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Braybuddy
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Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:34 am

Couple of weeks ago at Dublin Pride, I coudn't help noticing yet more flags and identities being added to the list. I noticed the trans and bear flags appearing over the last few years, but now there's a plethora, no doubt to be added to in the future.

Here's a summary:
https://www.volvogroup.com/en/news-and- ... d-for.html

No doubt there are more, or will be. I was under the impression that the idea of the rainbow flag was that it covered everyone, ie all colours of the rainbow. So it's splintering now. Should we now dump Pride before it implodes on itself?
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:07 am

Think of the Rainbow Flag as the US flag and all the other flags as State Flags. United under one banner but identifying as more. Well, back when the US was more United anyway, but that's another topic.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:52 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
United under one banner but identifying as more. Well, back when the US was more United anyway, but that's another topic.

That's the nub though, isn't it? I don't believe I've ever known the US to be so disunited. But that's another topic and for another thread. My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:42 pm

The problems and issues of those who are Trans are different from a Lesbian or Gay male from access to public bathrooms to being on sports teams.Trying to be a 'big tent' for a range of gender identities may cause division eventually in the LGTBQ community, the general public and political leaders.
A related issue is 'Pride washing', how Pride has become a marketing opportunity for big consumer product and services companies, some of which do business in countries with severe anti-LGTBQ and other terrible human rights policies. This distracts from the very real issues LGTBQ's still face in their daily lives.
 
ObadiahPlainman
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:06 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.


BINGO.

Identity politics have fragmented our nation more than anything. And it makes the oligarchs happy, because they can pander, promise, and drive the wedges deeper all whilst playing everyone against one another to their own gain and to the growth of government. It's transparent.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:32 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.


BINGO.

Identity politics have fragmented our nation more than anything. And it makes the oligarchs happy, because they can pander, promise, and drive the wedges deeper all whilst playing everyone against one another to their own gain and to the growth of government. It's transparent.


I don't think orientation identity is all that divisive, as opposed to political and conservative/liberal identities. Orientation/gender groups are mainly looking for equality, which most people can understand, even if they disagree with the lifestyle.

The political identity groups are at open war with each other, becoming increasingly more extreme, with moderates having less and less representation because they aren't at war with anyone.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:10 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.


BINGO.

Identity politics have fragmented our nation more than anything. And it makes the oligarchs happy, because they can pander, promise, and drive the wedges deeper all whilst playing everyone against one another to their own gain and to the growth of government. It's transparent.



All politics are identity politics. It's just that straight Christian white males aren't going to hold 95% of the power anymore in the future. So someone invented the term "identity politics" to other every other group. Again, all politics are identity politics.

-----------------

For pride, I see the rainbow as a big tent, and there are offshoots. You see different groups having their own parties and hangouts during prides in different cities. Even within gay men you have different groups besides body classifications, such as demi, sapio, some gay men also identify as queer, some gay men reject that label and just identify as gay, etc.

I don't see gay identities going away just because trans and enby are getting more visible.
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:10 pm

Pride is NOT like the United States. In the United States, straight white "christian" men are offended by anything not checking all of those boxes. With pride, we don't care as long as you are respectful of each other. And everyone under the LGBTQ umbrella has been and continues to be.
 
ObadiahPlainman
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:22 pm

seb146 wrote:
Pride is NOT like the United States. In the United States, straight white "christian" men are offended by anything not checking all of those boxes. With pride, we don't care as long as you are respectful of each other. And everyone under the LGBTQ umbrella has been and continues to be.


You're nothing if not predictable.
 
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ER757
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
Pride is NOT like the United States. In the United States, straight white "christian" men are offended by anything not checking all of those boxes. With pride, we don't care as long as you are respectful of each other. And everyone under the LGBTQ umbrella has been and continues to be.

I am a straight white male, not sure how you define Christian but since you have it in quotes I will assume you are referring to evangelicals. I am NOT one of those, but I "check all the other boxes" and bear no ill will at all against LGBT folks. I am close friends with several lesbian couples and have two or three gay male friends. So that's a pretty broad brush you were just painting with. You might want to walk it back a step or two.
On another note, I have to ask a legit question and this thread would seem to be as good a place as any. On local news channels during Pride month, they featured several stories and referred to the "LGBTQIA+" community. I do not know what the I, A and + stand for. Can someone fill me in? It's starting to be quite the alphabet soup.......
 
santi319
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:14 pm

ER757 wrote:
I am NOT one of those, but I "check all the other boxes" and bear no ill will at all against LGBT folks. I am close friends with several lesbian couples and have two or three gay male friends. So that's a pretty broad brush you were just painting with. You might want to walk it back a step or two....


Haha, there is nothing more American than the good ol’ “I have gay friends” , “I have black friends”, “so it allows me to have an opinion of their experiences”.

A walking cliché
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:25 pm

ER757 wrote:
I do not know what the I, A and + stand for. Can someone fill me in? It's starting to be quite the alphabet soup.......

As far as I know the I is for intersex, and A is for asexual. So the LGBTQIA+ now seems to be a broad label that basically covers anything that isn't straight. Might be just as easy to label it the non-heterosexual community, but then there's no such thing. But you can rest assured that there will be more letters added as more splinter groups are formed. To be honest I gave up caring years ago. The more identities there are the more alienated I feel. Coming next: straight lesbians (yes, I'm serious).

This is where I bale out. :roll:
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:29 pm

It's not like you need to understand all of these terms and groups. I doubt anyone that is LGBTQIA+ understands every group under that umbrella term. I'm an asexual male, but I don't know everything about being intersex, lesbian, etc.

It's as simple as just accepting and respecting each other's existence. Not understanding something doesn't equal being against it. For example if someone is angry that you don't know everything about being a trans lesbian then that's their problem, not yours. You can respect the existence of trans lesbians without understanding everything about it.
 
LabQuest
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
Pride is NOT like the United States. In the United States, straight white "christian" men are offended by anything not checking all of those boxes. With pride, we don't care as long as you are respectful of each other. And everyone under the LGBTQ umbrella has been and continues to be.


There absolutely is infighting within the LGBTQ community about direction and definitions. The black and white thinking coming from you is just par for the course.
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:39 pm

I know a gay man who considers himself homophobic :D at first I thought he was joking but he really can't stand other gay men. You can't get more schizo than that
 
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stl07
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:13 am

Actually, you might be right on this one. Being Asexual (which means you are not usually attracted to others romantically) has nothing to do with being a trans women. Nor does it have anything to do with being gay. Nor does being gay have anything to do with being a trans women.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:13 am

Pellegrine wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.


BINGO.

Identity politics have fragmented our nation more than anything. And it makes the oligarchs happy, because they can pander, promise, and drive the wedges deeper all whilst playing everyone against one another to their own gain and to the growth of government. It's transparent.



All politics are identity politics. It's just that straight Christian white males aren't going to hold 95% of the power anymore in the future. So someone invented the term "identity politics" to other every other group. Again, all politics are identity politics.

-----------------

For pride, I see the rainbow as a big tent, and there are offshoots. You see different groups having their own parties and hangouts during prides in different cities. Even within gay men you have different groups besides body classifications, such as demi, sapio, some gay men also identify as queer, some gay men reject that label and just identify as gay, etc.

I don't see gay identities going away just because trans and enby are getting more visible.


This is what I'm seeing too in my city (Sydney), with Mardi Gras being a great gathering in a broad tent.

I see a downside of "dumping pride" being that a bunch of groups currently inside the "tent" would go back to having their needs ignored. Outside the USA, inclusion is mostly seen as a positive thing.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:16 am

stl07 wrote:
Being Asexual (which means you are not usually attracted to others romantically)


You're thinking of aromantic. Asexual means not being sexually attracted to others.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:55 am

af773atmsp wrote:

You're thinking of aromantic. Asexual means not being sexually attracted to others.

This is the problem with identity politics, it dissects every human emotion and feeling into some subset of emotions and feelings which further gets dissected into even more subsets of emotions and feelings and everyone wants to be celebrated for every emotion and feeling they have which gets to the point where people just make stuff up now.

The majority of people don't really care what others identify as or what turns them on or doesn't - like the old saying goes, "what ever turns your crank" - but having to celebrate each and every identity and feeling as some sort of accomplish meant won't do anything, in fact, it might do more harm than good.

I don't understand hate or extremism, I don't understand where it comes from - I don't see why its so difficult to accept and respect anyone and everyone for who they are, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

On the other hand, I could care less if there is difference between being sexually attracted to someone or just romantically or if there is even some difference - simply don't care. Live your life, I respect you for who you are, no need to celebrate your choices just I find no need to celebrate mine.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:57 am

Braybuddy wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I do not know what the I, A and + stand for. Can someone fill me in? It's starting to be quite the alphabet soup.......

As far as I know the I is for intersex, and A is for asexual. So the LGBTQIA+ now seems to be a broad label that basically covers anything that isn't straight. Might be just as easy to label it the non-heterosexual community, but then there's no such thing. But you can rest assured that there will be more letters added as more splinter groups are formed. To be honest I gave up caring years ago. The more identities there are the more alienated I feel. Coming next: straight lesbians (yes, I'm serious).

This is where I bale out. :roll:



Why bale out? There's plenty of spaces for exclusively and predominately gay-identifying men, especially during pride weeks. What is your gripe specifically? I'm not trying to troll. Is your gripe that "standard gay" men and their causes will be forgotten about amongst the multitudes of nouveaux-visible non-binary, trans, non-gay/bi/lesbian-identifying persons?

No one has really brought up race yet........

Where I live, in Washington DC, the gay scene is VERY segregated by race...and it mostly caters to gay white yuppies. There's even a separate "DC Black Pride" about a week before the main pride "Capital Pride".
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:18 am

ACDC8 wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:

You're thinking of aromantic. Asexual means not being sexually attracted to others.

This is the problem with identity politics, it dissects every human emotion and feeling into some subset of emotions and feelings which further gets dissected into even more subsets of emotions and feelings and everyone wants to be celebrated for every emotion and feeling they have which gets to the point where people just make stuff up now.

The majority of people don't really care what others identify as or what turns them on or doesn't - like the old saying goes, "what ever turns your crank" - but having to celebrate each and every identity and feeling as some sort of accomplish meant won't do anything, in fact, it might do more harm than good.

I don't understand hate or extremism, I don't understand where it comes from - I don't see why its so difficult to accept and respect anyone and everyone for who they are, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

On the other hand, I could care less if there is difference between being sexually attracted to someone or just romantically or if there is even some difference - simply don't care. Live your life, I respect you for who you are, no need to celebrate your choices just I find no need to celebrate mine.


I was simply pointing out the difference between asexual and aromantic.

Pride is about more than just celebrating who people are, it's also about the LGBT+ group being visible and being proud of it. If people want to celebrate then let them celebrate. No one is forcing you to join in the celebrations.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:12 am

I don't have a problem with Pride, but I think the amalgamation of letters that are clunky and tricky to pronounce may be detrimental to the branding of non traditional sexual identities. What was wrong with rainbow? I mean, if autism can have a spectrum, why not sexual identity? And rainbow could easily represent that spectrum.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:25 am

af773atmsp wrote:
Pride is about more than just celebrating who people are, it's also about the LGBT+ group being visible and being proud of it. If people want to celebrate then let them celebrate. No one is forcing you to join in the celebrations.

And thats fine, but the problem with identity politics is that eventually the division between groups start to grow and starts dissolving what we're trying to achieve which is tolerance for each other (and this doesn't just apply to gender/sexual issues).

If the LGBTQ+ wants to have a parade for example, hey, power to them, but don't just celebrate your pride, celebrate everyones pride is what I'm trying to say. Hopefully that makes sense.

Maybe instead of having a Pride parade, we could go back to having a love parade, where everyone just gets along with everyone and has a good time :D
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:53 am

stl07 wrote:
Actually, you might be right on this one. Being Asexual (which means you are not usually attracted to others romantically) has nothing to do with being a trans women. Nor does it have anything to do with being gay. Nor does being gay have anything to do with being a trans women.


This is what I have always thought, LGB is a group of people who are more alike than they are different, the rest of the alphabet soup are completely different groups of people with very different sets of unrelated issues.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:40 pm

AtomicGarden wrote:
I know a gay man who considers himself homophobic :D at first I thought he was joking but he really can't stand other gay men. You can't get more schizo than that

Ha ha . . . I have been accused of that myself. :eek:

Pellegrine wrote:
Why bale out? There's plenty of spaces for exclusively and predominately gay-identifying men, especially during pride weeks. What is your gripe specifically? I'm not trying to troll. Is your gripe that "standard gay" men and their causes will be forgotten about amongst the multitudes of nouveaux-visible non-binary, trans, non-gay/bi/lesbian-identifying persons?.

I suppose it's been a gradual thing. When I hear terms like "genderqueer" I honestly lose interest and couldn't care less. We are expected to buy into all this crap. We can be overly precious at times. We howl about gay stereotypes, yet go to a Pride event and you will see mostly . . . stereotypes. We want to stamp out homophobia, yet no doubt foster it (I believe) by demanding others support us and think and we do. I had my beef with the last Dublin Pride in 2019 (which I posted in detail on here) when a member of security was removed from their post for misgendering someone at the gate. This was greeted by whoops and cheers from the audience. :roll:

This year Dublin Pride excelled itself by throwing a hissy fit during Pride week, when it ended its media partership with the national broadcaster RTÉ over a discussion on the removal of the word "women" from health literature (it was replaced by "people with a cervix"). I had listened to the three programmes they objective to, and they were perfectly normal, civilised debates between women and trans women. Yet they were portrayed by Dublin Pride as promoting hate-speech, which is a complete distortion of the truth. This is where they lose me: the LGBTQ+ movement has become a narcissistic echo chamber which will not tolerate objective comment or criticism. RTÉ has, over the years, been more than supportive to the LGBTQ+ communtiy, to the point of only ever portaying it in a positive light:
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/soci ... -rhetoric/

Pellegrine wrote:
No one has really brought up race yet........

Where I live, in Washington DC, the gay scene is VERY segregated by race...and it mostly caters to gay white yuppies. There's even a separate "DC Black Pride" about a week before the main pride "Capital Pride".

Well there you go. It's inevitable that this movement collapes in on itself.

LittleFokker wrote:
I don't have a problem with Pride, but I think the amalgamation of letters that are clunky and tricky to pronounce may be detrimental to the branding of non traditional sexual identities. What was wrong with rainbow? I mean, if autism can have a spectrum, why not sexual identity? And rainbow could easily represent that spectrum.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

ACDC8 wrote:
Maybe instead of having a Pride parade, we could go back to having a love parade, where everyone just gets along with everyone and has a good time :D

Great idea! :bigthumbsup:
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:08 pm

Pride has become a corporate marketing event. It has become by definition mainstream. So, it would be a “conservative” position to keep Pride as a ubiquitous, omnipresent marketing event. The avant garde thing to do would be to cancel it.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:25 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Think of the Rainbow Flag as the US flag and all the other flags as State Flags. United under one banner but identifying as more. Well, back when the US was more United anyway, but that's another topic.

I am old enough to remember when the rainbow flag ment GreenPeace :old:
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:24 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Why bale out? There's plenty of spaces for exclusively and predominately gay-identifying men, especially during pride weeks. What is your gripe specifically? I'm not trying to troll. Is your gripe that "standard gay" men and their causes will be forgotten about amongst the multitudes of nouveaux-visible non-binary, trans, non-gay/bi/lesbian-identifying persons?.

I suppose it's been a gradual thing. When I hear terms like "genderqueer" I honestly lose interest and couldn't care less. We are expected to buy into all this crap. We can be overly precious at times. We howl about gay stereotypes, yet go to a Pride event and you will see mostly . . . stereotypes. We want to stamp out homophobia, yet no doubt foster it (I believe) by demanding others support us and think and we do. I had my beef with the last Dublin Pride in 2019 (which I posted in detail on here) when a member of security was removed from their post for misgendering someone at the gate. This was greeted by whoops and cheers from the audience. :roll:

This year Dublin Pride excelled itself by throwing a hissy fit during Pride week, when it ended its media partership with the national broadcaster RTÉ over a discussion on the removal of the word "women" from health literature (it was replaced by "people with a cervix"). I had listened to the three programmes they objective to, and they were perfectly normal, civilised debates between women and trans women. Yet they were portrayed by Dublin Pride as promoting hate-speech, which is a complete distortion of the truth. This is where they lose me: the LGBTQ+ movement has become a narcissistic echo chamber which will not tolerate objective comment or criticism. RTÉ has, over the years, been more than supportive to the LGBTQ+ communtiy, to the point of only ever portaying it in a positive light:
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/soci ... -rhetoric/


I don't think we HAVE to buy into it though. I think if we as people...if you consider yourself an intelligent, empathetic, respectful person...you would be cognizant of a basic knowledge of these terms and of the fact that some people choose to categorize themselves as such.

I'm a very liberal and accepting person, but one thing that annoys me now is how some people believe we ought to remember everyone's pronouns. The en vogue proposed alternative to remembering everyone's individual pronouns is to call everyone by "they"/"them". Some are offended by that, because they are used to the binary standard "he"/"she". Now, I barely remember a lot of people's names...I'm not remembering everyone's set of pronouns... It just ain't going to happen. I'm wired visually. With regards to people getting upset at being accidentally misgendered...if there was no malicious intent, that is ridiculous and something that deserves push-back. Language also does not need to be exclusive to accommodate terminology à la mode. Instead of replacing "women" in your example with "people with a cervix", language can be inclusive: "women and people with cervices."
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:02 pm

ER757 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Pride is NOT like the United States. In the United States, straight white "christian" men are offended by anything not checking all of those boxes. With pride, we don't care as long as you are respectful of each other. And everyone under the LGBTQ umbrella has been and continues to be.

I am a straight white male, not sure how you define Christian but since you have it in quotes I will assume you are referring to evangelicals. I am NOT one of those, but I "check all the other boxes" and bear no ill will at all against LGBT folks. I am close friends with several lesbian couples and have two or three gay male friends. So that's a pretty broad brush you were just painting with. You might want to walk it back a step or two.


You are right that SOME straight, white Christian men are accepting. And we welcome that. Thank you.

I was referring to the ones who scream that "liberals" are "woke" and pass "don't say gay" bills and cheer that "Disney is going broke" and such. The ones in charge. The ones pushing the Republican party farther and farther to the right.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:44 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
I don't think we HAVE to buy into it though. I think if we as people...if you consider yourself an intelligent, empathetic, respectful person...you would be cognizant of a basic knowledge of these terms and of the fact that some people choose to categorize themselves as such.

While people are entitled to identify as whatever they want, the categories are simply getting out of hand with new ones being invented by the day. I have given up on keeping up. When I heard of "straight lesbians" I felt like banging my head against the wall. I would be a respectful person, but sometimes I think there's a lot of posturing and attention-seeking going on.

Pellegrine wrote:
I'm a very liberal and accepting person, but one thing that annoys me now is how some people believe we ought to remember everyone's pronouns. The en vogue proposed alternative to remembering everyone's individual pronouns is to call everyone by "they"/"them". Some are offended by that, because they are used to the binary standard "he"/"she". Now, I barely remember a lot of people's names...I'm not remembering everyone's set of pronouns... It just ain't going to happen. I'm wired visually. With regards to people getting upset at being accidentally misgendered...if there was no malicious intent, that is ridiculous and something that deserves push-back. Language also does not need to be exclusive to accommodate terminology à la mode. Instead of replacing "women" in your example with "people with a cervix", language can be inclusive: "women and people with cervices."

We're pretty-much on the same page here. It would be impossible to remember everyone's preferred pronouns. Are people really offended here? What exactly is the big deal? Has anyone who had someone misremember their name every actually been offended? Some gay men often refer to other men, both straight and gay, as "she". Is that now verboten?

As for the "women and people with cervices", that would be the obvious solution, but the argument was over the word "women" being completely removed. I can completely understand why women were offended. It's strange that for people who nomenclature and identity is so important, they have no problem in changing or denying it to others.
Last edited by Braybuddy on Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:55 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Think of the Rainbow Flag as the US flag and all the other flags as State Flags. United under one banner but identifying as more. Well, back when the US was more United anyway, but that's another topic.


I am old enough to remember when the rainbow flag ment GreenPeace :old:


I hope you don't have to change your colostomy bag TOO often. ;)
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:34 pm

Ha Ha ha :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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seb146
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Re: Time to dump Pride?

Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:57 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
I don't think we HAVE to buy into it though. I think if we as people...if you consider yourself an intelligent, empathetic, respectful person...you would be cognizant of a basic knowledge of these terms and of the fact that some people choose to categorize themselves as such.

While people are entitled to identify as whatever they want, the categories are simply getting out of hand with new ones being invented by the day. I have given up on keeping up. When I heard of "straight lesbians" I felt like banging my head against the wall. I would be a respectful person, but sometimes I think there's a lot of posturing and attention-seeking going on.

Pellegrine wrote:
I'm a very liberal and accepting person, but one thing that annoys me now is how some people believe we ought to remember everyone's pronouns. The en vogue proposed alternative to remembering everyone's individual pronouns is to call everyone by "they"/"them". Some are offended by that, because they are used to the binary standard "he"/"she". Now, I barely remember a lot of people's names...I'm not remembering everyone's set of pronouns... It just ain't going to happen. I'm wired visually. With regards to people getting upset at being accidentally misgendered...if there was no malicious intent, that is ridiculous and something that deserves push-back. Language also does not need to be exclusive to accommodate terminology à la mode. Instead of replacing "women" in your example with "people with a cervix", language can be inclusive: "women and people with cervices."

We're pretty-much on the same page here. It would be impossible to remember everyone's preferred pronouns. Are people really offended here? What exactly is the big deal? Has anyone who had someone misremember their name every actually been offended? Some gay men often refer to other men, both straight and gay, as "she". Is that now verboten?

As for the "women and people with cervices", that would be the obvious solution, but the argument was over the word "women" being completely removed. I can completely understand why women were offended. It's strange that for people who nomenclature and identity is so important, they have no problem in changing or denying it to others.


I work with two people who present as female but use they/them. We respect that and use either their name or they or them. We can print our own name tags from our company web site. There is an option to include pronouns. There were some pronouns we had never heard of. Ze, I think? Anyway, my two co-workers saw that and rolled their eyes and said "oh, well... whatever..."

I also think the unhinged responses to people using the wrong pronouns is exaggerated. I have slipped and used "she" pronouns but nothing ever came of it other than I used their preferred pronoun next time.

Calling a man she or her is a nothing burger. We do it all the time because of the context of the situation. I have called myself she recently when a shoe store offered me a credit card. I looked the clerk dead in the eye and said "she don't need no shoe credit card" and paid for my two pari of shoes. Context.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
I don't think we HAVE to buy into it though. I think if we as people...if you consider yourself an intelligent, empathetic, respectful person...you would be cognizant of a basic knowledge of these terms and of the fact that some people choose to categorize themselves as such.

While people are entitled to identify as whatever they want, the categories are simply getting out of hand with new ones being invented by the day. I have given up on keeping up. When I heard of "straight lesbians" I felt like banging my head against the wall. I would be a respectful person, but sometimes I think there's a lot of posturing and attention-seeking going on.

Pellegrine wrote:
I'm a very liberal and accepting person, but one thing that annoys me now is how some people believe we ought to remember everyone's pronouns. The en vogue proposed alternative to remembering everyone's individual pronouns is to call everyone by "they"/"them". Some are offended by that, because they are used to the binary standard "he"/"she". Now, I barely remember a lot of people's names...I'm not remembering everyone's set of pronouns... It just ain't going to happen. I'm wired visually. With regards to people getting upset at being accidentally misgendered...if there was no malicious intent, that is ridiculous and something that deserves push-back. Language also does not need to be exclusive to accommodate terminology à la mode. Instead of replacing "women" in your example with "people with a cervix", language can be inclusive: "women and people with cervices."

We're pretty-much on the same page here. It would be impossible to remember everyone's preferred pronouns. Are people really offended here? What exactly is the big deal? Has anyone who had someone misremember their name every actually been offended? Some gay men often refer to other men, both straight and gay, as "she". Is that now verboten?

As for the "women and people with cervices", that would be the obvious solution, but the argument was over the word "women" being completely removed. I can completely understand why women were offended. It's strange that for people who nomenclature and identity is so important, they have no problem in changing or denying it to others.


I work with two people who present as female but use they/them. We respect that and use either their name or they or them. We can print our own name tags from our company web site. There is an option to include pronouns. There were some pronouns we had never heard of. Ze, I think? Anyway, my two co-workers saw that and rolled their eyes and said "oh, well... whatever..."

I also think the unhinged responses to people using the wrong pronouns is exaggerated. I have slipped and used "she" pronouns but nothing ever came of it other than I used their preferred pronoun next time.

Calling a man she or her is a nothing burger. We do it all the time because of the context of the situation. I have called myself she recently when a shoe store offered me a credit card. I looked the clerk dead in the eye and said "she don't need no shoe credit card" and paid for my two pari of shoes. Context.


LOL. Yeah, the previous company I consulted for was very, very, very liberal and we had the ability to choose our pronouns. I slipped up once and referenced someone who goes by they/them as "she" to a third person. I didn't work with that person regularly, nor were they with the client we were consulting for. They were some third-party people do did something who this was my first time meeting... The third person reported it up, and I got pulled aside by a manager above me at a later date who basically printed off the list of these people's names and their pronouns and was like, "and these are the list of X clients and their pronouns." To me, that was fine, I didn't feel reprimanded or anything...but like whoa ok.

The current firm I consult for doesn't even give us an option for listing pronouns. If I work with you regularly enough to remember your name, I'll probably remember your pronouns. But yeah.
 
trainlover2000
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:35 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:54 am

YES !!!!!!

First off, let me say I DO actually identify as homosexual but you could say I’m one of those “old-fashioned” gays, you know like the one who couldn’t be nearly as open about their sexuality like the kids nowadays but oh well! That’s how times go I guess.

In the words of the great Lenin in which he said “Da palushka pretronova dees nuts babooshka” which roughly translates to “I believe in Him”, and by Him I, of course, am referencing my lord and savior Jesus Christ. So next time you be all gay and proud remember His eyes are watching everything you do and disappointment he feels for losing another child of His world.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:44 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Couple of weeks ago at Dublin Pride, I coudn't help noticing yet more flags and identities being added to the list. I noticed the trans and bear flags appearing over the last few years, but now there's a plethora, no doubt to be added to in the future.

Here's a summary:
https://www.volvogroup.com/en/news-and- ... d-for.html

No doubt there are more, or will be. I was under the impression that the idea of the rainbow flag was that it covered everyone, ie all colours of the rainbow. So it's splintering now. Should we now dump Pride before it implodes on itself?


What are 'bear flags'
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:49 pm

LGBTQIA+

So what is the difference between Intersex and Bisexual.

What is Queer, I thought that was the old designation for Gay.

Then is the +.

Getting confusing.
 
PhilBy
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:24 pm

Honestly, and I admit some will object, anyone can be who they like. My pet rabbit annoys me when he drops mice on the foot of the bed andd then meows until I feed him.
What I find more objectionable is recent UK case where a woman referred to a gender fluid Swiss bank executive as a "part time cross dresser". Surely, in an egalitarian world, it is as acceptable for a man to wear a skirt to work as for a woman to wear trousers!

Noting that in the impolitic western world it has long been stated (incorrectly or not) that Arab men wear dresses in public. Although the difference between dress and robe is challenging to define. By extension some (humerous souls) infer that Jesus, in keeping with the tradiational attire of his country and era, probably also wore dresses in public.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:35 pm

PhilBy wrote:
Honestly, and I admit some will object, anyone can be who they like. My pet rabbit annoys me when he drops mice on the foot of the bed andd then meows until I feed him.
What I find more objectionable is recent UK case where a woman referred to a gender fluid Swiss bank executive as a "part time cross dresser". Surely, in an egalitarian world, it is as acceptable for a man to wear a skirt to work as for a woman to wear trousers!

Noting that in the impolitic western world it has long been stated (incorrectly or not) that Arab men wear dresses in public. Although the difference between dress and robe is challenging to define. By extension some (humerous souls) infer that Jesus, in keeping with the tradiational attire of his country and era, probably also wore dresses in public.


Actually, it is perfectly reasonable that he would have worn a long robe, many Arab men still do.

Important not to leave out the Greeks and Scots.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3404
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:28 pm

I don’t think we need a month of pride. A weekend, perhaps a week is more than enough.

The things is, the LGBT community wanted to normalise and integrate their sexualities with the rest of society (which I totally agree with). But that will never happen if we continue to run a month long thing that singles them out from everybody else….
 
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Braybuddy
Topic Author
Posts: 7326
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:00 pm

bennett123 wrote:
What are 'bear flags'

https://heckinunicorn.com/blogs/heckin- ... rrency=EUR

Arion640 wrote:
I don’t think we need a month of pride. A weekend, perhaps a week is more than enough.

:yes: How did it ever get stretched out to a month anyway?

bennett123 wrote:
The things is, the LGBT community wanted to normalise and integrate their sexualities with the rest of society (which I totally agree with). But that will never happen if we continue to run a month long thing that singles them out from everybody else….

Plus, people may end-up just getting turned-off.
 
DN4CAAD
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:55 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:19 pm

ltbewr wrote:
The problems and issues of those who are Trans are different from a Lesbian or Gay male from access to public bathrooms to being on sports teams.Trying to be a 'big tent' for a range of gender identities may cause division eventually in the LGTBQ community, the general public and political leaders.
A related issue is 'Pride washing', how Pride has become a marketing opportunity for big consumer product and services companies, some of which do business in countries with severe anti-LGTBQ and other terrible human rights policies. This distracts from the very real issues LGTBQ's still face in their daily lives.



There is a small but vocal minority of lesbians and bisexual women who exclude trans women from the community. So for this reason, I can understand and agree with your comment on division due to big tent desires
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1889
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:46 pm

santi319 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I am NOT one of those, but I "check all the other boxes" and bear no ill will at all against LGBT folks. I am close friends with several lesbian couples and have two or three gay male friends. So that's a pretty broad brush you were just painting with. You might want to walk it back a step or two....


Haha, there is nothing more American than the good ol’ “I have gay friends” , “I have black friends”, “so it allows me to have an opinion of their experiences”.

A walking cliché


That is vexing because what you say is not what he wrote. I don't see where he said anything about their experiences, he rightful pointed out the inane-ness of the post he was quoting as it painted with a broad, incorrect brush. Try reading it again, maybe slower.

As for the alphabet soup, yeah it is getting ridiculous and that is where folks start losing people, who often times do support equality. (For those with reading comprehension issues such as putting words in peoples mouths, I did not say that was my view nor did I say I don't support equality I certainly do as it affects me, that is just one thing I hear in various parts of the world from both straight and gay and all in-between.)

Like many things, Pride has become political. Two of my friends who are married gay men, are both white, Christian (not evangelical) and registered Republicans. They even love Chick-fil-A...needless to say they get a lot angry rhetoric from all sides which I find sad.
 
santi319
Posts: 1414
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:58 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
santi319 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I am NOT one of those, but I "check all the other boxes" and bear no ill will at all against LGBT folks. I am close friends with several lesbian couples and have two or three gay male friends. So that's a pretty broad brush you were just painting with. You might want to walk it back a step or two....


Haha, there is nothing more American than the good ol’ “I have gay friends” , “I have black friends”, “so it allows me to have an opinion of their experiences”.

A walking cliché


That is vexing because what you say is not what he wrote. I don't see where he said anything about their experiences, he rightful pointed out the inane-ness of the post he was quoting as it painted with a broad, incorrect brush. Try reading it again, maybe slower.

As for the alphabet soup, yeah it is getting ridiculous and that is where folks start losing people, who often times do support equality. (For those with reading comprehension issues such as putting words in peoples mouths, I did not say that was my view nor did I say I don't support equality I certainly do as it affects me, that is just one thing I hear in various parts of the world from both straight and gay and all in-between.)

Like many things, Pride has become political. Two of my friends who are married gay men, are both white, Christian (not evangelical) and registered Republicans. They even love Chick-fil-A...needless to say they get a lot angry rhetoric from all sides which I find sad.


Ahhhh, but of course the good ol’ “you need reading comprehension, you are slow” or “ you are triggered” because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Classic.

The problem is, and I cannot stress this enough, it doesn’t matter how you (with your gay friends that you know so well) feel about this movement. The movement is not for you or how you feel about it. The movement is for the LGBTQRZX and whatever letter or flag they want to use, and what they feel. And because at the end of the day we as a society still don’t understand that we need to ask them: And how do you feel? First and foremost. We don’t listen but we share what we feel, this isnt about us is about them and HOW they feel.

And this applies to all movements. The day we learn to listen and to have our privilege take a step down. We can move forward to a better understanding of everyone else’s experiences.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1889
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:21 am

santi319 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
santi319 wrote:

Haha, there is nothing more American than the good ol’ “I have gay friends” , “I have black friends”, “so it allows me to have an opinion of their experiences”.

A walking cliché


That is vexing because what you say is not what he wrote. I don't see where he said anything about their experiences, he rightful pointed out the inane-ness of the post he was quoting as it painted with a broad, incorrect brush. Try reading it again, maybe slower.

As for the alphabet soup, yeah it is getting ridiculous and that is where folks start losing people, who often times do support equality. (For those with reading comprehension issues such as putting words in peoples mouths, I did not say that was my view nor did I say I don't support equality I certainly do as it affects me, that is just one thing I hear in various parts of the world from both straight and gay and all in-between.)

Like many things, Pride has become political. Two of my friends who are married gay men, are both white, Christian (not evangelical) and registered Republicans. They even love Chick-fil-A...needless to say they get a lot angry rhetoric from all sides which I find sad.


Ahhhh, but of course the good ol’ “you need reading comprehension, you are slow” or “ you are triggered” because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Classic.

The problem is, and I cannot stress this enough, it doesn’t matter how you (with your gay friends that you know so well) feel about this movement. The movement is not for you or how you feel about it. The movement is for the LGBTQRZX and whatever letter or flag they want to use, and what they feel. And because at the end of the day we as a society still don’t understand that we need to ask them: And how do you feel? First and foremost. We don’t listen but we share what we feel, this isnt about us is about them and HOW they feel.

And this applies to all movements. The day we learn to listen and to have our privilege take a step down. We can move forward to a better understanding of everyone else’s experiences.



Ah the classic, 'ignoring the post's actual topic and point and trying to redirect to a tangent'. Nice try, but again, you accused someone of doing, thinking, and saying something they did not. You not only should apologise for the feckless nature of your misguided post, but again should try to read the actual posts and points and questions and discussion in the thread-you fell off your high horse long ago; your platitudes notwithstanding,

I never said anything about how my gay friends "feel". Seeing as how I am one of the letters in the LGBT I will opine whenever I damn well please, not that one has to be in those letters to do so. I stated two of my married gay friends face more prejudice from their supposed own community (which many do actually) for not towing the supposed 'line' others that are "influencers" or in power positions think they should. I also never said a word about my sexuality or anything else on the spectrum of LGBT. You are now guilty of presuming something you know nothing about.

Classic indeed.. Keep trying that reading, one day you will get it. Sadly, you are not taking your own advice...you are not listening.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11312
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:32 am

Braybuddy wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
What are 'bear flags'

https://heckinunicorn.com/blogs/heckin- ... rrency=EUR

Arion640 wrote:
I don’t think we need a month of pride. A weekend, perhaps a week is more than enough.

:yes: How did it ever get stretched out to a month anyway?

bennett123 wrote:
The things is, the LGBT community wanted to normalise and integrate their sexualities with the rest of society (which I totally agree with). But that will never happen if we continue to run a month long thing that singles them out from everybody else….

Plus, people may end-up just getting turned-off.


That second quote of mine is not mine.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Topic Author
Posts: 7326
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:09 am

bennett123 wrote:
That second quote of mine is not mine.

Apologies! My mistake. That quote belongs to Arion640. :blush:
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Topic Author
Posts: 7326
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:20 am

DN4CAAD wrote:
There is a small but vocal minority of lesbians and bisexual women who exclude trans women from the community. So for this reason, I can understand and agree with your comment on division due to big tent desires

In the UK they have organised:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance

FlyingSicilian wrote:
I stated two of my married gay friends face more prejudice from their supposed own community (which many do actually) for not towing the supposed 'line' others that are "influencers" or in power positions think they should.

If activisits set the agenda, this is the inevitable result. This is probably the major faultline in the community.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 16025
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:51 am

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
My own take is that identity politics can be very divisive, and the more identities you have the more you are going to have competition and division.


BINGO.

Identity politics have fragmented our nation more than anything. And it makes the oligarchs happy, because they can pander, promise, and drive the wedges deeper all whilst playing everyone against one another to their own gain and to the growth of government. It's transparent.


A gay friend and his husband - both very liberal - recently told me they have been told more and more at Pride events that they’re “the straight white males of the LGBTQIA+ community” and “aren’t gay enough.” And this is coming from other people who identify as LGBTQIA+.

He asked me, “How is it that now we are considered the oppressors?” It’s true - when identity politics relies on groups of people you claim are victims and others are their oppressors, at some point, you run out of victims and they become the new oppressors to a newly anointed victim group.

Identity politics divides all and unites no one.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14301
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Time to dump Pride?

Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:00 am

trainlover2000 wrote:
YES !!!!!!

First off, let me say I DO actually identify as homosexual but you could say I’m one of those “old-fashioned” gays, you know like the one who couldn’t be nearly as open about their sexuality like the kids nowadays but oh well! That’s how times go I guess.

In the words of the great Lenin in which he said “Da palushka pretronova dees nuts babooshka” which roughly translates to “I believe in Him”, and by Him I, of course, am referencing my lord and savior Jesus Christ. So next time you be all gay and proud remember His eyes are watching everything you do and disappointment he feels for losing another child of His world.


What’s religion got to do with pride? It reads like you’re ashamed of yourself.

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