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Francoflier
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:15 am

Avatar2go wrote:
She also asserted again that public perception of the proceedings as being fair and impartial was not possible without the master, and was the overriding concern. In that, she has accepted Trump's argument that his circumstances are special and impact the public.


Right...Special treatment for the special boy.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:44 am

These rulings are completely nuts. We cannot blindly accept determinations made by DOJ? That’s what evidence is for...did she even graduate from a real law school??
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:49 am

Judge Cannon has basically accepted Trump's arguments that he's being persecuted and needs protection from the government, which is acting politically and can't be trusted.

She acknowledged this in her first ruling, where she said Trump deserves to have his foot in the door and not have the courts foreclosed against him. She's essentially doing that for him, giving him the maximum opportunity to pursue his agenda. And by so doing, lending him false credibility with the public.

She singled out the DoJ in her ruling, for allowing leaks that prejudice the public against Trump. However while the leaks are all true, Trump is lying his head off to the public about the DoJ, and the entire case, day after day. Thus inciting threats and endangering FBI agents.

That apparently is ok.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:07 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Judge Cannon has basically accepted Trump's arguments that he's being persecuted and needs protection from the government, which is acting politically and can't be trusted.

She acknowledged this in her first ruling, where she said Trump deserves to have his foot in the door and not have the courts foreclosed against him. She's essentially doing that for him, giving him the maximum opportunity to pursue his agenda. And by so doing, lending him false credibility with the public.

She singled out the DoJ in her ruling, for allowing leaks that prejudice the public against Trump. However while the leaks are all true, Trump is lying his head off to the public about the DoJ, and the entire case, day after day. Thus inciting threats and endangering FBI agents.

That apparently is ok.


Trump prejudiced the public against himself by refusing to return TS/SCI materials to the government when rightfully requested. So tired of the circular logic being deemed acceptable by these sham rulings.
 
hh65man
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:46 am

vermin
/ˈvəːmɪn/
noun
plural noun: vermin
People perceived as despicable and as causing problems for the rest of society.
AKA Donald Trump, I dream of the day this person becomes completely irrelevant. And is no longer in the news cycle.
 
PhilBy
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:35 pm

There's a reason Trump loaded the supreme court. It greatly improves his survivability for total disregard of US law. All he wants to do is delay until he can get a Republican president (maybe himself) to pardon him.
Trump nominated judges have already shown how much they value their pre-validation promises so impartiality shouldn't be expected.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:16 pm

Trump is showing how seriously he is now taking this by hiring a lawyer with some sort of track record - former Florida AG (or possibly Solicitor General = I can't remember which ) Chris Kise. The big give-away is that Trump ( actually his Save America PAC but Trump regards it as his money anyway ) has had to front up $3 mill to cover the fees. Tha author of another article said that discussions with general counsel for some large corporations suggested that this figure up front bought some serious legal time. Also reported was that Kise left his previous firm to set up on his own to undertake this one case. Obviously, he doesn't want to go too far out on a limb financially and risk getting stiffed, with the knock-on effect on his personal wealth.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:28 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
Trump is showing how seriously he is now taking this by hiring a lawyer with some sort of track record - former Florida AG (or possibly Solicitor General = I can't remember which ) Chris Kise. The big give-away is that Trump ( actually his Save America PAC but Trump regards it as his money anyway ) has had to front up $3 mill to cover the fees. Tha author of another article said that discussions with general counsel for some large corporations suggested that this figure up front bought some serious legal time. Also reported was that Kise left his previous firm to set up on his own to undertake this one case. Obviously, he doesn't want to go too far out on a limb financially and risk getting stiffed, with the knock-on effect on his personal wealth.


Yes, Kise is the first really competent legal counsel Trump has had since leaving the White House. You can see his presence in the more recent motions, they have dropped the ranting and have stuck more to legal issues.

The question will be if he can avoid the Trump curse of legal troubles that descend on his attorneys. The better people from the White House did, they cooperated fully with DoJ and the Jan 6 committee. So wonder what Kise will do after this is over.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:09 am

The DoJ has filed its appeal to Judge Cannon's denial of the stay of the injunction on DoJ use of classified records, in the criminal investigation of Trump's handling of those records. It was filed with the 11th District Court of Appeals.

1. The appeal seeks relief only for the denial of stay regarding the classified records, and the order to provide that subset of the seized records to both the special master, and to Trump's counsel.

2. The DoJ asserts that records marked classified undeniably belong to the government, and the government cannot be injuncted from reviewing it's own records.

3. The DoJ asserts that classified government records in which Trump has no property, personal or privileged interest, cannot be demanded or ordered to be provided to him or his counsel, in the absence of criminal charges that might require discovery. And even for that case, the DoJ has the right to redact classified information in the public interest.

4. The DoJ asserts that the master has no interest in reviewing classified government records, for personal or priveleged materials pertaining to Trump, as no such overlap exists, or is possible.

5. The DoJ asserts that irreparable harm is done to their investigation, as the classified records contain evidence for the existence of other missing records, as well as the custodial history and potential disclosure of classified information.

6. The DoJ asserts that no harm is done to Trump by investigation of records that don't belong to him. His only harm emanates from his potential criminal culpability as exposed in the investigation, which cannot be just cause for an injunction.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... appeal.pdf
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:39 am

I thought it interesting that the DoJ finally directly identified the true purpose of the injunction, which is to give Trump counsel the opportunity to remove evidence from the investigation. That would be an unprecedented act, and Trump is defending it by claiming his circumstances are unprecedented.

However his circumstances are unprecedented due to his own actions. He's the one who took the classified documents. No one else is responsible for taking them, holding them, or refusing to give them back.

He's trying to blame the DoJ and FBI, but they are just doing their jobs in recovering the documents. It's amazing that he has gotten this far in his lawsuit. I'll be really interested to see how the appellate court rules.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:25 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
I thought it interesting that the DoJ finally directly identified the true purpose of the injunction, which is to give Trump counsel the opportunity to remove evidence from the investigation. That would be an unprecedented act, and Trump is defending it by claiming his circumstances are unprecedented.

However his circumstances are unprecedented due to his own actions. He's the one who took the classified documents. No one else is responsible for taking them, holding them, or refusing to give them back.

He's trying to blame the DoJ and FBI, but they are just doing their jobs in recovering the documents. It's amazing that he has gotten this far in his lawsuit. I'll be really interested to see how the appellate court rules.


Look at who appointed judges in the appeals process. If he appointed them, he will continue being handed favorable rulings. If any other president appointed them, he might not be lucky. Judges he appointed are ruling on him, not the law.
 
QF7
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:02 am

seb146 wrote:
Judges he appointed are ruling on him, not the law.

In fairness, look at how many Trump-appointed judges ruled against him when Giuliani & Co. challenged the election results 60 some times.

I agree it is disturbing when ANY judge’s fealty to the law is questioned but painting them all with such a broad brush seems unwarranted.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:18 am

QF7 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Judges he appointed are ruling on him, not the law.

In fairness, look at how many Trump-appointed judges ruled against him when Giuliani & Co. challenged the election results 60 some times.

I agree it is disturbing when ANY judge’s fealty to the law is questioned but painting them all with such a broad brush seems unwarranted.


True, there may be some who see the error in their ways. But, some just want to please him in case he regains control and can elevate his "friends" to high places.

Besides, why not paint them with a broad brush when they do just what we predict? Also, there are hundreds of examples of them painting Democrats with a broad brush with nothing to back it up. At least we can back this up.
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:31 pm

As this gets appealed over and over the stink will impact/poison the midterms and I think the GOP senate leader and average GOP senate/house nominee wishes it was over. eg 45 handed back the documents with no hesitation...I know good luck with that.
I cannot believe the criminal investigation eg who else\s DNA is on the stolen documents and/or proof of copying and or other personal storage places in NYC or elsewhere is stymied for now/.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:38 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
As this gets appealed over and over the stink will impact/poison the midterms and I think the GOP senate leader and average GOP senate/house nominee wishes it was over. eg 45 handed back the documents with no hesitation...I know good luck with that.
I cannot believe the criminal investigation eg who else\s DNA is on the stolen documents and/or proof of copying and or other personal storage places in NYC or elsewhere is stymied for now/.


I agree, Trump is gambling that his ability to rally the true believer base, is strong enough to overcome the poisoning of the more moderate base, and independents. Which may or may not be true. I guess we'll find out.

Ironically, those two things go hand in hand. The more extreme Trump is, the more support amongst true believers, and the less in the other groups. There is another round of Jan 6 hearings coming up as well.

I'm hopeful that the DoJ will prevail on appeal, given the legal stretch of Judge Cannon's rulings. If it doesn't, then we have to accept that the federal judiciary has become a political institution, just like the others.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:54 am

The 11th District Court of Appeals gave Trump until noon on Tuesday Sept 20th to present their arguments. At 2 pm that same day, attorneys for both sides will meet with Judge Dearie.

Since Judge Dearie has been instructed by Judge Cannon to review the disputed classified documents first, I wonder if that will happen before the appeals court makes their ruling.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:26 am

Avatar2go wrote:
The 11th District Court of Appeals gave Trump until noon on Tuesday Sept 20th to present their arguments. At 2 pm that same day, attorneys for both sides will meet with Judge Dearie.

Since Judge Dearie has been instructed by Judge Cannon to review the disputed classified documents first, I wonder if that will happen before the appeals court makes their ruling.

It appears the Special Master situation is not going well for Trump:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 3.97.0.pdf

The Special Master is requiring Trump disclose specific information about his "declassification" of documents. His lawyers are resisting because that could reveal his defence against a possible later indictment.

It also appears that the Special Master wants to get the review underway and done at an accelerated timescale; Judge Dearie intends on completing his work by October 7th.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:24 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
The 11th District Court of Appeals gave Trump until noon on Tuesday Sept 20th to present their arguments. At 2 pm that same day, attorneys for both sides will meet with Judge Dearie.

Since Judge Dearie has been instructed by Judge Cannon to review the disputed classified documents first, I wonder if that will happen before the appeals court makes their ruling.

It appears the Special Master situation is not going well for Trump:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 3.97.0.pdf

The Special Master is requiring Trump disclose specific information about his "declassification" of documents. His lawyers are resisting because that could reveal his defence against a possible later indictment.

It also appears that the Special Master wants to get the review underway and done at an accelerated timescale; Judge Dearie intends on completing his work by October 7th.

Whatever. It's pretty clear that Trump has got his hand caught in the cookie jar, and he's like a five year old saying "well you don't see any chocolate in my teeth so I didn't do anything wrong." What's not clear is if it will help him, or hurt him.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:42 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
The 11th District Court of Appeals gave Trump until noon on Tuesday Sept 20th to present their arguments. At 2 pm that same day, attorneys for both sides will meet with Judge Dearie.

Since Judge Dearie has been instructed by Judge Cannon to review the disputed classified documents first, I wonder if that will happen before the appeals court makes their ruling.

It appears the Special Master situation is not going well for Trump:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 3.97.0.pdf

The Special Master is requiring Trump disclose specific information about his "declassification" of documents. His lawyers are resisting because that could reveal his defence against a possible later indictment.

It also appears that the Special Master wants to get the review underway and done at an accelerated timescale; Judge Dearie intends on completing his work by October 7th.


Thanks for posting that. The similar DoJ letter to the Special Master states that they will not turn over the classified materials, until resolution of the appeal.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 3.96.0.pdf

Trump has yet to raise the declassification issue in court, and my guess is they will not unless he is charged. Judge Cannon allowed them to skirt the issue, but Judge Dearie may not. I suspect he recognizes the DoJ position that Trump's assertion of privilege depends on the classification status.

Those are encouraging signs that Judge Dearie will impartially observe the law.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:27 pm

The Special Master has asked the Trump lawyers an important question - what was the declassification procedure?

They cannot answer that, as Trump has never initiated a proper declassification procedure. Which always entails sending a notice to the relevant intelligence organizations, so they are fore-warned that secret info could see the public light.

The Special Master has basically nailed Trump. The logical conclusion is that he illegally possessed classified information.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:24 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
The Special Master has asked the Trump lawyers an important question - what was the declassification procedure?

They cannot answer that, as Trump has never initiated a proper declassification procedure. Which always entails sending a notice to the relevant intelligence organizations, so they are fore-warned that secret info could see the public light.

The Special Master has basically nailed Trump. The logical conclusion is that he illegally possessed classified information.


It's even more complex than that if dealing with TS nuclear materials - the Atomic Energy Act doesn't allow declassification by POTUS at all unless a thorough review is first conducted by Department of Energy.

https://www.energy.gov/ehss/statutes-re ... on-program
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:40 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
The Special Master has asked the Trump lawyers an important question - what was the declassification procedure?

They cannot answer that, as Trump has never initiated a proper declassification procedure. Which always entails sending a notice to the relevant intelligence organizations, so they are fore-warned that secret info could see the public light.

The Special Master has basically nailed Trump. The logical conclusion is that he illegally possessed classified information.

And apparently is not having any attempts by Trump's legal team to delay proceedings; he's moving with great haste to get the work done ASAP. Josh Gerstein (who is the senior Legal Affairs reporter for Politico) is right now live tweeting the hearing, and it's not going well for Trump’s lawyers:

https://twitter.com/joshgerstein/status ... 68emw&s=19
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:40 am

Trump has filed his response to the DoJ 11th District Court appeal, regarding transfer of disputed classified records to his special master & counsel.

1. Trump asserts that the disputed records are both Presidential & personal, thus are only purportedly classified per the DoJ.

2. Trump asserts that review by master & counsel is needed to establish the true status of the records.

3. Trump asserts that the order by Judge Cannon that directs the special master, is not appealable under the law. Further that an appellate ruling would be an intrusion into the trial court.

4. Trump asserts his interest in his Presidential records is irrespective of their classification status.

5. Trump asserts that the burden is on the DoJ to prove the records are classified, and must otherwise be presumed not.

6. Trump asserts that as President he has sole authority to determine classification status, with no bureaucratic burden. Also to distinguish personal from Presidential records. The Archives may only receive what he chooses to send.

7. Trump asserts the burden is on DoJ to prove that Trump would not be harmed by withholding the classified records, with harm being otherwise presumed.

So finally we get the core arguments for Trump's claims. A large number of issues to resolve. Very unusual to raise new trial claims at the appeal. The appeals court could send this back.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... 9ad1af0000
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:47 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Trump has filed his response to the DoJ 11th District Court appeal, regarding transfer of disputed classified records to his special master & counsel.

1. Trump asserts that the disputed records are both Presidential & personal, thus are only purportedly classified by the DoJ.

2. Trump asserts that review by master & counsel is needed to establish the true status of the records.

3. Trump asserts that the order by Judge Cannon that directs the special master, is not appealable under the law. Further that an appellate ruling would be an intrusion into the trial court.

4. Trump asserts his interest in his Presidential records is irrespective of their classification status.

5. Trump asserts that the burden is on the DoJ to prove the records are classified, and must otherwise be presumed not.

6. Trump asserts that as President he has sole authority to determine classification status, with no bureaucratic burden. Also to distinguish personal from Presidential records. The Archives may only receive what he chooses to send.

7. Trump asserts the burden is on DoJ to prove that Trump would not be harmed by withholding the classified records, with harm being otherwise presumed.

So finally we get the core arguments for Trump's claims. A large number of issues to resolve. Very unusual to raise new trial claims at the appeal. The appeals court could send this back.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... 9ad1af0000


Flinging feces as usual - with the now-accustomed generous helpings of specious logic.

The status conference with Judge Dearie did not go well today for him:

"If the government gives me prima facie evidence (a legal term meaning a fact presumed to be true unless disproved) that this is classified, and you decide not to advance a claim of declassification ... as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it," Dearie told Trump's lawyers in his first public hearing on the matter.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/j ... ch-2951366
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:09 am

Aaron747 wrote:

Flinging feces as usual - with the now-accustomed generous helpings of specious logic.

The status conference with Judge Dearie did not go well today for him:

"If the government gives me prima facie evidence (a legal term meaning a fact presumed to be true unless disproved) that this is classified, and you decide not to advance a claim of declassification ... as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it," Dearie told Trump's lawyers in his first public hearing on the matter.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/j ... ch-2951366


Yes, I was very encouraged. Judge Dearie seems to be no-nonsense. He's going to proceed with the non classified materials on an expedited basis, with a goal in early October. And wait for the appeal decision for the classified materials, unless Trump can establish separately that they are not classified.

He also warned them about excessive litigation, saying he's going to do his job and they can litigate afterwards, it they wish.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:51 pm

The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has intervened and granted the DOJ's request for a stay of Judge Cannon's ruling in an unanimous ruling:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... ff83050000

Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.

Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special
master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19,2022, letter from James M. Trusty,et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2–3. In any event, at least for these purposes,the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some orall of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.


In short, the DOJ argued Trump definitively had no possessory interest in clearly marked classified documents. The stay was to release the classified documents and remove the enjoiner placed on the investigation by Judge Cannon. So the FBI will get the classified documents back and will be able to move forward with their investigation.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:47 am

ThePointblank wrote:
The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has intervened and granted the DOJ's request for a stay of Judge Cannon's ruling in an unanimous ruling:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... ff83050000

Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.

Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special
master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19,2022, letter from James M. Trusty,et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2–3. In any event, at least for these purposes,the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some orall of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.


In short, the DOJ argued Trump definitively had no possessory interest in clearly marked classified documents. The stay was to release the classified documents and remove the enjoiner placed on the investigation by Judge Cannon. So the FBI will get the classified documents back and will be able to move forward with their investigation.


Nice to see the two Trump appointees on the 11th circuit signatory to the ruling are still interested in the law compared to the jackassery in the district court.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has intervened and granted the DOJ's request for a stay of Judge Cannon's ruling in an unanimous ruling:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... ff83050000

Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.

Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special
master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19,2022, letter from James M. Trusty,et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2–3. In any event, at least for these purposes,the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some orall of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.


In short, the DOJ argued Trump definitively had no possessory interest in clearly marked classified documents. The stay was to release the classified documents and remove the enjoiner placed on the investigation by Judge Cannon. So the FBI will get the classified documents back and will be able to move forward with their investigation.


Nice to see the two Trump appointees on the 11th circuit signatory to the ruling are still interested in the law compared to the jackassery in the district court.

Indeed. Judge Cannon basically punted the decision the the Circuit Court. Regardless of who appointed her (…) one must question her fitness for the job.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:55 am

luckyone wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has intervened and granted the DOJ's request for a stay of Judge Cannon's ruling in an unanimous ruling:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... ff83050000



In short, the DOJ argued Trump definitively had no possessory interest in clearly marked classified documents. The stay was to release the classified documents and remove the enjoiner placed on the investigation by Judge Cannon. So the FBI will get the classified documents back and will be able to move forward with their investigation.


Nice to see the two Trump appointees on the 11th circuit signatory to the ruling are still interested in the law compared to the jackassery in the district court.

Indeed. Judge Cannon basically punted the decision the the Circuit Court. Regardless of who appointed her (…) one must question her fitness for the job.


That’s a nice way of putting it. The Circuit decision on the stay basically sliced her arguments into oblivion, one by one.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:58 am

ThePointblank wrote:
The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has intervened and granted the DOJ's request for a stay of Judge Cannon's ruling in an unanimous ruling:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... ff83050000

Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.

Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special
master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19,2022, letter from James M. Trusty,et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2–3. In any event, at least for these purposes,the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some orall of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.


In short, the DOJ argued Trump definitively had no possessory interest in clearly marked classified documents. The stay was to release the classified documents and remove the enjoiner placed on the investigation by Judge Cannon. So the FBI will get the classified documents back and will be able to move forward with their investigation.


Thanks for posting this. It's notable that the Appellate court explicitly rejected the "foot in the door" argument with regard to executive privilege, and also the claims that the FBI investigation was not in the public interest, or would harm Trump.

All of those were key in Trump's motions, and in Judge Cannon's rulings. I would imagine she is licking her wounds tonight, as the Court rejected all 8 justifications for standing, equitable jurisdiction, and injunctive relief to protect Trump's interests. Plus criticized her openly.
 
alfa164
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:38 am

Avatar2go wrote:
It's notable that the Appellate court explicitly rejected the "foot in the door" argument with regard to executive privilege, and also the claims that the FBI investigation was not in the public interest, or would harm Trump.
All of those were key in Trump's motions, and in Judge Cannon's rulings. I would imagine she is licking her wounds tonight, as the Court rejected all 8 justifications for standing, equitable jurisdiction, and injunctive relief to protect Trump's interests. Plus criticized her openly.


If "Judge" Cannon had any decency, she would admit that she is in over her head, and tender her resignation effective immediately. Of course, that will never happen.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:10 am

alfa164 wrote:

If "Judge" Cannon had any decency, she would admit that she is in over her head, and tender her resignation effective immediately. Of course, that will never happen.


I think she carried his water for him, to the extent that she could without being impeached or disbarred. She gave him a shot at his claims. But there's little more she could do for him now. The appellate court openly questioned her assertion of court's discretion, pointing out that it defied the legal standard for applying discretion. That's about as close as they could come to an accusation of bias or partisanship.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:22 am

This is a little humorous. This morning, a group of GOP attorneys general from 11 states, filed an amicus brief with the appeals court, claiming the DOJ was politically biased against Trump, as an extension of the Biden administration. And that the court should be suspicious of anything presented by the government with regard to Trump.

The attorneys general from Texas, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Louisiana, South Carolina, Utah and West Virginia were involved. Legal experts said it contained no legal arguments, just distrust of the DoJ, and that Trump is being persecuted.

Sorry I could not find a link to the brief itself. Here is a WaPo article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... -lago-fbi/

What's funny about this is that the court totally ignored it, which was appropriate. They probably hoped the judges would be Team Trump like themselves, and Judge Cannon.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:35 am

Avatar2go wrote:
This is a little humorous. This morning, a group of GOP attorneys general from 11 states, filed an amicus brief with the appeals court, claiming the DOJ was politically biased against Trump, as an extension of the Biden administration. And that the court should be suspicious of anything presented by the government with regard to Trump.

The attorneys general from Texas, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Louisiana, South Carolina, Utah and West Virginia were involved. Legal experts said it contained no legal arguments, just distrust of the DoJ, and that Trump is being persecuted.

Sorry I could not find a link to the brief itself. Here is a WaPo article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... -lago-fbi/

What's funny about this is that the court totally ignored it, which was appropriate. They probably hoped the judges would be Team Trump like themselves, and Judge Cannon.


I know the GOP is immune to irony, but jeesh...

At the end of the day, those are just powerless henchmen pleading their allegiance to the godfather.
Much akin to judge Cannon, they do whatever they can within the limited influence and means they have to help the boss, but without stepping over the line that would get them in trouble. They probably remember that loyalty to Trump is very much a one way street.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:53 am

Francoflier wrote:

I know the GOP is immune to irony, but jeesh...

At the end of the day, those are just powerless henchmen pleading their allegiance to the godfather.
Much akin to judge Cannon, they do whatever they can within the limited influence and means they have to help the boss, but without stepping over the line that would get them in trouble. They probably remember that loyalty to Trump is very much a one way street.


My first thought when I read the article, was where do they find these people? But then I realized not only are they are all over the country, but they are being elected to positions of power. Some like Paxton in Texas, are under continuous investigation themselves, despite being the head of law enforcement. I don't know how that even happens.

Politicians used to resign when caught. Now their campaign donations go up. It's a badge of honor.

Economists talk about the phenomena of bubbles, and the irrational market. We seem to have irrational political bubbles as well. I can't wait for this one to burst.
 
wingman
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:13 pm

There is a massive faction of the GOP, voters and elected officials alike that are agitating for the destruction of the United States as it was envisioned and founded. This group is well beyond "deplorable", they represent a clear and present danger. I used to marvel at the realization that shooting a baby wouldn't dent Trump support by more than one percentage point. Today I marvel that the DOJ catching Trump red-handed selling nuclear secrets or exposing active agent networks would likely double his political donations. He's a cult of personality rooted in fear and ignorance so deep that it's become a malignant cancer. It's a tragic period we're living through.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:13 pm

wingman wrote:
There is a massive faction of the GOP, voters and elected officials alike that are agitating for the destruction of the United States as it was envisioned and founded. This group is well beyond "deplorable", they represent a clear and present danger. I used to marvel at the realization that shooting a baby wouldn't dent Trump support by more than one percentage point. Today I marvel that the DOJ catching Trump red-handed selling nuclear secrets or exposing active agent networks would likely double his political donations. He's a cult of personality rooted in fear and ignorance so deep that it's become a malignant cancer. It's a tragic period we're living through.


It is tragic, but i have noticed on a lot of sites that the MAGA fans themselves have gone stone cold quiet. I know some vocal ones are still screaming , finding ways to say this is a "witch hunt" , or targeting, but boy the witch hunt is finding a lot of witches and hitting the bullseye. This week has really taken it home to a lot of people how far outside the norm Trump,. I like to think that seeing Trump get all the benefits of being rich and powerful as he is able to hire lawyer after lawyer to defend the indefensible may be starting to strike a chord. Especially when they see how he can claim places are worth millions/billions, that are insolvent.

Trump has some issues ahead of him, and i think that the reasonable members of the GOP are starting to really understand how bad Trump is for their future. Especially a future where Trump continues on this QAnon fueled spree of lying and scheming to someone get people to pay for his continued ability to flout the law.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:53 pm

I agree with this, I've noticed the same thing. There was almost no objection to the appellate court ruling yesterday.

In the McCarthy era, he had very wide support, until suddenly he didn't. As Murrow said, he hung himself with his own words. That is a common fate for cults of personality. They rely on people accepting their words in defiance of reality, but there are limits to how far that can be pushed.

Most people like Trump and McCarthy, aren't able to see that limit. Hence you have Trump ignoring his advisors, and dispatching those that disagree, being convinced instead of his own personal power.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:05 pm

Trump is hanging on to his assertion that he has absolute power to declassify documents. He said in an interview with Sean Hannity, that he could do so even by thinking about it.

In the same interview, he also said he doesn't know what was in the boxes, as they were packed by the General Services Administration, not by him or his staff.

So basically he is saying that he thought about declassifying documents that he didn't know he had, or was going to take.

And I guess, that he also didn't know those documents were in his office at Mar-a-Lago, or in his desk.

If his next defense is to blame the GSA, that also contradicts his defense that he separated and declared those documents as personal records, by not providing them to the Archives.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/2 ... t-00058212
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:15 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Trump is hanging on to his assertion that he has absolutely power to declassify documents. He said in an interview with Sean Hannity, that he could do so even by thinking about it.

In the same interview, he also said he doesn't know what was in the boxes, as they were packed by the General Services Administration, not by him or his staff.

So basically he is saying that he thought about declassifying documents that he didn't know he had, or was going to take.

And I guess, that he also didn't know those documents were in his office at Mar-a-Lago, or in his desk.

If his next defense is to blame the GSA, that also contradicts his defense that he separated and declared those documents as personal records, by not providing them to the Archives.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/2 ... t-00058212


If he didn't know or care what was in those documents, why didn't he hand them back when they were asked for?

This is the Narcissist blaming everyone for his own failure.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... r%20others.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:28 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
They cannot answer that, as Trump has never initiated a proper declassification procedure. Which always entails sending a notice to the relevant intelligence organizations, so they are fore-warned that secret info could see the public light.


I wonder if this is related:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/p ... tured.html

https://thehill.com/policy/national-sec ... d-nyt/amp/
 
bluecrew
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:36 pm

zkojq wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
They cannot answer that, as Trump has never initiated a proper declassification procedure. Which always entails sending a notice to the relevant intelligence organizations, so they are fore-warned that secret info could see the public light.


I wonder if this is related:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/p ... tured.html

https://thehill.com/policy/national-sec ... d-nyt/amp/

It's not great - but I think it's more telling of a drift in US intelligence away from what we were "good" at.

NY Times Article wrote:
Mr. London said he was unaware of the cable. But his new book, “The Recruiter: Spying and the Lost Art of American Intelligence,” argues that the C.I.A.’s shift toward covert action and paramilitary operations undermined traditional espionage that relies on securely recruiting and handling agents.


This is very in-line with the voluminous and excellent work Legacy of Ashes: A History of the CIA by Tim Weiner. Highly recommend that book - the CIA has never really been good at this, and we've benefited from a favorable environment for intelligence, others mistakes, and assistance from very smart, willing, and motivated assets for decades. CIA has bungled ops and lost assets left and right for its entire existence. We aren't very good at spying. I don't think they're necessarily related, but I wouldn't be surprised if their approach to operational security got at least a few people burned. I.E. the Lavrov meeting, would love to know what they discussed. I'm sure it was a "perfect meeting, the best meeting, nobody has meetings like this."
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:56 pm

It appears that Judge Cannon has struck portions of her earlier order preventing the FBI and DOJ from probing the classified documents and to hand them over to the Special Master:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... on-922.pdf

That was quick.

She also may have just made it more difficult for Trump to appeal to the SCOTUS. The 11th Circuit only stayed parts of her order; Cannon amended her order to remove those parts. As a result the parts of her original order pertaining to the obviously classified documents no longer exist, and the 11th Circuit's decision is now legally moot. The other parts are still active pending full review. At this moment, there's nothing to appeal to SCOTUS and there won't be until the 11th is done with their full review, which could be a while.

In short, because she amended the order to remove the parts that were stayed, the stay no longer exists. There's nothing for Trump to appeal (for now). The classified docs are completely off the table until after Trump is indicted.

While Trump could appeal Canon's decision, it would end up back at the 11th Circuit, who would likely dismiss it anyways because Cannon's edits are effectively their edits.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:50 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
It appears that Judge Cannon has struck portions of her earlier order preventing the FBI and DOJ from probing the classified documents and to hand them over to the Special Master:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... on-922.pdf

That was quick.

She also may have just made it more difficult for Trump to appeal to the SCOTUS. The 11th Circuit only stayed parts of her order; Cannon amended her order to remove those parts. As a result the parts of her original order pertaining to the obviously classified documents no longer exist, and the 11th Circuit's decision is now legally moot. The other parts are still active pending full review. At this moment, there's nothing to appeal to SCOTUS and there won't be until the 11th is done with their full review, which could be a while.

In short, because she amended the order to remove the parts that were stayed, the stay no longer exists. There's nothing for Trump to appeal (for now). The classified docs are completely off the table until after Trump is indicted.

While Trump could appeal Canon's decision, it would end up back at the 11th Circuit, who would likely dismiss it anyways because Cannon's edits are effectively their edits.

Wow. It’s almost like she should’ve phoned a friend.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:19 pm

luckyone wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
It appears that Judge Cannon has struck portions of her earlier order preventing the FBI and DOJ from probing the classified documents and to hand them over to the Special Master:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... on-922.pdf

That was quick.

She also may have just made it more difficult for Trump to appeal to the SCOTUS. The 11th Circuit only stayed parts of her order; Cannon amended her order to remove those parts. As a result the parts of her original order pertaining to the obviously classified documents no longer exist, and the 11th Circuit's decision is now legally moot. The other parts are still active pending full review. At this moment, there's nothing to appeal to SCOTUS and there won't be until the 11th is done with their full review, which could be a while.

In short, because she amended the order to remove the parts that were stayed, the stay no longer exists. There's nothing for Trump to appeal (for now). The classified docs are completely off the table until after Trump is indicted.

While Trump could appeal Canon's decision, it would end up back at the 11th Circuit, who would likely dismiss it anyways because Cannon's edits are effectively their edits.

Wow. It’s almost like she should’ve phoned a friend.

Or she was very smart and knew Trump's team would appeal not matter what. So instead she kept control and booted it to the 11th for review, knowing what they would say/do, then was able to keep things moving and stop Trump's delay8ing tactics when the decision was rendered and she struck those parts.

Tugg
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
Or she was very smart and knew Trump's team would appeal not matter what. So instead she kept control and booted it to the 11th for review, knowing what they would say/do, then was able to keep things moving and stop Trump's delay8ing tactics when the decision was rendered and she struck those parts.

Tugg


I would say rather, this is damage control. She had to know she was hanging herself out there, with a very stretched ruling that as she herself said, kept Trump's foot in the door. She did that successfully, but now the door has been shut by another court.

With that occurrence, she is bringing her ruling back into accordance with the law. For the other aspects of her ruling, the DoJ did not agree, but did not contest either. They don't oppose the special master, even though they think it unnecessary.

In my view, the special master may be beneficial because Trump cannot claim he is being persecuted by his own special master. It really all depended on who the special master was. Judge Dearie has established that he is not a true believer, he just wants to do the job fairly and well.

It's like Biden said, and the Jan 6 committee has also thoroughly demonstrated. It's not conservatism itself that's toxic, it's the MAGA wing of it that Trump has created.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:35 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Or she was very smart and knew Trump's team would appeal not matter what. So instead she kept control and booted it to the 11th for review, knowing what they would say/do, then was able to keep things moving and stop Trump's delay8ing tactics when the decision was rendered and she struck those parts.

Tugg


I would say rather, this is damage control. She had to know she was hanging herself out there, with a very stretched ruling that as she herself said, kept Trump's foot in the door. She did that successfully, but now the door has been shut by another court.

With that occurrence, she is bringing her ruling back into accordance with the law. For the other aspects of her ruling, the DoJ did not agree, but did not contest either. They don't oppose the special master, even though they think it unnecessary.

In my view, the special master may be beneficial because Trump cannot claim he is being persecuted by his own special master. It really all depended on who the special master was. Judge Dearie has established that he is not a true believer, he just wants to do the job fairly and well.

It's like Biden said, and the Jan 6 committee has also thoroughly demonstrated. It's not conservatism itself that's toxic, it's the MAGA wing of it that Trump has created.

If you haven’t already thought so, mark it now. Trump WILL complain about his special master. The road is littered with only the best people that Trump appointed who didn’t do his bidding and became targets of convenience when they were of no use to him.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:02 pm

luckyone wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Or she was very smart and knew Trump's team would appeal not matter what. So instead she kept control and booted it to the 11th for review, knowing what they would say/do, then was able to keep things moving and stop Trump's delay8ing tactics when the decision was rendered and she struck those parts.

Tugg


I would say rather, this is damage control. She had to know she was hanging herself out there, with a very stretched ruling that as she herself said, kept Trump's foot in the door. She did that successfully, but now the door has been shut by another court.

With that occurrence, she is bringing her ruling back into accordance with the law. For the other aspects of her ruling, the DoJ did not agree, but did not contest either. They don't oppose the special master, even though they think it unnecessary.

In my view, the special master may be beneficial because Trump cannot claim he is being persecuted by his own special master. It really all depended on who the special master was. Judge Dearie has established that he is not a true believer, he just wants to do the job fairly and well.

It's like Biden said, and the Jan 6 committee has also thoroughly demonstrated. It's not conservatism itself that's toxic, it's the MAGA wing of it that Trump has created.

If you haven’t already thought so, mark it now. Trump WILL complain about his special master. The road is littered with only the best people that Trump appointed who didn’t do his bidding and became targets of convenience when they were of no use to him.


Little else the country could have expected from a dude known to stiff contractors with 15% of contracted payment, but millions voted for him anyway, because....reality TV, or something.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:09 pm

luckyone wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Or she was very smart and knew Trump's team would appeal not matter what. So instead she kept control and booted it to the 11th for review, knowing what they would say/do, then was able to keep things moving and stop Trump's delay8ing tactics when the decision was rendered and she struck those parts.

Tugg


I would say rather, this is damage control. She had to know she was hanging herself out there, with a very stretched ruling that as she herself said, kept Trump's foot in the door. She did that successfully, but now the door has been shut by another court.

With that occurrence, she is bringing her ruling back into accordance with the law. For the other aspects of her ruling, the DoJ did not agree, but did not contest either. They don't oppose the special master, even though they think it unnecessary.

In my view, the special master may be beneficial because Trump cannot claim he is being persecuted by his own special master. It really all depended on who the special master was. Judge Dearie has established that he is not a true believer, he just wants to do the job fairly and well.

It's like Biden said, and the Jan 6 committee has also thoroughly demonstrated. It's not conservatism itself that's toxic, it's the MAGA wing of it that Trump has created.

If you haven’t already thought so, mark it now. Trump WILL complain about his special master. The road is littered with only the best people that Trump appointed who didn’t do his bidding and became targets of convenience when they were of no use to him.


He will especially complain after Judge Dearie's order today - instructing Trump attorneys to line-item inventory any document claimed to be privileged, as well as any claims of FBI misconduct. And for added fun, he is appointing an assistant at $500/hour, to be paid by Trump.

https://twitter.com/NormEisen/status/15 ... 0301956100?

https://t.co/lwyLvQ4tyP
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2039
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:22 pm

luckyone wrote:
If you haven’t already thought so, mark it now. Trump WILL complain about his special master. The road is littered with only the best people that Trump appointed who didn’t do his bidding and became targets of convenience when they were of no use to him.


Lol!!! I'm sure you are right, and this made me laugh. It does fit Trump's behavior perfectly. Except he can't fire Judge Dearie like on the Apprentice.

Hopefully someone around Trump, perhaps Krise, would advise him to keep his mouth shut. But then again, no one has succeeded at that so far.

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