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A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:38 pm

AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
The very fact everyone is forgetting that the WA is really only about the technicality of the financial aspect of withdrawing from the EU and that’s all it ever should have been. The division of liabilities and assets.

The EU exploited its use to include an element’s which ordinarily would have been done via a trade deal or defence agreements. The EU were using false narrative with the Belfast Agreement to press a hot issue button that was not actually there.


So Boris Johnson should have rejected the WA. But he did not. Shame on him.



Basically yeah there wasn’t much time to renegotiate, EU stance was they had signed WA and they were not going negotiate .

Would that have stopped the rebel and treasonous Parliament......who knows
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:20 am

A101 wrote:
Get off your high horse; it’s the disruption to trade from rUK to NI that are the main drivers to divisions not trade from rUK to ROI.

Remember its part of the Protocol for unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the UK market. That is a direct result of the protocol not Brexit.
But what you are really saying is that Brussels is still so aggrieved that the UK actually had the audacity to leave the EU.


No, I’m saying “No Brexit” = “No NI issues”, unfettered trade access or otherwise.

While reminding you that there is no cross/community support for Brexit in NI either.

BoJo created those issues with his decision to go with a hard Brexit.

A101 wrote:
Who is rewriting history?

Are you saying that Cameron didn’t say that and was a figment of my imagination and he was wrong?

A vast number of people had there say during the campaign with varying opinions and conjecture or are you saying people only listened to Hannan a, strawman’s argument.
It comes down to who had the more direct power to influence the referenda Cameron or Hannan?


Yes, I’m sure Leavers were paying close attention to what Cameron was saying on this (and no other) subject. Anyway, the implication is that Hannan was lying. And yet he emerged on the winning side. Bit of a theme, that. What does it tell us about some Brit voters?

A101 wrote:
You are never going to have 100% on any issue and it was not ignored it was to be mitigated the best way possible in a way, and the way forward was a CTA that had first been put in place in 1922 which actually was only reaffirmed and was not abolished when the UK joined the EEC with only border checks for goods only which is not against the GFA

And I still stand by what I said that the Brussels exploited the issues in respect to NI and over played the border issue regarding goods checks at the border. With the protocol as it currently stands is fuelling dissent between nationalist and unionist within NI.


Only noteworthy because:

- the lack of cross-community support for Brexit is conveniently ignored by the same folk demanding cross-community support for everything else; it’s dishonest.

- no one thought to check about whether a hard Brexit, or the implications of measures to address it, had cross-community support. BoJo just went ahead with both (to the evident consternation of the DUP).

BoJo signed the NIP. BoJo threw NI unionists under the bust. BoJo either didn’t bother checking the NIP, or lied about it repeatedly. Remember this:

'There will be no checks on goods going from GB to NI, or NI to GB' - 8 December 2019

https://www.bbc.com/news/58001530

Blaming the EU for BoJos decisions and public statements is a bit much. Like rewriting history.

He wasn’t fit for office then. And that never changed. But voters who should have known better decided to go with him anywhere. They own the mess he made. Like the “they said it couldn’t be done” crowd. We know how that worked out.

A101 wrote:
The negotiations are primarily about the requirements of the Protocols unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the UK market. That is the fundamental issue.


No. The fundamental issue is about avoiding a North-South Border which, in turn, is a Brexit creation. The E-W border only exists in order to avoid an N-S one. Get rid of the former and you end up with the latter. Time to let go of BoJo cakeism that allows one to pretend otherwise.

His dishonesty - well documented before he got to Downing Streer - was staggering. That he managed to get into Downing Street is an indictment of those who voted for him.

A101 wrote:
Semantics we know that Brussels was intent on invoking A16 which whilst at the same time would have been a breech of there own laws and regulations, which goes to show that the EU regards NI as a way and means to continue its vindictiveness agenda against the UK leaving the EU. Remember it was the EU officials within the negotiations team who said we have our first colony in regards to UK and the rejected WA.


What semantics? Did they trigger A16? No. Whether they talked about it or not is irrelevant.

As a reminder; BoJo and brexiteers compared the EU to Nazi Germany (and, curiously, their archnemesis - the Soviets). Why so sensitive when they hurled equally silly nonsense back? Don’t like it, don’t dish it out. BoJo set the tone for that. And got elected for it. Which tells us everything we need to know about those who voted for him.

A101 wrote:
The Tories were already in power remember David Cameron the pro remain PM who set it all in motion, and Theresa May the pro remain PM who ceded to the demands of the EU against the interest of the UK, and finally Boris Johnson who recognized the fallacy what the majority pro remain Parliament and EU were doing to subjugate the EU into vassalage y


Different Tory party, that. The party of Cameron, Phil Hammond, George Osborne etc. Small government/low tax etc. Actual conservatives, not UKIP lite.

BoJo’s Tory party is a populist insurgency with its high spending/high tax and culture wars fixation. The party of JRM, Dorries and other folk who’d never get near cabinet in Australia or any other country.

And not that it needs to be pointed out yet again, but the pro-remain parliament was elected by the British people after Brexit. Can’t keep blaming others for the poor choices of UK voters.

A101 wrote:
Everything the fault of the voter’s blah blah blah
What is interesting is the double standards. You champion the Scottish to independence via the electorate that voted in the SNP but rubbish the electorate for voting in a government for actually doing returning sovereignty to the UK within the laws of each entity


I don’t champion Scottish independence; I just refuse to put up with the self-evident hypocrisy of supporting one referendum to leave a union, but not the other. If a referendum on Brexit is acceptable, there’s no logical world in which a referendum on Scottish independence is unacceptable. Both rely on the same basic principle of self-determination.

But yes, it’s the voters’ fault. It’s their fault for voting the way they did in 2016, 2017 and 2019 without fully considering the implications of their votes. It’s not the EUs fault, at any rate. Need to start taking responsibility for one’s own decisions.

Of course, we can see how difficult that can be for the BoJo types. He’s still blaming some invisible “herd” + Rishi Sunak for his ouster, when it was his own lies and behaviour that did it. Democracies get the leaders they deserve.

And history will likely judge this particular phase - during which the Tories have lurched towards the populist right, elected BoJo apparently knowing exactly what he was, before defenestrating him for living up to his critics expectations, and likely appointing Liz Truss as PM, as a reflection of arguably one of the worst phases of UK democracy. Which, in turn, tells us everything we need to know about the voters who enabled this: nothing good.

BoJo didn’t elect himself. Those who did, own the mess he made. And have rightfully earned many a question about the quality of their judgment.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 am

A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
The very fact everyone is forgetting that the WA is really only about the technicality of the financial aspect of withdrawing from the EU and that’s all it ever should have been. The division of liabilities and assets.

The EU exploited its use to include an element’s which ordinarily would have been done via a trade deal or defence agreements. The EU were using false narrative with the Belfast Agreement to press a hot issue button that was not actually there.


So Boris Johnson should have rejected the WA. But he did not. Shame on him.



Basically yeah there wasn’t much time to renegotiate, EU stance was they had signed WA and they were not going negotiate .

Would that have stopped the rebel and treasonous Parliament......who knows


Or leave without a deal, which was always an option after the 2019 election.

“Rebel and treasonous parliament” haha. Might want to grab some pitchforks and hunt down the voters who installed traitors.

Oh, wait,
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:45 am

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Get off your high horse; it’s the disruption to trade from rUK to NI that are the main drivers to divisions not trade from rUK to ROI.
Remember its part of the Protocol for unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the UK market. That is a direct result of the protocol not Brexit.
But what you are really saying is that Brussels is still so aggrieved that the UK actually had the audacity to leave the EU.

No, I’m saying “No Brexit” = “No NI issues”, unfettered trade access or otherwise.


No that’s not correct there are always issues between Nationalist and Unionist ergo Brexit or no Brexit

ElPistolero wrote:

While reminding you that there is no cross/community support for Brexit in NI either.
BoJo created those issues with his decision to go with a hard Brexit.


You were never going to get it because the NIP left NI closely aligned to ROI.

As for BJ and hard exist checks at the border if ROI/NI chose to do it there was goods moving across the border CTA saw to that with EU blessing all the NI has done is left NI in a state of vassalage, as it has no say in Brussels

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Who is rewriting history?
Are you saying that Cameron didn’t say that and was a figment of my imagination and he was wrong?
A vast number of people had their say during the campaign with varying opinions and conjecture or are you saying people only listened to Hannan a, strawman’s argument.
It comes down to who had the more direct power to influence the referenda Cameron or Hannan?

Yes, I’m sure Leavers were paying close attention to what Cameron was saying on this (and no other) subject. Anyway, the implication is that Hannan was lying. And yet he emerged on the winning side. Bit of a theme, that. What does it tell us about some Brit voters?

There was a lot of noise from each side in the lead up so I can’t say who they listened to and who not and either can you.

Hannan said at lot of things in the lead up to the vote, so I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to. But what cannot be disputed is that Cameron was 100% right in what he was saying if no agreement was reached by exist day we were out of the CU/SM and that had to be negotiated irrespective if it was the softest or hardest of agreements. Doesn’t tell me much about voters’ intentions as it was out of there control unless they put the WA to the electorate and it was the GOTD prerogative to do so or not.

Which is another thing I like about the Australian model they know exactly what they are voting for.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
You are never going to have 100% on any issue and it was not ignored it was to be mitigated the best way possible in a way, and the way forward was a CTA that had first been put in place in 1922 which actually was only reaffirmed and was not abolished when the UK joined the EEC with only border checks for goods only which is not against the GFA
And I still stand by what I said that the Brussels exploited the issues in respect to NI and over played the border issue regarding goods checks at the border. With the protocol as it currently stands is fuelling dissent between nationalist and unionist within NI.

Only noteworthy because:
- the lack of cross-community support for Brexit is conveniently ignored by the same folk demanding cross-community support for everything else; it’s dishonest.
- no one thought to check about whether a hard Brexit, or the implications of measures to address it, had cross-community support. BoJo just went ahead with both (to the evident consternation of the DUP).
BoJo signed the NIP. BoJo threw NI unionists under the bust. BoJo either didn’t bother checking the NIP, or lied about it repeatedly. Remember this:
'There will be no checks on goods going from GB to NI, or NI to GB' - 8 December 2019
https://www.bbc.com/news/58001530
Blaming the EU for BoJos decisions and public statements is a bit much. Like rewriting history.

No one is demanding cross-community support if you can get it bonus. The NIP from the UK point of view is how the business community interacts delivering unfettered access to and from the UK internal market which is part of the protocol.

And once again it was the intention to withdraw without a agreement and or a better agreement if it could be achieved but was thwarted be both the EU and rebel treasonous Parliament

If BJ had a misconception on the process and with the protocol when it says unfettered access, I cannot tell you as I can’t read his mind.

Now I don’t know about you but to me when I look up a dictionary like Merriam-webster delivering unfettered access I take that as : not controlled or restricted : free, unrestrained.

ElPistolero wrote:
He wasn’t fit for office then. And that never changed. But voters who should have known better decided to go with him anywhere. They own the mess he made. Like the “they said it couldn’t be done” crowd. We know how that worked out.

That’s a personal observation from you, you can voice your opinion until the cows come home does not mean you are right or wrong just your own opinion.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:

The negotiations are primarily about the requirements of the Protocols unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the UK market. That is the fundamental issue.

No. The fundamental issue is about avoiding a North-South Border which, in turn, is a Brexit creation. The E-W border only exists in order to avoid an N-S one. Get rid of the former and you end up with the latter. Time to let go of BoJo cakeism that allows one to pretend otherwise.

Nope they were trying to deliver what the protocol says delivering unfettered access to NI from the internal UK market. They were not trying to move it to the frontier.

But yes, if they do withdraw from the NIP then placing custom checks at the border does not infringe on the GFA or who is to say those custom requirements have to happen at the border each to their own on how they want to implement it. Don’t forget the CTA is not affected by the NIP.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Semantics we know that Brussels was intent on invoking A16 which whilst at the same time would have been a breech of there own laws and regulations, which goes to show that the EU regards NI as a way and means to continue its vindictiveness agenda against the UK leaving the EU. Remember it was the EU officials within the negotiations team who said we have our first colony in regards to UK and the rejected WA.

What semantics? Did they trigger A16? No. Whether they talked about it or not is irrelevant.
As a reminder; BoJo and brexiteers compared the EU to Nazi Germany (and, curiously, their archnemesis - the Soviets). Why so sensitive when they hurled equally silly nonsense back? Don’t like it, don’t dish it out. BoJo set the tone for that. And got elected for it. Which tells us everything we need to know about those who voted for him.

Apparently so even if it was only for a day or so until the rescinded it. And its certainly not irrelevant

https://www.irishnews.com/news/healthca ... d-2203719/

Not sure how you can compare rhetoric to concrete actions. Even Taoiseach Micheal Martin was aghast at the move.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
The Tories were already in power remember David Cameron the pro remain PM who set it all in motion, and Theresa May the pro remain PM who ceded to the demands of the EU against the interest of the UK, and finally Boris Johnson who recognized the fallacy what the majority pro remain Parliament and EU were doing to subjugate the EU into vassalage

Different Tory party, that. The party of Cameron, Phil Hammond, George Osborne etc. Small government/low tax etc. Actual conservatives, not UKIP lite.
BoJo’s Tory party is a populist insurgency with its high spending/high tax and culture wars fixation. The party of JRM, Dorries and other folk who’d never get near cabinet in Australia or any other country.
And not that it needs to be pointed out yet again, but the pro-remain parliament was elected by the British people after Brexit. Can’t keep blaming others for the poor choices of UK voters.


Don’t think these needs rehashing views are known earlier.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Everything the fault of the voter’s blah blah blah
What is interesting is the double standards. You champion the Scottish to independence via the electorate that voted in the SNP but rubbish the electorate for voting in a government for actually doing returning sovereignty to the UK within the laws of each entity

I don’t champion Scottish independence; I just refuse to put up with the self-evident hypocrisy of supporting one referendum to leave a union, but not the other. If a referendum on Brexit is acceptable, there’s no logical world in which a referendum on Scottish independence is unacceptable. Both rely on the same basic principle of self-determination.
But yes, it’s the voters’ fault. It’s their fault for voting the way they did in 2016, 2017 and 2019 without fully considering the implications of their votes. It’s not the EUs fault, at any rate. Need to start taking responsibility for one’s own decisions.
Of course, we can see how difficult that can be for the BoJo types. He’s still blaming some invisible “herd” + Rishi Sunak for his ouster, when it was his own lies and behaviour that did it. Democracies get the leaders they deserve.
And history will likely judge this particular phase - during which the Tories have lurched towards the populist right, elected BoJo apparently knowing exactly what he was, before defenestrating him for living up to his critics expectations, and likely appointing Liz Truss as PM, as a reflection of arguably one of the worst phases of UK democracy. Which, in turn, tells us everything we need to know about the voters who enabled this: nothing good.

BoJo didn’t elect himself. Those who did, own the mess he made. And have rightfully earned many a question about the quality of their judgment.


Just more blah blah blah voters fault yada yada yada

The perceived failures of governments are always the fault of the establishment. The leadership has the power and authority to rule over all of society. They hold full responsibility for any political failures susses or failures. For the electorate it is a binary choice on the ballot paper
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:51 am

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

So Boris Johnson should have rejected the WA. But he did not. Shame on him.



Basically yeah there wasn’t much time to renegotiate, EU stance was they had signed WA and they were not going negotiate .

Would that have stopped the rebel and treasonous Parliament......who knows


Or leave without a deal, which was always an option after the 2019 election.

“Rebel and treasonous parliament” haha. Might want to grab some pitchforks and hunt down the voters who installed traitors.

Oh, wait,


The end game was always about a trade deal not a WA.

But you are an intelligent bloke once forced into a withdrawal agreement he didn't really want but with the outcome that they said if its not passed and if he forfeits on the deal no end prize what would you do, get the TCA worry about the WA later....I think 100% of political leaders would do that
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:41 am

Parliamentary Sketch Writer John Crace, who dubbed Teresa May 'The Maybot' (which some Tory MP's even started using, from a writer from a paper they hate), has probably nailed Truss.
Radon Liz, Shes's a gas. But Inert.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... shop-arnie
 
AeroVega
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:03 am

A101 wrote:
The end game was always about a trade deal not a WA.

For Boris Johnson, not for the EU. What you have made clear is that for Boris Johnson, a trade deal with the EU was more important than preventing a customs border in the Irish sea. For the EU, preventing a customs border in Ireland was more important than a trade deal with Boris Johnson. So in the end, both sides got what was most important to them.
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:17 am

AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
The end game was always about a trade deal not a WA.

For Boris Johnson, not for the EU. What you have made clear is that for Boris Johnson, a trade deal with the EU was more important than preventing a customs border in the Irish sea. For the EU, preventing a customs border in Ireland was more important than a trade deal with Boris Johnson. So in the end, both sides got what was most important to them.

Not what I was say; for BJ once he had no options because of the surrender Act and got some minor tweaks to the WA and PD, then with the EU ultimatum he prioritised the trade deal over the WA. Then once he got that he went to work on renegotiating the WA. Every right-minded political leader would do the same if in BJ position because of the distortion of trade between rUK and NI


For the EU it only achieved a partial victory as its intent was to have the UK locked into the CU/SM hence trying to force the issue with level playing field demands.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:43 pm

A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
The end game was always about a trade deal not a WA.

For Boris Johnson, not for the EU. What you have made clear is that for Boris Johnson, a trade deal with the EU was more important than preventing a customs border in the Irish sea. For the EU, preventing a customs border in Ireland was more important than a trade deal with Boris Johnson. So in the end, both sides got what was most important to them.

Not what I was say; for BJ once he had no options because of the surrender Act


Repeating a lie does not make it true. But if that's what you need make you feel better about Boris Johnson's then, sure, keep on repeating it.

But Boris is gone and someone else will need to clean up the mess he left behind.
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:00 pm

As this piece has that rare thing, an actual Brexit supporting economist heavily quoted, he is unusual in being honest, here is what those numpties who voted Brexit, then Tory in the 'Red Wall' have coming to them, of course, they were more concerned with 'bloody foreigners' and 'immigrants', so easily fooled but not bothered when a mega rich foreigner buys their spacker football team and prices them out.

The only economist she could quote as a backer when questioned on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme was far-right maverick Patrick Minford, once an adviser to Margaret Thatcher. In the heat of Brexit rows in 2018, when Theresa May was in the throes of struggling with her party over her EU plan, I asked him to spell out Brexit’s benefits.

As leader of the then Economists for Brexit, he claimed that Brexit would bring in 6.8% growth, or £135bn. (So far, it’s a 4% drop in GDP.) Abolishing all tariffs, he said, would cut 20% off food prices, while throwing Britain open to world free trade’s cheapest goods. Removing all regulatory barriers would cut another 20% off prices. What of food quality? As long as it was labelled, let consumers decide on safety. What of bankrupting UK farming? Big farmers will switch to biotech and GM; inefficient small ones will go to the wall. What of manufacturing killed by off by floods of cheap imports? Doesn’t matter, let cheaper countries do “metal bashing”, he said. It would mean, he said, “reallocation of labour” just like those “reallocations” under Thatcher in the 1980s that never happened, instead abandoning “left behind” communities in their deserted shipyards, steel works and mines. Yes, it would mean another “shock” like those, but clearing out overprotection from global competition would bring a huge economic boost in lower prices. Short-term pain means long-term gain: a second coming of Thatcher’s 1980s. He was an adviser who most strongly advocated the poll tax to Margaret Thatcher, whereby a duke paid the same flat-rate local tax as a dustman, and which caused her downfall.

In her imitation of Thatcher, that’s the advice Truss has opted for, so it’s clear why she has given “levelling up” short shrift. If she is moulding her ideas on Minford’s – and she quoted his Express article today – then she is indeed a revolutionary. As she said on Radio 4: “We need someone with the toughness, the grit,” who is prepared to “take on the Whitehall machine and drive through change”. Sunak was “the continuity economic candidate” who had taken the UK in the “wrong direction”. He, along with the entire Treasury economic establishment, was “peddling a particular type of economic policy for the last 20 years” that had not delivered. Others might agree – but from radically different perspectives. Citing Minford, Truss justified far higher borrowing, and that should warm the cockles of Labour’s heart. The one attack that Prime Minister Truss couldn’t launch against Labour at an election would be fiscal laxity.


C'mon Brexit backers, I dare you, double, even triple dare you, answer that.
Clearly proving that all along the whole thing was a billionaire project, or some ambitious millionaires, for tax dodging mainly.
And they fell for it, with terrible effects on this country. Call yourselves 'patriots', don't make me laugh.
You were fooled by an obvious buffoon and a reheated Moselyite (Farage).
The only ones I feel sorry for are those negatively affected who did not, or for various reasons, could not, vote against this charade.

And this is who Truss has advising her?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... her-labour
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:50 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Get off your high horse; it’s the disruption to trade from rUK to NI that are the main drivers to divisions not trade from rUK to ROI.
Remember its part of the Protocol for unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the UK market. That is a direct result of the protocol not Brexit.
But what you are really saying is that Brussels is still so aggrieved that the UK actually had the audacity to leave the EU.

No, I’m saying “No Brexit” = “No NI issues”, unfettered trade access or otherwise.


No that’s not correct there are always issues between Nationalist and Unionist ergo Brexit or no Brexit

ElPistolero wrote:

While reminding you that there is no cross/community support for Brexit in NI either.
BoJo created those issues with his decision to go with a hard Brexit.


You were never going to get it because the NIP left NI closely aligned to ROI.

As for BJ and hard exist checks at the border if ROI/NI chose to do it there was goods moving across the border CTA saw to that with EU blessing all the NI has done is left NI in a state of vassalage, as it has no say in Brussels

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Who is rewriting history?
Are you saying that Cameron didn’t say that and was a figment of my imagination and he was wrong?
A vast number of people had their say during the campaign with varying opinions and conjecture or are you saying people only listened to Hannan a, strawman’s argument.
It comes down to who had the more direct power to influence the referenda Cameron or Hannan?

Yes, I’m sure Leavers were paying close attention to what Cameron was saying on this (and no other) subject. Anyway, the implication is that Hannan was lying. And yet he emerged on the winning side. Bit of a theme, that. What does it tell us about some Brit voters?

There was a lot of noise from each side in the lead up so I can’t say who they listened to and who not and either can you.

Hannan said at lot of things in the lead up to the vote, so I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to. But what cannot be disputed is that Cameron was 100% right in what he was saying if no agreement was reached by exist day we were out of the CU/SM and that had to be negotiated irrespective if it was the softest or hardest of agreements. Doesn’t tell me much about voters’ intentions as it was out of there control unless they put the WA to the electorate and it was the GOTD prerogative to do so or not.

Which is another thing I like about the Australian model they know exactly what they are voting for.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
You are never going to have 100% on any issue and it was not ignored it was to be mitigated the best way possible in a way, and the way forward was a CTA that had first been put in place in 1922 which actually was only reaffirmed and was not abolished when the UK joined the EEC with only border checks for goods only which is not against the GFA
And I still stand by what I said that the Brussels exploited the issues in respect to NI and over played the border issue regarding goods checks at the border. With the protocol as it currently stands is fuelling dissent between nationalist and unionist within NI.

Only noteworthy because:
- the lack of cross-community support for Brexit is conveniently ignored by the same folk demanding cross-community support for everything else; it’s dishonest.
- no one thought to check about whether a hard Brexit, or the implications of measures to address it, had cross-community support. BoJo just went ahead with both (to the evident consternation of the DUP).
BoJo signed the NIP. BoJo threw NI unionists under the bust. BoJo either didn’t bother checking the NIP, or lied about it repeatedly. Remember this:
'There will be no checks on goods going from GB to NI, or NI to GB' - 8 December 2019
https://www.bbc.com/news/58001530
Blaming the EU for BoJos decisions and public statements is a bit much. Like rewriting history.

No one is demanding cross-community support if you can get it bonus. The NIP from the UK point of view is how the business community interacts delivering unfettered access to and from the UK internal market which is part of the protocol.

And once again it was the intention to withdraw without a agreement and or a better agreement if it could be achieved but was thwarted be both the EU and rebel treasonous Parliament

If BJ had a misconception on the process and with the protocol when it says unfettered access, I cannot tell you as I can’t read his mind.

Now I don’t know about you but to me when I look up a dictionary like Merriam-webster delivering unfettered access I take that as : not controlled or restricted : free, unrestrained.

ElPistolero wrote:
He wasn’t fit for office then. And that never changed. But voters who should have known better decided to go with him anywhere. They own the mess he made. Like the “they said it couldn’t be done” crowd. We know how that worked out.

That’s a personal observation from you, you can voice your opinion until the cows come home does not mean you are right or wrong just your own opinion.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:

The negotiations are primarily about the requirements of the Protocols unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the UK market. That is the fundamental issue.

No. The fundamental issue is about avoiding a North-South Border which, in turn, is a Brexit creation. The E-W border only exists in order to avoid an N-S one. Get rid of the former and you end up with the latter. Time to let go of BoJo cakeism that allows one to pretend otherwise.

Nope they were trying to deliver what the protocol says delivering unfettered access to NI from the internal UK market. They were not trying to move it to the frontier.

But yes, if they do withdraw from the NIP then placing custom checks at the border does not infringe on the GFA or who is to say those custom requirements have to happen at the border each to their own on how they want to implement it. Don’t forget the CTA is not affected by the NIP.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Semantics we know that Brussels was intent on invoking A16 which whilst at the same time would have been a breech of there own laws and regulations, which goes to show that the EU regards NI as a way and means to continue its vindictiveness agenda against the UK leaving the EU. Remember it was the EU officials within the negotiations team who said we have our first colony in regards to UK and the rejected WA.

What semantics? Did they trigger A16? No. Whether they talked about it or not is irrelevant.
As a reminder; BoJo and brexiteers compared the EU to Nazi Germany (and, curiously, their archnemesis - the Soviets). Why so sensitive when they hurled equally silly nonsense back? Don’t like it, don’t dish it out. BoJo set the tone for that. And got elected for it. Which tells us everything we need to know about those who voted for him.

Apparently so even if it was only for a day or so until the rescinded it. And its certainly not irrelevant

https://www.irishnews.com/news/healthca ... d-2203719/

Not sure how you can compare rhetoric to concrete actions. Even Taoiseach Micheal Martin was aghast at the move.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
The Tories were already in power remember David Cameron the pro remain PM who set it all in motion, and Theresa May the pro remain PM who ceded to the demands of the EU against the interest of the UK, and finally Boris Johnson who recognized the fallacy what the majority pro remain Parliament and EU were doing to subjugate the EU into vassalage

Different Tory party, that. The party of Cameron, Phil Hammond, George Osborne etc. Small government/low tax etc. Actual conservatives, not UKIP lite.
BoJo’s Tory party is a populist insurgency with its high spending/high tax and culture wars fixation. The party of JRM, Dorries and other folk who’d never get near cabinet in Australia or any other country.
And not that it needs to be pointed out yet again, but the pro-remain parliament was elected by the British people after Brexit. Can’t keep blaming others for the poor choices of UK voters.


Don’t think these needs rehashing views are known earlier.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Everything the fault of the voter’s blah blah blah
What is interesting is the double standards. You champion the Scottish to independence via the electorate that voted in the SNP but rubbish the electorate for voting in a government for actually doing returning sovereignty to the UK within the laws of each entity

I don’t champion Scottish independence; I just refuse to put up with the self-evident hypocrisy of supporting one referendum to leave a union, but not the other. If a referendum on Brexit is acceptable, there’s no logical world in which a referendum on Scottish independence is unacceptable. Both rely on the same basic principle of self-determination.
But yes, it’s the voters’ fault. It’s their fault for voting the way they did in 2016, 2017 and 2019 without fully considering the implications of their votes. It’s not the EUs fault, at any rate. Need to start taking responsibility for one’s own decisions.
Of course, we can see how difficult that can be for the BoJo types. He’s still blaming some invisible “herd” + Rishi Sunak for his ouster, when it was his own lies and behaviour that did it. Democracies get the leaders they deserve.
And history will likely judge this particular phase - during which the Tories have lurched towards the populist right, elected BoJo apparently knowing exactly what he was, before defenestrating him for living up to his critics expectations, and likely appointing Liz Truss as PM, as a reflection of arguably one of the worst phases of UK democracy. Which, in turn, tells us everything we need to know about the voters who enabled this: nothing good.

BoJo didn’t elect himself. Those who did, own the mess he made. And have rightfully earned many a question about the quality of their judgment.


Just more blah blah blah voters fault yada yada yada

The perceived failures of governments are always the fault of the establishment. The leadership has the power and authority to rule over all of society. They hold full responsibility for any political failures susses or failures. For the electorate it is a binary choice on the ballot paper


Ah, the “Establishment” now.

BoJo signed it. BoJo ran on it. Voters voted for him on that basis. A new Parliament ratified it (should probably note here that Parliament is NOT bound by previous Parliament’s decisions, so it doesn’t matter if they were “treasonous rebels” - whatever they thought was irrelevant) - BUT it’s someone else fault.

Not the voters and MPs, who prior to the election, ignored some pretty loud warnings:


August 4, 2019 (4 months before the Dec 2019 election):

Mr Powell, former chief of staff to ex-prime minister Tony Blair, told RTÉ's Marian Finucane show that he believes Mr Johnson is pursuing a Canada-style free trade agreement with the European Union after leaving the bloc which will mean Britain being outside the Single Market and the Custom's Union.

“That means Northern Ireland would have to go back to the original backstop [guarantee against a hard border],” he said.

“There would definitely have to be special measures for Northern Ireland in that case and there would definitely be a border down the Irish Sea.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3976861

October 17, 2019 (~1.5 months before the election)

“As things stand, we could not support what is being suggested on customs and consent issues and there is a lack of clarity on VAT,” DUP leader Arlene Foster and deputy leader Nigel Dodds said in a statement.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN1WW0KE

I don’t know if it was ignorance, incompetence or cynicism that led these voters and future MPs to not heed the warnings, but blaming the “establishment” for what transpired when BoJo negotiated the agreement, used it to get elected, and got his new MPs to ratify (after removing the whip from many former Tory MPs)…. is a bit rich.

Like I said, history will judge these voters and this phase of British democracy harshly. BoJo voters can blame whoever they want, but they either failed or chose not to see the NI-related warning signs that were evident to all of us. The “they said it couldn’t be done” crowd look particularly daft these days, don’t they?
 
A101
Posts: 3239
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Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:51 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
h, the “Establishment” now.
BoJo signed it. BoJo ran on it. Voters voted for him on that basis. A new Parliament ratified it (should probably note here that Parliament is NOT bound by previous Parliament’s decisions, so it doesn’t matter if they were “treasonous rebels” - whatever they thought was irrelevant) - BUT it’s someone else fault.
Not the voters and MPs, who prior to the election, ignored some pretty loud warnings


I like how you are changing the narrative from the voters “should own it” “take responsibility” to now its not the voters or MP.

Establishment refers to “a group in a society exercising power and influence over matters of policy, opinion”

One man is not the government but a collective, as for BJ running on it if he wanted a trade deal that was the cost to which the previous “treasonous rebels” bound his hands he had no other option to run on it no matter what you me or anyone else thought of it.
ElPistolero wrote:
Mr Powell, former chief of staff to ex-prime minister Tony Blair, told RTÉ's Marian Finucane show that he believes Mr Johnson is pursuing a Canada-style free trade agreement with the European Union after leaving the bloc which will mean Britain being outside the Single Market and the Custom's Union.
“That means Northern Ireland would have to go back to the original backstop [guarantee against a hard border],” he said.
“There would definitely have to be special measures for Northern Ireland in that case and there would definitely be a border down the Irish Sea.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3976861

That is his opinion and everyone has got them


ElPistolero wrote:
October 17, 2019 (~1.5 months before the election)
“As things stand, we could not support what is being suggested on customs and consent issues and there is a lack of clarity on VAT,” DUP leader Arlene Foster and deputy leader Nigel Dodds said in a statement.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN1WW0KE

Which is her right and I agree with her
ElPistolero wrote:
I don’t know if it was ignorance, incompetence or cynicism that led these voters and future MPs to not heed the warnings, but blaming the “establishment” for what transpired when BoJo negotiated the agreement, used it to get elected, and got his new MPs to ratify (after removing the whip from many former Tory MPs)…. is a bit rich.

As noted above the establishment was to your opinions on the Voters to “take responsibility” for the government’s failings and in this case the establishment is government and Parliament. You cannot just take a broad brush when talking about voters when it suits,

As I said voters are not responsible for the failures of government, all voters are do is placing their trust in those whom they elected from the ballot paper.

You can also take from the election results that the electorate did not like how the previous parliament was conducting business as I noted before hand the actions of the rebel treasonous parliamentarians did more for BJ and his party success then anything that BJ really did.
 
A101
Posts: 3239
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Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:52 pm

AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
Not what I was say; for BJ once he had no options because of the surrender Act

Repeating a lie does not make it true. But if that's what you need make you feel better about Boris Johnson's then, sure, keep on repeating it.

And which lie would that be?
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:29 pm

A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
Not what I was say; for BJ once he had no options because of the surrender Act

Repeating a lie does not make it true. But if that's what you need make you feel better about Boris Johnson's then, sure, keep on repeating it.

And which lie would that be?



But for the sake of why BJ support the WA

Michel Barnier warns UK will not get trade deal unless Boris Johnson keeps promises


https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/michel-barn ... xit-432645
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:21 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
h, the “Establishment” now.
BoJo signed it. BoJo ran on it. Voters voted for him on that basis. A new Parliament ratified it (should probably note here that Parliament is NOT bound by previous Parliament’s decisions, so it doesn’t matter if they were “treasonous rebels” - whatever they thought was irrelevant) - BUT it’s someone else fault.
Not the voters and MPs, who prior to the election, ignored some pretty loud warnings


I like how you are changing the narrative from the voters “should own it” “take responsibility” to now its not the voters or MP.

Establishment refers to “a group in a society exercising power and influence over matters of policy, opinion”

One man is not the government but a collective, as for BJ running on it if he wanted a trade deal that was the cost to which the previous “treasonous rebels” bound his hands he had no other option to run on it no matter what you me or anyone else thought of it.
ElPistolero wrote:
Mr Powell, former chief of staff to ex-prime minister Tony Blair, told RTÉ's Marian Finucane show that he believes Mr Johnson is pursuing a Canada-style free trade agreement with the European Union after leaving the bloc which will mean Britain being outside the Single Market and the Custom's Union.
“That means Northern Ireland would have to go back to the original backstop [guarantee against a hard border],” he said.
“There would definitely have to be special measures for Northern Ireland in that case and there would definitely be a border down the Irish Sea.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3976861

That is his opinion and everyone has got them


ElPistolero wrote:
October 17, 2019 (~1.5 months before the election)
“As things stand, we could not support what is being suggested on customs and consent issues and there is a lack of clarity on VAT,” DUP leader Arlene Foster and deputy leader Nigel Dodds said in a statement.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN1WW0KE

Which is her right and I agree with her
ElPistolero wrote:
I don’t know if it was ignorance, incompetence or cynicism that led these voters and future MPs to not heed the warnings, but blaming the “establishment” for what transpired when BoJo negotiated the agreement, used it to get elected, and got his new MPs to ratify (after removing the whip from many former Tory MPs)…. is a bit rich.

As noted above the establishment was to your opinions on the Voters to “take responsibility” for the government’s failings and in this case the establishment is government and Parliament. You cannot just take a broad brush when talking about voters when it suits,

As I said voters are not responsible for the failures of government, all voters are do is placing their trust in those whom they elected from the ballot paper.

You can also take from the election results that the electorate did not like how the previous parliament was conducting business as I noted before hand the actions of the rebel treasonous parliamentarians did more for BJ and his party success then anything that BJ really did.


Admittedly having a hard time following your logic.

When informed folk point out in advance that the deal BoJo was pushing would result in an E-W border, it’s dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become fact since then).

When the DUP warn that the agreed deal will result in exactly that, that’s also dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become a fact since then).

Sure, we can dismiss warnings that lay out causality as “opinions”. It would be strange - like telling a doctor that his warning that jumping off a 3 storey building will result in broken bones, is an “opinion” he’s entitled to.

But I guess those are the straws one is compelled to grasp at after failing to heed ample advance warning that this was an inevitable result of whatever they were supporting. Incompetence, arrogance, ignorance, cynicism - the reason behind it does t matter anymore, but it does tell us a lot about BoJo that he categorically misrepresented that reality, and that a lot of voters were willing to believe him hook, line, and sinker despite ample warnings from folk who understand these things.

As for the “establishment” nonsense, I don’t buy into populist conspiracy theories. You can continue raging at this faceless, formless “establishment” that you hold responsible for poor voter judgment (demonstrated by putting their trust in questionable characters/leaders spouting questionable policies/doctrines), but that just amounts to saying that the UK isn’t actually a democracy - that there is no causal relationship between how voters voted and what the government does. There’s really no two ways about it.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:44 pm

The Truss v/s Sunak battle is shaping up nicely as a battle between conservative and populist principles on economics and government.

Liz wants to cut taxes but maintain spending by borrowing (aka big government) … which runs counter to fiscal conservatism. She differs from BoJo not in terms of government size or spending, but only where the money is going to come from (debt, not tax revenue).

Sunak is more traditional fiscal conservative - spend what you earn, and if that means higher taxes for a period of time after a huge spending binge (the pandemic), so be it. Either that, or cut government programs (which a lot of Tory MPs don’t want - especially in the economically challenged areas).

Truss is odds-on to win, and I think we can see why. I don’t think this Tory party membership is going to take kindly to being told about the economic perils of trying to get something for nothing. It’s not the Conservative party of old (or even Thatcher).

Truss’ boosters are already calling it “Project Fear”

“Expect more Project Fear from the Sunak camp. We must put taxes up. We must make the cost of living squeeze worse. We should not stand up to the EU over NI and VAT. We should make business less competitive with higher taxes.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/johnredwood/ ... wsrc%5Etfw

This really is shaping into a battle for the soul of the Tory party - is it still a Conservative party, or is it UKIP-lite? Judging by the populist take on economics, looks like we know the answer.

Might win her the leadership, but is she really going to be able to out-promise Labour, whose economics she is now mimicking? Seems a tall order.
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:16 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
When informed folk point out in advance that the deal BoJo was pushing would result in an E-W border, it’s dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become fact since then).
When the DUP warn that the agreed deal will result in exactly that, that’s also dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become a fact since then).

The reason why its opinion and became facts was for the Surrender Act(Benn Act) which you conveniently fail to mention blocked leaving without a deal and the EU were not willing to make drastic changes to Theresa May rejected WA otherwise we would have left without the NIP and broader WA if the EU continually insisted on it...... those are the facts

To this day no one has said how checks for goods at the border infringes the Belfast Agreement, military security checks yes but goods no.

And even military security checks can be place on the border again if the security situation was needed
ElPistolero wrote:

Sure, we can dismiss warnings that lay out causality as “opinions”. It would be strange - like telling a doctor that his warning that jumping off a 3 storey building will result in broken bones, is an “opinion” he’s entitled to.

People quite regularly jump off three story building under controlled circumstances, there is a possibility they might and that is what’s called an “opinion”
ElPistolero wrote:
But I guess those are the straws one is compelled to grasp at after failing to heed ample advance warning that this was an inevitable result of whatever they were supporting. Incompetence, arrogance, ignorance, cynicism - the reason behind it does t matter anymore, but it does tell us a lot about BoJo that he categorically misrepresented that reality, and that a lot of voters were willing to believe him hook, line, and sinker despite ample warnings from folk who understand these things

It only became inevitable because of the rebellious treasonous Parliamentarians, and its not always about “believing in him hook line and sinker” it has also a lot to do with the opposition party and its policy.
ElPistolero wrote:
As for the “establishment” nonsense, I don’t buy into populist conspiracy theories. You can continue raging at this faceless, formless “establishment” that you hold responsible for poor voter judgment (demonstrated by putting their trust in questionable characters/leaders spouting questionable policies/doctrines), but that just amounts to saying that the UK isn’t actually a democracy - that there is no causal relationship between how voters voted and what the government does. There’s really no two ways about it.

You make me laugh, “populist conspiracy theories” the choice is binary to the electorate they can only vote for who is on the ballot paper and whom they think best represents them as they cannot pick and choose who gets on that ballot paper, just like I did the party policy were the best overall in line to my position than the other party I then look at how my local MP did for my electorate and then I make vote you really only have two choices pick one of those on the ballot or don’t vote. That’s how it works in the UK when I vote. It’s generally the same when I vote in Australia being the only difference is voting is compulsory but that does not actually mean you have to vote for someone you just get you name tick off on the electoral roll to avoid a fine.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
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Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:57 pm

So nothing prevents customs checks on the north south border.

Does anything prevent customs checks in the Irish Sea apart from the DUP?.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 15780
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:29 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
The Truss v/s Sunak battle is shaping up nicely as a battle between conservative and populist principles on economics and government.

Liz wants to cut taxes but maintain spending by borrowing (aka big government) … which runs counter to fiscal conservatism. She differs from BoJo not in terms of government size or spending, but only where the money is going to come from (debt, not tax revenue).

Sunak is more traditional fiscal conservative - spend what you earn, and if that means higher taxes for a period of time after a huge spending binge (the pandemic), so be it. Either that, or cut government programs (which a lot of Tory MPs don’t want - especially in the economically challenged areas).

Truss is odds-on to win, and I think we can see why. I don’t think this Tory party membership is going to take kindly to being told about the economic perils of trying to get something for nothing. It’s not the Conservative party of old (or even Thatcher).

Truss’ boosters are already calling it “Project Fear”

“Expect more Project Fear from the Sunak camp. We must put taxes up. We must make the cost of living squeeze worse. We should not stand up to the EU over NI and VAT. We should make business less competitive with higher taxes.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/johnredwood/ ... wsrc%5Etfw

This really is shaping into a battle for the soul of the Tory party - is it still a Conservative party, or is it UKIP-lite? Judging by the populist take on economics, looks like we know the answer.

Might win her the leadership, but is she really going to be able to out-promise Labour, whose economics she is now mimicking? Seems a tall order.


If the spending doesn't go towards productive investments (infrastructure, education, training, etc.) then we're looking at Italy 2.0
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:38 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So nothing prevents customs checks on the north south border.

Does anything prevent customs checks in the Irish Sea apart from the DUP?.


We are talking about the UK internal market for goods to and from the rUK.

Even when we were in the EU there was an electronic border between ROI/UK

And no if there were no WA nothing stops checks at the border be it passport controls or goods under the GFA
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:18 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
When informed folk point out in advance that the deal BoJo was pushing would result in an E-W border, it’s dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become fact since then).
When the DUP warn that the agreed deal will result in exactly that, that’s also dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become a fact since then).

The reason why its opinion and became facts was for the Surrender Act(Benn Act) which you conveniently fail to mention blocked leaving without a deal and the EU were not willing to make drastic changes to Theresa May rejected WA otherwise we would have left without the NIP and broader WA if the EU continually insisted on it...... those are the facts

To this day no one has said how checks for goods at the border infringes the Belfast Agreement, military security checks yes but goods no.

And even military security checks can be place on the border again if the security situation was needed
ElPistolero wrote:

Sure, we can dismiss warnings that lay out causality as “opinions”. It would be strange - like telling a doctor that his warning that jumping off a 3 storey building will result in broken bones, is an “opinion” he’s entitled to.

People quite regularly jump off three story building under controlled circumstances, there is a possibility they might and that is what’s called an “opinion”
ElPistolero wrote:
But I guess those are the straws one is compelled to grasp at after failing to heed ample advance warning that this was an inevitable result of whatever they were supporting. Incompetence, arrogance, ignorance, cynicism - the reason behind it does t matter anymore, but it does tell us a lot about BoJo that he categorically misrepresented that reality, and that a lot of voters were willing to believe him hook, line, and sinker despite ample warnings from folk who understand these things

It only became inevitable because of the rebellious treasonous Parliamentarians, and its not always about “believing in him hook line and sinker” it has also a lot to do with the opposition party and its policy.
ElPistolero wrote:
As for the “establishment” nonsense, I don’t buy into populist conspiracy theories. You can continue raging at this faceless, formless “establishment” that you hold responsible for poor voter judgment (demonstrated by putting their trust in questionable characters/leaders spouting questionable policies/doctrines), but that just amounts to saying that the UK isn’t actually a democracy - that there is no causal relationship between how voters voted and what the government does. There’s really no two ways about it.

You make me laugh, “populist conspiracy theories” the choice is binary to the electorate they can only vote for who is on the ballot paper and whom they think best represents them as they cannot pick and choose who gets on that ballot paper, just like I did the party policy were the best overall in line to my position than the other party I then look at how my local MP did for my electorate and then I make vote you really only have two choices pick one of those on the ballot or don’t vote. That’s how it works in the UK when I vote. It’s generally the same when I vote in Australia being the only difference is voting is compulsory but that does not actually mean you have to vote for someone you just get you name tick off on the electoral roll to avoid a fine.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill


Am I? Just pointing out that the situation the UK finds itself in today us directly attributable to its voters and the quality of leadership they’ve been electing since Brexit (including, apparently, traitors).

The quality of the output is usually the same as the quality of the input. Bad voters choices-> bad outcomes. BoJo is proof positive - it still boggles my mind that a PM with a majority has been defenestrated by the people he thinks he got elected, for lying once too often. Might be facing a by-election too:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... political/

As low quality leaders go, he’s going to be hard beat. His supporters own that. The “they said it couldn’t be done” crowd etc.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:22 pm

A101 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So nothing prevents customs checks on the north south border.

Does anything prevent customs checks in the Irish Sea apart from the DUP?.


We are talking about the UK internal market for goods to and from the rUK.

Even when we were in the EU there was an electronic border between ROI/UK

And no if there were no WA nothing stops checks at the border be it passport controls or goods under the GFA


So if a hard border goes up, there won’t be any problems in NI?

The nationalists won’t pull a DUP and refuse to return to Stormont (undermining the GFA)?

I’m personally kind of surprised RoI and the EU aren’t talking up an N-S border as an option. They won’t really be dealing with the direction implications of what follow; any trouble that follows will largely be in NI, no?
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:06 am

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So nothing prevents customs checks on the north south border.
Does anything prevent customs checks in the Irish Sea apart from the DUP?.

We are talking about the UK internal market for goods to and from the rUK.
Even when we were in the EU there was an electronic border between ROI/UK
And no if there were no WA nothing stops checks at the border be it passport controls or goods under the GFA

So if a hard border goes up, there won’t be any problems in NI?

Well that depends really what each do in respect to the border doesn’t it. Currently the UK does not do any checks when crossing the frontier, but ROI/Garda do randomly on public transport that crosses the frontier. I can just imagine the outcry if NI did the same thing at the frontier.
ElPistolero wrote:
The nationalists won’t pull a DUP and refuse to return to Stormont (undermining the GFA)?

Who knows what the Nationalist will do that’s for them to decide.

ElPistolero wrote:
I’m personally kind of surprised RoI and the EU aren’t talking up an N-S border as an option. They won’t really be dealing with the direction implications of what follow; any trouble that follows will largely be in NI, no?

I think Leo Varadaker already said they would not put a hard border on, so I would imagine that Micheál Martin holds the same view.
But we are only really talking about goods movement here if the WA wasn’t in force as the CTA would still function, its more complicated for the DUP because whist NI is still part of UK territory it is currently in vassalage to the whims of the EU/ROI that’s why we are seeing the dissent towards the WA.
If NI were not in the EU CU/SM I don’t believe it would be that much different to the friction between Nationalists and Unionist since the GFA inception.
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:20 am

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
When informed folk point out in advance that the deal BoJo was pushing would result in an E-W border, it’s dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become fact since then).
When the DUP warn that the agreed deal will result in exactly that, that’s also dismissed as an “opinion” (notwithstanding that it’s become a fact since then).

The reason why its opinion and became facts was for the Surrender Act(Benn Act) which you conveniently fail to mention blocked leaving without a deal and the EU were not willing to make drastic changes to Theresa May rejected WA otherwise we would have left without the NIP and broader WA if the EU continually insisted on it...... those are the facts

To this day no one has said how checks for goods at the border infringes the Belfast Agreement, military security checks yes but goods no.

And even military security checks can be place on the border again if the security situation was needed
ElPistolero wrote:

Sure, we can dismiss warnings that lay out causality as “opinions”. It would be strange - like telling a doctor that his warning that jumping off a 3 storey building will result in broken bones, is an “opinion” he’s entitled to.

People quite regularly jump off three story building under controlled circumstances, there is a possibility they might and that is what’s called an “opinion”
ElPistolero wrote:
But I guess those are the straws one is compelled to grasp at after failing to heed ample advance warning that this was an inevitable result of whatever they were supporting. Incompetence, arrogance, ignorance, cynicism - the reason behind it does t matter anymore, but it does tell us a lot about BoJo that he categorically misrepresented that reality, and that a lot of voters were willing to believe him hook, line, and sinker despite ample warnings from folk who understand these things

It only became inevitable because of the rebellious treasonous Parliamentarians, and its not always about “believing in him hook line and sinker” it has also a lot to do with the opposition party and its policy.
ElPistolero wrote:
As for the “establishment” nonsense, I don’t buy into populist conspiracy theories. You can continue raging at this faceless, formless “establishment” that you hold responsible for poor voter judgment (demonstrated by putting their trust in questionable characters/leaders spouting questionable policies/doctrines), but that just amounts to saying that the UK isn’t actually a democracy - that there is no causal relationship between how voters voted and what the government does. There’s really no two ways about it.

You make me laugh, “populist conspiracy theories” the choice is binary to the electorate they can only vote for who is on the ballot paper and whom they think best represents them as they cannot pick and choose who gets on that ballot paper, just like I did the party policy were the best overall in line to my position than the other party I then look at how my local MP did for my electorate and then I make vote you really only have two choices pick one of those on the ballot or don’t vote. That’s how it works in the UK when I vote. It’s generally the same when I vote in Australia being the only difference is voting is compulsory but that does not actually mean you have to vote for someone you just get you name tick off on the electoral roll to avoid a fine.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill


Am I? Just pointing out that the situation the UK finds itself in today us directly attributable to its voters and the quality of leadership they’ve been electing since Brexit (including, apparently, traitors).

The quality of the output is usually the same as the quality of the input. Bad voters choices-> bad outcomes. BoJo is proof positive - it still boggles my mind that a PM with a majority has been defenestrated by the people he thinks he got elected, for lying once too often. Might be facing a by-election too:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... political/

As low quality leaders go, he’s going to be hard beat. His supporters own that. The “they said it couldn’t be done” crowd etc.



I more than aware of you dislike of BJ and it appears you disdain towards the electorate and process. we will never agree but its getting repetitious :coffee:
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:13 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
The Truss v/s Sunak battle is shaping up nicely as a battle between conservative and populist principles on economics and government.

Liz wants to cut taxes but maintain spending by borrowing (aka big government) … which runs counter to fiscal conservatism. She differs from BoJo not in terms of government size or spending, but only where the money is going to come from (debt, not tax revenue).

Sunak is more traditional fiscal conservative - spend what you earn, and if that means higher taxes for a period of time after a huge spending binge (the pandemic), so be it. Either that, or cut government programs (which a lot of Tory MPs don’t want - especially in the economically challenged areas).

Truss is odds-on to win, and I think we can see why. I don’t think this Tory party membership is going to take kindly to being told about the economic perils of trying to get something for nothing. It’s not the Conservative party of old (or even Thatcher).

Truss’ boosters are already calling it “Project Fear”

“Expect more Project Fear from the Sunak camp. We must put taxes up. We must make the cost of living squeeze worse. We should not stand up to the EU over NI and VAT. We should make business less competitive with higher taxes.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/johnredwood/ ... wsrc%5Etfw

This really is shaping into a battle for the soul of the Tory party - is it still a Conservative party, or is it UKIP-lite? Judging by the populist take on economics, looks like we know the answer.

Might win her the leadership, but is she really going to be able to out-promise Labour, whose economics she is now mimicking? Seems a tall order.


One is a dopey careerist who will change HER views at the drop of a hat, the other is represents the REAL people who caused the 2008 financial crisis, profited from it, so Disaster Capitalism like project Brexit was always in his wheelhouse.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ry-members
 
pune
Posts: 1538
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:11 pm

As an outsider, I have been following Brexit here, on the web (especially on Twitter), and have been following many business personalities, especially the likes of Mr. Daniel Lambert. https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/ Like many and most businesses, Mr. Lambert is and was in the business of import. The gentleman had been importing wine into the country from France, Italy, and elsewhere. Seeing all the Brexit chaos, it seems 24 hrs. back he has finally left the UK for good, as have many other businessmen have left the UK along with their businesses.

I did have a chat with a gentleman who was a UK resident (of Pakistani origin) in 2015 on a flight internationally where he was very gung-ho about Brexit. And fortunately or unfortunately, he was also into imports. We ended on bad terms as he didn't seem to understand that this would hurt him, when just as an outsider I could clearly see that once you leave any club ( the EU is a club) you lose all the benefits. Only a fool would believe you can leave the club and still have all the benefits. This is where BoJo was successful. But just as you can't turn glass to water or vice-versa the same things many people shared as warnings have become a reality. And while those living in the UK are free to abuse anybody, including the EU they can't run away from things.

Now they are suffering from not having enough people for their farms as well as goods and services. What a fall for a country that ruled the world through its navies.
 
art
Posts: 4965
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:34 pm

I heard yesterday via the radio that a financial supporter of the Conservative party said that if Boris could not stand for election as party leader, the financial support would be withdrawn. Today on LBC radio I heard a Con supporter suggesting that there should be a vote of Conservative party members asking if they wanted Boris to remain as PM. Yes or no? If yes (as I understood what I heard), then there would be no need to put the candidates selected by Conservative MP's - Truss and Sunak - to the vote of party members.

Grass roots supporters versus their elected representatives? Sounds that way to me.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:50 pm

If the party vote Boris back in over the heads of the parliamentary party the fun really starts.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 15780
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:24 pm

The rules would have to be changed. And the rules are made by the party.
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:17 pm

Aesma wrote:
The rules would have to be changed. And the rules are made by the party.


Who think rules are for plebs.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 21252
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:50 pm

Aesma wrote:
The rules would have to be changed. And the rules are made by the party.


We all know what the Tory party thinks of the rules they make. :sarcastic:
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:00 am

Six years to prepare, all warnings from those in a position to know ignored, not even funding the improvements required and they claim it's France's fault? Not quite 'Oven Ready; but I bet it's hot there.
For those who voted for fake sunny uplands with Unicorns, enjoy (and maybe be adults for once and take responsibility for your own choices);
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are-warned

Of course, a reliably stupid reaction from the local Tory MP;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytOBGpsNsis

But before travel, you need this, (remember when the Brexiteers got a stiffy over ditching the red passports, not actually an EU mandate but that's Daily Mail brain rot for you, only to find they contracted the new Brexity British passports, to a French company and what they got were not even the old, old ones!)
The desire to sack many thousands of Civil Servants, who administer this and the DVLA, will help, because you know 'more with less';
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... a-year-ago
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21252
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sun Jul 24, 2022 11:30 am

GDB wrote:
Six years to prepare, all warnings from those in a position to know ignored, not even funding the improvements required and they claim it's France's fault? Not quite 'Oven Ready; but I bet it's hot there.
For those who voted for fake sunny uplands with Unicorns, enjoy (and maybe be adults for once and take responsibility for your own choices);
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are-warned

Of course, a reliably stupid reaction from the local Tory MP;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytOBGpsNsis

But before travel, you need this, (remember when the Brexiteers got a stiffy over ditching the red passports, not actually an EU mandate but that's Daily Mail brain rot for you, only to find they contracted the new Brexity British passports, to a French company and what they got were not even the old, old ones!)
The desire to sack many thousands of Civil Servants, who administer this and the DVLA, will help, because you know 'more with less';
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... a-year-ago


Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

But it's always somebody else's fault. :banghead:
 
pune
Posts: 1538
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:00 pm

GDB wrote:
Six years to prepare, all warnings from those in a position to know ignored, not even funding the improvements required and they claim it's France's fault? Not quite 'Oven Ready; but I bet it's hot there.
For those who voted for fake sunny uplands with Unicorns, enjoy (and maybe be adults for once and take responsibility for your own choices);
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are-warned

Of course, a reliably stupid reaction from the local Tory MP;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytOBGpsNsis

But before travel, you need this, (remember when the Brexiteers got a stiffy over ditching the red passports, not actually an EU mandate but that's Daily Mail brain rot for you, only to find they contracted the new Brexity British passports, to a French company and what they got were not even the old, old ones!)
The desire to sack many thousands of Civil Servants, who administer this and the DVLA, will help, because you know 'more with less';
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... a-year-ago


Read this the other day,

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/polit ... 20-330342/

How much the Govt. fools its own people. All RW seem to have same job, just lie.
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:49 pm

Continuity Conservative Cosplay Cockup in coming;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-thatcher

(If she wants to channel Thatcher she'll push for a thing called the Single Market, yes they really are that ignorant about their supposed idols, witness Johnson's risible, schoolboy error ridden one on Churchill, though with Johnson on the cover).

Reality bites, on the arse;
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -is-brexit
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:31 am

A musical interlude from the madness of those 'debates';
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jucDCo-SNg&t=18s

Note to Americans, some might not be aware that 'fanny' isn't referring to the same part of the body here, (our language, our rules!)
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:51 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62308217

Boris Johnson says meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev was social event

Boris Johnson has said he did not discuss government business at a meeting with ex-KGB officer Alexander Lebedev "as far as I am aware".

The prime minister is facing questions about why no officials were present to take notes at the 2018 meeting with the Russian oligarch.

The PM - who was foreign secretary at the time - says it was a private social event that had not been pre-arranged.


So basically the PM had an unaccompanied, unplanned meeting with an ex KGB Agent, (is there such a thing) and there is no record of what was discussed.

Can anyone really be that stupid?.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:16 pm

Well that was a good debate... [/sarcasm]
The presenter fainted and Truss sort of looked somewhat shocked.
But admittedly most would put in the same situation.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-faints
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:19 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62308217

Boris Johnson says meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev was social event

Boris Johnson has said he did not discuss government business at a meeting with ex-KGB officer Alexander Lebedev "as far as I am aware".

The prime minister is facing questions about why no officials were present to take notes at the 2018 meeting with the Russian oligarch.

The PM - who was foreign secretary at the time - says it was a private social event that had not been pre-arranged.


So basically the PM had an unaccompanied, unplanned meeting with an ex KGB Agent, (is there such a thing) and there is no record of what was discussed.

Can anyone really be that stupid?.
Was that 'as far as he was aware' the same as 'he didn't think he was at a party' and had to get someone else to investigate....?
 
User avatar
Grizzly410
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:55 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62308217

Boris Johnson says meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev was social event

Boris Johnson has said he did not discuss government business at a meeting with ex-KGB officer Alexander Lebedev "as far as I am aware".

The prime minister is facing questions about why no officials were present to take notes at the 2018 meeting with the Russian oligarch.

The PM - who was foreign secretary at the time - says it was a private social event that had not been pre-arranged.


So basically the PM had an unaccompanied, unplanned meeting with an ex KGB Agent, (is there such a thing) and there is no record of what was discussed.

Can anyone really be that stupid?.


"There's no such thing as an ex-KGB agent." Vlad
;)
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:58 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62308217

Boris Johnson says meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev was social event

Boris Johnson has said he did not discuss government business at a meeting with ex-KGB officer Alexander Lebedev "as far as I am aware".

The prime minister is facing questions about why no officials were present to take notes at the 2018 meeting with the Russian oligarch.

The PM - who was foreign secretary at the time - says it was a private social event that had not been pre-arranged.


So basically the PM had an unaccompanied, unplanned meeting with an ex KGB Agent, (is there such a thing) and there is no record of what was discussed.

Can anyone really be that stupid?.


Spoiled, weak, vain, ambitious way beyond his abilities, perfect Kompromat.
In the 1970's they'd go after secretaries of senior NATO personnel who were lonely, with 'Romeos'.
Now they could go after a man child of a senior Minister and future PM, same year as Salisbury too, just by throwing money at an already rich man.

The rise of Bride Of Chucky, Continuity Stupidity?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ar-cartoon
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21252
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:12 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62308217

Boris Johnson says meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev was social event

Boris Johnson has said he did not discuss government business at a meeting with ex-KGB officer Alexander Lebedev "as far as I am aware".

The prime minister is facing questions about why no officials were present to take notes at the 2018 meeting with the Russian oligarch.

The PM - who was foreign secretary at the time - says it was a private social event that had not been pre-arranged.


So basically the PM had an unaccompanied, unplanned meeting with an ex KGB Agent, (is there such a thing) and there is no record of what was discussed.

Can anyone really be that stupid?.


“As far as I am aware” - well Boris has shown a very high level of unawareness, so who knows wtf happened at that ‘social event’.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62308217

Boris Johnson says meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev was social event

Boris Johnson has said he did not discuss government business at a meeting with ex-KGB officer Alexander Lebedev "as far as I am aware".

The prime minister is facing questions about why no officials were present to take notes at the 2018 meeting with the Russian oligarch.

The PM - who was foreign secretary at the time - says it was a private social event that had not been pre-arranged.


So basically the PM had an unaccompanied, unplanned meeting with an ex KGB Agent, (is there such a thing) and there is no record of what was discussed.

Can anyone really be that stupid?.


“As far as I am aware” - well Boris has shown a very high level of unawareness, so who knows wtf happened at that ‘social event’.


The possibilities are quite scary.
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:30 am

To expand on Johnson's careless potential treason;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obD_kaNcptc

To the final questions posed, why not a big story, welcome to the UK media, dominated by offshore Tory donor billionaires.
Leave voters, look upon your idol Bozzymandias and despair, duped again, right?
And you think you are so patriotic.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2807
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:33 pm

Speaking of NATO:

Boris Johnson is being touted as a potential new boss of Nato after quitting No10 - amid warnings from Tories that he needs to stop encouraging a 'Trumpish fantasy' about staying in power.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ister.html

Separately, Anne Applebaum, who’s long established herself as the scourge of Russian and Eastern European dictators, has written a withering piece about Boris and the Tories. The Tories are going to hate this one, because she’s incredibly well-respected on both sides of the ocean (and worldwide) and has long been affiliated with conservative thought:

“If British politics were a Faulkner novel, Brexit would be the long-ago tragedy that haunts all of the main characters, even if they hadn’t been born when it happened. Why did a story about a jolly drinking session his cabinet held during COVID lockdown do so much damage to Johnson? Partly because he was already suspected of dishonesty about Brexit, and “Partygate” reconfirmed the image of him as a liar. Why did his Conservative colleagues ultimately decide not to remove him as prime minister when they voted last month? Partly because Johnson is so closely associated with Brexit that a rejection of him looked like a rejection of Brexit, the policy that the party still claims as its greatest achievement.”



“No previous Conservative government would have allowed many of these mediocrities in the cabinet at all. Public loyalty to Johnson and to the lies he told are what got them their job, whether they originally believed in Brexit or not. Now we can watch them jump ship. Soon enough, they’ll no doubt swear an equally passionate loyalty to someone and something else.“

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... re/661514/

With the impending selection of Truss, the transformation of the Tories into a lite version of Trump populism will be complete. Erosion of trust in in longstanding institutions - BoE, courts, Whitehall, Parliament (even have posters here, who really should know better, have been ranting about the “establishment”), no appetite for hard choices (borrow to spend while cutting taxes, without acknowledging supply side problems/too much money chasing too few goods), no willingness to acknowledge or address the problems they created (Cues at the French border posts in the southeast).

In keeping with the populist creed: it’s always someone else’s fault.
 
GDB
Posts: 15704
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:36 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Speaking of NATO:

Boris Johnson is being touted as a potential new boss of Nato after quitting No10 - amid warnings from Tories that he needs to stop encouraging a 'Trumpish fantasy' about staying in power.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ister.html

Separately, Anne Applebaum, who’s long established herself as the scourge of Russian and Eastern European dictators, has written a withering piece about Boris and the Tories. The Tories are going to hate this one, because she’s incredibly well-respected on both sides of the ocean (and worldwide) and has long been affiliated with conservative thought:

“If British politics were a Faulkner novel, Brexit would be the long-ago tragedy that haunts all of the main characters, even if they hadn’t been born when it happened. Why did a story about a jolly drinking session his cabinet held during COVID lockdown do so much damage to Johnson? Partly because he was already suspected of dishonesty about Brexit, and “Partygate” reconfirmed the image of him as a liar. Why did his Conservative colleagues ultimately decide not to remove him as prime minister when they voted last month? Partly because Johnson is so closely associated with Brexit that a rejection of him looked like a rejection of Brexit, the policy that the party still claims as its greatest achievement.”



“No previous Conservative government would have allowed many of these mediocrities in the cabinet at all. Public loyalty to Johnson and to the lies he told are what got them their job, whether they originally believed in Brexit or not. Now we can watch them jump ship. Soon enough, they’ll no doubt swear an equally passionate loyalty to someone and something else.“

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... re/661514/

With the impending selection of Truss, the transformation of the Tories into a lite version of Trump populism will be complete. Erosion of trust in in longstanding institutions - BoE, courts, Whitehall, Parliament (even have posters here, who really should know better, have been ranting about the “establishment”), no appetite for hard choices (borrow to spend while cutting taxes, without acknowledging supply side problems/too much money chasing too few goods), no willingness to acknowledge or address the problems they created (Cues at the French border posts in the southeast).

In keeping with the populist creed: it’s always someone else’s fault.


A perfect Daily Mail story, bigging up their boy Johnson, pretending the link to his Russian buddies and funders does not exist, well they pretend all his other corruption isn’t even a thing.
You can just imagine the reaction of NATO members including the current US administration, ‘a shape shifting creep’ being the likely most complementary name for him from them.
No.
He’s lazy, as untrustworthy as you can imagine and almost certainly been compromised.
Though he advanced Russian foreign policy aims via Brexit prior to that.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 21252
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boris Johnson done as Prime Minister?

Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:24 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A further indication of just how much trouble is that there's a very good chance we'll end up with Liz Truss as PM.

Cart before the horse mate……


Or not. :wave:
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