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william
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Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:05 pm

https://apnews.com/article/netherlands- ... 4da8c328da

"The LTO, which represents about 30,000 farms — nearly a half of the Dutch total — described the nitrogen reduction target as “simply unfeasible.” Dutch farms produced exports worth 94.5 billion euros in 2019.

The group says the government is focused on reducing livestock and buying up farms and not paying enough attention to innovation and sustainable farming practices.

Environmentalists say now is the time to act.

“You rip a plaster off a wound in one go,” said Andy Palmen, director of Greenpeace Netherlands. “Painful choices are now necessary.”

Zegwaard’s farm is in an area where the government is seeking only a 12% cut in emissions, yet he also demonstrates out of solidarity with others and supports the protests.

“The average person currently sees the Netherlands as a nitrogen polluter, while we are also a food producer. It seems like people have forgotten that,” he told The Associated Press."
 
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Aesma
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:52 pm

Pig farming is a bitch, it has gravely polluted the French region of Brittany, with "green algae" blooms as a result. These are nasty and when they rot, they're toxic.

The two first sentences you're quoting are contradictory. If innovation and sustainable farming practices were sufficient, then the target could be met using them.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:28 pm

That's what you get after years and years of denying that there is a problem. The farmers solution? Keep on denying that there is a problem.
 
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c933103
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:32 pm

Aesma wrote:
Pig farming is a bitch, it has gravely polluted the French region of Brittany, with "green algae" blooms as a result. These are nasty and when they rot, they're toxic.

The two first sentences you're quoting are contradictory. If innovation and sustainable farming practices were sufficient, then the target could be met using them.

Wouldn't better wastewater treatment be a more efficient fix to the problem?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:42 pm

Often the waste is put on fields as fertilizer.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:14 pm

Agriculture is a tough pollution issue. I think the Dutch can afford to pay for sustainable food, but it will be markedly more expensive than prior food sources. And we need to be realistic that millions will die if food is markedly more expensive globally.

This is the new “green revolution” after hunger has largely been solved - how to feed people sustainably and as carbon neutral as possible. Without starving them to death.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
Often the waste is put on fields as fertilizer.


Just as it was for hundreds of years. Nothing wrong with it. However, I suspect there is way more manure than needed as fertilizer.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:07 pm

For hundreds of years there weren't farms with thousands of animals.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:28 pm

Aesma wrote:
For hundreds of years there weren't farms with thousands of animals.


That's exactly what I'm saying. You put just a right amount of fertilizer to the fields. Otherwise you'd destroy your crops. The problem is the manure not used as a fertilizer.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:43 pm

If there's excess manure, then why not process it? Isn't biomass energy a thing?
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:30 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If there's excess manure, then why not process it? Isn't biomass energy a thing?


I don't think there is enough carbon in manure to process it into fuel. OK, I admit I have no info about it. However, I work with processing wastewater containing human feces and there you have to add carbon to get rid of other contaminants.
 
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c933103
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:10 am

Aesma wrote:
For hundreds of years there weren't farms with thousands of animals.

But there weren't need to feed so many people around the world either.
And most people in the world believe it is more moral to produce enough food for as much people in the world as possible instead of cutting production and let people end up in hunger.
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower outout, what about global population, given that they also export foods?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:32 am

Aesma wrote:
Often the waste is put on fields as fertilizer.


That's the smell of Norway in summer, cow poop sprayed on the fields to improve the grass.
 
JJJ
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:23 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Often the waste is put on fields as fertilizer.


That's the smell of Norway in summer, cow poop sprayed on the fields to improve the grass.


Cow poop is okay.

Pig manure is much more troublesome.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:44 am

Aesma wrote:
For hundreds of years there weren't farms with thousands of animals.


The problem with farming in the Netherlands is its incredibly intensive due to the limited amount of space available. Put simply the dairy industry has outgrown the land available to it, cows are living inside almost all year round, unlike in NZ where dairy cows live outside year round in not to dissimilar climate conditions to the Netherlands, but we have more space.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:53 am

c933103 wrote:
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower outout, what about global population, given that they also export foods?


The perverse thing is that high EU agricultural productivity + EU export subsidies have pushed African farmers out of existence. No country should depend on imports for food, as the war in Ukraine has shown.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:58 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
For hundreds of years there weren't farms with thousands of animals.


The problem with farming in the Netherlands is its incredibly intensive due to the limited amount of space available. Put simply the dairy industry has outgrown the land available to it, cows are living inside almost all year round, unlike in NZ where dairy cows live outside year round in not to dissimilar climate conditions to the Netherlands, but we have more space.


That's not entirely true. Most dairy cows go outside in spring and back inside in autumn. Chickens, pigs and bulls grown for meat, however, are almost all inside their entire (short) lives.
 
JJJ
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:41 am

AeroVega wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower outout, what about global population, given that they also export foods?


The perverse thing is that high EU agricultural productivity + EU export subsidies have pushed African farmers out of existence. No country should depend on imports for food, as the war in Ukraine has shown.


EU export subsidies were fully phased out in 2015 and African farming has been on a steep growth for many years now.

Which, unfortunately, can't keep up with the pace of population growth in countries like Egypt.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:17 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Often the waste is put on fields as fertilizer.


That's the smell of Norway in summer, cow poop sprayed on the fields to improve the grass.

In the Netherlands poop is no longer sprayed on the fields. It's injected in the fields. Has been for many years already.
 
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c933103
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:18 am

AeroVega wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower output, what about global population, given that they also export foods?


The perverse thing is that high EU agricultural productivity + EU export subsidies have pushed African farmers out of existence. No country should depend on imports for food, as the war in Ukraine has shown.

Looking at Singapore and Iceland I have no idea what world you want.
Also, why do you think food shortage can be solved by eliminating high productivity export, and depends on local farmers with lower productivity instead? How can fewer foods fed people better?
 
art
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:20 pm

c933103 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower output, what about global population, given that they also export foods?


The perverse thing is that high EU agricultural productivity + EU export subsidies have pushed African farmers out of existence. No country should depend on imports for food, as the war in Ukraine has shown.

Looking at Singapore and Iceland I have no idea what world you want.
Also, why do you think food shortage can be solved by eliminating high productivity export, and depends on local farmers with lower productivity instead? How can fewer foods fed people better?


If agriculturalists in Africa and elsewhere have to compete with those in Europe and other places where large payments are given to farmers and exports are subsidised, how do you expect them to thrive and expand output? I recall the days of EC wine lakes, butter mountains and so forth (produced due to EC buying all produce at an inflated price) where excess agricultural produce was dumped into markets to get rid of it. No regard paid to whether it jeopardised the viability of non-EC farmers.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:34 pm

JJJ wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower outout, what about global population, given that they also export foods?


The perverse thing is that high EU agricultural productivity + EU export subsidies have pushed African farmers out of existence. No country should depend on imports for food, as the war in Ukraine has shown.


EU export subsidies were fully phased out in 2015 and African farming has been on a steep growth for many years now.


I think you mean 2017, but It is a step in the right direction for sure. However, a lot more needs to be done. EU farmers benefit from billions of Euros in subsidies, enabling them to flood the African market with cheap meat. According to https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazi ... e-policies, 90% of poultry sold in Ghana comes from Germany and The Netherlands. And what do The Netherlands gain from this? A country that is polluted to the point that the choice is now between building homes or saving the little nature there is left.
 
JJJ
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:32 pm

AeroVega wrote:
JJJ wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

The perverse thing is that high EU agricultural productivity + EU export subsidies have pushed African farmers out of existence. No country should depend on imports for food, as the war in Ukraine has shown.


EU export subsidies were fully phased out in 2015 and African farming has been on a steep growth for many years now.


I think you mean 2017, but It is a step in the right direction for sure. However, a lot more needs to be done. EU farmers benefit from billions of Euros in subsidies, enabling them to flood the African market with cheap meat. According to https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazi ... e-policies, 90% of poultry sold in Ghana comes from Germany and The Netherlands. And what do The Netherlands gain from this? A country that is polluted to the point that the choice is now between building homes or saving the little nature there is left.


And a lot of that poultry comes from the USA and other developed nations.

Ghana and other African nations for the most part buys wings, legs and mechanically separated meat which is essentially a by product in developed nations.

It's developed customers buying mostly breast and legs that cause those parts to be sold for dirt cheap. Otherwise they would just be thrown away.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:26 pm

JJJ wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
JJJ wrote:

EU export subsidies were fully phased out in 2015 and African farming has been on a steep growth for many years now.


I think you mean 2017, but It is a step in the right direction for sure. However, a lot more needs to be done. EU farmers benefit from billions of Euros in subsidies, enabling them to flood the African market with cheap meat. According to https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazi ... e-policies, 90% of poultry sold in Ghana comes from Germany and The Netherlands. And what do The Netherlands gain from this? A country that is polluted to the point that the choice is now between building homes or saving the little nature there is left.


And a lot of that poultry comes from the USA and other developed nations.

Ghana and other African nations for the most part buys wings, legs and mechanically separated meat which is essentially a by product in developed nations.

It's developed customers buying mostly breast and legs that cause those parts to be sold for dirt cheap. Otherwise they would just be thrown away.


Unfortunately wings have gotten expensive.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:15 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
For hundreds of years there weren't farms with thousands of animals.

But there weren't need to feed so many people around the world either.
And most people in the world believe it is more moral to produce enough food for as much people in the world as possible instead of cutting production and let people end up in hunger.
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower outout, what about global population, given that they also export foods?


I don't think it should lead to hunger, but it should definitely lead to less babies in countries that already can't feed the ones they have. Imagine if the West, tired of immigration from the South, stopped sending food as a way to limit the tide ?
 
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c933103
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
For hundreds of years there weren't farms with thousands of animals.

But there weren't need to feed so many people around the world either.
And most people in the world believe it is more moral to produce enough food for as much people in the world as possible instead of cutting production and let people end up in hunger.
And, while people in the country of Netherlands itself can maybe afford higher food price due to lower output, what about global population, given that they also export foods?

I don't think it should lead to hunger, but it should definitely lead to less babies in countries that already can't feed the ones they have. Imagine if the West, tired of immigration from the South, stopped sending food as a way to limit the tide ?

Doing so would only lead to more people fleeing Global South toward developed countries.
Prosperity, not hunger, reduce birth rate.
AeroVega wrote:
I think you mean 2017, but It is a step in the right direction for sure. However, a lot more needs to be done. EU farmers benefit from billions of Euros in subsidies, enabling them to flood the African market with cheap meat. According to https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazi ... e-policies, 90% of poultry sold in Ghana comes from Germany and The Netherlands. And what do The Netherlands gain from this? A country that is polluted to the point that the choice is now between building homes or saving the little nature there is left.

Flood the African market with cheap meat?
Africa is, currently, right now, experiencing food shortage.
I am not certain about amount and magnitude of food export or subsidy being given to farmers in Europe, but what I can see is that reducing that is going to result in less food ending up in Africa, as well as making the foods less affordable.
art wrote:
If agriculturalists in Africa and elsewhere have to compete with those in Europe and other places where large payments are given to farmers and exports are subsidised, how do you expect them to thrive and expand output? I recall the days of EC wine lakes, butter mountains and so forth (produced due to EC buying all produce at an inflated price) where excess agricultural produce was dumped into markets to get rid of it. No regard paid to whether it jeopardised the viability of non-EC farmers.

European farmers have economic of scale, and the help of machinery and technology.
It is only natural that countries elsewhere have lower productivity than resource-rich countries.
Eliminating subsidies wouldn't remove this competitive advantage.
Or should European countries turn Africa into their own banana republics so that African farmers can produce more foods?
 
Larnaca
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:28 pm

This is a non issue.

The utilization of nitrogen will drop significantly over the next 12 months. Natural gas is used to make nitrogen. The supply of natural gas is going to plummet, and costs going up considerably as the Russian supply starts to evaporate from the world market.

For those not aware, Russia took the Nordstream pipeline offline for “repairs”yesterday. Read into that as you wish, but probably done as a retaliatory measure against the west.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:56 pm

c933103 wrote:
Africa is, currently, right now, experiencing food shortage.
I am not certain about amount and magnitude of food export or subsidy being given to farmers in Europe, but what I can see is that reducing that is going to result in less food ending up in Africa, as well as making the foods less affordable.

The looming food shortage in Africa and parts of Asia is due to a lack of cheap grain and other carb-rich foods - rice, wheat, corn, sugar. Meat is a luxury that starving people generally cannot afford.

Animals are fed with crops grown on fields that could have been used for other products. 60% of all grain grown in Germany is directly fed to animals, mostly corn and barley. In addition, soy is imported for its high protein content. You need to invest about 3 kg in concentrates to gain 1 kg of pork.
For beef, the feed conversion ratio is even higher at approx. 4-8 (although a big chunk of that is grass, whereas pigs require energy- and protein-rich feed).
 
mxaxai
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:14 pm

c933103 wrote:
Looking at Singapore and Iceland I have no idea what world you want.

Iceland is a major exporter of fish, which gives it a net-positive trade balance in that category. There are other items like grain, fresh fruit and vegetables that need to be imported.

Singapore is a very wealthy and powerful country, especially compared to its neighbours. Still, their dependency on food and water imports from Malaysia in particular has been a major source of trouble in the two countries' relations. Ex.: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... -singapore
 
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c933103
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:44 am

mxaxai wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Africa is, currently, right now, experiencing food shortage.
I am not certain about amount and magnitude of food export or subsidy being given to farmers in Europe, but what I can see is that reducing that is going to result in less food ending up in Africa, as well as making the foods less affordable.

The looming food shortage in Africa and parts of Asia is due to a lack of cheap grain and other carb-rich foods - rice, wheat, corn, sugar. Meat is a luxury that starving people generally cannot afford.

Animals are fed with crops grown on fields that could have been used for other products. 60% of all grain grown in Germany is directly fed to animals, mostly corn and barley. In addition, soy is imported for its high protein content. You need to invest about 3 kg in concentrates to gain 1 kg of pork.
For beef, the feed conversion ratio is even higher at approx. 4-8 (although a big chunk of that is grass, whereas pigs require energy- and protein-rich feed).

If EU subsidies weren't specifically inclined toward meat, then this result is just a product of buyers' choice, both inside and outside Europe.

mxaxai wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Looking at Singapore and Iceland I have no idea what world you want.

Iceland is a major exporter of fish, which gives it a net-positive trade balance in that category. There are other items like grain, fresh fruit and vegetables that need to be imported.

Singapore is a very wealthy and powerful country, especially compared to its neighbours. Still, their dependency on food and water imports from Malaysia in particular has been a major source of trouble in the two countries' relations. Ex.: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... -singapore

Yes, as you said, they still need import of food, hence your proposed model of domestic food production doesn't work for these countries.
 
art
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:01 am

In the UK rivers have long been polluted by farming practices. My view is that farmers who pollute watercourses should pay for cleaning them up. The population in general and industry pay, rather than the polluters. I am not aware of much anger over this in the population. Not a big issue here... yet.

“It makes a mockery of our democracy and the rule of law if polluters are not prosecuted for blatant offences which cause misery and huge costs for many other people and businesses,” said Mark Lloyd, the chief executive of the Rivers Trust, a charity that works to protect Britain’s lakes and waterways.

“Agricultural pollution is the principal reason why our rivers are in such poor shape...


https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... unenforced
 
marcelh
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:33 am

Larnaca wrote:
This is a non issue.

The utilization of nitrogen will drop significantly over the next 12 months. Natural gas is used to make nitrogen. The supply of natural gas is going to plummet, and costs going up considerably as the Russian supply starts to evaporate from the world market.

For those not aware, Russia took the Nordstream pipeline offline for “repairs”yesterday. Read into that as you wish, but probably done as a retaliatory measure against the west.


The discussion in the Netherlands isn’t about nitrogen (N2), it’s about nitrogen compounds (NOx and NH3).
 
mxaxai
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:51 am

c933103 wrote:
If EU subsidies weren't specifically inclined toward meat, then this result is just a product of buyers' choice, both inside and outside Europe.

Yes, as you said, they still need import of food, hence your proposed model of domestic food production doesn't work for these countries.

Yes, the "choice" of simply not buying food when you can't afford it. Some countries can afford to subsidize the production of expensive food like meat or cheese, some can pay to import such foods en-masse. But others simply can't.

Nobody was talking about imminent starvation in Singapore or Iceland. It's places like Lebanon, Somalia or Sri Lanka where people are hurt most by a lack of grain on the market. Not all of them are at risk of immediately starving to death but impoverishment is easily possible when large parts of your income need to be spent on basic foodstuffs.

Edit: Just to put into perspective, in many poorer countries a 'middle-class' income is less than minimum wage in wealthier countries. I have no problem spending $5000 a year on food but plenty of people worldwide have an annual income less than that. Sure, other costs may be lower, but for commodities like grain, meat and fuel, they're all competing in the same market.
 
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:50 am

mxaxai wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If EU subsidies weren't specifically inclined toward meat, then this result is just a product of buyers' choice, both inside and outside Europe.

Yes, as you said, they still need import of food, hence your proposed model of domestic food production doesn't work for these countries.

Yes, the "choice" of simply not buying food when you can't afford it. Some countries can afford to subsidize the production of expensive food like meat or cheese, some can pay to import such foods en-masse. But others simply can't.

Nobody was talking about imminent starvation in Singapore or Iceland. It's places like Lebanon, Somalia or Sri Lanka where people are hurt most by a lack of grain on the market. Not all of them are at risk of immediately starving to death but impoverishment is easily possible when large parts of your income need to be spent on basic foodstuffs.

Edit: Just to put into perspective, in many poorer countries a 'middle-class' income is less than minimum wage in wealthier countries. I have no problem spending $5000 a year on food but plenty of people worldwide have an annual income less than that. Sure, other costs may be lower, but for commodities like grain, meat and fuel, they're all competing in the same market.

Then are the food export price too high or too low?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:30 pm

c933103 wrote:
Then are the food export price too high or too low?

Both, depending on how much food is available for export. In years with large harvests (which is typically the case thanks to the subsidies), there is surplus grain that is exported at very low cost. This discourages the growth of local crops in other countries. But in the current situation where Russia is holding Ukrainian food hostage, there isn't as much available for export and therefore prices rise - too high for some people. If the less wealthy countries buying those foods had maintained and expanded local agriculture (or if they'd increased their overall wealth and influence via other means), they'd be less at the mercy of international politics. But they didn't, for economic and political reasons.
 
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c933103
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:18 pm

mxaxai wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Then are the food export price too high or too low?

Both, depending on how much food is available for export. In years with large harvests (which is typically the case thanks to the subsidies), there is surplus grain that is exported at very low cost. This discourages the growth of local crops in other countries. But in the current situation where Russia is holding Ukrainian food hostage, there isn't as much available for export and therefore prices rise - too high for some people. If the less wealthy countries buying those foods had maintained and expanded local agriculture (or if they'd increased their overall wealth and influence via other means), they'd be less at the mercy of international politics. But they didn't, for economic and political reasons.

If anything, harvest variation is going to affect farmers in poor countries more, as they will not be able utilize advanced technology and architecture to for example use water more effectively in dry season or draw water from other sources, and thus they would have even poorer food stability.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:39 pm

c933103 wrote:
If anything, harvest variation is going to affect farmers in poor countries more, as they will not be able utilize advanced technology and architecture to for example use water more effectively in dry season or draw water from other sources, and thus they would have even poorer food stability.

For food stability, you need a significant surplus in good years to ensure that even poor years result in a decent yield. That's where subsidies to pay for all this surplus come into play.
Having the money to import food is good too, in case you get a really bad year.

However, many poor countries have come to depend on cheap surplus from wealthier countries while neglecting their domestic industry. Maintaining - subsidizing - sustainable domestic agriculture under pressure from cheap imports, in climate zones that aren't as suitable to the most popular crops, is a major financial burden. So when the imports dry up, they have nothing to fall back on.
 
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c933103
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:50 pm

mxaxai wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If anything, harvest variation is going to affect farmers in poor countries more, as they will not be able utilize advanced technology and architecture to for example use water more effectively in dry season or draw water from other sources, and thus they would have even poorer food stability.

For food stability, you need a significant surplus in good years to ensure that even poor years result in a decent yield. That's where subsidies to pay for all this surplus come into play.
Having the money to import food is good too, in case you get a really bad year.

However, many poor countries have come to depend on cheap surplus from wealthier countries while neglecting their domestic industry. Maintaining - subsidizing - sustainable domestic agriculture under pressure from cheap imports, in climate zones that aren't as suitable to the most popular crops, is a major financial burden. So when the imports dry up, they have nothing to fall back on.

No matter cheap or expensive food, and regardless local or international produce, bad years will still happen, the only way to counter bad years is stockpile and storage. Domestic agriculture will obviously have bad years too.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 531
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:44 pm

c933103 wrote:
Then are the food export price too high or too low?


In the UK supermarkets define the purchase price of milk, meat etc. If the farmer can't make that price, no sale. Farmers have only been able to continue to sell because of huge subsidies from the EU and UK governments. Those subsidies have either vanished (because of Brexit), or are being cut because of the government spending cuts. Farming being profitable / providing a living wage for farmers and their familes is becoming impossible. Cheaper imports from elsewhere also doesn't help.

So you could argue some consumers have been paying too little for too long for food - they haven't actually been paying a fair market rate that is sustainable without massive subsidies.

Now you have massive increases in costs for raw materials, supermarkets want to make even more money and the consumer is getting squeased from every direction. Let alone, now trying to find a way to farm more sustainably (which of course isn't cheap). Something will give at some point, and we know food security is now a massive issue with climate change and what has happened in Ukraine.
 
marcelh
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:15 am

Right wing populists are hijacking this issue and ignoring the facts…
https://nltimes.nl/2022/07/25/donald-trump-expresses-support-dutch-farmers-speech-denying-climate-change
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:34 am

Reinhardt wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Then are the food export price too high or too low?


In the UK supermarkets define the purchase price of milk, meat etc. If the farmer can't make that price, no sale. Farmers have only been able to continue to sell because of huge subsidies from the EU and UK governments. Those subsidies have either vanished (because of Brexit), or are being cut because of the government spending cuts. Farming being profitable / providing a living wage for farmers and their familes is becoming impossible. Cheaper imports from elsewhere also doesn't help.

So you could argue some consumers have been paying too little for too long for food - they haven't actually been paying a fair market rate that is sustainable without massive subsidies.

Now you have massive increases in costs for raw materials, supermarkets want to make even more money and the consumer is getting squeased from every direction. Let alone, now trying to find a way to farm more sustainably (which of course isn't cheap). Something will give at some point, and we know food security is now a massive issue with climate change and what has happened in Ukraine.


So how is the NZ dairy and meat industries profitable when there are no govt subsidies nor are there import duties as a barrier for foreign imported food?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:53 am

AeroVega wrote:
That's what you get after years and years of denying that there is a problem. The farmers solution? Keep on denying that there is a problem.


One of the best summaries I have seen. We could nuance it quite a bit, but yeah that's what the protesters want, keep doing what they are doing. Remember that 70% of the Dutch farmer's products are exported. Something needs to change, it is a systematic problem, so the system must change.

I, for one, is quite fat up with these farmer protesters, there is 31bn Euro's available to make the transition possible and then they block roads etc. People have been injured because of their protests and accidents have occurred. 55.000 (or actually a small portion of this) farmers don't get to dictate what is happening in the Netherlands.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:33 am

marcelh wrote:
Right wing populists are hijacking this issue and ignoring the facts…
https://nltimes.nl/2022/07/25/donald-trump-expresses-support-dutch-farmers-speech-denying-climate-change


Fun fact, this is not even an issue of climate change but the environment and biodiversity.
 
marcelh
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Right wing populists are hijacking this issue and ignoring the facts…
https://nltimes.nl/2022/07/25/donald-trump-expresses-support-dutch-farmers-speech-denying-climate-change


Fun fact, this is not even an issue of climate change but the environment and biodiversity.


I know ;)
Unfortunately he doesn’t care about facts and/or truth; his only goal is to agitate the crowd/“useful idiots”.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
That's what you get after years and years of denying that there is a problem. The farmers solution? Keep on denying that there is a problem.


One of the best summaries I have seen. We could nuance it quite a bit, but yeah that's what the protesters want, keep doing what they are doing. Remember that 70% of the Dutch farmer's products are exported. Something needs to change, it is a systematic problem, so the system must change.

I, for one, is quite fat up with these farmer protesters, there is 31bn Euro's available to make the transition possible and then they block roads etc. People have been injured because of their protests and accidents have occurred. 55.000 (or actually a small portion of this) farmers don't get to dictate what is happening in the Netherlands.


If there is more and more backlash to these kinds of environmental and climate policies, politicians have no choice but to tap the brakes. I'm not just talking about the Netherlands, but Europe and the U.S. in general.
 
pune
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:38 pm

mxaxai wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If EU subsidies weren't specifically inclined toward meat, then this result is just a product of buyers' choice, both inside and outside Europe.

Yes, as you said, they still need to import food, hence your proposed model of domestic food production doesn't work for these countries.

Yes, the "choice" of simply not buying food when you can't afford it. Some countries can afford to subsidize the production of expensive food like meat or cheese, some can pay to import such foods en-masse. But others simply can't.

Nobody was talking about imminent starvation in Singapore or Iceland. It's places like Lebanon, Somalia, or Sri Lanka where people are hurt most by a lack of grain on the market. Not all of them are at risk of immediately starving to death but impoverishment is easily possible when large parts of your income need to be spent on basic foodstuffs.

Edit: Just to put into perspective, in many poorer countries a 'middle-class' income is less than the minimum wage in wealthier countries. I have no problem spending $5000 a year on food but plenty of people worldwide have an annual income of less than that. Sure, other costs may be lower, but commodities like grain, meat, and fuel, they're all competing in the same market.


The same thing happening in India too, more than 50% of the population in the country is on ration (Government grains) and most of it is rotten but somehow people are trying to make the ends meet. The policies introduced by this Govt. They have stopped sharing hunger statistics for three years now, the last time was in 2019. Fixed a bit of grammar above, nothing big :)

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/I ... statistics
 
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Aesma
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
So how is the NZ dairy and meat industries profitable when there are no govt subsidies nor are there import duties as a barrier for foreign imported food?


It's extremely intensive (and extensive) farming. With no concern for the environment.

alberchico wrote:
If there is more and more backlash to these kinds of environmental and climate policies, politicians have no choice but to tap the brakes. I'm not just talking about the Netherlands, but Europe and the U.S. in general.


Politicians represent who voted for them. I'm sure farmers mostly didn't vote for politicians proposing these measures, but farmers aren't in the majority, that's all
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
Politicians represent who voted for them. I'm sure farmers mostly didn't vote for politicians proposing these measures, but farmers aren't in the majority, that's all


No, with 55.000 farms and 17.500.000 people, no they are not in the majority.
 
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c933103
Posts: 6711
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:11 pm

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
So how is the NZ dairy and meat industries profitable when there are no govt subsidies nor are there import duties as a barrier for foreign imported food?


It's extremely intensive (and extensive) farming. With no concern for the environment.

alberchico wrote:
If there is more and more backlash to these kinds of environmental and climate policies, politicians have no choice but to tap the brakes. I'm not just talking about the Netherlands, but Europe and the U.S. in general.


Politicians represent who voted for them. I'm sure farmers mostly didn't vote for politicians proposing these measures, but farmers aren't in the majority, that's all

Ia it something unavoidable for scale-efficient agriculture to have negative impact on environment?
As for politicians, it depends. Like in countries like Japan ans Korea, farmers are only a small part of their economy and a small part of electorate, yet they still manage to have major impact on their national trade policies. I guess the key here is that if most people care a little on an issue while a small group care a lot, politicians would listen to the small groups who for certain will be swayed by this issue instead of large group that probably just have the issue fly over the head.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 489
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Re: Anger simmers for Dutch farmers who oppose pollution cuts

Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:33 pm

c933103 wrote:
Ia it something unavoidable for scale-efficient agriculture to have negative impact on environment

Yes, that's unavoidable. But where in other countries dilution can be the answer to the pollution, it cannot be in The Netherlands. The country is one of the smallest countries in the world and filled to the brim with scale-efficient agriculture that have made it the 2nd largest exporter of food in the world after the United States. There is no space left for dilution.

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