the border with England look like, will Westminster agree to it, and how damaging would it be if it's a 'hard' border?
- Do they have the finances to support their current level of service for health, education etc? If not, how will they support these services, and will the populace put up with it?
- What currency do they use?
- What does their military situation look like, and will the UK accept them into NATO? (Looking at Faslane base issues here).
- What's their share of the UK debt, and will Westminster agree to it?

They have to have answers to these questions (among others), and if they don't, then Scotland could have a long period of struggle. I do believe that eventually they would get up to speed in the EU, but that could take a while, and whether people will stomach it in the short term is key.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
but if the relationship has come to a breaking point, then surely independence will be worth it.


Many Scots, but certainly not all, love to blame everything on "the English". Independence would force them to face some harsh realities.

As an example, life expectancy in Scotland is the lowest in Western Europe.
https://www.scotsman.com/health/scotlan ... as-2982894

Rather than deal with the issues causing that, Nicola Sturgeon's preference was for the retirement age in Scotland to be lower because it was "unfair that the English draw state pension longer than Scots"!
https://www.accountancydaily.co/snp-cal ... ension-age
Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, said the SNP would use its power in the next parliament to oppose any attempt to push up the state pension age, which is set to increase to 66 between November 2018 and October 2020, and 67 between 2026 and 2028, and which will be linked to life expectancy thereafter.

Sturgeon also suggested that a future Westminster government might even have to exempt Scotland from the changes, on the basis Scots have the lowest life expectancies at birth in the UK. Figures from the Office of National Statistics show Scottish 65-year-old males and females can expect to live shorter lives of 1.2 years and 1.3 years respectively than in the UK as a whole.

Scottish government research suggests an 65 year old woman entitled to a total pension of £160 per week could expect to get around £11,000 less in Scotland than counterparts in the rest of the UK as a whole, and £10,000 less for a man. This pension gap increases to £22,000 for a woman who lives in Glasgow, and to £29,000 for a man living in Glasgow, where life expectancy rates are lowest.
 
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par13del
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
....but if the relationship has come to a breaking point, then surely independence will be worth it.

That's the kicker right, relationship with whom, the people of Scotland and the English, or the political leaders? Did the political leader in Scotland accept the results of the last vote?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:19 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
....but if the relationship has come to a breaking point, then surely independence will be worth it.

That's the kicker right, relationship with whom, the people of Scotland and the English, or the political leaders? Did the political leader in Scotland accept the results of the last vote?


Clearly not, but as a toddler does, keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want! :wink2:

In fairness, circumstances have changed with the UK leaving the EU (against the wishes of Scottish voters), but we haven't really seen the full effects of that yet (especially with the double-whammy of Covid). Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see Scotland leave the UK, but it really is a decision for the Scottish people alone.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:28 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Ideologically, I think Scotland should gain independence, and I probably would in their shoes because *gestures at Westminster*, but one thing I do think they will have to do is have strong answers to tough questions. Unlike Brexit, there will be a large movement against it which is pointing out all the flaws, and Scottish people will be aware of them, more so than Brexit. I also don't think they'll get away with the b******* that Westminster did.

The hard questions to me are:

- Does Scotland meet the criteria for EU membership, if no then how long until they do, if yes, how long until they are reintegrated into the EU?
- What will the border with England look like, will Westminster agree to it, and how damaging would it be if it's a 'hard' border?
- Do they have the finances to support their current level of service for health, education etc? If not, how will they support these services, and will the populace put up with it?
- What currency do they use?
- What does their military situation look like, and will the UK accept them into NATO? (Looking at Faslane base issues here).
- What's their share of the UK debt, and will Westminster agree to it?

They have to have answers to these questions (among others), and if they don't, then Scotland could have a long period of struggle. I do believe that eventually they would get up to speed in the EU, but that could take a while, and whether people will stomach it in the short term is key.


I worked in Aberdeen for the whole of 2014, so witnessed first-hand the independence campaign in all its glory. In debate after debate, these very questions were always left unanswered. Yes, the person questioned would bluster and obfuscate, but never had real answers. Nicola Sturgeon's main debating tactic was to simply shout over anyone with an opposing view.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:48 pm

scbriml wrote:

I worked in Aberdeen for the whole of 2014, so witnessed first-hand the independence campaign in all its glory. In debate after debate, these very questions were always left unanswered. Yes, the person questioned would bluster and obfuscate, but never had real answers. Nicola Sturgeon's main debating tactic was to simply shout over anyone with an opposing view.


It would be harsh to uniquely pin this on the SNP, Sturgeon or the Indy movement, but after our experience with Brexit it would be wise for those voting to learn from the mistakes, see through the bullshit and realise when there is no plan. There's time for them to formulate a plan, but if it it just rainbows, unicorns and being rid of Westminster (mostly), I don't think it'll go through. They have to have answers, otherwise we have another messy, chaotic breakup.
 
Arion640
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:20 pm

It’s all very boring really. We’ve been hearing the same things for years.
 
Arion640
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Ideologically, I think Scotland should gain independence, and I probably would in their shoes because *gestures at Westminster*, but one thing I do think they will have to do is have strong answers to tough questions. Unlike Brexit, there will be a large movement against it which is pointing out all the flaws, and Scottish people will be aware of them, more so than Brexit. I also don't think they'll get away with the b******* that Westminster did.

The hard questions to me are:

- Does Scotland meet the criteria for EU membership, if no then how long until they do, if yes, how long until they are reintegrated into the EU?
- What will the border with England look like, will Westminster agree to it, and how damaging would it be if it's a 'hard' border?
- Do they have the finances to support their current level of service for health, education etc? If not, how will they support these services, and will the populace put up with it?
- What currency do they use?
- What does their military situation look like, and will the UK accept them into NATO? (Looking at Faslane base issues here).
- What's their share of the UK debt, and will Westminster agree to it?

They have to have answers to these questions (among others), and if they don't, then Scotland could have a long period of struggle. I do believe that eventually they would get up to speed in the EU, but that could take a while, and whether people will stomach it in the short term is key.


I worked in Aberdeen for the whole of 2014, so witnessed first-hand the independence campaign in all its glory. In debate after debate, these very questions were always left unanswered. Yes, the person questioned would bluster and obfuscate, but never had real answers. Nicola Sturgeon's main debating tactic was to simply shout over anyone with an opposing view.


She seems to focus a lot on saying we can get away from Boris Johnson and the tory government, in which she is correct. But she doesn’t provide any real arguments apart from that - it’s all just hyperbole.

I am no fan of the Boris Johnson led government myself, but he’s likely to be gone within 2 years.
 
A101
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
If Catalonia had done the same it could be independant right now.


Really how?

The Catalan Independence referenda was held in 2017, just like this Scottish referenda it would hold no legal weight to be enacted unlike the referenda in regards to the EU


But in Catalonia there was no precedence on a referendum so they should have done it much more carefully like Scotland is doing now, announce well in advance, let time for all the court cases, let every political opinion be expressed, etc.

The referendum would have been consultative anyway, but at least it could have happened in better circumstances, with people against independence actually voting.


Fair call, you raised some good points

Aesma wrote:

We'll see how the Tories manage this one, but if they're dismissive, or even hostile, it can only help independance win. And I don't see them trying to physically stop the referendum from happening, so engaging in the campaign would be more sensible.

As for what happens next, well, Brexit is a template : win the referendum first, worry about the details later ! But there will be no need to cut ties ASAP, building a plan where Scotland joins the EU single market at the same time as it separates from the UK could be an option.

It's also possible that when that happens, the UK will already have joined the single market back. Some Tories are already talking about this.



Personally in my opinion the Government does not need to do anything, let the Supreme make its decision whether or not it meets the definition of ultra vires.

If by chance the referenda is held and as the bill suggests its consultive all the government has to say that they will leave it for consideration after the next GE, solves Boris problem as he wont be PM any way
 
Arion640
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:14 pm

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
A101 wrote:

Really how?

The Catalan Independence referenda was held in 2017, just like this Scottish referenda it would hold no legal weight to be enacted unlike the referenda in regards to the EU


But in Catalonia there was no precedence on a referendum so they should have done it much more carefully like Scotland is doing now, announce well in advance, let time for all the court cases, let every political opinion be expressed, etc.

The referendum would have been consultative anyway, but at least it could have happened in better circumstances, with people against independence actually voting.


Fair call, you raised some good points

Aesma wrote:

We'll see how the Tories manage this one, but if they're dismissive, or even hostile, it can only help independance win. And I don't see them trying to physically stop the referendum from happening, so engaging in the campaign would be more sensible.

As for what happens next, well, Brexit is a template : win the referendum first, worry about the details later ! But there will be no need to cut ties ASAP, building a plan where Scotland joins the EU single market at the same time as it separates from the UK could be an option.

It's also possible that when that happens, the UK will already have joined the single market back. Some Tories are already talking about this.



Personally in my opinion the Government does not need to do anything, let the Supreme make its decision whether or not it meets the definition of ultra vires.

If by chance the referenda is held and as the bill suggests its consultive all the government has to say that they will leave it for consideration after the next GE, solves Boris problem as he wont be PM any way


If the vote does end up going ahead, all the unionists parties need to do is boycott it and make the whole thing look completely stupid and ridiculous.
 
bennett123
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:55 pm

Another point, this vote affects everyone in the UK.

Should we vote as well?.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:23 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Another point, this vote affects everyone in the UK.

Should we vote as well?.


When I worked in Aberdeen I joked to my local colleagues that the easiest way to ensure Scottish independence was to give the English a vote!
 
A101
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Another point, this vote affects everyone in the UK.

Should we vote as well?.


When I worked in Aberdeen I joked to my local colleagues that the easiest way to ensure Scottish independence was to give the English a vote!


yes I agree with that sentiment, have heard things like that for many years
 
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Aesma
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:39 am

Arion640 wrote:
If the vote does end up going ahead, all the unionists parties need to do is boycott it and make the whole thing look completely stupid and ridiculous.


Do you really think that would work ? And if it did, don't you fear it would cause a lot of problems like in Catalonia ?
 
A101
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:57 am

Aesma wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
If the vote does end up going ahead, all the unionists parties need to do is boycott it and make the whole thing look completely stupid and ridiculous.


Do you really think that would work ? And if it did, don't you fear it would cause a lot of problems like in Catalonia ?



There is a possibility.

But I would like to think if there were formal boycotting from unionist the it would be formally held again and then a more properly run formal campaign

It’s a pity it can’t be more run like the Australian model with all the details worked out before people vote so they know exactly what to expect before hand

Maybe that should be the new gold standard with a dual referenda to ask if the the Scottish are happy to rejoin the EU but with the caveat that they would most likely have no opt outs and will have to be all in
 
JJJ
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:35 am

dc10bhx wrote:
A number of questions will need to be answered by the SNP if they are to have any success with this referendum.

This time around they will need to show substantive evidence of how on earth they are going to fund everything that they will be promising in the (unlikely in my opinion) chance that they get the vote they want.


Nah. The party pushing for change will draw a scenario full of unicorns and pretty puppies and the part that wants to stay will call BS on everything and start project fear the 3rd.

Last referendums clearly told us most people don't want or expect a serious discussion on the merits. Just soundbits and fast-food slogans.
 
JJJ
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:41 am

Aesma wrote:
A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
If Catalonia had done the same it could be independant right now.


Really how?

The Catalan Independence referenda was held in 2017, just like this Scottish referenda it would hold no legal weight to be enacted unlike the referenda in regards to the EU


But in Catalonia there was no precedence on a referendum so they should have done it much more carefully like Scotland is doing now, announce well in advance, let time for all the court cases, let every political opinion be expressed, etc.

The referendum would have been consultative anyway, but at least it could have happened in better circumstances, with people against independence actually voting.


There was a legal route for the Catalan parties to hold a fully legal (though consultative) referendum, they just did not have the majority for it but tried to push for it anyways.

And it went exactly as expected.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:02 am

par13del wrote:
If the leader of Scotland wants a vote, Boris should give her a vote, she is using the independence issue as a political football, if the government puts obstacles in place it will only embolden her and create more nationalism, on both sides of the wall. If she has to focus on the issues of how Scotland will get on as an independent country, the debate will get interesting real quick. To get Brexit involved, any bet's on the EU changing course and offering a fast track into the EU, after all, fast track is now working for Ukraine, Finland, and Sweden, so why not Scotland, all points of interest that will come up if the UK attempts to derail the vote versus debating the real issues.


Sweden and Finland are already members of the EU, they have been for a long long time, fast track membership to Nato is completely different. I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for fast track EU membership for Ukraine, I don't think the EU can afford to bring them up to anywhere near parity with the rest of the EU anytime soon or within a reasonable budget, German reunification has to date cost 2 trillion EUR, East Germany was nowhere near as undeveloped or corrupt as Ukraine is today.

I doubt when push comes to shove the Scottish people would be happy with a hard border between Scotland and the UK, or changing to the Euro, or seeing all the funding Westminster provides dry up.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:11 am

gkirk wrote:
Freedom is coming!
No longer will we be tied to a corrupt Westminster.


It seems, just like the SNP, you have no answers to the tricky questions.
 
Arion640
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:49 am

Aesma wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
If the vote does end up going ahead, all the unionists parties need to do is boycott it and make the whole thing look completely stupid and ridiculous.


Do you really think that would work ? And if it did, don't you fear it would cause a lot of problems like in Catalonia ?


In short. Yes and we’ll see i suppose.
 
michael478
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:52 am

scbriml wrote:

When I worked in Aberdeen I joked to my local colleagues that the easiest way to ensure Scottish independence was to give the English a vote!


I suspect that this is a false statement, and I'm sure it was annoying the hell out of your Scottish colleagues

If the English had a vote, Scotland would definitely stay

the whole 'let us vote and you will be out' schtick just seems reactionary, like a scolded ex screaming 'fine, leave, see if I care'

the truth is, England values the union a lot more than the rest, and I suspect its because it is top dog

didn't like the EU for the opposite reason, because they weren't top dog, even though they had the second most seats in the EU parliament, and a bag of exemptions granted to no-one else, I guess that isn't enough, they wanted to rule supreme, just like they do as part of the UK

what's funny is brexiters are now using the same arguments 'project fear' was using, to try and persuade the Scottish to stay

I hope they do gain independence, and join the EU, and hopefully we will prosper together, and those who keep saying they want to go at it alone, can enjoy being truly alone
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:50 am

I think with the current government still in power there is a serious risk that the answer to a Referendum will be yes. You honestly can't blame the Scots at all for wanting to seperate off, a great deal of English voters want nothing more from this Government either, and if the polls from the local elections last week are as accurate as the national polls are right now there is only one way a GE will go.

I don't however see how Scotland can really go it's own way, there are too many complex questions to answer that nobody seems able or willing to answer. I also don't want them to leave.

If Labour do indeed win the next election then I think that changes the landscape completely and a yes vote to Scottish Independance is then highly unlikely.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:52 am

michael478 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

When I worked in Aberdeen I joked to my local colleagues that the easiest way to ensure Scottish independence was to give the English a vote!


I suspect that this is a false statement, and I'm sure it was annoying the hell out of your Scottish colleagues

If the English had a vote, Scotland would definitely stay

the whole 'let us vote and you will be out' schtick just seems reactionary, like a scolded ex screaming 'fine, leave, see if I care'

the truth is, England values the union a lot more than the rest, and I suspect its because it is top dog

didn't like the EU for the opposite reason, because they weren't top dog, even though they had the second most seats in the EU parliament, and a bag of exemptions granted to no-one else, I guess that isn't enough, they wanted to rule supreme, just like they do as part of the UK

what's funny is brexiters are now using the same arguments 'project fear' was using, to try and persuade the Scottish to stay

I hope they do gain independence, and join the EU, and hopefully we will prosper together, and those who keep saying they want to go at it alone, can enjoy being truly alone


You apparently missed the key word "joke". :sarcastic:

I've made my personal opinion clear. I'd prefer Scotland to remain in the UK because I believe it's best for them and the UK. But, if they get another referendum, it will be their choice.

I'm still waiting to hear reasoned answers to all the tricky questions. So far it's just "feelings".
 
Arion640
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:26 am

michael478 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

When I worked in Aberdeen I joked to my local colleagues that the easiest way to ensure Scottish independence was to give the English a vote!


I suspect that this is a false statement, and I'm sure it was annoying the hell out of your Scottish colleagues

If the English had a vote, Scotland would definitely stay

the whole 'let us vote and you will be out' schtick just seems reactionary, like a scolded ex screaming 'fine, leave, see if I care'

the truth is, England values the union a lot more than the rest, and I suspect its because it is top dog

didn't like the EU for the opposite reason, because they weren't top dog, even though they had the second most seats in the EU parliament, and a bag of exemptions granted to no-one else, I guess that isn't enough, they wanted to rule supreme, just like they do as part of the UK

what's funny is brexiters are now using the same arguments 'project fear' was using, to try and persuade the Scottish to stay

I hope they do gain independence, and join the EU, and hopefully we will prosper together, and those who keep saying they want to go at it alone, can enjoy being truly alone


Wales values the union a lot as well.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3355
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:29 am

Reinhardt wrote:
I think with the current government still in power there is a serious risk that the answer to a Referendum will be yes. You honestly can't blame the Scots at all for wanting to seperate off, a great deal of English voters want nothing more from this Government either, and if the polls from the local elections last week are as accurate as the national polls are right now there is only one way a GE will go.

I don't however see how Scotland can really go it's own way, there are too many complex questions to answer that nobody seems able or willing to answer. I also don't want them to leave.

If Labour do indeed win the next election then I think that changes the landscape completely and a yes vote to Scottish Independance is then highly unlikely.


I’m happy to see in a Labour government if it helps this Scottish independence problem subside a bit.
 
michael478
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:17 pm

Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:49 am

scbriml wrote:
michael478 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

When I worked in Aberdeen I joked to my local colleagues that the easiest way to ensure Scottish independence was to give the English a vote!


I suspect that this is a false statement, and I'm sure it was annoying the hell out of your Scottish colleagues

If the English had a vote, Scotland would definitely stay

the whole 'let us vote and you will be out' schtick just seems reactionary, like a scolded ex screaming 'fine, leave, see if I care'

the truth is, England values the union a lot more than the rest, and I suspect its because it is top dog

didn't like the EU for the opposite reason, because they weren't top dog, even though they had the second most seats in the EU parliament, and a bag of exemptions granted to no-one else, I guess that isn't enough, they wanted to rule supreme, just like they do as part of the UK

what's funny is brexiters are now using the same arguments 'project fear' was using, to try and persuade the Scottish to stay

I hope they do gain independence, and join the EU, and hopefully we will prosper together, and those who keep saying they want to go at it alone, can enjoy being truly alone


You apparently missed the key word "joke". :sarcastic:

I've made my personal opinion clear. I'd prefer Scotland to remain in the UK because I believe it's best for them and the UK. But, if they get another referendum, it will be their choice.

I'm still waiting to hear reasoned answers to all the tricky questions. So far it's just "feelings".



dunno, it has been repeated ad nauseum whenever the topic comes up, it's starting to feel less of a joke and more like a passive aggressive reaction to a subject that is obviously more close to home than many english would like to admit

I dont mind admitting a little bit of schadenfreude regarding the matter, the english have been cheering on the inevitable collapse of the european union that would be brought about because of brexit, so if it instead leads to the dissolution of the U.K., I must confess it would make me chuckle
 
michael478
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:17 pm

Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:57 am

Arion640 wrote:

Wales values the union a lot as well.


probably yes, more than the Scottish, that's for sure
 
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scbriml
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:02 pm

michael478 wrote:
dunno, it has been repeated ad nauseum whenever the topic comes up, it's starting to feel less of a joke and more like a passive aggressive reaction to a subject that is obviously more close to home than many english would like to admit


That goes both ways. As the token sassenach in the office, I was regularly subjected to endless diatribes about how all of Scotland's problems are the fault of the English.

Jokes aside, my position is clear and unequivocal.
 
michael478
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:17 pm

Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
michael478 wrote:

That goes both ways. As the token sassenach in the office, I was regularly subjected to endless diatribes about how all of Scotland's problems are the fault of the English.

Jokes aside, my position is clear and unequivocal.



well obviously they are not shy about how they feel, obviously they don't see themselves as an equal member of the union, they probably feel subjugated, so every problem they have is blamed on the subjugator

that's how brexiters have been depicting the european union for decades, as subjugators, not as a union of equal partners, hence brexit, we shall see if the same will be true of scottish independence

I am honestly curious, were these diatribes coming from both protestants and catholics? is there a correlation between religion and loyalty to the union?
 
marcelh
Posts: 2015
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:06 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
I think with the current government still in power there is a serious risk that the answer to a Referendum will be yes. You honestly can't blame the Scots at all for wanting to seperate off, a great deal of English voters want nothing more from this Government either, and if the polls from the local elections last week are as accurate as the national polls are right now there is only one way a GE will go.

I don't however see how Scotland can really go it's own way, there are too many complex questions to answer that nobody seems able or willing to answer. I also don't want them to leave.

If Labour do indeed win the next election then I think that changes the landscape completely and a yes vote to Scottish Independance is then highly unlikely.


I’m happy to see in a Labour government if it helps this Scottish independence problem subside a bit.

Why is the UK independent from the EU a blessing and Scotland being independent from the UK a problem?
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2855
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:15 pm

par13del wrote:
If the leader of Scotland wants a vote, Boris should give her a vote, she is using the independence issue as a political football

Remember that time David Cameron called for a referendum to strengthen his political position and take the wind out of the sails of some people wanting to withdraw from a union of nations?

dc10bhx wrote:
A number of questions will need to be answered by the SNP if they are to have any success with this referendum.

This time around they will need to show substantive evidence of how on earth they are going to fund everything that they will be promising in the (unlikely in my opinion) chance that they get the vote they want.

What currency will they be using (and more importantly how will the currency be backed up)? Will they still be offering free medical care and prescriptions? Free education (University)? Will there be an application to re-join the EU?

These points (and many more) will need to be answered to allow the Voters to have as much information to hand as possible.

If Brexit showed anything it’s that whipping up populist outrage trumps rational thinking about those kinds of issues. You make vague promises that all will be better and that you have a plan, then work the details out after you win.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:33 pm

Reading you all it seems that a majority of Scottish people voting yes to the question “Should Scotland be an independent country?” only means a complete breakup from UK, an hard Scoxit like what UK did with its exit of EU.

In which case, as exposed by previous posters, there will be a need to have answers and solutions for very tough subject, but does it have absolutely to be this way, could a be soft Scoxit enough ? What shape could it take ?

With Nicola Sturgeon’s statement it seems to me that the key motivation is to stop being ruled by “Westminster governments we don’t vote for, imposing policies we don’t support, too often holding us back from fulfilling our potential”. Then list a lot of issues she has for being ruled from Westminster.

Tring to imagine a way for Scotland to remain in a single market with the rest of GB, sharing army and currency with rest of GB while managing their laws and budget would satisfy most of the issues raised in the statement (not freedom of movement though, which also seems quite important) and put to rest a lot of the tricky questions.
As an ex UK MP nearly wrote Sturgeon could then say : We have voted to leave the UK, but not Great Britain ! :lol:

Maybe there's an acceptable space there, where SNP wouldn't have to answer "project fear" to every difficult questions by not giving existence to these questions in the first place.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:46 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Maybe there's an acceptable space there, where SNP wouldn't have to answer "project fear" to every difficult questions by not giving existence to these questions in the first place.


I think that would entirely depend upon what Government it is you are trying to negotiate with. If it's the current lot, no chance of a mid way soft "scoxit". If Scotland can be seen to prosper outside of the UK with a closer connection to the EU then that's a massive threat to half the Tory party and what they've done with Brexit (assuming an independant Scotland gets those closer ties with the EU).

As others have mentioned though Brexit was full of bluster, lacking in facts and half the population lapped it up so I don't think you'll be seeing swathes of Scots demanding answers to the difficult questions. Maybe they'll prove me wrong, but there hasn't been that kind of discussion in UK politics for a long time and it's the reason these kind of things shouldn't be given to the public because to be truthful they are just too complex to understand. Some of them there are no answers for and you might not know until after the vote - i.e when a negotiation happens. I guess all you can do is make people aware of what those options could be and how hard they could be to implement. But again, it's so open to nonsense being spouted by the uniformed / those with ulterior motives.
 
A101
Topic Author
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:48 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Reading you all it seems that a majority of Scottish people voting yes to the question “Should Scotland be an independent country?” only means a complete breakup from UK, an hard Scoxit like what UK did with its exit of EU.

In which case, as exposed by previous posters, there will be a need to have answers and solutions for very tough subject, but does it have absolutely to be this way, could a be soft Scoxit enough ? What shape could it take ?

With Nicola Sturgeon’s statement it seems to me that the key motivation is to stop being ruled by “Westminster governments we don’t vote for, imposing policies we don’t support, too often holding us back from fulfilling our potential”. Then list a lot of issues she has for being ruled from Westminster.

Tring to imagine a way for Scotland to remain in a single market with the rest of GB, sharing army and currency with rest of GB while managing their laws and budget would satisfy most of the issues raised in the statement (not freedom of movement though, which also seems quite important) and put to rest a lot of the tricky questions.
As an ex UK MP nearly wrote Sturgeon could then say : We have voted to leave the UK, but not Great Britain ! :lol:

Maybe there's an acceptable space there, where SNP wouldn't have to answer "project fear" to every difficult questions by not giving existence to these questions in the first place.



The elephant in the room with that is Sturgeon has hitched her coat tails to the EU
 
A101
Topic Author
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Re: Nicola Sturgeon seeks independence vote in Oct. 2023

Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:53 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Maybe there's an acceptable space there, where SNP wouldn't have to answer "project fear" to every difficult questions by not giving existence to these questions in the first place.


I think that would entirely depend upon what Government it is you are trying to negotiate with. If it's the current lot, no chance of a mid way soft "scoxit". If Scotland can be seen to prosper outside of the UK with a closer connection to the EU then that's a massive threat to half the Tory party and what they've done with Brexit (assuming an independant Scotland gets those closer ties with the EU).

As others have mentioned though Brexit was full of bluster, lacking in facts and half the population lapped it up so I don't think you'll be seeing swathes of Scots demanding answers to the difficult questions. Maybe they'll prove me wrong, but there hasn't been that kind of discussion in UK politics for a long time and it's the reason these kind of things shouldn't be given to the public because to be truthful they are just too complex to understand. Some of them there are no answers for and you might not know until after the vote - i.e when a negotiation happens. I guess all you can do is make people aware of what those options could be and how hard they could be to implement. But again, it's so open to nonsense being spouted by the uniformed / those with ulterior motives.



There is scope to do things different as there is not legislation to follow, whereas with leaving the EU there was A50 which gave a measure of guidance. Here we have nothing like that.

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