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LCDFlight
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:10 pm

I think there should be a global vote on these questions, inclusive of diverse geographies, histories and cultural views. Each Californian gets 1 vote. Each Pakistani gets 1 vote. Each Brazilian, Indonesian, Saudi Arabian, Nigerian, or UK citizen gets 1 vote. Each Bangladeshi and each Congolese gets a vote. Each Indian and Chinese person gets their vote. We should not assume some people’s opinion is somehow more valid than others.

Then let’s proceed according to what an inclusive, diverse sample of people believe is appropriate. And if not, then not.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:29 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I think there should be a global vote on these questions, inclusive of diverse geographies, histories and cultural views. Each Californian gets 1 vote. Each Pakistani gets 1 vote. Each Brazilian, Indonesian, Saudi Arabian, Nigerian, or UK citizen gets 1 vote. Each Bangladeshi and each Congolese gets a vote. Each Indian and Chinese person gets their vote. We should not assume some people’s opinion is somehow more valid than others.

Then let’s proceed according to what an inclusive, diverse sample of people believe is appropriate. And if not, then not.

That however leads to "tyranny of the majority" and while it may sound appropriate, it means minorities can be and are subjugated.

And this discussion is about a minority population that has suffered subjugation and discrimination for thousands of years.

The whole purpose of "Pride" is that people that are of this population can freely and openly "be proud". Of who they are, what they wear, who their partners are, their families etc. It doesn't mean others must accept them but for a moment at least they are proud, take pride in themselves publicly. That is a hard thing for many in this population to do (many still hide, remain silent, feel shame in what they feel/who they are, or "in the closet").

Tugg
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1924
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I think there should be a global vote on these questions, inclusive of diverse geographies, histories and cultural views. Each Californian gets 1 vote. Each Pakistani gets 1 vote. Each Brazilian, Indonesian, Saudi Arabian, Nigerian, or UK citizen gets 1 vote. Each Bangladeshi and each Congolese gets a vote. Each Indian and Chinese person gets their vote. We should not assume some people’s opinion is somehow more valid than others.

Then let’s proceed according to what an inclusive, diverse sample of people believe is appropriate. And if not, then not.

That however leads to "tyranny of the majority" and while it may sound appropriate, it means minorities can be and are subjugated.

And this discussion is about a minority population that has suffered subjugation and discrimination for thousands of years.

The whole purpose of "Pride" is that people that are of this population can freely and openly "be proud". Of who they are, what they wear, who their partners are, their families etc. It doesn't mean others must accept them but for a moment at least they are proud, take pride in themselves publicly. That is a hard thing for many in this population to do (many still hide, remain silent, feel shame in what they feel/who they are, or "in the closet").

Tugg


I agree that sometimes minorities should be protected from tyranny of the majority. I certainly think Pride is a great thing, or at least was at one time.

But that same logic can be misused. Not every person deserves special protection for everything they do.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:25 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Tugger wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I think there should be a global vote on these questions, inclusive of diverse geographies, histories and cultural views. Each Californian gets 1 vote. Each Pakistani gets 1 vote. Each Brazilian, Indonesian, Saudi Arabian, Nigerian, or UK citizen gets 1 vote. Each Bangladeshi and each Congolese gets a vote. Each Indian and Chinese person gets their vote. We should not assume some people’s opinion is somehow more valid than others.

Then let’s proceed according to what an inclusive, diverse sample of people believe is appropriate. And if not, then not.

That however leads to "tyranny of the majority" and while it may sound appropriate, it means minorities can be and are subjugated.

And this discussion is about a minority population that has suffered subjugation and discrimination for thousands of years.

The whole purpose of "Pride" is that people that are of this population can freely and openly "be proud". Of who they are, what they wear, who their partners are, their families etc. It doesn't mean others must accept them but for a moment at least they are proud, take pride in themselves publicly. That is a hard thing for many in this population to do (many still hide, remain silent, feel shame in what they feel/who they are, or "in the closet").

Tugg


I agree that sometimes minorities should be protected from tyranny of the majority. I certainly think Pride is a great thing, or at least was at one time.

But that same logic can be misused. Not every person deserves special protection for everything they do.

Agreed.

But are we talking anything about giving anyone "special protection for everything they do"? I don't think we are, nor that taking pride in oneself and pride events offer that.

Tugg
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:38 pm

pune wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, Martina is working with athletes to figure out a way trans players can compete

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstacey ... ec24475b2c

But, again, she is a lesbian and has enjoyed a sense of peace that we gay men or trans people do not enjoy.


Martina had to leave her home country because of her sexuality. She hasn’t had it easy, I suggest you read her biography.

Swimming, Rugby Union, and Rugby League have all banned trans women athletes who have transitioned after going through male puberty, Sebastian Coe has all but announced the IAAF will follow along. Make trans a category in the para games movement, they get To compete against people with similar biology, problem solved.


Somewhat clueless, why couldn't there be trans-people games within the same Olympics and whatnot. Wouldn't this give more opportunities to more people to bring glory to their country? Also more ads to games and some for this cause. I do know that some people just use labeling like greenwashing without actually doing anything to make their products better (PR speaks).


Never gonna happen. Gay people are persecuted across the world so how do you think they treat trans people? Places like Russia and Iran and Pakistan?

All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:19 pm

AtomicGarden wrote:
I know a gay man who considers himself homophobic :D at first I thought he was joking but he really can't stand other gay men. You can't get more schizo than that



Internalized homophobia is common. There’s a large group of gay men who actively discriminate against more effeminate men.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:22 pm

seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:31 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:

You're thinking of aromantic. Asexual means not being sexually attracted to others.

This is the problem with identity politics, it dissects every human emotion and feeling into some subset of emotions and feelings which further gets dissected into even more subsets of emotions and feelings and everyone wants to be celebrated for every emotion and feeling they have which gets to the point where people just make stuff up now.

The majority of people don't really care what others identify as or what turns them on or doesn't - like the old saying goes, "what ever turns your crank" - but having to celebrate each and every identity and feeling as some sort of accomplish meant won't do anything, in fact, it might do more harm than good.

I don't understand hate or extremism, I don't understand where it comes from - I don't see why its so difficult to accept and respect anyone and everyone for who they are, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

On the other hand, I could care less if there is difference between being sexually attracted to someone or just romantically or if there is even some difference - simply don't care. Live your life, I respect you for who you are, no need to celebrate your choices just I find no need to celebrate mine.



“No need to celebrate your choices”

No one wakes up one morning and says “I want to be gay.” Is your sexuality a choice? No, you’re just attracted to who you’re attracted to. Obviously a minority that’s finally gaining acceptance after thousands of years of brutal persecution has every right to celebrate. I’d say the lgbtq community has accomplished a hell of a lot over the past century, so don’t rain on their parade. They’re not celebrating their choices, they’re celebrating equality and freedom.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:38 pm

Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg




Except trans women do not win against their competitors the majority of the time. It’s not like they’re slashing record after record and leaving their competition in the dust. This just isn’t happening so people need to stop the hysterics. This is about exclusion under the guise of fairness. Notice how the outrage is always focused on trans women. No one cares about trans men using the bathroom or playing in sports. Trans women are unfairly targeted, excluded and remanded to the fringes of society because people can’t get over effeminacy in males.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:51 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg




Except trans women do not win against their competitors the majority of the time. It’s not like they’re slashing record after record and leaving their competition in the dust. This just isn’t happening so people need to stop the hysterics. This is about exclusion under the guise of fairness. Notice how the outrage is always focused on trans women. No one cares about trans men using the bathroom or playing in sports. Trans women are unfairly targeted, excluded and remanded to the fringes of society because people can’t get over effeminacy in males.

While I agree mostly with you and what you note (it is very true), in high skill sports where muscle mass is critical, there is an issue. But yes, it is made outsized of the true overall impact, but it is there. I say address it, calmly and with science and move on. Make it a non-issue so the squawkers are left looking stupid.

However I also understand the desire and right of a person to pursue their dreams in a sports and the... the insult almost and degradation of being returned to "who your aren't" (anymore). But as I said, I do not see an easy answer.

Our physical elements and abilities are realities that everyone must deal with in life. Whether a low muscle-mass cis-male or a female with a more masculine appearance or naturally high testosterone levels, to trans community persons who have made their choice on how to live their life. Regardless of what science or a person can do, our bodies are all affected one way or another and affect us in turn.

Tugg
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:31 pm

pune wrote:
Somewhat clueless, why couldn't there be trans-people games within the same Olympics and whatnot. Wouldn't this give more opportunities to more people to bring glory to their country? Also more ads to games and some for this cause. I do know that some people just use labeling like greenwashing without actually doing anything to make their products better (PR speaks).

It's the obvious solution and would solve the argument overnight. Sportspeople are VERY competitive by their nature, and losing can be very difficult, particularly after years of training. I don't understand why anyone would want to participate in a competition if they have, or are perceived to have, an automatic advantage. They know there will always be questions asked. The sad thing is that LGBTQ+ activists don't realise the harm they are doing: this is already creating a backlash against the trans community.

The LGBTQ+ community adores diversity, yet in sports wants to eradicate the history of a person who has transitioned, which is particularly strange as it otherwise fully supports trans people. The fact that someone is trans should be a thing to be celebrated, not denied, and creating a separate category for people who have transitioned makes perfect sense.
Last edited by Braybuddy on Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
bennett123
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:32 pm

pune wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, Martina is working with athletes to figure out a way trans players can compete

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstacey ... ec24475b2c

But, again, she is a lesbian and has enjoyed a sense of peace that we gay men or trans people do not enjoy.


Martina had to leave her home country because of her sexuality. She hasn’t had it easy, I suggest you read her biography.

Swimming, Rugby Union, and Rugby League have all banned trans women athletes who have transitioned after going through male puberty, Sebastian Coe has all but announced the IAAF will follow along. Make trans a category in the para games movement, they get To compete against people with similar biology, problem solved.


Somewhat clueless, why couldn't there be trans-people games within the same Olympics and whatnot. Wouldn't this give more opportunities to more people to bring glory to their country? Also more ads to games and some for this cause. I do know that some people just use labeling like greenwashing without actually doing anything to make their products better (PR speaks).


Competing on what basis?.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:56 pm

Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg


A friend’s 13 year old daughter plays in a competitive girls soccer league. In one game, two boys of the same age claimed they identified as female, were permitted to play, and injured two of the girls on the opposing team, one of whom was my friend’s daughter.

Then, not 90 minutes later, they played another match as boys on an all-boys team.

If seb doesn’t see the issue, it’s because he’s choosing not to.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:23 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
[...]The fact that someone is trans should be a thing to be celebrated, not denied, and creating a separate category for people who have transitioned makes perfect sense.

Except many trans people that I know and have met do not think of that "other self" as being who they are or how they were ever meant to be. There is nothing to celebrate as that prior entity caused much anguish.

And don't think I am saying this goes for all trans-people, some are perfectly happy to discuss their life and transition but many are not and want nothing brought up regarding the earlier self (to the point that families have to remove all pictures etc. of the prior person). Transitioning is deeply personal (of course) and one really can't compare one person's experience to another.

And on the topic of pride, I absolutely want people to have pride in themselves and for themselves. But pride really needs to be internal, though external reinforcement is often important if not critical.

Tugg
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:19 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg




Except trans women do not win against their competitors the majority of the time. It’s not like they’re slashing record after record and leaving their competition in the dust. This just isn’t happening so people need to stop the hysterics. This is about exclusion under the guise of fairness. Notice how the outrage is always focused on trans women. No one cares about trans men using the bathroom or playing in sports. Trans women are unfairly targeted, excluded and remanded to the fringes of society because people can’t get over effeminacy in males.


They're not dominating every sport because there hasn't been that many trans women competitors in sport to date, those who have entered have cleaned up, it's much better to sort this out now before the floodgates open and women's sport if forever dominated by failed male athletes.

Nobody cares about trans men because they are not a threat to hegemony, they come with (in the sporting context only) inferior female bodies, men aren't intimidated by women, that flows through to trans men as well, they're just women who look like men.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:01 am

Tugger wrote:
And don't think I am saying this goes for all trans-people, some are perfectly happy to discuss their life and transition but many are not and want nothing brought up regarding the earlier self (to the point that families have to remove all pictures etc. of the prior person). Transitioning is deeply personal (of course) and one really can't compare one person's experience to another.

And on the topic of pride, I absolutely want people to have pride in themselves and for themselves. But pride really needs to be internal, though external reinforcement is often important if not critical.

Tugg

Of course it's deeply personal for every individual, and if someone who has transitioned wants to eradicate their history that should be respected. But I'm talking about participating in sports, where, as far as I know, if you are a trans athlete it has to be declared, for obvious reasons, or is already well-known. These transitioners obviously have no problem about their previous identity being known.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:21 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
They're not dominating every sport because there hasn't been that many trans women competitors in sport to date, those who have entered have cleaned up, it's much better to sort this out now before the floodgates open and women's sport if forever dominated by failed male athletes.

Nobody cares about trans men because they are not a threat to hegemony, they come with (in the sporting context only) inferior female bodies, men aren't intimidated by women, that flows through to trans men as well, they're just women who look like men.

Rude and belittling statement. But it's your opinion, representing who you are.

And then this is why there is a problem. Disrespect.


Braybuddy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And don't think I am saying this goes for all trans-people, some are perfectly happy to discuss their life and transition but many are not and want nothing brought up regarding the earlier self (to the point that families have to remove all pictures etc. of the prior person). Transitioning is deeply personal (of course) and one really can't compare one person's experience to another.

And on the topic of pride, I absolutely want people to have pride in themselves and for themselves. But pride really needs to be internal, though external reinforcement is often important if not critical.

Tugg

Of course it's deeply personal for every individual, and if someone who has transitioned wants to eradicate their history that should be respected. But I'm talking about participating in sports, where, as far as I know, if you are a trans athlete it has to be declared, for obvious reasons, or is already well-known. These transitioners obviously have no problem about their previous identity being known.

Gotcha. :thumbsup:

Tugg
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:14 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg


A friend’s 13 year old daughter plays in a competitive girls soccer league. In one game, two boys of the same age claimed they identified as female, were permitted to play, and injured two of the girls on the opposing team, one of whom was my friend’s daughter.

Then, not 90 minutes later, they played another match as boys on an all-boys team.

If seb doesn’t see the issue, it’s because he’s choosing not to.


"I have a friend" again. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It may very well happen in middle school. We are talking college athletics, pro athletics, and real life. It's a shame Republicans are hyper focused on one woman who won one race one time instead of securing the rights of all Americans. They don't even want to do that. Look at the vote that just took place in the House. All but 47 Republicans voted against marriage equality. Read: they do not want equality for all, just equality for who they are comfortable with.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
"I have a friend" again. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It may very well happen in middle school. We are talking college athletics, pro athletics, and real life.


Got it, so when it happens to this girl, it doesn’t matter. Because by your standard it’s not “real life.” Nice.

You’re setting women back generations by acting like it’s no big deal; you’re saying females have to sit back and accept what’s happening because the male says so; he’s decided he identifies as female for that match, so the females don’t have a say - they have to let that bigger, stronger person play, and unfairly compete against generally weaker biological females.

Or else they’re intolerant bigots. Right?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:00 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
They're not dominating every sport because there hasn't been that many trans women competitors in sport to date, those who have entered have cleaned up, it's much better to sort this out now before the floodgates open and women's sport if forever dominated by failed male athletes.

Nobody cares about trans men because they are not a threat to hegemony, they come with (in the sporting context only) inferior female bodies, men aren't intimidated by women, that flows through to trans men as well, they're just women who look like men.

Rude and belittling statement. But it's your opinion, representing who you are.

And then this is why there is a problem. Disrespect.


Tugg


What’s rude and belittling, trans women who transitioned after going through male puberty need to be banned from female sport, which is happening as sporting associations are closing the doors.

Nobody cares about trans mens in sport as they don’t pose a threat to men. There’s nothing rude of belittling about that it’s just the truth. I don’t have any issue with trans men competing in mens sport.
 
bennett123
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:35 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
They're not dominating every sport because there hasn't been that many trans women competitors in sport to date, those who have entered have cleaned up, it's much better to sort this out now before the floodgates open and women's sport if forever dominated by failed male athletes.

Nobody cares about trans men because they are not a threat to hegemony, they come with (in the sporting context only) inferior female bodies, men aren't intimidated by women, that flows through to trans men as well, they're just women who look like men.

Rude and belittling statement. But it's your opinion, representing who you are.

And then this is why there is a problem. Disrespect.


Tugg


What’s rude and belittling, trans women who transitioned after going through male puberty need to be banned from female sport, which is happening as sporting associations are closing the doors.

Nobody cares about trans mens in sport as they don’t pose a threat to men. There’s nothing rude of belittling about that it’s just the truth. I don’t have any issue with trans men competing in mens sport.


If we accept that men and women not compete against each other because men would have an unfair advantage then it makes sense.

A woman who used to be a man would have that advantage, a man who used to be a woman would already be at a disadvantage.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:05 am

bennett123 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Rude and belittling statement. But it's your opinion, representing who you are.

And then this is why there is a problem. Disrespect.


Tugg


What’s rude and belittling, trans women who transitioned after going through male puberty need to be banned from female sport, which is happening as sporting associations are closing the doors.

Nobody cares about trans mens in sport as they don’t pose a threat to men. There’s nothing rude of belittling about that it’s just the truth. I don’t have any issue with trans men competing in mens sport.


If we accept that men and women not compete against each other because men would have an unfair advantage then it makes sense.

A woman who used to be a man would have that advantage, a man who used to be a woman would already be at a disadvantage.


Which is sports with some minor exceptions (equestrian and motorsport) are segregated by biological sex. Men almost always have the advantage.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:32 pm

Notice no one is offended by women competing in men's sports. In fact, that is encouraged. We had women playing college football and professional hockey and managing baseball... all inspiring and should be encouraged. But, for some reason, a woman who was born male but has spent years transitioning is sick and must be stopped.

This whole idea of "trans women are actually men and should be treated as such" by the right is exactly why we need Pride now more than ever.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:52 pm

seb146 wrote:
Notice no one is offended by women competing in men's sports. In fact, that is encouraged. We had women playing college football and professional hockey and managing baseball... all inspiring and should be encouraged. But, for some reason, a woman who was born male but has spent years transitioning is sick and must be stopped.

This whole idea of "trans women are actually men and should be treated as such" by the right is exactly why we need Pride now more than ever.


You’re so blinded by your agenda that you completely miss the point. Women competing against men or working in male sports management isn’t an issue, but men who transition after puberty are blessed with all the advantages males have over females making the playing field decidedly uneven for biological women. It’s misogyny at its finest.

Trans women are biologically men, you can’t change that.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
This whole idea of "trans women are actually men and should be treated as such" by the right is exactly why we need Pride now more than ever.


Nothing to do with left or right. Be honest and answer the following question:

Should men who are not trans women be allowed to compete in female competitions?
 
TSS
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:25 pm

A trans-man's lucid and therefore controversial take on trans-women, specifically Lia Thomas, being allowed to compete in women's sports-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYVEj-GNtRw&t=310s
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:38 pm

AeroVega wrote:
seb146 wrote:
This whole idea of "trans women are actually men and should be treated as such" by the right is exactly why we need Pride now more than ever.


Nothing to do with left or right. Be honest and answer the following question:

Should men who are not trans women be allowed to compete in female competitions?


That is not what the debate is about, though. It is should trans women be able to live as women? Trans women taking hormone replacements and have surgery be allowed to live as women? Your question is should men, born men, present as male, live as male, compete in women's sports? Two completely different topics that have nothing at all to do with each other.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:39 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Notice no one is offended by women competing in men's sports. In fact, that is encouraged. We had women playing college football and professional hockey and managing baseball... all inspiring and should be encouraged. But, for some reason, a woman who was born male but has spent years transitioning is sick and must be stopped.

This whole idea of "trans women are actually men and should be treated as such" by the right is exactly why we need Pride now more than ever.


You’re so blinded by your agenda that you completely miss the point. Women competing against men or working in male sports management isn’t an issue, but men who transition after puberty are blessed with all the advantages males have over females making the playing field decidedly uneven for biological women. It’s misogyny at its finest.

Trans women are biologically men, you can’t change that.


Again: one woman wins one race one time and the right is screaming complete misinformation about trans people. That is the fact.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:03 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Notice no one is offended by women competing in men's sports. In fact, that is encouraged. We had women playing college football and professional hockey and managing baseball... all inspiring and should be encouraged. But, for some reason, a woman who was born male but has spent years transitioning is sick and must be stopped.

This whole idea of "trans women are actually men and should be treated as such" by the right is exactly why we need Pride now more than ever.


You’re so blinded by your agenda that you completely miss the point. Women competing against men or working in male sports management isn’t an issue, but men who transition after puberty are blessed with all the advantages males have over females making the playing field decidedly uneven for biological women. It’s misogyny at its finest.

Trans women are biologically men, you can’t change that.


Again: one woman wins one race one time and the right is screaming complete misinformation about trans people. That is the fact.


It’s a lot more than one woman and many more than one race. As I stated above trans women who who have gone through male puberty should be banned from competing against biological women. If you can’t understand why you need to take yourself out of the debate and keep quiet.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 19010
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:35 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.


BINGO.

Identity politics have fragmented our nation more than anything. And it makes the oligarchs happy, because they can pander, promise, and drive the wedges deeper all whilst playing everyone against one another to their own gain and to the growth of government. It's transparent.


A gay friend and his husband - both very liberal - recently told me they have been told more and more at Pride events that they’re “the straight white males of the LGBTQIA+ community” and “aren’t gay enough.” And this is coming from other people who identify as LGBTQIA+.

He asked me, “How is it that now we are considered the oppressors?” It’s true - when identity politics relies on groups of people you claim are victims and others are their oppressors, at some point, you run out of victims and they become the new oppressors to a newly anointed victim group.

Identity politics divides all and unites no one.

I'll take "things that 100% did not happen" for $1000, Alex.

Braybuddy wrote:
Couple of weeks ago at Dublin Pride, I coudn't help noticing yet more flags and identities being added to the list. I noticed the trans and bear flags appearing over the last few years, but now there's a plethora, no doubt to be added to in the future.

Here's a summary:
https://www.volvogroup.com/en/news-and- ... d-for.html

No doubt there are more, or will be. I was under the impression that the idea of the rainbow flag was that it covered everyone, ie all colours of the rainbow. So it's splintering now. Should we now dump Pride before it implodes on itself?

The flags have gotten a little...uh...silly, in my opinion. I don't particularly care one way or another but conservatives have never been more violently anti LGBTQ and we keep coming up with new flags. It's just the perfect metaphor for the movement right now.

Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg

It's a lot of sturm and drang for like *a* trans girl in one state.

I have a very easy solution. Let the sports authorities deal with it. There is zero reason for politicians to insert themselves into it....unless their real concern is not actually girls' sports, which of course it's not. Can you imagine--conservatives concerned for women's sports? :rotfl:
 
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seb146
Posts: 24959
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:15 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All this outrage over trans people in sports because one woman won one race one time.

You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg

It's a lot of sturm and drang for like *a* trans girl in one state.

I have a very easy solution. Let the sports authorities deal with it. There is zero reason for politicians to insert themselves into it....unless their real concern is not actually girls' sports, which of course it's not. Can you imagine--conservatives concerned for women's sports? :rotfl:


Politicians have inserted themselves into trans people's rights already. Remember all the outrage over "men using women's bathrooms"? Republicans are so concerned by who and what people do once that stall door is locked they had to pass legislation. To regulate bodily functions.

If Republicans were really and truly this concerned over women's sports, Britney Griner would have been back in the United States weeks ago...
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 16041
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:58 am

seb146 wrote:
If Republicans were really and truly this concerned over women's sports, Britney Griner would have been back in the United States weeks ago...


Someone violates another nation’s laws and because she’s a professional athlete, Republicans - and only Republicans, apparently? - aren’t concerned over women’s sports? Help me understand how you feel these are even remotely connected.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 18395
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:48 am

seb146 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg

It's a lot of sturm and drang for like *a* trans girl in one state.

I have a very easy solution. Let the sports authorities deal with it. There is zero reason for politicians to insert themselves into it....unless their real concern is not actually girls' sports, which of course it's not. Can you imagine--conservatives concerned for women's sports? :rotfl:


Politicians have inserted themselves into trans people's rights already. Remember all the outrage over "men using women's bathrooms"? Republicans are so concerned by who and what people do once that stall door is locked they had to pass legislation. To regulate bodily functions.

If Republicans were really and truly this concerned over women's sports, Britney Griner would have been back in the United States weeks ago...


Okay, but trans peoples' rights and how sports organizations manage protecting the spirit of womens' competition are two separate issues.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 19010
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:49 pm

seb146 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg

It's a lot of sturm and drang for like *a* trans girl in one state.

I have a very easy solution. Let the sports authorities deal with it. There is zero reason for politicians to insert themselves into it....unless their real concern is not actually girls' sports, which of course it's not. Can you imagine--conservatives concerned for women's sports? :rotfl:


Politicians have inserted themselves into trans people's rights already. Remember all the outrage over "men using women's bathrooms"? Republicans are so concerned by who and what people do once that stall door is locked they had to pass legislation. To regulate bodily functions.

If Republicans were really and truly this concerned over women's sports, Britney Griner would have been back in the United States weeks ago...

Of course it's the same game republicans play with every minority every. "We are concerned for our women and children which is why we need to ban ________________<minority of the month goes here>_____________ from doing XYZ, including existing". Every few years there's a new minority they add, and it's always Susan Collins level "concern".
 
N757ST
Posts: 1246
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:35 am

seb146 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
You have not obviously informed yourself on the topic. Multiple races won with several "women's records" broken.

I get the issue and concern. I don't have an easy solution.

Tugg

It's a lot of sturm and drang for like *a* trans girl in one state.

I have a very easy solution. Let the sports authorities deal with it. There is zero reason for politicians to insert themselves into it....unless their real concern is not actually girls' sports, which of course it's not. Can you imagine--conservatives concerned for women's sports? :rotfl:


If Republicans were really and truly this concerned over women's sports, Britney Griner would have been back in the United States weeks ago...


How would that have worked? Do you think if was Lebron James that would give Russia more or less leverage? What do you propose be done, seal team 6 the situation?

I have the utmost sympathy for Ms Griner’s situation, but had I been in her shoes I would have spent more time reading the political tea leafs and extracted myself from that situation before it became….. this. I think some people are willfully ignorant of the latitude you get in a free country like the United States, and too dismissive of the dangers in countries where that freedom does not exist or worse where it is actively persecuted.

This thread is a perfect example of the bubble that exists in free societies. We have the latitude to debate large items and minutia, while Russia is not a practicing free society and the debate itself cannot happen. Ms Griner’s foley was identifying as a free woman, free to make mistakes in a place where freedom isn’t a right and where her mistake could easily be used as political capital in a much larger geo political theater.

So yes, I very much sympathize with Ms Griner. But in closing, she should have known better, and male or female, I don’t know what you expect from the United States government to remedy the situation that hasn’t already been attempted.
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 6392
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:42 am

N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:

This thread is a perfect example of the bubble that exists in free societies. We have the latitude to debate large items and minutia, while Russia is not a practicing free society and the debate itself cannot happen. Ms Griner’s foley was identifying as a free woman, free to make mistakes in a place where freedom isn’t a right and where her mistake could easily be used as political capital in a much larger geo political theater.



I'll second that.

Also a good illustration of why many people in this bubble fail to see the danger these nations (or many local actors) represent to these freedoms they take for granted.
 
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Braybuddy
Topic Author
Posts: 7422
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:58 pm

And, of course, there was the hot water Laurence Fox got himself into over discovering that arranging the progressive Pride flags in a certain way makes a rather unfortunate pattern:
https://www.wionews.com/entertainment/l ... ags-492465
:eyepopping:

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