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Kiwirob
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:11 am

DN4CAAD wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The problems and issues of those who are Trans are different from a Lesbian or Gay male from access to public bathrooms to being on sports teams.Trying to be a 'big tent' for a range of gender identities may cause division eventually in the LGTBQ community, the general public and political leaders.
A related issue is 'Pride washing', how Pride has become a marketing opportunity for big consumer product and services companies, some of which do business in countries with severe anti-LGTBQ and other terrible human rights policies. This distracts from the very real issues LGTBQ's still face in their daily lives.



There is a small but vocal minority of lesbians and bisexual women who exclude trans women from the community. So for this reason, I can understand and agree with your comment on division due to big tent desires


A trans women who hasn’t had bottom surgery is basically a male, why would a lesbian female be attracted to a female with a penis?

It’s similar to Elain Page’s wife leaving her after she became Elliot Page, she took a lot of heat when she left Elliot, she married a gay women why would she want to stay with Elain now that he’s Elliot?
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The problems and issues of those who are Trans are different from a Lesbian or Gay male from access to public bathrooms to being on sports teams.Trying to be a 'big tent' for a range of gender identities may cause division eventually in the LGTBQ community, the general public and political leaders.
A related issue is 'Pride washing', how Pride has become a marketing opportunity for big consumer product and services companies, some of which do business in countries with severe anti-LGTBQ and other terrible human rights policies. This distracts from the very real issues LGTBQ's still face in their daily lives.



There is a small but vocal minority of lesbians and bisexual women who exclude trans women from the community. So for this reason, I can understand and agree with your comment on division due to big tent desires


A trans women who hasn’t had bottom surgery is basically a male, why would a lesbian female be attracted to a female with a penis?

It’s similar to Elain Page’s wife leaving her after she became Elliot Page, she took a lot of heat when she left Elliot, she married a gay women why would she want to stay with Elain now that he’s Elliot?


Perhaps they got divorced because of other reasons? Just because someone transitions is not automatic cause for divorce. Sometimes, yes but not always.

Back in the day, when I was more active in the community, I never heard or saw any lesbians or bi women excluding trans women. I am sure they exist but I never saw any.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.


BINGO.

Identity politics have fragmented our nation more than anything. And it makes the oligarchs happy, because they can pander, promise, and drive the wedges deeper all whilst playing everyone against one another to their own gain and to the growth of government. It's transparent.


A gay friend and his husband - both very liberal - recently told me they have been told more and more at Pride events that they’re “the straight white males of the LGBTQIA+ community” and “aren’t gay enough.” And this is coming from other people who identify as LGBTQIA+.

He asked me, “How is it that now we are considered the oppressors?” It’s true - when identity politics relies on groups of people you claim are victims and others are their oppressors, at some point, you run out of victims and they become the new oppressors to a newly anointed victim group.

Identity politics divides all and unites no one.


Were your friends barred from Pride? No? That means they are not oppressed. Just like any cis hetero people are not barred from Pride. Pride includes everyone. We are still being oppressed by cis hetero evangelicals. As long they continue playing identity politics, we will still have Pride.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:33 pm

For all that is being said here I’m not going to get into it. Too much to argue.

As a gay man, the parades are so boring to me. Just a mile of politicians and non affiliated churches.

And then you have all these straight ghetto gangs taking over, just going in to cause fights and steal. No thanks.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
Were your friends barred from Pride? No? That means they are not oppressed. Just like any cis hetero people are not barred from Pride. Pride includes everyone. We are still being oppressed by cis hetero evangelicals. As long they continue playing identity politics, we will still have Pride.


Barred? No. Were they flat out told they weren’t welcome and weren’t really part of the community, and asked why they’d bothered to come?

Yes. Multiple times. And always from someone who identified as more “aggrieved” than them, mostly trans, and others joined in.

Quoting my friend, “We were made to feel like unwelcome intruders at an event made possible by decades of being ashamed of who we are, and finally overcame that. Or so we thought.”
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:02 am

EA CO AS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Were your friends barred from Pride? No? That means they are not oppressed. Just like any cis hetero people are not barred from Pride. Pride includes everyone. We are still being oppressed by cis hetero evangelicals. As long they continue playing identity politics, we will still have Pride.


Barred? No. Were they flat out told they weren’t welcome and weren’t really part of the community, and asked why they’d bothered to come?

Yes. Multiple times. And always from someone who identified as more “aggrieved” than them, mostly trans, and others joined in.

Quoting my friend, “We were made to feel like unwelcome intruders at an event made possible by decades of being ashamed of who we are, and finally overcame that. Or so we thought.”


Did YOU ever experience this or just "your friends"? Did YOU ever get run out of a Pride gathering for being or just "your friends"? My friends have been thrown out of restaurants and churches for being. Just for trying to live their lives. My friends have told me so,
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:40 am

seb146 wrote:
Did YOU ever experience this or just "your friends"? Did YOU ever get run out of a Pride gathering for being or just "your friends"? My friends have been thrown out of restaurants and churches for being. Just for trying to live their lives. My friends have told me so,



Ahh, deflection. What, can’t handle the fact that large elements of your community are just as intolerant and bigoted as the people you claim have oppressed you for years?

But as a gay man, you’re no longer the victim. You’re the oppressor of the trans community. They’re the media darlings now, and you - well, you’re just another white guy.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:36 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Did YOU ever experience this or just "your friends"? Did YOU ever get run out of a Pride gathering for being or just "your friends"? My friends have been thrown out of restaurants and churches for being. Just for trying to live their lives. My friends have told me so,



Ahh, deflection. What, can’t handle the fact that large elements of your community are just as intolerant and bigoted as the people you claim have oppressed you for years?

But as a gay man, you’re no longer the victim. You’re the oppressor of the trans community. They’re the media darlings now, and you - well, you’re just another white guy.


What "deflection"? Gay men are still oppressed and at risk of having our rights taken from us. Yes, trans people must be equal. No one is debating that. Except your friends. If you look beyond your friends, you will find a vast majority of gays, bis and others support trans equality. But, your friends somehow speak for all of us.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:27 am

seb146 wrote:
Yes, trans people must be equal. No one is debating that. Except your friends. If you look beyond your friends, you will find a vast majority of gays, bis and others support trans equality. But, your friends somehow speak for all of us.


No one is debating whether or not trans people must be equal, including my friends. It’s the trans segment of the LGBTQIA+ community and their allies/advocates that are loudly shaming gay men as no longer being part of the community solely because they’re “mainstream” now.

My gay friends are for full inclusivity for all, yet have this very extremely militant subset of their community who is being bigoted and intolerant.

They actually asked, “So this is what it feels like to be a conservative, shunned and loudly shouted down?”

Yeah. Welcome to the group; we have a big open tent.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:23 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Yes, trans people must be equal. No one is debating that. Except your friends. If you look beyond your friends, you will find a vast majority of gays, bis and others support trans equality. But, your friends somehow speak for all of us.


No one is debating whether or not trans people must be equal, including my friends. It’s the trans segment of the LGBTQIA+ community and their allies/advocates that are loudly shaming gay men as no longer being part of the community solely because they’re “mainstream” now.

My gay friends are for full inclusivity for all, yet have this very extremely militant subset of their community who is being bigoted and intolerant.

They actually asked, “So this is what it feels like to be a conservative, shunned and loudly shouted down?”

Yeah. Welcome to the group; we have a big open tent.


"my friends say" is about as useful an argument as "both sides do it". It is second hand information, which can not be used. Gay men are still shunned and persecuted in right wing areas. Let's not talk about "your friends" and what "your friends" say. Let's look at what is actually happening.

https://hatecrime.osce.org/index.php/un ... es-america

Attacks against LGBTQ people are going up.

This happened in my back yard, a suburb of "liberal" Eugene:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/oregon-m ... ng-gay-man
https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/mark ... ing-people

And, yes, we are all under the same big tent. "Your friends" may say they feel like outsiders, but I would be willing to bet "your friends" still support equality for all.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:30 pm

seb146 wrote:
"my friends say" is about as useful an argument as "both sides do it". It is second hand information, which can not be used. Gay men are still shunned and persecuted in right wing areas. Let's not talk about "your friends" and what "your friends" say. Let's look at what is actually happening.


What is actually happening is gay men are also being shunned by other gays. For “not being gay enough.” Or for “only” being gay, not being gay AND something else. My friends’ experience is a data point, and sadly, there are increasing numbers like theirs. Don’t obfuscate by dismissing as secondhand like their experience doesn’t matter, and accept that fact that large elements of your community are just as intolerant and bigoted as those you’d (correctly) stand against.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:26 am

[*]
Kiwirob wrote:

A trans women who hasn’t had bottom surgery is basically a male, why would a lesbian female be attracted to a female with a penis?

It’s similar to Elain Page’s wife leaving her after she became Elliot Page, she took a lot of heat when she left Elliot, she married a gay women why would she want to stay with Elain now that he’s Elliot?


It is a difficult thing for any couple to face. A couple may have been happily together in a heterosexual cisgender relationship for many years, may have been married with children, then one partner comes out as transgender. A difficult period where the future of the relationship must be determined. Does the non transitioning partner, who may have considered themselves fully heterosexual prior, now change their identity and remain with their partner?

I’ve watched many videos on this topic and it goes in both directions, some couples remain together and even become closer upon one partner coming out. Albeit I’ve only seen this happening in certain combinations. Usually a prior heterosexual cisgender couple wherein the man comes out as a transgender woman and his partner then identifies as a gay or bi woman. Or a prior lesbian female and female couple wherein one woman comes out as a transgender man and then becomes a male partner to the female in a heterosexual couple.

I’ve never seen an instance where in a prior cisgender hetero couple the woman comes out as a trans man and his male partner remains in the relationship, basically becoming a gay man himself.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:56 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
[*]
Kiwirob wrote:

A trans women who hasn’t had bottom surgery is basically a male, why would a lesbian female be attracted to a female with a penis?

It’s similar to Elain Page’s wife leaving her after she became Elliot Page, she took a lot of heat when she left Elliot, she married a gay women why would she want to stay with Elain now that he’s Elliot?


It is a difficult thing for any couple to face. A couple may have been happily together in a heterosexual cisgender relationship for many years, may have been married with children, then one partner comes out as transgender. A difficult period where the future of the relationship must be determined. Does the non transitioning partner, who may have considered themselves fully heterosexual prior, now change their identity and remain with their partner?

I’ve watched many videos on this topic and it goes in both directions, some couples remain together and even become closer upon one partner coming out. Albeit I’ve only seen this happening in certain combinations. Usually a prior heterosexual cisgender couple wherein the man comes out as a transgender woman and his partner then identifies as a gay or bi woman. Or a prior lesbian female and female couple wherein one woman comes out as a transgender man and then becomes a male partner to the female in a heterosexual couple.

I’ve never seen an instance where in a prior cisgender hetero couple the woman comes out as a trans man and his male partner remains in the relationship, basically becoming a gay man himself.


American society has accepted women being with women for a very long time. So, a man transitioning is not really a big deal, as it would end up being two women together. Society has accepted that and women are comfortable to "come out" as bi or gay. Men, on the other hand, are still not comfortable to talk about even exploring. We have to stay so far apart from other men walking down the street or not be in a locker room or bathroom too long or not hug another guy. Some things are starting to become acceptable, but there is still a stigma. I would stay with the brosband if he decided to transition. For me, it is about the person. If that would make him happier, do it and I will be right here.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
We have to stay so far apart from other men walking down the street or not be in a locker room or bathroom too long or not hug another guy..

I don't live in the US, but it couldn't be THAT bad, surely. Men, straight and gay, hug each other all the time (or at least they did before the pandemic). Are you living in a very conservative neighbourhood?
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:15 am

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We have to stay so far apart from other men walking down the street or not be in a locker room or bathroom too long or not hug another guy..

I don't live in the US, but it couldn't be THAT bad, surely. Men, straight and gay, hug each other all the time (or at least they did before the pandemic). Are you living in a very conservative neighbourhood?


Yes. Much of Oregon is very conservative. Even in Portland, people have been beaten recently for simply being.

https://www.koin.com/news/study-oregon- ... te-crimes/

Newberg, in Oregon's wine country, south of Portland, has told students they can not show any signs of "antifa" or BLM or LGBTQ alliance

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/11/04/ ... n-schools/
 
apodino
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:58 am

seb146 wrote:

Back in the day, when I was more active in the community, I never heard or saw any lesbians or bi women excluding trans women. I am sure they exist but I never saw any.


There have been several articles in conservative media actually stating that the Trans movement is hurting the Gay community. Here are a couple from Breitbart that I found (it's breitbart, so take it with a grain of salt as there is an agenda here) (views expressed in articles not necessarily my own.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/05/14/trans-craziness-has-ruined-the-credibility-of-gay-activism-says-stonewall-founder/

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/04/16/transgender-demands-fuel-gay-conservative-alliance/

I will also point out that Martina Navratilova, a well known lesbian, has spoken out against Trans Women competing against other female athletes.


To the point of the original post I will say this as a straight cis white male. I get what pride was originally for and that was worth fighting for. What pride has morphed into, is corporate America using the LGBT community to line their own pockets at the expense of main street. In other words, the Rich are using pride to get richer off the commercialization of pride, and the LGBT community, and the rest of main street for that matter, continues to get screwed. I do not personally think this is fair to the Gay community myself, and I will not give my money to what appears to be nothing more than lip service that is just another way for the elite to continue to screw us over.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:36 am

seb146 wrote:
Yes. Much of Oregon is very conservative. Even in Portland, people have been beaten recently for simply being.

https://www.koin.com/news/study-oregon- ... te-crimes/

Newberg, in Oregon's wine country, south of Portland, has told students they can not show any signs of "antifa" or BLM or LGBTQ alliance

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/11/04/ ... n-schools/

I can't access the first article here, so can't comment. As to the banning of images “relating to a political, quasi-political, or controversial topic.”, I don't see how that could be considered discriminatory. It's a minefield, so probably best kept out of classrooms.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:23 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Yes. Much of Oregon is very conservative. Even in Portland, people have been beaten recently for simply being.

https://www.koin.com/news/study-oregon- ... te-crimes/

Newberg, in Oregon's wine country, south of Portland, has told students they can not show any signs of "antifa" or BLM or LGBTQ alliance

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/11/04/ ... n-schools/

I can't access the first article here, so can't comment. As to the banning of images “relating to a political, quasi-political, or controversial topic.”, I don't see how that could be considered discriminatory. It's a minefield, so probably best kept out of classrooms.


The school board specifically banned BLM, "antifa", and LGBTQ images but are silent on neo-Nazi or Confederate or right wing images.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:26 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Back in the day, when I was more active in the community, I never heard or saw any lesbians or bi women excluding trans women. I am sure they exist but I never saw any.


There have been several articles in conservative media actually stating that the Trans movement is hurting the Gay community. Here are a couple from Breitbart that I found (it's breitbart, so take it with a grain of salt as there is an agenda here) (views expressed in articles not necessarily my own.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/05/14/trans-craziness-has-ruined-the-credibility-of-gay-activism-says-stonewall-founder/

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/04/16/transgender-demands-fuel-gay-conservative-alliance/

I will also point out that Martina Navratilova, a well known lesbian, has spoken out against Trans Women competing against other female athletes.


To the point of the original post I will say this as a straight cis white male. I get what pride was originally for and that was worth fighting for. What pride has morphed into, is corporate America using the LGBT community to line their own pockets at the expense of main street. In other words, the Rich are using pride to get richer off the commercialization of pride, and the LGBT community, and the rest of main street for that matter, continues to get screwed. I do not personally think this is fair to the Gay community myself, and I will not give my money to what appears to be nothing more than lip service that is just another way for the elite to continue to screw us over.


Breitbart will spin, spin, spin away once they find one person from a group that fits their narrative and start screaming "THEY ALL BELIEVE THIS!!!" when there is almost no truth to that.

As far as Pride celebrations, many in the LGBTQ community have been frustrated with multi-national corporations coopting and making a quick buck on it. It's nice to be visible and accepted, if only for one month, but, as soon as July 1 hits, we are back in the shadows.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
The school board specifically banned BLM, "antifa", and LGBTQ images but are silent on neo-Nazi or Confederate or right wing images.

Well that's crazy. The schoolroom is no place for politics, and certainly not anything as extreme as neo-Nazism. :shock:
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:02 am

apodino wrote:
I will also point out that Martina Navratilova, a well known lesbian, has spoken out against Trans Women competing against other female athletes.


And yet somehow, as arguably one of the most famous lesbians in sports history, and a supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights, she's been branded as a "bigot" for asking legitimate questions about trans women in sports.

By branding Martina Navratilova a bigot, the trans lobby shows how intolerant and extreme it has become

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2019/ ... se-gender/

Again, you've got the media's newly-anointed victim group claiming people who are "just gay" or "just lesbians" are now oppressing them. The division caused by identity politics has to stop.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:46 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
apodino wrote:
I will also point out that Martina Navratilova, a well known lesbian, has spoken out against Trans Women competing against other female athletes.


And yet somehow, as arguably one of the most famous lesbians in sports history, and a supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights, she's been branded as a "bigot" for asking legitimate questions about trans women in sports.

By branding Martina Navratilova a bigot, the trans lobby shows how intolerant and extreme it has become

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2019/ ... se-gender/

Again, you've got the media's newly-anointed victim group claiming people who are "just gay" or "just lesbians" are now oppressing them. The division caused by identity politics has to stop.


Actually, Martina is working with athletes to figure out a way trans players can compete

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstacey ... ec24475b2c

But, again, she is a lesbian and has enjoyed a sense of peace that we gay men or trans people do not enjoy.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:18 pm

seb146 wrote:
But, again, she is a lesbian and has enjoyed a sense of peace that we gay men or trans people do not enjoy.

I apologize if I missed something but how does being a lesbian allow her to have "enjoyed a sense of peace that we gay men or trans people do not"?


Edited to add:
Ahh found it:
seb146 wrote:
American society has accepted women being with women for a very long time. So, a man transitioning is not really a big deal, as it would end up being two women together. Society has accepted that and women are comfortable to "come out" as bi or gay. Men, on the other hand, are still not comfortable to talk about even exploring. We have to stay so far apart from other men walking down the street or not be in a locker room or bathroom too long or not hug another guy. Some things are starting to become acceptable, but there is still a stigma. I would stay with the brosband if he decided to transition. For me, it is about the person. If that would make him happier, do it and I will be right here.


I think you are painting with a enormous brush and making assumptions that you as a gay man cannot know regarding to how threatened lesbians have felt for years. I would add that in general woman have histrionically been the more vulnerable and attacked gender versus men. The data supports this.

And yes I know that gay men are also attacked at a far higher rate, attacks that are not always prosecuted appropriately, than men in general. It all is terrible and unacceptable.

I kinda don't know where else to begin with your assumption/statement. It is part of the whole "identity politics" problem that is being highlighted in this thread. That one population of whatever "group" is "not the same" or "doesn't have the same problems" to have the right to be part of the "group" anymore. It is all terribly divisive.

One other thing I will note is that lesbian suffer the same legal limbo or lack of rights as any male couple.

Tugg
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:47 am

Tugger wrote:
I kinda don't know where else to begin with your assumption/statement. It is part of the whole "identity politics" problem that is being highlighted in this thread. That one population of whatever "group" is "not the same" or "doesn't have the same problems" to have the right to be part of the "group" anymore. It is all terribly divisive.


:checkmark:

I’m glad somebody gets it. I wish more people did.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:11 pm

Well, as a white bloke who’s straight as an arrow, I’ve been welcomed with open arms at the last 3 Pride’s I’ve attended. They have, without exception, provided for one hell of a party, where the only requirement seemed to be one’s willingness to be open and get completely hammered.

Did find that I’m apparently not sending out any gay vibes, and therefore wasn’t “approached” a single time. My mate, however, who’s also boringly straight must be sending out some signals, as he was constantly the recipient of rather naughty proposals. But it bothered neither of us, and we just enjoyed the party, the vibe and the great atmosphere.

All is not well and rosy, however, as the Pride parade passes through a neighbourhood with a high proportion of immigrants of the Muslim persuasions, some of which does seem to have a problem taking part or, if they don’t approve, looking the other way. Well, in my experience those who are most vocally anti-gay are usually self-loathing gays. Which is sad for them, of course, but it’s no excuse.

Anyway, back to Pride: It needs to be held, and it needs to expand to every corner of the world until such time people are free to be what they are and love who they will, and are no longer subjected to discrimination because of it.
Last edited by B777LRF on Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:12 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I kinda don't know where else to begin with your assumption/statement. It is part of the whole "identity politics" problem that is being highlighted in this thread. That one population of whatever "group" is "not the same" or "doesn't have the same problems" to have the right to be part of the "group" anymore. It is all terribly divisive.


:checkmark:

I’m glad somebody gets it. I wish more people did.


I am so sick of this right wing lie of "identity politics". It needs to stop. Republicans claim everyone is equal under the law. But, when targeted groups, like LGBTQ (which include lesbians) and minorities and Muslims point out we are not equal and why, all of a sudden, we need to stop with "identity politics". How about, instead of us stopping "identity politics" Republicans treat ALL Americans equally? That means not taking away our rights and not targeting us for wanting "special rights" like the ones already enjoyed by cis hetero white Republicans? Instead of brushing things off with a right wing catch-phrase, do something.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
I am so sick of this right wing lie of "identity politics". It needs to stop

It's hardly a lie: identity politics are real. The LGBTQ+ movement thrives on them! They change all the time, and it gets confusing. Nonbinary, genderqueer, agender, gender-expansive, gender fluid, gender non-conforming all mean basically the same thing: people who don't identify as either gender. We thrive on this crap! And now we are supposed to add “Heterosexual privilege” to our list of grievances, as if our sense of victimhood wasn’t big enough already. :roll:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 469059001/

It would be funny if it wan’t sad: the more freedom and acceptance we acquire, the more oppressions we discover. It seems we cannot exist without some sort of chip on our shoulder.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24946
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:22 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I am so sick of this right wing lie of "identity politics". It needs to stop

It's hardly a lie: identity politics are real. The LGBTQ+ movement thrives on them! They change all the time, and it gets confusing. Nonbinary, genderqueer, agender, gender-expansive, gender fluid, gender non-conforming all mean basically the same thing: people who don't identify as either gender. We thrive on this crap! And now we are supposed to add “Heterosexual privilege” to our list of grievances, as if our sense of victimhood wasn’t big enough already. :roll:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 469059001/

It would be funny if it wan’t sad: the more freedom and acceptance we acquire, the more oppressions we discover. It seems we cannot exist without some sort of chip on our shoulder.


It sound more to me that we in the LGBTQ community are trying to accept everyone for who they are, who they identify as, and demanding everyone do the same. It's almost as if we want people to be left alone to live as they want without big government telling us consenting adults how to live our best lives. Doesn't sound like "identity politics" to me, but, rather, demanding equality and acceptance for all.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:20 pm

seb146 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It's almost as if we want people to be left alone to live as they want without big government telling us consenting adults how to live our best lives.

In what way is government telling you how to live your best life? Can you give a few examples?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:43 pm

seb146 wrote:
Pride is NOT like the United States. In the United States, straight white "christian" men are offended by anything not checking all of those boxes. With pride, we don't care as long as you are respectful of each other. And everyone under the LGBTQ umbrella has been and continues to be.

Let's be honest...for some, Pride is the perfect opportunity to find offense with anything. The Straight Christian folks get offended with anything rainbow; but even on our side, we have folks who get offended for not being represented or voicing an opinion.

For example: try going to a Pride event and saying that people walking around just in underwear or kink items (dog leash, harnesses, etc.) is probably not helping the cause and see how it turns out. At first it used to be LGB (sexual orientations), then the T got added...now I don't even know what the acronym is anymore. If I say LGBT+ I'm wrong; if I say LGBTQ+, still wrong. Last I checked we're at LGBTIQAPD and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm told that I'm still wrong.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:07 pm

seb146 wrote:
It sound more to me that we in the LGBTQ community are trying to accept everyone for who they are, who they identify as, and demanding everyone do the same. It's almost as if we want people to be left alone to live as they want without big government telling us consenting adults how to live our best lives. Doesn't sound like "identity politics" to me, but, rather, demanding equality and acceptance for all.

If you go down the road of demanding things of people you are asking for trouble. The best -- and, I would argue, the most successful -- way to get people on your side is through persuasion.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:20 pm

Let me be clear, I am good with "Pride" and the pride movement overall. I have watched, marched in parades over the years, as has my wife who sits on a local council, and have kids that participate now. I love and respect those that are/identify as genderqueer of every stripe. I am good with people being who they are. Those who are gay, ace, trans, questioning, prefer whatever pronouns to be used, are not special or different. They are NORMAL people, I know and tell anyone who has an issue or concern.

Of course I have also gotten an earful about how I am wrong to use the word normal.... sigh, can't win.

But I am open to the realities and am happy to acknowledge them and point them out and discuss anything about them. Be it political or identity or financial or medical or military, whatever. As I have mentioned many times here, I am perfectly content with pissing off every "side" in any situation as I have found I don't have a choice, someone always has a different opinion somewhere and I can't please or satisfy everyone with mine.

Tugg
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:20 am

AeroVega wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:

In what way is government telling you how to live your best life? Can you give a few examples?


Women can not compete in women's sporting events. Women can not use women's bathrooms. MAGA SCOTUS said they will work to overturn marriage equality

https://cosmosmagazine.com/people/trans ... -in-sport/
https://www.ncsl.org/research/education ... 51130.aspx
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/suprem ... -rcna35228

Not to mention women are now afraid to go to OB/GYN to have fetal tissue removed for fear of being charged with abortion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... ancy-care/
https://time.com/6190782/roe-overturned ... scarriage/
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:25 am

Tugger wrote:
Let me be clear, I am good with "Pride" and the pride movement overall. I have watched, marched in parades over the years, as has my wife who sits on a local council, and have kids that participate now. I love and respect those that are/identify as genderqueer of every stripe. I am good with people being who they are. Those who are gay, ace, trans, questioning, prefer whatever pronouns to be used, are not special or different. They are NORMAL people, I know and tell anyone who has an issue or concern.

Of course I have also gotten an earful about how I am wrong to use the word normal.... sigh, can't win.

But I am open to the realities and am happy to acknowledge them and point them out and discuss anything about them. Be it political or identity or financial or medical or military, whatever. As I have mentioned many times here, I am perfectly content with pissing off every "side" in any situation as I have found I don't have a choice, someone always has a different opinion somewhere and I can't please or satisfy everyone with mine.

Tugg


Maybe it is the qualifier "normal". There may be a stigma in some other people's minds that adding "normal" to "people" is suggesting there are two classes. How about simply dropping "normal" and just saying "people"? I have found that works wonders for me and "my" side.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:30 am

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It sound more to me that we in the LGBTQ community are trying to accept everyone for who they are, who they identify as, and demanding everyone do the same. It's almost as if we want people to be left alone to live as they want without big government telling us consenting adults how to live our best lives. Doesn't sound like "identity politics" to me, but, rather, demanding equality and acceptance for all.

If you go down the road of demanding things of people you are asking for trouble. The best -- and, I would argue, the most successful -- way to get people on your side is through persuasion.


The demand I am asking is equality. Nothing special. THEY are making it all about "special" rights. Rights they already enjoy. That is the problem. MAGAs and Republicans think not being fired for being is a special right. The rest of us want it to be an equal right. That they enjoy. That is what we are demanding. Equality. We must do that. We must demand equality. We must demand what they have enjoyed for decades. Centuries, even. We must enjoy that equality. To live as we want. As they have. That should be our right. They hate that idea. They are fighting that demand. Let us live without being murdered for being. Let us live without being fired. Let us live without being evicted. That should be our right. And they want to take that from us. We can not let them take equality from us.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:22 am

seb146 wrote:
The demand I am asking is equality. Nothing special. THEY are making it all about "special" rights. Rights they already enjoy. That is the problem. MAGAs and Republicans think not being fired for being is a special right. The rest of us want it to be an equal right. That they enjoy. That is what we are demanding. Equality. We must do that. We must demand equality. We must demand what they have enjoyed for decades. Centuries, even. We must enjoy that equality. To live as we want. As they have. That should be our right. They hate that idea. They are fighting that demand. Let us live without being murdered for being. Let us live without being fired. Let us live without being evicted. That should be our right. And they want to take that from us. We can not let them take equality from us.

You're not living in Russia! :roll:

I'm not up to speed on US law, but you have pretty-much the same as we have here. I can't think of anything a straight man living in Ireland in 2022 can do that a gay man cannot. We're not living in the 1950s anymore. We have all sorts of laws to protect us. We are now in a situation we could never have dreamed of even 30 years ago. And some people are still not happy . . . But I digress, the "demand" I was referring to was not about the "equality" part of your post, more the "acceptance":

seb146 wrote:
Doesn't sound like "identity politics" to me, but, rather, demanding equality and acceptance for all.

It's only right and proper that we demand equality under the law, but you can't legislate for acceptance. There will always be people who do not accept us, and that is their right too, whether we like ti or not. They do not have the right to beat us up or discriminate against us, but they do have a right to their opinions.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I am so sick of this right wing lie of "identity politics". It needs to stop

It's hardly a lie: identity politics are real. The LGBTQ+ movement thrives on them! They change all the time, and it gets confusing. Nonbinary, genderqueer, agender, gender-expansive, gender fluid, gender non-conforming all mean basically the same thing: people who don't identify as either gender. We thrive on this crap! And now we are supposed to add “Heterosexual privilege” to our list of grievances, as if our sense of victimhood wasn’t big enough already. :roll:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 469059001/

It would be funny if it wan’t sad: the more freedom and acceptance we acquire, the more oppressions we discover. It seems we cannot exist without some sort of chip on our shoulder.


It sound more to me that we in the LGBTQ community are trying to accept everyone for who they are, who they identify as, and demanding everyone do the same. It's almost as if we want people to be left alone to live as they want without big government telling us consenting adults how to live our best lives. Doesn't sound like "identity politics" to me, but, rather, demanding equality and acceptance for all.


My acceptance of a person has just about zero to do with any LGBTO+ issues, and I have a feeling I am in the silent majority. The one "trait" I can think of that makes a difference to me would be pedophilia. So I don't think it is just the LGTBQ+ community that wants to accept everyone for who they are. Its not the big bad Republicans or Democrats that are driving the hate per se, its the fringe on both sides, the far left and the far right. Both parties have problems on the extremes.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24946
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:32 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
It's hardly a lie: identity politics are real. The LGBTQ+ movement thrives on them! They change all the time, and it gets confusing. Nonbinary, genderqueer, agender, gender-expansive, gender fluid, gender non-conforming all mean basically the same thing: people who don't identify as either gender. We thrive on this crap! And now we are supposed to add “Heterosexual privilege” to our list of grievances, as if our sense of victimhood wasn’t big enough already. :roll:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 469059001/

It would be funny if it wan’t sad: the more freedom and acceptance we acquire, the more oppressions we discover. It seems we cannot exist without some sort of chip on our shoulder.


It sound more to me that we in the LGBTQ community are trying to accept everyone for who they are, who they identify as, and demanding everyone do the same. It's almost as if we want people to be left alone to live as they want without big government telling us consenting adults how to live our best lives. Doesn't sound like "identity politics" to me, but, rather, demanding equality and acceptance for all.


My acceptance of a person has just about zero to do with any LGBTO+ issues, and I have a feeling I am in the silent majority. The one "trait" I can think of that makes a difference to me would be pedophilia. So I don't think it is just the LGTBQ+ community that wants to accept everyone for who they are. Its not the big bad Republicans or Democrats that are driving the hate per se, its the fringe on both sides, the far left and the far right. Both parties have problems on the extremes.


Both sides do not do it, so just stop. REPUBLICANS are the ones who are legislating hate and intolerance. Not Democrats. REPUBLICANS. Republicans scream "IDENTITY POLITICS!" and "SPECIAL RIGHTS!" whenever legislation is proposed to give equal rights to LGBTQ people. Republicans are coming after marriage equality. They are still fighting against LGBTQ equality in general.

So, no, both sides do not do it.

The biggest "issue" for us in the LGBTQ community is equality, not so much acceptance. Let us work without getting fired for being. Let us rent without kicking us out for being. Let us marry without denying us that right. Equality is our issue.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:50 pm

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

It sound more to me that we in the LGBTQ community are trying to accept everyone for who they are, who they identify as, and demanding everyone do the same. It's almost as if we want people to be left alone to live as they want without big government telling us consenting adults how to live our best lives. Doesn't sound like "identity politics" to me, but, rather, demanding equality and acceptance for all.


My acceptance of a person has just about zero to do with any LGBTO+ issues, and I have a feeling I am in the silent majority. The one "trait" I can think of that makes a difference to me would be pedophilia. So I don't think it is just the LGTBQ+ community that wants to accept everyone for who they are. Its not the big bad Republicans or Democrats that are driving the hate per se, its the fringe on both sides, the far left and the far right. Both parties have problems on the extremes.


Both sides do not do it, so just stop. REPUBLICANS are the ones who are legislating hate and intolerance. Not Democrats. REPUBLICANS. Republicans scream "IDENTITY POLITICS!" and "SPECIAL RIGHTS!" whenever legislation is proposed to give equal rights to LGBTQ people. Republicans are coming after marriage equality. They are still fighting against LGBTQ equality in general.

So, no, both sides do not do it.

The biggest "issue" for us in the LGBTQ community is equality, not so much acceptance. Let us work without getting fired for being. Let us rent without kicking us out for being. Let us marry without denying us that right. Equality is our issue.


I hate to tell you, but if you could possible look honestly at the Dems, they do in fact do it too.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1915
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:40 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
apodino wrote:
I will also point out that Martina Navratilova, a well known lesbian, has spoken out against Trans Women competing against other female athletes.


And yet somehow, as arguably one of the most famous lesbians in sports history, and a supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights, she's been branded as a "bigot" for asking legitimate questions about trans women in sports.

By branding Martina Navratilova a bigot, the trans lobby shows how intolerant and extreme it has become

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2019/ ... se-gender/

Again, you've got the media's newly-anointed victim group claiming people who are "just gay" or "just lesbians" are now oppressing them. The division caused by identity politics has to stop.


It’s about dignity. In life, not everybody has it. You can lose it. And after you lose it, it is best not to lash out at others and try to blame them, or position yourself as an “equal” of theirs who is somehow being oppressed. Just my thoughts on the case you brought up.
 
AirframeAS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:25 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Think of the Rainbow Flag as the US flag and all the other flags as State Flags. United under one banner but identifying as more. Well, back when the US was more United anyway, but that's another topic.


This just reminded me of that Eddie Izzard joke thing he said about flags...... LOL!

YouTube it! It is hilarious!!!!
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:07 pm

AirframeAS wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Think of the Rainbow Flag as the US flag and all the other flags as State Flags. United under one banner but identifying as more. Well, back when the US was more United anyway, but that's another topic.


This just reminded me of that Eddie Izzard joke thing he said about flags...... LOL!

YouTube it! It is hilarious!!!!


No need, I've owned the DVD for years! ;)
 
TSS
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Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:08 am

EA CO AS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
"my friends say" is about as useful an argument as "both sides do it". It is second hand information, which can not be used. Gay men are still shunned and persecuted in right wing areas. Let's not talk about "your friends" and what "your friends" say. Let's look at what is actually happening.


What is actually happening is gay men are also being shunned by other gays. For “not being gay enough.” Or for “only” being gay, not being gay AND something else. My friends’ experience is a data point, and sadly, there are increasing numbers like theirs. Don’t obfuscate by dismissing as secondhand like their experience doesn’t matter, and accept that fact that large elements of your community are just as intolerant and bigoted as those you’d (correctly) stand against.


Your friends are not alone in their experiences, I've run into exactly the same thing, including but not limited to having the phrase "not gay enough" applied to me. What's really infuriating is that it's usually done by people who weren't even a glimmer in their father's eyes back when I came out as gay, back when "coming out" involved a great deal more than just adding a Pride flag and a list of "preferred pronouns" (AKA vanity pronouns) to one's Twitter profile and being told how "stunning and brave" you are for doing so. For some time now there has been growing pressure within the LGBTQ+ community for gay guys to conform to every bad gay stereotype there is, and those who don't conform are shunned and unapologetically labeled as "not gay enough"... Strange and highly hypocritical behavior from a group who claim to be all about acceptance.
 
pune
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:52 am

Braybuddy wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I do not know what the I, A and + stand for. Can someone fill me in? It's starting to be quite the alphabet soup.......

As far as I know the I is for intersex, and A is for asexual. So the LGBTQIA+ now seems to be a broad label that basically covers anything that isn't straight. Might be just as easy to label it the non-heterosexual community, but then there's no such thing. But you can rest assured that there will be more letters added as more splinter groups are formed. To be honest I gave up caring years ago. The more identities there are the more alienated I feel. Coming next: straight lesbians (yes, I'm serious).

This is where I bale out. :roll:


What do those words actually mean ?

Intersex means what? From what I could gather people have parts from more than one sex. I can't imagine the kind of issues those people might be going through.

Asexual means what? Seems it's about people who have or can have sex without feeling attracted to somebody.Again dunno how people function there. Even for basic things such as food or whatnot we ponder and think a number of times before making a choice.
 
pune
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:27 am

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The school board specifically banned BLM, "antifa", and LGBTQ images but are silent on neo-Nazi or Confederate or right wing images.

Well that's crazy. The schoolroom is no place for politics, and certainly not anything as extreme as neo-Nazism. :shock:


Here, in India, they have taken and even entered made-up history. They have made movies like Kashmir files that have no relation to reality as to what happened. I know this is probably OT lot of extremism is being put up and fed to young minds without an ounce of responsibility :(
 
bennett123
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:42 am

On this issue about Transgender Women and sport.

My understanding is that there is Male and Female races because being male was an advantage in terms of performance.

Does a woman who was previously a man lose that advantage.
 
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Braybuddy
Topic Author
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:36 pm

pune wrote:
What do those words actually mean ?
Intersex means what? From what I could gather people have parts from more than one sex. I can't imagine the kind of issues those people might be going through.
Asexual means what? Seems it's about people who have or can have sex without feeling attracted to somebody.Again dunno how people function there. Even for basic things such as food or whatnot we ponder and think a number of times before making a choice.

You're right on intersex. The word used to be hermaphrodite, but that's probably offensive now. When I was a kid, a family used to visit our neighbours. We used to play with them, and one of them was a girl called Jean. Then Jean suddenly disappeared. Some time later Eugene came to visit as part of the same family. Turns out he was born with underdeveloped genitals, and was assumed to be a girl. Then his male genitals appeared and went on to live his life as a boy. The rest of his upbringing was perfectly normal, and he had no problem going on to marry and father children. Strangely, the same thing happened to his younger brother. Asexual is a term to describe someone who has no sexual attraction to anybody.

bennett123 wrote:
On this issue about Transgender Women and sport.

My understanding is that there is Male and Female races because being male was an advantage in terms of performance.

Does a woman who was previously a man lose that advantage.

That's the argument. Some claim it does, others not. It seems to be settling on someone who has had hormone treatment after puberty. The obvious answer would be to have a separate category for trans people, but that is opposed as being "transphobic".

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-tra ... a-58583988

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/22/spor ... -fina.html
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14418
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
apodino wrote:
I will also point out that Martina Navratilova, a well known lesbian, has spoken out against Trans Women competing against other female athletes.


And yet somehow, as arguably one of the most famous lesbians in sports history, and a supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights, she's been branded as a "bigot" for asking legitimate questions about trans women in sports.

By branding Martina Navratilova a bigot, the trans lobby shows how intolerant and extreme it has become

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2019/ ... se-gender/

Again, you've got the media's newly-anointed victim group claiming people who are "just gay" or "just lesbians" are now oppressing them. The division caused by identity politics has to stop.


Actually, Martina is working with athletes to figure out a way trans players can compete

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstacey ... ec24475b2c

But, again, she is a lesbian and has enjoyed a sense of peace that we gay men or trans people do not enjoy.


Martina had to leave her home country because of her sexuality. She hasn’t had it easy, I suggest you read her biography.

Swimming, Rugby Union and Rugby League have all banned trans women athletes who have transitioned after going through male puberty, Sebastian Coe has all but announced the IAAF will follow along. Make trans a category in the para games movement, they get To compete against people with similar biology, problem solved.
 
pune
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

And yet somehow, as arguably one of the most famous lesbians in sports history, and a supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights, she's been branded as a "bigot" for asking legitimate questions about trans women in sports.

By branding Martina Navratilova a bigot, the trans lobby shows how intolerant and extreme it has become

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2019/ ... se-gender/

Again, you've got the media's newly-anointed victim group claiming people who are "just gay" or "just lesbians" are now oppressing them. The division caused by identity politics has to stop.


Actually, Martina is working with athletes to figure out a way trans players can compete

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstacey ... ec24475b2c

But, again, she is a lesbian and has enjoyed a sense of peace that we gay men or trans people do not enjoy.


Martina had to leave her home country because of her sexuality. She hasn’t had it easy, I suggest you read her biography.

Swimming, Rugby Union, and Rugby League have all banned trans women athletes who have transitioned after going through male puberty, Sebastian Coe has all but announced the IAAF will follow along. Make trans a category in the para games movement, they get To compete against people with similar biology, problem solved.


Somewhat clueless, why couldn't there be trans-people games within the same Olympics and whatnot. Wouldn't this give more opportunities to more people to bring glory to their country? Also more ads to games and some for this cause. I do know that some people just use labeling like greenwashing without actually doing anything to make their products better (PR speaks).
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14418
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:42 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
AirframeAS wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Think of the Rainbow Flag as the US flag and all the other flags as State Flags. United under one banner but identifying as more. Well, back when the US was more United anyway, but that's another topic.


This just reminded me of that Eddie Izzard joke thing he said about flags...... LOL!

YouTube it! It is hilarious!!!!


No need, I've owned the DVD for years! ;)


We had a member who used to say the DVD were responsible for everything, if you own the DVD Spyhunter will come after you.

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