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Kiwirob
Posts: 14302
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:46 pm

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
So how is the NZ dairy and meat industries profitable when there are no govt subsidies nor are there import duties as a barrier for foreign imported food?


It's extremely intensive (and extensive) farming. With no concern for the environment.


Lamb and beef aren’t a problem for the environment and it’s not intensive, herd numbers are significantly lower than before 1984 when especially lamb was highly subsidised. NZ dairy farming is different kettle of fish, our cows live outside year round and enjoy some of the best grass in the world, they’re not barn houses and grain fed. There is some issue with run off, but meh not my problem.

But you’re missing the issue NZ farmers are able to be competitive on the world stage without government subsidies of protections in the form of quotas and tariffs, EU farmers would survive without either.
 
77XdelayImcarl
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:39 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:00 pm

Could be that NZ is more than 7x the size of NL, with less than 1/3 of the population.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4327
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:03 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
, EU farmers would survive without either.


Less of them, for sure.

Which depending on where you stand can be a good or a bad thing.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 13107
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Lamb and beef aren’t a problem for the environment and it’s not intensive,


Beef (cows), have a large footprint, so they are bad for climate change. Chicken is much better, footprint-wise. Pork is in between those.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14302
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:10 pm

JJJ wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
, EU farmers would survive without either.


Less of them, for sure.

Which depending on where you stand can be a good or a bad thing.


If the farmers need subsidies and tarriffs to remain in business they shouldn’t be farming, I don’t it’s in the best interests of taxpayers to keep unsustainable industries afloat.

Back in 1984 The NZ govt removed all farming subsidies and removed import tariffs, lots of farmers walked off the land, really smart farmers like my great uncle saw this as an opportunity, he borrowed and bought all the farms around his, he now milks multiple herds and has approx 2000 dairy cows. His sons and grandsons all milk herds within this collective.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14302
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Lamb and beef aren’t a problem for the environment and it’s not intensive,


Beef (cows), have a large footprint, so they are bad for climate change. Chicken is much better, footprint-wise. Pork is in between those.


I like beef, I will never stop eating beef, but I’m happy if you stop.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 13107
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:24 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Lamb and beef aren’t a problem for the environment and it’s not intensive,


Beef (cows), have a large footprint, so they are bad for climate change. Chicken is much better, footprint-wise. Pork is in between those.


I like beef, I will never stop eating beef, but I’m happy if you stop.


Non info for me. I just gave you the info, it is up to you what you do with it.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4327
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:03 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
, EU farmers would survive without either.


Less of them, for sure.

Which depending on where you stand can be a good or a bad thing.


If the farmers need subsidies and tarriffs to remain in business they shouldn’t be farming, I don’t it’s in the best interests of taxpayers to keep unsustainable industries afloat.


We've had very recent lessons on what it means to depend on a basic resource from abroad.

There's also the whole conservation / rural communities / heritage stuff.

It's way more complicated than just let them sort it out among themselves.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15780
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:14 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
So how is the NZ dairy and meat industries profitable when there are no govt subsidies nor are there import duties as a barrier for foreign imported food?


It's extremely intensive (and extensive) farming. With no concern for the environment.


Lamb and beef aren’t a problem for the environment and it’s not intensive, herd numbers are significantly lower than before 1984 when especially lamb was highly subsidised. NZ dairy farming is different kettle of fish, our cows live outside year round and enjoy some of the best grass in the world, they’re not barn houses and grain fed. There is some issue with run off, but meh not my problem.

But you’re missing the issue NZ farmers are able to be competitive on the world stage without government subsidies of protections in the form of quotas and tariffs, EU farmers would survive without either.


That "best grass" is seeded and fertilized by plane, it's not natural.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:58 am

Kiwirob wrote:
If the farmers need subsidies and tarriffs to remain in business they shouldn’t be farming, I don’t it’s in the best interests of taxpayers to keep unsustainable industries afloat.

That's for the taxpayers to decide. If they value food security over price then protecting local agriculture from collapse is only logical.
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:11 am

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:

It's extremely intensive (and extensive) farming. With no concern for the environment.


Lamb and beef aren’t a problem for the environment and it’s not intensive, herd numbers are significantly lower than before 1984 when especially lamb was highly subsidised. NZ dairy farming is different kettle of fish, our cows live outside year round and enjoy some of the best grass in the world, they’re not barn houses and grain fed. There is some issue with run off, but meh not my problem.

But you’re missing the issue NZ farmers are able to be competitive on the world stage without government subsidies of protections in the form of quotas and tariffs, EU farmers would survive without either.


That "best grass" is seeded and fertilized by plane, it's not natural.



I imagine that would depend on the size of the farm and it’s abilty to rest the paddocks. Not all farms top dress
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14302
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:20 am

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:

It's extremely intensive (and extensive) farming. With no concern for the environment.


Lamb and beef aren’t a problem for the environment and it’s not intensive, herd numbers are significantly lower than before 1984 when especially lamb was highly subsidised. NZ dairy farming is different kettle of fish, our cows live outside year round and enjoy some of the best grass in the world, they’re not barn houses and grain fed. There is some issue with run off, but meh not my problem.

But you’re missing the issue NZ farmers are able to be competitive on the world stage without government subsidies of protections in the form of quotas and tariffs, EU farmers would survive without either.


That "best grass" is seeded and fertilized by plane, it's not natural.


It’s been the best grass since well before top dressing was invented, besides the growing conditions are perfect.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:29 am

Kiwirob wrote:
It’s been the best grass since well before top dressing was invented, besides the growing conditions are perfect.

I am happy for you, but aren't we straying a bit too far off-topic?
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14302
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:55 am

AeroVega wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
It’s been the best grass since well before top dressing was invented, besides the growing conditions are perfect.

I am happy for you, but aren't we straying a bit too far off-topic?


The point is kiwi farmers can survive and thrive without needing subsidies, European farmers can't, IMO a lot of the problem is European farms are too small, for example I had dinner with a farmer last night, before he retired he had one of the larger dairy farms in his area, he milked 60 cows, in NZ the average herd size is 440, how does a farmer make a living from 60 cows, they don't they rely on govt handouts to stay in business. Small family farms need to go or multiple farmers need to form cooperatives to farm on a larger more economic scale.
 
A101
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:56 am

Kiwirob wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
It’s been the best grass since well before top dressing was invented, besides the growing conditions are perfect.

I am happy for you, but aren't we straying a bit too far off-topic?


The point is kiwi farmers can survive and thrive without needing subsidies, European farmers can't, IMO a lot of the problem is European farms are too small, for example I had dinner with a farmer last night, before he retired he had one of the larger dairy farms in his area, he milked 60 cows, in NZ the average herd size is 440, how does a farmer make a living from 60 cows, they don't they rely on govt handouts to stay in business. Small family farms need to go or multiple farmers need to form cooperatives to farm on a larger more economic scale.


Gee 60 head, that would be a hobby farm in AU/NZ
 
pune
Posts: 1538
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:47 am

Kiwirob wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
, EU farmers would survive without either.


Less of them, for sure.

Which depending on where you stand can be a good or a bad thing.


If the farmers need subsidies and tarriffs to remain in business they shouldn’t be farming, I don’t it’s in the best interests of taxpayers to keep unsustainable industries afloat.

Back in 1984 The NZ govt removed all farming subsidies and removed import tariffs, lots of farmers walked off the land, really smart farmers like my great uncle saw this as an opportunity, he borrowed and bought all the farms around his, he now milks multiple herds and has approx 2000 dairy cows. His sons and grandsons all milk herds within this collective.


Depends on who and where you are. For e.g. in the U.S. Bill Gates is the largest land-owner and is known to have a web of shell companies.

https://thecounter.org/bill-gates-micro ... -farmland/

The shell game has been played for too long.
 
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c933103
Posts: 6711
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:47 pm

pune wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Less of them, for sure.

Which depending on where you stand can be a good or a bad thing.


If the farmers need subsidies and tarriffs to remain in business they shouldn’t be farming, I don’t it’s in the best interests of taxpayers to keep unsustainable industries afloat.

Back in 1984 The NZ govt removed all farming subsidies and removed import tariffs, lots of farmers walked off the land, really smart farmers like my great uncle saw this as an opportunity, he borrowed and bought all the farms around his, he now milks multiple herds and has approx 2000 dairy cows. His sons and grandsons all milk herds within this collective.


Depends on who and where you are. For e.g. in the U.S. Bill Gates is the largest land-owner and is known to have a web of shell companies.

https://thecounter.org/bill-gates-micro ... -farmland/

The shell game has been played for too long.

Economic of scale. Not really unexpected.

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