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Jalap
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:32 pm

Problem is, you can't really fix this.

Individual entities can't solve this. Not individual persons, not regions, countries, unions, ... . Because caring about climate results in a competitive disadvantage. Only the very strong can do this, but their effort would be futile on global scale.

So, regulations. It's a global problem, so global regulations could be the solution.
But that doesn't work. everybody hates regulations. Democracies get rid of politicians that instate regulations. Leaders will get elected who prefer to not follow the regulations. Back to square 1.

Bottom line: we'll just have to take it. It could be a good start if there was more respect for individual entities who care and act. But we're not even at that point yet.
Whatever happens to mankind, we deserved it. Too selfish, too stupid.
 
CometII
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:54 pm

I still don't get this debate to this day.

Whether it's human caused or a natural process.

Whether the change it's really fast or it's slower.

Whether it's coal induced or oil induced.

It all reminds me of the scenario of finding a man on the street with a knife on his back. People gather around, including some with medical knowledge, and no one calls the ambulance or even tackles first aid attempts. Instead they ponder:
- "Is it a plastic knife or a metal knife?"
- "Did the knife get in or did he fall into the knife?"
- "Is the knife going to cause more bleeding or will the bleeding stop soon?"
- "Is the knife X length or Y length?"
- "Is it his knife or somone else's?"

In the meantime, the man dies, or ends up paralyzed due to inadequately fast succor. In the end, what on Earth asking or debating all those questions got anyone? Who cares what the knife is made of, how it got there, how long is it, or to whom it belongs to? You could have dozens of different combinations to those answers but the effects on the man's body are the DARN same!!

Apply this analogy liberally to the issue at hand.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:30 pm

LabQuest wrote:
The truth is most people aren't willing to make the true sacrifices to make a change. Stop buying stuff, stop flying places, stop driving your car, turn off your AC.


Correct
 
mxaxai
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:31 pm

CometII wrote:
Apply this analogy liberally to the issue at hand.

Well, you have to differentiate between diagnostics, first aid and longer term treatment so that the issue doesn't get worse.

In you example, the man should be administered first aid to stop the bleeding, but once the immediate danger has passed he also should receive antibiotics to prevent infections. He also needs to receive the right treatment for his injury; a gunshot wound would need different treatment. If you need to fetch a blood bag, you first need to determine the patients blood type as giving him the wrong blood might kill him.

Likewise, if we want to slow global warming we first need to determine the cause in order to find a solution. In this case, we already know the cause and have several options for solutions. They just need time to implement.
In addition, people hate change. In your analogy, the stabbed man himself would rather let the wound bleed in the hope that it stops by itself tomorrow, instead of seeking treatment in time. Only at the brink of death will he accept the help of bystanders and paramedics.
But we can also focus on immediate actions like fighting forest fires and reducing water wastage.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:43 pm

Jalap : the EU is considering a carbon tax at its borders (on top of internal regulations of course, the tax is to even things out). That means if you sell to the EU, you pay the tax (the buyer is paying, but the result is the same), incentivizing you to produce your products in a less carbon intensive way. And even transport it as such. For example sailing cargo ships are coming back.
 
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:58 pm

And nobody talks of over population. The earth will survive because nature will compensate. But will humans survive without population control?
Cutting personal usage of everything will not cut gross usage as long as the population keeps growing.

I see this as the biggest problem that will face humanity and no one is addressing this.
It's all about fly less, drive less, don't have a pet. This is minor and may help short term but population is the long term problem.

Who's going to solve that. People won't stop buying pickups and driving them at 120km. Pretty basic way to save gas and money, they won't wear a mask to help prevent others from getting covid, too uncomfortable. Most people are too selfish and ignorant to do the right thing.
How you going to stop them having 3 or more kids.
Gonna be a very interesting future
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:09 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
We are seeing the devastating effects of the human caused climate crisis across the world, and this time the UK and Europe are facing record extremes they have never seen before. Will the climate crisis be like gun control in the U.S. where nothing is ever done and the problem continues to get worse and worse?? We have seen Europe do so much more than the U.S. to try to mitigate climate change as they are more of a science based culture than the U.S.

I will vote blue and progressive this fall to support candidates that do not treat human caused climate change like a hoax and conspiracy theory.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/weather/ ... index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/weather/ ... index.html


Europe is not a single country, as a person living in part of Europe we are not suffering a heat wave in the Scandinavian/Nordic region.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:14 pm

M564038 wrote:
It’s going to be a rough ride and many changes will have to be made in the coming decades to adapt. As usual, we in the nordics will probably stand to gain from it all. More people will want live and invest in this peaceful corner, winter will be shorter and people will come here for summer vacation with temperatures in the high 20s and low 30s, rather than high 30s and 40s. My summerhouse, separated from the slightly too cold fjord, by a slightly too long hill will be an absolutely premium holiday luxury destination, rather than topping out at 20 with occasional sunshine.

The rest is bad.


I’m not sure where in Norway you’re living but where I live it’s often in the mid to high 20’s in summer and often gets over 30 in the evening as the sun sets. We run our heat pumps as AC units a lot over summer.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:24 pm

johns624 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Imagine how people survived back when AC didn't exist. Oh right, it was rarely as hot as it is these days.
Wrong. Back in pre-A/C days, people didn't live by the millions in places like Las Vegas, Texas and Arizona. Eighty years ago, the vast majority of Americans lived east of the Mississippi and north of the Ohio. There was a reason for that.


The mind boggles at the immense stupidity of people irrigating lawns and golf courses in desert areas. It’s probably time a lot of these communities were abandoned and people moved to more sensible places to live.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:39 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Enjoy your hot weather while you can. If you haven't realize yet, there is a war going on in Europe that has a very high potential of becoming a nuclear global war. Those who survive will remember the warm weather with tears in their eyes.


If all of the events from 1946 to 1991 didn't cause a nuclear war then this Ukraine conflict won't cause one.
The only potential nuclear attack would be from some terror organization that got their hands on nuclear arms. None of the nations who have nukes are going to launch weapons over this conflict.


The voice of reason, this entire conflict has been blown completely out of proportion.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:45 pm

AirKevin wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
[*]
So don't go to work then? Don't eat?

Of course you can go to work and eat. But maybe bike to work and not eat red meat. Hang your laundry to dry. Simple stuff.

Slight problem with this theory. I am an over-the-road truck driver. I'm almost never home, but when I am home, it is a 44-mile drive from my house to the terminal. There is not a snowball's chance in hell I am biking 44 miles, especially since I am carrying a lot of equipment when I go from my house to the terminal. Food, water, and laundry. How do you expect me to carry a week's worth of food, two cases of water, and two week's worth of clothes on a bike. Additionally, my job as a truck driver requires me to drive a tractor-trailer. If all of us truck drivers stopped driving, the entire country would come to a complete standstill and the economy would just crash.


Simple question why do you live so far from where you work? That’s one thing that amazes me about a lot of people, they complain about the traffic/fuel prices when they live 20/30/40 or more km’s from where they work. Move closer to where you work or work closer to where you live.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:02 pm

Exrampieyyz wrote:
And nobody talks of over population. The earth will survive because nature will compensate. But will humans survive without population control?
Cutting personal usage of everything will not cut gross usage as long as the population keeps growing.

I see this as the biggest problem that will face humanity and no one is addressing this.
It's all about fly less, drive less, don't have a pet. This is minor and may help short term but population is the long term problem.

Who's going to solve that. People won't stop buying pickups and driving them at 120km. Pretty basic way to save gas and money, they won't wear a mask to help prevent others from getting covid, too uncomfortable. Most people are too selfish and ignorant to do the right thing.
How you going to stop them having 3 or more kids.
Gonna be a very interesting future


The more affluent and educated people are the less kids people have. The population growth is not uniform. North America, Europe, Australia/NZ, much of industrialized Asia have peaking and declining natural populations. This is why North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand rely on immigration to keep their populations level up. Japan has a decreasing population and no immigration so having what probably is the oldest population on the planet isn't good either. IIRC Japan doesn't allow immigration. I am not sure about other wealthy Asian nations like Malaysia, South Korea, Singapore etc.

I saw an article recently that we are going hit 8 billion people by November this year but that the increase in population is slowing and is expected to peak by 2100 or even mid century. Population growth still remains in the places that are less developed than the developed world.

https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/pop ... 0by%202050.

I do wonder with the declining levels of fertility especially in men and the lowest levels of sex in quite some time if that is not an environmental response to the population crisis. The is a complex issue and something for another thread.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:14 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
Of course you can go to work and eat. But maybe bike to work and not eat red meat. Hang your laundry to dry. Simple stuff.

Slight problem with this theory. I am an over-the-road truck driver. I'm almost never home, but when I am home, it is a 44-mile drive from my house to the terminal. There is not a snowball's chance in hell I am biking 44 miles, especially since I am carrying a lot of equipment when I go from my house to the terminal. Food, water, and laundry. How do you expect me to carry a week's worth of food, two cases of water, and two week's worth of clothes on a bike. Additionally, my job as a truck driver requires me to drive a tractor-trailer. If all of us truck drivers stopped driving, the entire country would come to a complete standstill and the economy would just crash.


Simple question why do you live so far from where you work? That’s one thing that amazes me about a lot of people, they complain about the traffic/fuel prices when they live 20/30/40 or more km’s from where they work. Move closer to where you work or work closer to where you live.

I'm almost never home because of my job, so I live with my parents since I can't justify the cost of getting my own place. Therefore, I don't get to decide where to live. My parents certainly aren't going to move just for my convenience.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
Of course you can go to work and eat. But maybe bike to work and not eat red meat. Hang your laundry to dry. Simple stuff.

Slight problem with this theory. I am an over-the-road truck driver. I'm almost never home, but when I am home, it is a 44-mile drive from my house to the terminal. There is not a snowball's chance in hell I am biking 44 miles, especially since I am carrying a lot of equipment when I go from my house to the terminal. Food, water, and laundry. How do you expect me to carry a week's worth of food, two cases of water, and two week's worth of clothes on a bike. Additionally, my job as a truck driver requires me to drive a tractor-trailer. If all of us truck drivers stopped driving, the entire country would come to a complete standstill and the economy would just crash.


Simple question why do you live so far from where you work? That’s one thing that amazes me about a lot of people, they complain about the traffic/fuel prices when they live 20/30/40 or more km’s from where they work. Move closer to where you work or work closer to where you live.

As they say „it’s complicated“. Sometimes it’s not that easy. Believe it or not: I live 400 km far from far from my office. My daughters had just changed school when I found that new job so moving was not an option. This is just one out of several reasons…
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:33 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Slight problem with this theory. I am an over-the-road truck driver. I'm almost never home, but when I am home, it is a 44-mile drive from my house to the terminal. There is not a snowball's chance in hell I am biking 44 miles, especially since I am carrying a lot of equipment when I go from my house to the terminal. Food, water, and laundry. How do you expect me to carry a week's worth of food, two cases of water, and two week's worth of clothes on a bike. Additionally, my job as a truck driver requires me to drive a tractor-trailer. If all of us truck drivers stopped driving, the entire country would come to a complete standstill and the economy would just crash.


Simple question why do you live so far from where you work? That’s one thing that amazes me about a lot of people, they complain about the traffic/fuel prices when they live 20/30/40 or more km’s from where they work. Move closer to where you work or work closer to where you live.

As they say „it’s complicated“. Sometimes it’s not that easy. Believe it or not: I live 400 km far from far from my office. My daughters had just changed school when I found that new job so moving was not an option. This is just one out of several reasons…


Here in the US with our addiction to sprawl, a big part of it is because of housing costs. I think the housing sticker shock overrides the commuter fuel costs for many, especially in times of a balanced oil market (2015-19). Those with a job at a grocery store, for example, simply can't afford to live closer.

Granted, many of these are the same idiots who idle their gas guzzlers' engines while in the parking lot for 20 minutes while they play with their phones. :bomb:
 
M564038
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:51 pm

Everyone has been talking, dramatazing, and over-reacting about the «overpopulation» for the last 50 years, but it is really not the biggest concern.
Go get yourself a youtube-dose of Hans Rosling(RIP) .
He was critizised for being maybe a tad nonchalant about it, but he wasn’t far off.

As long as we keep education and innovation up, it is the least of our worries.

https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI


Exrampieyyz wrote:
And nobody talks of over population. The earth will survive because nature will compensate. But will humans survive without population control?
Cutting personal usage of everything will not cut gross usage as long as the population keeps growing.

I see this as the biggest problem that will face humanity and no one is addressing this.
It's all about fly less, drive less, don't have a pet. This is minor and may help short term but population is the long term problem.

Who's going to solve that. People won't stop buying pickups and driving them at 120km. Pretty basic way to save gas and money, they won't wear a mask to help prevent others from getting covid, too uncomfortable. Most people are too selfish and ignorant to do the right thing.
How you going to stop them having 3 or more kids.
Gonna be a very interesting future
 
ACDC8
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:13 pm

I do believe that we have a direct effect on the climate (albeit not as dire as some want us to believe) and we should do everything possible to mitigate our effect on not just climate, but our environment as a whole, but exactly where is the proof that this is 100% directly "human caused"?
 
FGITD
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:21 pm

SEAorPWM wrote:

Here in the US with our addiction to sprawl, a big part of it is because of housing costs. I think the housing sticker shock overrides the commuter fuel costs for many, especially in times of a balanced oil market (2015-19). Those with a job at a grocery store, for example, simply can't afford to live closer.

Granted, many of these are the same idiots who idle their gas guzzlers' engines while in the parking lot for 20 minutes while they play with their phones. :bomb:


Sprawl and lack of transit is what gets people. For example, I live about 9 miles from my work. A little over 15 minutes by car, 30 or so by bike and….90 by public transit. Hate to say it, but I’m not working 12+ hrs and then spending an extra 3 commuting. Oh and the public transit also requires about a mile walk on both ends.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:25 am

ACDC8 wrote:
I do believe that we have a direct effect on the climate (albeit not as dire as some want us to believe) and we should do everything possible to mitigate our effect on not just climate, but our environment as a whole, but exactly where is the proof that this is 100% directly "human caused"?


I'm not sure what you mean by "not as dire". With greenhouse gasses so far released, the increase in temperature is relatively minor, the problem is that it's a rolling ball. Permafrost is now thawing, releasing methane, a very powerful greenhouse gas, in the atmosphere. That's not directly caused by us, but it's indirect. The result is the same. And of course it's not like we've even slowed down our direct emissions, no, they're increasing and increasing.

We're out of buffers, too. The largest ones are the oceans. They're capturing great amounts of carbon from the air. Now, they've become acidified as a result, and will capture less and less, while still acidifying, causing all kinds of issues (corals and plankton dying, affecting the whole food chain).
 
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Aesma
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:28 am

FGITD wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:

Here in the US with our addiction to sprawl, a big part of it is because of housing costs. I think the housing sticker shock overrides the commuter fuel costs for many, especially in times of a balanced oil market (2015-19). Those with a job at a grocery store, for example, simply can't afford to live closer.

Granted, many of these are the same idiots who idle their gas guzzlers' engines while in the parking lot for 20 minutes while they play with their phones. :bomb:


Sprawl and lack of transit is what gets people. For example, I live about 9 miles from my work. A little over 15 minutes by car, 30 or so by bike and….90 by public transit. Hate to say it, but I’m not working 12+ hrs and then spending an extra 3 commuting. Oh and the public transit also requires about a mile walk on both ends.


If you do the 9 miles by bike (can be electric assisted, or even an electric scooter/motorbike), or a car with good fuel economy, or an electric car, it makes a significant difference compared to making it with a truck.

AirKevin is a bad example as what he describes is not commuting. Commuting isn't once every 2 weeks. He doesn't own a home so there are economies right there.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:32 am

Aesma wrote:
FGITD wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:

Here in the US with our addiction to sprawl, a big part of it is because of housing costs. I think the housing sticker shock overrides the commuter fuel costs for many, especially in times of a balanced oil market (2015-19). Those with a job at a grocery store, for example, simply can't afford to live closer.

Granted, many of these are the same idiots who idle their gas guzzlers' engines while in the parking lot for 20 minutes while they play with their phones. :bomb:


Sprawl and lack of transit is what gets people. For example, I live about 9 miles from my work. A little over 15 minutes by car, 30 or so by bike and….90 by public transit. Hate to say it, but I’m not working 12+ hrs and then spending an extra 3 commuting. Oh and the public transit also requires about a mile walk on both ends.


If you do the 9 miles by bike (can be electric assisted, or even an electric scooter/motorbike), or a car with good fuel economy, or an electric car, it makes a significant difference compared to making it with a truck.

AirKevin is a bad example as what he describes is not commuting. Commuting isn't once every 2 weeks. He doesn't own a home so there are economies right there.

Sure, but I was responding to the guy who said I could bike to work, which isn't realistic because of distance and amount of equipment I'm hauling.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:59 am

ACDC8 wrote:
I do believe that we have a direct effect on the climate (albeit not as dire as some want us to believe) and we should do everything possible to mitigate our effect on not just climate, but our environment as a whole, but exactly where is the proof that this is 100% directly "human caused"?


Here’s a compilation of studies on how much temperatures have increased via human contributions vs natural causes. All studies have shown that humans have caused virtually 100% of the recently observed warming, and in some cases natural causes (like solar radiation) have decreased, meaning human emissions accounted for that and 100% of the recent warming:

https://skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=57

And you have said “not as dire as some want us to believe”. Could you expand on that, what do you think is too alarmist and how bad specifically do think it will get, because the IPCC’s conclusions were pretty dire from my reading:

https://theconversation.com/amp/mass-st ... ind-176693
 
ACDC8
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "not as dire"

sierrakilo44 wrote:
And you have said “not as dire as some want us to believe”. Could you expand on that

That we're all going to die next year if we don't buy an EV or if I eat a steak. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to underplay the issue, just that with all things, you always have those who take their views to the extreme.
 
art
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:24 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
We are seeing the devastating effects of the human caused climate crisis across the world, and this time the UK and Europe are facing record extremes they have never seen before. Will the climate crisis be like gun control in the U.S. where nothing is ever done and the problem continues to get worse and worse?? We have seen Europe do so much more than the U.S. to try to mitigate climate change as they are more of a science based culture than the U.S.

I will vote blue and progressive this fall to support candidates that do not treat human caused climate change like a hoax and conspiracy theory.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/weather/ ... index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/weather/ ... index.html


Europe is not a single country, as a person living in part of Europe we are not suffering a heat wave in the Scandinavian/Nordic region.


I saw a map of the world showing temperature rise worldwide as part of the news on the television earlier this week when the UK temperature record was broken by 1.5C at Heathrow. The zones the deepest red on the map (indicating the biggest temperature rise) were the Arctic and Antarctic regions. If things keep going the way they have been it won't be so long before droves of people will be flying into Heathrow to escape the stifling summer heat of Hammerfest! 8-)
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:48 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
That we're all going to die next year if we don't buy an EV or if I eat a steak. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to underplay the issue, just that with all things, you always have those who take their views to the extreme.


No one, not even the most die hard climate activist, is literally saying everyone is doing to die next year if we don’t drive electric cars or stop eating meat, no one at all despite how some on the other side of the argument like to exaggerate what climate activists say.

However the global scientific opinion expressed through the IPCC is quite clear. Catastrophic outcomes from extreme weather events, changes to climate patterns, food and water shortages, rising sea levels, large parts of the planet becoming unliveable will have global effects on society, wealth and health in negatives ways in upcoming decades.

Potential solutions to these problems include reducing reliance on combustion engine cars and reducing meat consumption.
 
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fallap
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:20 pm

LabQuest wrote:
The truth is most people aren't willing to make the true sacrifices to make a change. Stop buying stuff, stop flying places, stop driving your car, turn off your AC.


Good luck with that, there are billions of people living in poverty who would all want to get a bite of the good life the few of us have enjoyed for decades.

A better solution would be to make the power source for your A/C green, the fuel used in airplanes greener, and lowering the ressources used to produce stuff greener.

PS. I live in Washington D.C. for the time being (flying home to Denmark via Frankfurt in a massive 747-8 gas-guzzler next week) and unless I turn on the A/C the indoor climate will be unbearable.
 
leader1
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:39 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:

Potential solutions to these problems include reducing reliance on combustion engine cars and reducing meat consumption.


Is that something that you, personally, are willing to participate in? Do you eat any meat and do you drive a car?
 
ACDC8
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:50 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
No one, not even the most die hard climate activist, is literally saying everyone is doing to die next year if we don’t drive electric cars or stop eating meat, no one at all despite how some on the other side of the argument like to exaggerate what climate activists say.

Lots of people do. Just go to one of the protests and plenty of folks blindly chant that very belief.
sierrakilo44 wrote:
However the global scientific opinion expressed through the IPCC is quite clear. Catastrophic outcomes from extreme weather events, changes to climate patterns, food and water shortages, rising sea levels, large parts of the planet becoming unliveable will have global effects on society, wealth and health in negatives ways in upcoming decades.

Potential solutions to these problems include reducing reliance on combustion engine cars and reducing meat consumption.

I'm not denying any of that but it won't happen overnight as some demand it be done.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:25 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
I'm not denying any of that but it won't happen overnight as some demand it be done.

Action needs to start somewhere. Not everything needs to happen at once but the faster it happens, the less damage is done. Climate research has shown possible paths that could limit global warming to certain levels depending on how quickly we can reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The problem is that the climate doesn't have an off switch. Even if we stop all CO2 emissions today, the climate will continue to change for many years as a result of what's in the atmosphere already. It will just change less compared to the case where we continue burning fossil fuels forever.

The risks of climate change are mostly probability.
A warmer climate means stronger and more frequent extreme weather - floods, storms, bushfires, etc. These events already regularly kill people. However, we (mostly) can't predict whether you personally will be affected in 1 year, or even 100 years from now. It's like rolling dice. Whether you're rolling a D6 or D20, you could roll a 1 on the first try, or you could have 100 rolls without getting a 1. There's merely an increased probability.
In addition, there are indirect effects, such as drought-induced famines that can trigger political uprisings, wars and resulting refugee crises that may affect you even if you can still afford any food you like.

The only thing we know is that we expect more deaths, injuries and property damage on a worldwide level. For those directly affected, it's a tragedy, but for everyone else, their fates are merely numbers in a statistic. Well, except that they all need to pay increased insurance premiums and taxes to repair the destruction.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:42 am

Here is a must read article (IMO)
"Carbon Emissions On Track To Reach An All-Time High". https://oilprice.com/The-Environment/Gl ... -High.html

According to the data in this report, " Since 1965, carbon dioxide emissions in the U.S. and the EU haven’t changed much. But they have grown steadily in Asia Pacific region, reaching a new record high in 2021. Asia Pacific’s emissions are now over double the combined emissions of the U.S. and the EU.

So who is going to solve this problem?
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8792
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:41 am

mxaxai wrote:
Action needs to start somewhere.

I don't disagree with that.

I don't deny the science, even though it might not be right - science is often wrong and we've been here before. 40 years ago, we were heading into an ice age and the science was "definitive". Once the science told us the Sun revolved around the Earth and the science was definitive and so on and so forth. Fact is, every thing our species does has some sort of effect on our environment, doing things to reduce those effects to the best of our ability while maintaining a developed society is simply common sense and yes, we should be changing things as our species evolves.

The problem I do have with the whole climate change issue is the politicizing of it. For example, our weather agency used to issue weather warnings, now they're calling them "climate change warnings". People who now die of a heat stroke or frostbite are now being counted as "climate change deaths". As soon as you start with that nonsense, you're going to loose public support and the fight to change things will be met with greater resistance. The other big problem I have is with all these climate change tsars and Government officials who jet off from conference to conference to conference in their G5's telling us that every steak we eat is going to kill our grandchildren's future while they live the high life as the hypocrites they are. As someone mentioned above, our species will survive, we'll adapt just as we have countless times already when our environment takes a turn, but yes, we should still be striving to better stewards of the Earth.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 3303
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sun Jul 24, 2022 11:14 am

ACDC8 wrote:
For example, our weather agency used to issue weather warnings, now they're calling them "climate change warnings". People who now die of a heat stroke or frostbite are now being counted as "climate change deaths".

Again, climate research is statistics. It averages weather over time periods and/or locations.
100 years ago, a typical summer in Bremen, Germany, would have had 0 to 4 hot days with temperatures >30°C. In the past 10 years, that number has gone up to 2 to 12 days. Let's say, one person dies of heatstroke on each such day. On average, that would mean 2 deaths in the past, and 6 deaths in recent years.
Are the additional 4 deaths the result of "just weather", or is it not rather the changed climate that facilitates such weather and should be considered responsible? At the end of the day, they're just a statistic anyway.
If you lose at Russian Roulette, is it just bad luck, or could it be that somebody put 5 rounds in the revolver instead of the usual 1?
 
pune
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:40 pm

mxaxai wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Recently Japanese government explicitly tell its citizens do not try to save power by keeping the AC off even when necessary as it have led to ten of thousand per day being sent to hospital due to heat stroke, even when Japanese government have issued power supply shortage cautionary watch.

Imagine how people survived back when AC didn't exist. Oh right, it was rarely as hot as it is these days. I wonder why that might be?
It's a catch-22: We need more AC, more water, more infrastructure to combat the heat now, but if the energy to power all that is coming from fossile sources we're digging ourselves an even deeper grave.

luckyone wrote:
We have a rate-influencing effect, but it's naïve to think that we are solely responsible for climate change.

It has been hotter, yes. However, there was no civilization there to record those temperatures. Maybe a couple of pre-historic humans noticed that their water sources were starting to dry up and migrated to more favorable regions. The current rate of change is unprecedented, excluding perhaps mass extinction events like volcanic eruptions or meteorite impacts.

Earth doesn't care about hot or cold temperatures. Life finds a way. Humans and their fragile civilization, though, might not.


Actually, there are quite a number of stories on the above topic.

https://www.sarahwoodbury.com/how-did-m ... keep-warm/
 
Derico
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:09 pm

This was already forseeable six months ago. Usually if the global pattern holds (as in La Nina) steady through January to July, you will have similar temperature anomalies somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere as occurred in the Southern Hemisphere.

Dome of Doom over Southern South America:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1469177&p=23126325&hilit=buenos+aires+41.5#p23126325

Basically the entire heat sink of the atmosphere shift entirely outside the Cancer or Capricorn tropics, which causes massive disrputions of the air patterns in the mid-latitudes, and the system has no mechanism to unblock it until enough gradient pressure builds up, usually creating massive storms like last year in Europe and this year in China/Asia.
 
Kilopond
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:55 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
[...]I don't deny the science, even though it might not be right - science is often wrong and we've been here before.[...]

What you are opposing is the model of dialectical materialism. When the neomarxist demagogues say "sience" they mean their own woodcut-like, ideology-driven worldview.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism
 
pune
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:49 am

CometII wrote:
I still don't get this debate to this day.

Whether it's human caused or a natural process.

Whether the change it's really fast or it's slower.

Whether it's coal induced or oil induced.

It all reminds me of the scenario of finding a man on the street with a knife on his back. People gather around, including some with medical knowledge, and no one calls the ambulance or even tackles first aid attempts. Instead they ponder:
- "Is it a plastic knife or a metal knife?"
- "Did the knife get in or did he fall into the knife?"
- "Is the knife going to cause more bleeding or will the bleeding stop soon?"
- "Is the knife X length or Y length?"
- "Is it his knife or somone else's?"

In the meantime, the man dies, or ends up paralyzed due to inadequately fast succor. In the end, what on Earth asking or debating all those questions got anyone? Who cares what the knife is made of, how it got there, how long is it, or to whom it belongs to? You could have dozens of different combinations to those answers but the effects on the man's body are the DARN same!!

Apply this analogy liberally to the issue at hand.



I am so gonna borrow the above. Have had that same conversation thousands of times. That whole bit needs to be put on a poster and then printed. So people actually finally will get it :(
 
pune
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:02 am

Exrampieyyz wrote:
And nobody talks of over population. The earth will survive because nature will compensate. But will humans survive without population control?
Cutting personal usage of everything will not cut gross usage as long as the population keeps growing.

I see this as the biggest problem that will face humanity and no one is addressing this.
It's all about fly less, drive less, don't have a pet. This is minor and may help short term but population is the long term problem.

Who's going to solve that. People won't stop buying pickups and driving them at 120km. Pretty basic way to save gas and money, they won't wear a mask to help prevent others from getting covid, too uncomfortable. Most people are too selfish and ignorant to do the right thing.
How you going to stop them from having 3 or more kids.
Gonna be a very interesting future


Again, it is not equally distributed. For e.g. I had been seeing some videos where it seems that the Japanese Govt. is concerned that Japan will no longer be a country. Even South Korea is somewhat trembling, Chinese have been remarkable in controlling their population but their gender counts have gone horribly mismatched. In my own country, India is and will continue to be overpopulated. As far as bringing laws like that, yesterday a BJP MP Ravi Kishan (a known womanizer and father of 4 children) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Kishan tried to pass a member's bill. Sharing from a RW website -

https://www.republicworld.com/india-new ... -bill.html
 
pune
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:47 am

ACDC8 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Action needs to start somewhere.

I don't disagree with that.

I don't deny the science, even though it might not be right - science is often wrong and we've been here before. 40 years ago, we were heading into an ice age and the science was "definitive". Once the science told us the Sun revolved around the Earth and the science was definitive and so on and so forth. Fact is, every thing our species does has some sort of effect on our environment, doing things to reduce those effects to the best of our ability while maintaining a developed society is simply common sense and yes, we should be changing things as our species evolves.

The problem I do have with the whole climate change issue is the politicizing of it. For example, our weather agency used to issue weather warnings, now they're calling them "climate change warnings". People who now die of a heat stroke or frostbite are now being counted as "climate change deaths". As soon as you start with that nonsense, you're going to loose public support and the fight to change things will be met with greater resistance. The other big problem I have is with all these climate change tsars and Government officials who jet off from conference to conference to conference in their G5's telling us that every steak we eat is going to kill our grandchildren's future while they live the high life as the hypocrites they are. As someone mentioned above, our species will survive, we'll adapt just as we have countless times already when our environment takes a turn, but yes, we should still be striving to better stewards of the Earth.


My own mother died just a couple of weeks back partly due to the changing weather. Allow me to share a bit of history -

My mother was diagnosed as diabetic just a couple of years back.

She was supposed to look upon her diet but she failed to do so.

Hence her foot developed gangrene (both feet) and they had to operate upon and both her feet were amputated. She was bedridden.

June is when 'normally' the season changes and we have rains. Unfortunately for the last decade, June is still summer. While the weather forecasts somehow say rains will be here. How they come to that conclusion is beyond me. And the people who lose the most in that are the farmers as they bring seeds and fertilizers depending on forecasts issued by the MET department. Somehow they have not understood that is a lie. They tried to take the case to Supreme Court but were unable to do so.

Back to mum. Anyways, July happened and she slowly reduced her diet, both liquid and solid. For diabetes, if you don't eat or drink, there is the danger of low blood pressure but the weather had now turned so cold and whatnot, the only thing she wanted to do is sleep, sleep, and more sleep.

In that sleep, she passed away. While this is all-natural, such deaths have been becoming more and more. Came to know of quite a few, how many more I have no clue as I'm no investigative journalist. Investigative Journalism has been dying a slow death since this Govt. came in.
 
pune
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:51 am

The present Govt. has made the least investments in climate research and in fact stopped funding DNA research for they fear if that continued then a huge population would be shown as those from Steppe coming into India and Dravidians as the indigenous population. They have compromised institutions all over :(
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 8900
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:31 am

Let us be honest, there are far too many people on this beautiful planet. There needs to a reset, say a reduction of 25%. Perhaps mother nature can come up with a plan, because mankind can not.
Just my :twocents: worth.
 
pune
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:44 am

readytotaxi wrote:
Let us be honest, there are far too many people on this beautiful planet. There needs to a reset, say a reduction of 25%. Perhaps mother nature can come up with a plan, because mankind can not.
Just my :twocents: worth.


One of the many conspiracy theories is that covid-19 was done either by nature or by man and the vaccines have compounds that make both genders less fertile. How much is truth and how much is conjecture I have no clue.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 6393
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:15 pm

If one super volcano erupts, none of this will matter.
 
LabQuest
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:31 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:52 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Let us be honest, there are far too many people on this beautiful planet. There needs to a reset, say a reduction of 25%. Perhaps mother nature can come up with a plan, because mankind can not.
Just my :twocents: worth.


You first. Do you have kids?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:37 pm

I don't think the problem is in the West.

Top 10 Countries with the Highest Birth Rate (per 1000 people, CIA World Factbook 2021 estimate)
Niger - 47.28.
Angola - 42.22.
Mali - 41.60 (tie)
Uganda - 41.60 (tie)
Benin - 41.55.
Chad - 41.05.
Congo (Dem Rep of) - 40.53.
South Sudan - 38.26.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 3303
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:18 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
I don't think the problem is in the West.

Top 10 Countries with the Highest Birth Rate (per 1000 people, CIA World Factbook 2021 estimate)
Niger - 47.28.
Angola - 42.22.
Mali - 41.60 (tie)
Uganda - 41.60 (tie)
Benin - 41.55.
Chad - 41.05.
Congo (Dem Rep of) - 40.53.
South Sudan - 38.26.

Each of the top 35 US states alone emits more CO2 than those 8 African countries combined. If the US as a whole reduced their emissions by just 1%, it would be equal to a 100% reduction in those countries. High birth rates are an issue that they need to address but it definitely isn't driving climate change right now.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if the US (or other western governments) invested in less wealthy countries to build clean energy projects.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:25 am

Most of the babies born in those countries (and the next 10 highest birth rates) will have little hope for the future. Many of them will try to migrate to countries with much better economies. And when they get there, their CO2 emissions will shortly match that of the residents of those nations.

There are 23.7 million non-EU immigrants living in Europe. There are 47 million immigrants living in the US (legal and non-legal). Over 200,000 arrive at our borders each month seeking asylum.

Yes - countries with high birth rates are impacting Western nations CO2 emissions.
 
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readytotaxi
Posts: 8900
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:26 am

LabQuest wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Let us be honest, there are far too many people on this beautiful planet. There needs to a reset, say a reduction of 25%. Perhaps mother nature can come up with a plan, because mankind can not.
Just my :twocents: worth.


You first. Do you have kids?

No kids, never wanted to bring them into such an unstable civilization, my choice.
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 6304
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:11 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Most of the babies born in those countries (and the next 10 highest birth rates) will have little hope for the future. Many of them will try to migrate to countries with much better economies. And when they get there, their CO2 emissions will shortly match that of the residents of those nations.

There are 23.7 million non-EU immigrants living in Europe. There are 47 million immigrants living in the US (legal and non-legal). Over 200,000 arrive at our borders each month seeking asylum.

Yes - countries with high birth rates are impacting Western nations CO2 emissions.


This is not how this works.

CO2 emissions are pretty much directly proportional to economic development. A citizen of a highly developed nation will release orders of magnitude more CO2 than one of a developing or poor nation.

Whether this citizen is born there or emigrates to that country is of little consequence. If your argument is that reducing the population of wealthy nations (by letting birth rates decline or curtailing immigration) will decrease their carbon footprint, then you are technically correct, but this is generally not desirable as this also entails economic contraction. The idea is to reduce the impact on the environment of human activity while allowing for economic development (i.e. sustainability), not to reduce the planet's population, which is practically impossible to achieve by any other mean that encouraging economic and human development in poorer nations anyway...

In fact, immigrants tend to remain within the lower socio-economic classes whose footprint is on average lower than those of higher means. People try to blame immigration for almost all of their society's ill, but in the case of climate change, immigration is probably the least of what we need to worry about.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:24 pm

Alot of the assumptions you make I just don't agree with. -

- lower population growth does not always entail economic contraction. Compare South Korea which has one of the lowest birth rates in the world or India's whose birth rate is 3 times that of S. Korea.
- the assumption that immigrants remain on the lower socio economic class just isn't my observation here in the midwest. By the second generation, they are fully assimilated.

I'm not blaming modest immigration for climate change. I believe that as the US and Canadian population increases (and it is) the harder time we are going to have to each the ambitious climate goals set by our Presidents.

And my biggest concern is that nations with the highest birth rates will soon be sending more migrants than ever. I offer Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Somalia as examples.
 
Pi7472000
Topic Author
Posts: 421
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Human Caused Climate Crisis hits Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
We are seeing the devastating effects of the human caused climate crisis across the world, and this time the UK and Europe are facing record extremes they have never seen before. Will the climate crisis be like gun control in the U.S. where nothing is ever done and the problem continues to get worse and worse?? We have seen Europe do so much more than the U.S. to try to mitigate climate change as they are more of a science based culture than the U.S.

I will vote blue and progressive this fall to support candidates that do not treat human caused climate change like a hoax and conspiracy theory.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/weather/ ... index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/weather/ ... index.html


Europe is not a single country, as a person living in part of Europe we are not suffering a heat wave in the Scandinavian/Nordic region.


Who said it was a single country? Scandinavia/Nordic countries have been highly impacted by climate change as well. What happens across the rest of Europe will effect Scandinavia/Nordic countries. They are all connected.

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/clima ... dge-europe

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate- ... andinavia/

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