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luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:25 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
luckyone wrote:
If you haven’t already thought so, mark it now. Trump WILL complain about his special master. The road is littered with only the best people that Trump appointed who didn’t do his bidding and became targets of convenience when they were of no use to him.


Lol!!! I'm sure you are right, and this made me laugh. It does fit Trump's behavior perfectly. Except he can't fire Judge Dearie like on the Apprentice.

Hopefully someone around Trump, perhaps Krise, would advise him to keep his mouth shut. But then again, no one has succeeded at that so far.

A recklessly self-indulgent narcissist like Trump can be controlled about as well a hurricane. The best course of action is to steer clear of them — too bad something like that wasn’t pointed out in 2015…oh, wait…
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:37 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

He will especially complain after Judge Dearie's order today - instructing Trump attorneys to line-item inventory any document claimed to be privileged, as well as any claims of FBI misconduct. And for added fun, he is appointing an assistant at $500/hour, to be paid by Trump.

https://t.co/lwyLvQ4tyP


Thanks for posting this link. The order shows that Judge Dearie has placed the burden of proof on Trump, as to whether he has any claim to the documents.

So that is another of Trump's arguments shot down. He had asserted that the burden was on the DoJ to show the documents did not belong to Trump.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:53 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Or she was very smart and knew Trump's team would appeal not matter what. So instead she kept control and booted it to the 11th for review, knowing what they would say/do, then was able to keep things moving and stop Trump's delay8ing tactics when the decision was rendered and she struck those parts.

Tugg


I would say rather, this is damage control. She had to know she was hanging herself out there, with a very stretched ruling that as she herself said, kept Trump's foot in the door. She did that successfully, but now the door has been shut by another court.

With that occurrence, she is bringing her ruling back into accordance with the law. For the other aspects of her ruling, the DoJ did not agree, but did not contest either. They don't oppose the special master, even though they think it unnecessary.

In my view, the special master may be beneficial because Trump cannot claim he is being persecuted by his own special master. It really all depended on who the special master was. Judge Dearie has established that he is not a true believer, he just wants to do the job fairly and well.

It's like Biden said, and the Jan 6 committee has also thoroughly demonstrated. It's not conservatism itself that's toxic, it's the MAGA wing of it that Trump has created.

Correct; this feels like damage control.

Judges do not like being contradicted by another level, and the 11th Circuit absolutely demolished every reason why she should have interjected herself into the case in the first place.

They started out with saying that Judge Cannon abused her discretion to interject herself into the case which would have been enough to provide the stay that DoJ was seeking:

Here, the district court concluded that Plaintiff did not show that the United States acted in callous disregard of his constitutional rights. Doc. No. 64 at 9. No party contests the district court’s finding in this regard. The absence of this “indispensab[le]” factor in the Richey analysis is reason enough to conclude that the district court abused its discretion in exercising equitable jurisdiction here. Chapman, 559 F.2d at 406. But for the sake of completeness, we consider the remaining factors.


And then followed up with the next 12 pages of demolishing every other possible reason used as well. Basically, the 11th Circuit said Trump had:
No interest or need for any of the documents seized, especially with the classified documents;
Had no need to know;
Had no evidence of declassification;
Would not be irreparably harmed by denial of the return of the property;
That the mere threat of prosecution is not enough to be irreparably harmed;
Did not seek the return of said documents through a Rule 41(g) motion;
Nor identified why he wants them back

The court appeared to be confused as to why Judge Cannon inserted herself here, and issued a fairly tersely worded slap down. Not only did they tell her she was wrong, but that she was completely wrong from the get go, we're upset as a result, so don't do this again.

Per the 11th Circuit, Judge Cannon completely misapplied the law with respect to the Richey factors, and she completely got elementary things wrong like the general rule that a court should not grant extraordinary relief that the plaintiff has not even requested, and who bears the burden of proof in obtaining relief. She seemed to be saying in her original ruling that the government has not proven that the classified documents are classified, so the plaintiff should be entitled to the requested relief.

In reality, that's the inverse of the burden; Trump was the plaintiff, so it was incumbent on him to prove that he had a right to possess the seized materials that entitled him to an injunction, in addition to meeting the Richey factors.

Of note, Judge Cannon did not have to amend her original order, but she chose to anyways. It's definitely damage control on her part.

And her reversal of her original decision also makes it worse for Trump; not only that if he wanted to appeal this have to start all over and go back to the 11th Circuit for an appeal, it's likely the 11th Circuit would not even give him the time of day; courts go out of their way to avoid contradicting themselves. Trump's lawyers would have to find new arguments for such an appeal as the 11th Circuit has already weighed in the existing arguments they used. If Trump's lawyers tried to repeat the same claims they used for such an appeal, it would be shot down quick; in effect, they would be telling Trump's lawyers "We already weighed in on that against you just a few days ago; are you guys and gals deaf and blind?"

Providing a stay on the order requiring classified documents be reviewed by a special master then granting an appeal on an order NOT requiring classified documents be shared with a special master after the original order was modified to reflect the ruling in the original stay… would be confusing and pointless at best.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:15 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Correct; this feels like damage control.

Judges do not like being contradicted by another level, and the 11th Circuit absolutely demolished every reason why she should have interjected herself into the case in the first place.

They started out with saying that Judge Cannon abused her discretion to interject herself into the case which would have been enough to provide the stay that DoJ was seeking:

Here, the district court concluded that Plaintiff did not show that the United States acted in callous disregard of his constitutional rights. Doc. No. 64 at 9. No party contests the district court’s finding in this regard. The absence of this “indispensab[le]” factor in the Richey analysis is reason enough to conclude that the district court abused its discretion in exercising equitable jurisdiction here. Chapman, 559 F.2d at 406. But for the sake of completeness, we consider the remaining factors.


And then followed up with the next 12 pages of demolishing every other possible reason used as well. Basically, the 11th Circuit said Trump had:
No interest or need for any of the documents seized, especially with the classified documents;
Had no need to know;
Had no evidence of declassification;
Would not be irreparably harmed by denial of the return of the property;
That the mere threat of prosecution is not enough to be irreparably harmed;
Did not seek the return of said documents through a Rule 41(g) motion;
Nor identified why he wants them back

The court appeared to be confused as to why Judge Cannon inserted herself here, and issued a fairly tersely worded slap down. Not only did they tell her she was wrong, but that she was completely wrong from the get go, we're upset as a result, so don't do this again.

Per the 11th Circuit, Judge Cannon completely misapplied the law with respect to the Richey factors, and she completely got elementary things wrong like the general rule that a court should not grant extraordinary relief that the plaintiff has not even requested, and who bears the burden of proof in obtaining relief. She seemed to be saying in her original ruling that the government has not proven that the classified documents are classified, so the plaintiff should be entitled to the requested relief.

In reality, that's the inverse of the burden; Trump was the plaintiff, so it was incumbent on him to prove that he had a right to possess the seized materials that entitled him to an injunction, in addition to meeting the Richey factors.

Of note, Judge Cannon did not have to amend her original order, but she chose to anyways. It's definitely damage control on her part.

And her reversal of her original decision also makes it worse for Trump; not only that if he wanted to appeal this have to start all over and go back to the 11th Circuit for an appeal, it's likely the 11th Circuit would not even give him the time of day; courts go out of their way to avoid contradicting themselves. Trump's lawyers would have to find new arguments for such an appeal as the 11th Circuit has already weighed in the existing arguments they used. If Trump's lawyers tried to repeat the same claims they used for such an appeal, it would be shot down quick; in effect, they would be telling Trump's lawyers "We already weighed in on that against you just a few days ago; are you guys and gals deaf and blind?"

Providing a stay on the order requiring classified documents be reviewed by a special master then granting an appeal on an order NOT requiring classified documents be shared with a special master after the original order was modified to reflect the ruling in the original stay… would be confusing and pointless at best.


An excellent summary and analysis. I thought it was particularly telling that the appeals court critically addressed Judge Cannon's use of "court's discretion" and "inherent supervisory authority".

While courts do have discretion, the appellate court found that Judge Cannon had completely ignored the legal standards for applying it.

The district court referred fleetingly to invoking its “inherent supervisory authority,” though it is unclear whether it utilized this authority with respect to the orders at issue in this appeal. Either way, the court’s exercise of its inherent authority is subject to two limits:

(1) it “must be a reasonable response to the problems and needs confronting the court’s fair administration of justice,” and

(2) it “cannot be contrary to any express grant of or limitation on the district court’s power contained in a rule or statute.”

Dietz v. Bouldin, 136 S. Ct. 1885, 1892 (2016) (quotation omitted).

The district court did not explain why the exercise of its inherent authority concerning the documents with classified markings would fall within these bounds.
Last edited by Avatar2go on Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:01 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Trump is hanging on to his assertion that he has absolute power to declassify documents. He said in an interview with Sean Hannity, that he could do so even by thinking about it.

In the same interview, he also said he doesn't know what was in the boxes, as they were packed by the General Services Administration, not by him or his staff.

So basically he is saying that he thought about declassifying documents that he didn't know he had, or was going to take.

And I guess, that he also didn't know those documents were in his office at Mar-a-Lago, or in his desk.

If his next defense is to blame the GSA, that also contradicts his defense that he separated and declared those documents as personal records, by not providing them to the Archives.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/2 ... t-00058212

I’m going to borrow a line from Vanity Fair (I wish I was this clever).

“ Trump is one day away from claiming Biden used witchcraft to reclassify them.”
 
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seb146
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:54 am

but... our side... the election... it was... stolen... we say it was stolen so it was. look at all these people saying it was stolen. all the right wing talking heads saying the election was stolen. the fact checkers are simply liberal snowflakes, so ignore the fact based... er.... fact checkers. they don't matter. facts don't matter because we screamed that our side won months before any election. our side demanded elections were rigged months before so we won because we said so so listen to us because we said so because our talking heads say we won

This is how MAGA Republicans sound. And their base believes it. For some reason.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:44 am

luckyone wrote:
I’m going to borrow a line from Vanity Fair (I wish I was this clever).

“ Trump is one day away from claiming Biden used witchcraft to reclassify them.”


No, I think it was Hillary, somehow. Probably using her email server or something.

At the end of the day, his rhetoric will never change. If anything untowards happens to him, it's because of political repression, not because he did anything illegal or wrong. His base has been lapping it up since the beginning and will keep doing so seemingly forever.
The problem with messianic fanaticism is that it is impervious to reality.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:03 am

LOL, so now he's saying that declassifying top secret documents has no process and can be done just by thinking about it and that there is "speculation" that the FBI raid may have been to look for the stolen Hilary emails.

Man, this is just straight up comedy gold :rotfl:
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:31 am

Here's the Mar-a-Lago portion of the Fox/Hannity interview with Trump, for those who haven't seen it.

The notable thing, is that Trump is completely sincere in the things he says, so much so that people who are responding emotionally, rather than logically, are easily taken in.

But there are moments when he transitions to his true feelings. For example, he talks about the wonderful relationship he has with the Archives, and how they wrote him a letter of thanks for his cooperation with the first 15 boxes. No problems at all, no reason for a raid, all they had to do was ask.

But later in the interview, he claims the Archives are left-wingers who have conspired against him, and that many of his documents will never again see the light of day. It's easy to see how that view drove his resistance and desire to keep the documents.

Also he brought up the Hillary emails, in the context of the only issue that could possibly be serious enough to warrant the search. Again he sincerely believes this, that the Hillary email scandal was the worst travesty of justice in recent years, and his supporters will respond to that sincerity.

He also claims that Judge Reinhart hates him, but did not recuse himself as he did in an earlier case where Trump had sued Hillary in civil court. However in that case Reinhart would have ruled on the merits, for or against Trump. In a search warrant motion, the judge only decides if the government has met the probable cause standard.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8dvl3t
 
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ER757
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:50 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
luckyone wrote:
If you haven’t already thought so, mark it now. Trump WILL complain about his special master. The road is littered with only the best people that Trump appointed who didn’t do his bidding and became targets of convenience when they were of no use to him.


Lol!!! I'm sure you are right, and this made me laugh. It does fit Trump's behavior perfectly. Except he can't fire Judge Dearie like on the Apprentice.

Hopefully someone around Trump, perhaps Krise, would advise him to keep his mouth shut. But then again, no one has succeeded at that so far.

The only time this sufferer of chronic verbal diarrhea will ever keep his mouth shut is when he is longer drawing breath. Until then, he hasn't got the common sense to know when to STFU.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:58 am

ACDC8 wrote:
LOL, so now he's saying that declassifying top secret documents has no process and can be done just by thinking about it and that there is "speculation" that the FBI raid may have been to look for the stolen Hilary emails.

Man, this is just straight up comedy gold :rotfl:


I wonder if Obama thought about declassifying Area 51 paperwork? Someone might need to file a FOIA request ;)
 
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seb146
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:00 am

I am still not understanding how he is above the law? How can he get away with doing this clearly illegal activity? Why is he above the law? More to the point: if he is above the law, we all are, right? Laws don't matter, they are simply suggestions. He is above the law, so we all are, right? I thought about it, so it must be true!
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:30 am

seb146 wrote:
I am still not understanding how he is above the law? How can he get away with doing this clearly illegal activity? Why is he above the law? More to the point: if he is above the law, we all are, right? Laws don't matter, they are simply suggestions. He is above the law, so we all are, right? I thought about it, so it must be true!


It's not yet established that he is above the law. The DoJ is investigating and will reach a conclusion as to whether to charge him. Not clear yet what that decision would be.

He tried to legally challenge the investigation and that has now failed. So it will proceed and we'll have to see what it yields.

I had to laugh, I saw Marco Rubio on the news complaining that the Intelligence Committees have received no updates from the DoJ or NDI on the classified documents. Well yeah, your buddy went to court and got an injunction, remember? Does Congress think it's immune? No thinking or reasoning skills amongst the MAGA's.

I also had a chance to read the Trump case for which Judge Reinhart recused himself. Trump filed a stunning 193 page RICO complaint (racketeering) against Hillary and numerous other people, for conspiring to besmirch his good name. Also tried to have the judge removed because he had been appointed by President Clinton.

The judge wrote an equally stunning 63 page dismissal order, which he said barely touched on the legal errors in the complaint.

So it's likely Judge Reinhart foresaw the train wreck and wanted no part of it, nor probably felt he could remain impartial in the face of that.

It was amusing that the judge in that case described the complaint as a manifesto of every greivance Trump had ever endured in his political life. And a complete waste of the court's time.

The cherry on top was that the judge used Trump's own Tweets to refute his arguments. He openly wondered how claims could be made when the plaintiff's own public statements countered them.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:13 am

Avatar2go wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I am still not understanding how he is above the law? How can he get away with doing this clearly illegal activity? Why is he above the law? More to the point: if he is above the law, we all are, right? Laws don't matter, they are simply suggestions. He is above the law, so we all are, right? I thought about it, so it must be true!


It's not yet established that he is above the law. The DoJ is investigating and will reach a conclusion as to whether to charge him. Not clear yet what that decision would be.

He tried to legally challenge the investigation and that has now failed. So it will proceed and we'll have to see what it yields.

I had to laugh, I saw Marco Rubio on the news complaining that the Intelligence Committees have received no updates from the DoJ or NDI on the classified documents. Well yeah, your buddy went to court and got an injunction, remember? Does Congress think it's immune? No thinking or reasoning skills amongst the MAGA's.

I also had a chance to read the Trump case for which Judge Reinhart recused himself. Trump filed a stunning 193 page RICO complaint (racketeering) against Hillary and numerous other people, for conspiring to besmirch his good name. Also tried to have the judge removed because he had been appointed by President Clinton.

The judge wrote an equally stunning 63 page dismissal order, which he said barely touched on the legal errors in the complaint.

So it's likely Judge Reinhart foresaw the train wreck and wanted no part of it, nor probably felt he could remain impartial in the face of that.

It was amusing that the judge in that case described the complaint as a manifesto of every greivance Trump had ever endured in his political life. And a complete waste of the court's time.

The cherry on top was that the judge used Trump's own Tweets to refute his arguments. He openly wondered how claims could be made when the plaintiff's own public statements countered them.

In effect, Trump is fundraising at tax payer expense. The grift continues.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:07 am

Avatar2go wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I am still not understanding how he is above the law? How can he get away with doing this clearly illegal activity? Why is he above the law? More to the point: if he is above the law, we all are, right? Laws don't matter, they are simply suggestions. He is above the law, so we all are, right? I thought about it, so it must be true!


It's not yet established that he is above the law.


He and his followers have already determined he is above the law. They all scream this is "partisan". Following the rule of law is "partisan" according to he and his followers. So, he is above the law. He even shopped around for a judge who would do his bidding for him. Judge Cannon decided he is above the law. He even sided with "the storm is coming" which is a Q reference to slaughter those who disagree with him, the anointed one.

Ever watch Star Trek? Know anything about The Borg? This is what MAGA reminds me of. And it is frightening.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:41 am

seb146 wrote:

He and his followers have already determined he is above the law. They all scream this is "partisan". Following the rule of law is "partisan" according to he and his followers. So, he is above the law. He even shopped around for a judge who would do his bidding for him. Judge Cannon decided he is above the law. He even sided with "the storm is coming" which is a Q reference to slaughter those who disagree with him, the anointed one.

Ever watch Star Trek? Know anything about The Borg? This is what MAGA reminds me of. And it is frightening.


There are some similarities between the Borg and MAGA's. But I would say the greatest similarity with Trump is Khan. He leads the MAGA's but mostly in his own interests. So he effectively uses them, for fundraising and other things, while pretending to do so in their interests. As others have noted here as well. It's what all cult leaders and con men do.

As far as shopping for a judge, they can shop for a court district, but not a particular judge, who are assigned randomly. As is always the case, if Trump accuses someone else of something, it's because he is doing it himself.

In this case the DoJ sought a magistrate court in the Mar-a-Lago district, because all they needed was approval of a probable cause warrant, not to decide the merits of the case. Trump sought an injunction based on the merits of Trump's rights, so they sought out the district court. They could also have gone before the originating magistrate, as Judge Cannon noted, but he would have ruled only on the probable cause issue.

Trump has used the shopping allegation to say that the DoJ sought out Judge Reinhart based on his earlier recusal in the Hillary lawsuit. But like most Trump claims, that is false.

The main thing to understand is that Trump can elevate himself amongst his own followers, but not in the real world. That is why cult leaders need the cult. With Judge Cannon, he had at least a sympathetic advocate, if not a follower. But elsewhere he does not. So he will hop around trying to find a similar advocate. It's why he goes through lawyers and courts and advisors at a rapid rate. They might be taken in at first, but eventually they either get burned or disgusted, or both.

Judge Cannon got burned pretty well by the appellate court. Guiliani, Eastman, Meadows, Powell, Bobb, most of his ever-changing inner circle, have been burned by the Jan 6 committee and the DoJ. Others like Barr and the many associates whom have offered testimony on Jan 6, got disgusted.

He will always have a cult, in the MAGA following. In other forums, I'm routinely assured he will be elected again in 2024. As Trump himself said, there is nothing he could do to lose their allegiance. But there are fewer and fewer of them as time goes on.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:17 am

ThePointblank wrote:
They started out with saying that Judge Cannon abused her discretion to interject herself into the case which would have been enough to provide the stay that DoJ was seeking:
(…)
Not only did they tell her she was wrong, but that she was completely wrong from the get go,

Can judges be disbarred when they let personal opinions cloud their judgement? If so, would this actually happen, or is it more a theoretical possibility that’s never really followed up
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:27 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Judge Cannon got burned pretty well by the appellate court. Guiliani, Eastman, Meadows, Powell, Bobb, most of his ever-changing inner circle, have been burned by the Jan 6 committee and the DoJ. Others like Barr and the many associates whom have offered testimony on Jan 6, got disgusted.


He uses these people as human shields.
Once they've taken the bullet, he just dumps them and grabs another one, who will suffer the same fate.

It has been going on for years and his MO is now obvious to anyone outside of a toddler, yet people keep lining up somehow...
The comparisons to a cult are so frequent they almost lose their meaning but nothing else describes the Trump movement quite as aptly.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:50 am

petertenthije wrote:
Can judges be disbarred when they let personal opinions cloud their judgement? If so, would this actually happen, or is it more a theoretical possibility that’s never really followed up


Judges can be impeached from their position by the legislature, or be removed or demoted administratively by their fellow judges. And they can be subsequently disbarred.

But as with all such actions, there is a high burden involved. The judge would have to be openly corrupt or incompetent, or have a history of legally incorrect rulings.

Judge Cannon found case law to support her rulings, but she stretched their interpretation to the limit, which drew a rebuke from the appellate court. She was careful to stay inside the red lines, and then immediately struck her own ruling.

So did she advocate on behalf of Trump? Yes, but only by holding the door open to further legal action, as she herself said. It's why she studiously avoided ruling on Trump's assertion of privilege and declassification powers, or on how the master would function, leaving that up to others to decide.

Effectively she gave him a pass-through. But in the end it didn't matter. That's unlikely to be actionable, apart from the damage to her reputation.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:17 pm

More detailed inventory per the DOJ has been filed with the Special Master:

https://pacer-documents.s3.amazonaws.co ... 111467.pdf

That's a lot of government documents, many with classification markings, especially for someone who doesn't read.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:11 am

So it appears that all the confidential & classified materials have been segregated and retained by the FBI for their investigation, but the remainder will be reviewed by the master. It will be interesting to see the conflict between what Trump claims is his, and what DoJ claims as National Archives materials.
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:57 pm

This YouTube has an excellent and clear analysis of the legal events AND worth waiting to the end.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-N6h4_ey6c
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:47 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
This YouTube has an excellent and clear analysis of the legal events AND worth waiting to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-N6h4_ey6c


The New York case against Trump is civil and not criminal. It will take many years for that to resolve. But it has a much greater chance of success than the parallel criminal case, because the burden of proof is lower. It's based on a preponderance of the evidence rather than reasonable doubt.

As far as the special master goes, I think Judge Dearie will fairly return Trump's property that was seized, but also fairly return the government documents to the Archives. The classified documents are already lost to Trump, they won't be reviewed at all, and are going back to the Archives after the investigation concludes.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:55 pm

It appears none of the 5 government approved vendors for a document review vendor is willing to to work with Trump's legal team, with all of them refusing to work with Trump's team. Instead, the government is stepping in to select a vendor, and will bill Trump's team accordingly:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .121.0.pdf

Plaintiff informed us this morning that none of the five document-review vendors proposed by the government before last Tuesday’s preliminary conference were willing to be engaged by Plaintiff. To avoid further delay in the vendor’s scanning and processing of the Seized Materials (defined to exclude “documents bearing classification markings”), the government issued a request for a task order this afternoon with a deadline of tomorrow (Wednesday, September 28, 2022) at noon. Based on its prior experience and discussions today with the vendors, the government is highly confident at least one vendor will respond and that it will be able to “agree upon and contract with a document review vendor that will host the Seized Materials in electronic form.” ECF 112, at 3. Based on applicable procurement regulations, the government is not able to select and engage a vendor before tomorrow (Wednesday, September 28, 2022). Consistent with the Appointment Order (ECF 91 ¶ 14), the government expects Plaintiff to pay the vendor’s invoices promptly when rendered.


Ouch.
 
wingman
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:55 pm

And I think Krise was paid by cult donations to Trump's PAC. If he's already been marginalized you have to wonder about the cult's understanding of ROI. They paid $3M for what you could almost define as legal bankruptcy. Trump's MO from his real estate days is alive and well. He just substituted cult drones for bankers. As much as I detest the man he will possibly go down as the greatest peddler of magic elixirs we've ever seen.
 
hh65man
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:08 pm

@ Wingman. “As much as I detest the man he will possibly go down as the greatest peddler of magic elixirs we've ever seen.”
So true, hilarious and sad at the same time.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:53 am

wingman wrote:
And I think Krise was paid by cult donations to Trump's PAC. If he's already been marginalized you have to wonder about the cult's understanding of ROI. They paid $3M for what you could almost define as legal bankruptcy. Trump's MO from his real estate days is alive and well. He just substituted cult drones for bankers. As much as I detest the man he will possibly go down as the greatest peddler of magic elixirs we've ever seen.


He is still able to convince enough Americans his truth is the only truth that shall be followed and taught. And they still give money to him because they believe hard enough.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:18 am

Trump has filed a response to the DoJ request for a brief extension, due to the DoJ hiring a vendor to scan the seized documents.

He asserts that the 11,000 documents consist of 200,000 pages, and no vendor would commit to scanning that quantity under the schedule provided by the master. Therefore he requests that the original schedule proposed by plaintiff be adopted.

Meanwhile DoJ is engaging with vendors to do the work under the master's schedule (with a brief delay).

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .123.0.pdf

Trump also chastised the DoJ for revealing their objections to the master's plan, which were filed under seal. So has now unsealed the objections.

As noted by the DoJ, the objections are to the deviations Judge Dearie has made to the appointment order by Judge Cannon. Trump asserts that Judge Dearie should abide by the order as written. Thus he should:

1. Require DoJ, not plaintiff, to establish that records belong to the government (burden of proof).

2. Retain the combined executive and attorney-client privilege claim, as a single privilege, rather than separating them as individual claims.

3. Make recommendations to Judge Cannon for the adjudication of the return of property claims under Rule 41(g), rather the Judge Dearie being briefed and hearing those claims himself.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 23.1_1.pdf
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:34 pm

Judge Cannon has ruled on Trump's objections to the Special Master's plan, overturning some of Judge Dearie's requirements, and upholding others:

1. Plaintiff does not have to make a final determination as to the veracity of the seized documents inventory, until the end of the process.

2. Plaintiff does not have to provide rolling logs of reviewed materials, just one master log at the end.

3. Plaintiff does still have to distinguish between claims of executive and attorney-client privilege.

4. Plaintiff does still have to assume the burden of proof that documents belong to Trump.

5. The original November 30 deadline is restored, and further extended until December 16, due to the volume of materials.

6. The Special Master will be allowed to be briefed and hear evidence for the return of seized property claims (Rule 41g), but only to be included in the recommendations to Judge Cannon for final resolution.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .125.0.pdf
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:32 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Judge Cannon has ruled on Trump's objections to the Special Master's plan, overturning some of Judge Dearie's requirements, and upholding others:

1. Plaintiff does not have to make a final determination as to the veracity of the seized documents inventory, until the end of the process.

2. Plaintiff does not have to provide rolling logs of reviewed materials, just one master log at the end.

3. Plaintiff does still have to distinguish between claims of executive and attorney-client privilege.

4. Plaintiff does still have to assume the burden of proof that documents belong to Trump.

5. The original November 30 deadline is restored, and further extended until December 16, due to the volume of materials.

6. The Special Master will be allowed to be briefed and hear evidence for the return of seized property claims (Rule 41g), but only to be included in the recommendations to Judge Cannon for final resolution.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .125.0.pdf


What a bloody clown show. Why do we have to just sit and accept this nonsense from an obviously compromised judicial entity? It’s as if nothing the 11th circuit indicated registered with her whatsoever.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:06 am

Aaron747 wrote:

What a bloody clown show. Why do we have to just sit and accept this nonsense from an obviously compromised judicial entity? It’s as if nothing the 11th circuit indicated registered with her whatsoever.


It's clear that Trump will continue to appeal to Judge Cannon, since she is sympathetic to his cause. But there are limits to what she can do, without the DoJ or Special Master involving the appellate court.

She can give him more time and remove some administrative constraints. She obviously bought the 200,000 pages argument, even though subsequent reporting has since debunked that claim.

However she didn't question the Master's insistence on separating the forms of privilege, which prevents Trump from cloaking the assertion of executive privilege under other forms. That is key.

And she accepted the Master's insistence that Trump bears the burden of proof for ownership of the documents. That's another key point.

So this will drag on longer, but the results should be the same. The real conflict will occur at the end, when Trump asserts Rule 41(g), and Judge Cannon has to decide. It's clear that Judge Dearie will recommend fairly, so Judge Cannon would have to override him, to favor Trump again. If that happens, it will for sure end up back in the appellate court, where Trump is likely to lose.
 
bennett123
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:02 am

Stalling in the hope that the mid term elections result in a change in the rules.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:49 pm

In response to Judge Cannon's extension of the document review period to December 16th, the DoJ has filed a motion with the Court of Appeals, for expedited appeal and decision on the order for the special master. The motion asks that the appeal be concluded in mid-November.

In the motion, they anticipate that Trump will continue to request extensions and delays, possibly going well into 2023. And that this interferes substantially with their investigation of the reviewed documents. Especially since Judge Cannon has ruled that Trump does not need to turn over disputed documents until the end, after she decides on his property claims.

Notably Judge Dearie, acting as special master, had wanted to conclude the document review before the end of October, until Judge Cannon ordered the extension.

Kise has informed the DoJ that Trump intends to file an objection to the expedited appeal.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183 ... be49d40000
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:38 pm

Trump has filed his objections to the DoJ motion for the expedited appeal:

Trump asserts that his attorneys are swamped dealing with the need to review the 11,000 documents and 200,000 pages. Thus he has requested that hearings on the appeal be delayed to January 2023 at minimum.

He also claims that the difficulty has been exacerbated by the DoJ in filing numerous motions, to which he must respond. And that doing so has limited the time available to prepare his case, which is unfair to him as the government has had much more time to prepare the case against him.

Lastly he complained again about the conduct of the FBI and DoJ:

“President Trump disagrees with and objects to the government’s distorted and argumentative presentation of facts concerning the unprecedented raid of his home, its conduct in these proceedings, and the procedural history of the case."


https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2022 ... cial-mast/
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:07 pm

An expedited appeal is in the best interests of the US and its citizens. End of argument.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:44 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Trump has filed his objections to the DoJ motion for the expedited appeal:

Trump asserts that his attorneys are swamped dealing with the need to review the 11,000 documents and 200,000 pages. Thus he has requested that hearings on the appeal be delayed to January 2023 at minimum.

He also claims that the difficulty has been exacerbated by the DoJ in filing numerous motions, to which he must respond. And that doing so has limited the time available to prepare his case, which is unfair to him as the government has had much more time to prepare the case against him.

Lastly he complained again about the conduct of the FBI and DoJ:

“President Trump disagrees with and objects to the government’s distorted and argumentative presentation of facts concerning the unprecedented raid of his home, its conduct in these proceedings, and the procedural history of the case."


https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2022 ... cial-mast/

Trump and his officials, weren't Swamped when they walked out of the White House with the documents and carelessly mixed in Trump's personal documents were they?

I think their needs not be any delay for ignorance and malicious activity. Judge Cannon is not helping any peice of the Justice System by allowign these childish "dog ate my homework" arguments.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:16 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump and his officials, weren't Swamped when they walked out of the White House with the documents and carelessly mixed in Trump's personal documents were they?

I think their needs not be any delay for ignorance and malicious activity. Judge Cannon is not helping any piece of the Justice System by allowing these childish "dog ate my homework" arguments.


It's becoming somewhat farcical now. For those that are paying attention:

1. Trump had initially claimed that he had given all the documents back, so there was no need for a search warrant. Now, there are hundreds of thousands of pages, that will take several months to review.

2. The DoJ in their expedite motion, claimed that Trump would try to delay, in order to evade the appeal and the jurisdiction of the court. And now he has done exactly that.

3. Trump is the plaintiff here, he is suing the government for the return of his alleged property, allegedly seized illegally. So he is actively delaying the return of the property he seeks.

4. Kise has been reported to be sidelined in this case, and this response may be an indicator of why. I have no doubt he would have advised Trump against this course of action. But Trump, as always, will favor those who agree with him, over those who advise him truthfully. He isn't going to change, or be moderated

5. Christina Bobb has hired her own criminal counsel, and has informed Trump she intends to cooperate with the DoJ, in their investigation of the false affidavit regarding return of classified documents. She says she was brought in as an independent custodian of records, and accepted the evidence she was given that a thorough search had been conducted.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:51 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump and his officials, weren't Swamped when they walked out of the White House with the documents and carelessly mixed in Trump's personal documents were they?

I think their needs not be any delay for ignorance and malicious activity. Judge Cannon is not helping any piece of the Justice System by allowing these childish "dog ate my homework" arguments.


It's becoming somewhat farcical now. For those that are paying attention:

1. Trump had initially claimed that he had given all the documents back, so there was no need for a search warrant. Now, there are hundreds of thousands of pages, that will take several months to review.

2. The DoJ in their expedite motion, claimed that Trump would try to delay, in order to evade the appeal and the jurisdiction of the court. And now he has done exactly that.

3. Trump is the plaintiff here, he is suing the government for the return of his alleged property, allegedly seized illegally. So he is actively delaying the return of the property he seeks.

4. Kise has been reported to be sidelined in this case, and this response may be an indicator of why. I have no doubt he would have advised Trump against this course of action. But Trump, as always, will favor those who agree with him, over those who advise him truthfully. He isn't going to change, or be moderated

5. Christina Bobb has hired her own criminal counsel, and has informed Trump she intends to cooperate with the DoJ, in their investigation of the false affidavit regarding return of classified documents. She says she was brought in as an independent custodian of records, and accepted the evidence she was given that a thorough search had been conducted.


I have to wonder at some point if Cannon gets disbarred on all of this.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:52 pm

Turns out that the same attorneys who are swamped with the document review, somehow have time to sue CNN for defamation on behalf of Trump.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 39.1.0.pdf
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:31 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Turns out that the same attorneys who are swamped with the document review, somehow have time to sue CNN for defamation on behalf of Trump.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 39.1.0.pdf


Attorneys can be punished for knowingly filing frivolous suits. The CNN case is obviously so. There was tenuous justification for the suit against DOJ because of the mix of documents, but it’s still ridiculous on the whole because THERE WOULD BE NO SEIZURE if he had returned everything and followed NAR policy properly.
 
325i
Posts: 135
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:33 am

Pardon my ignorance but how on earth can he,DJT, be referred to as the plaintiff ...President Donald j trump.
I just wish he would exit our lives in a reproductive manner!
I look forward to someone enlightening me with reference to my opening sentence.cheers.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:19 am

Aaron747 wrote:

Attorneys can be punished for knowingly filing frivolous suits. The CNN case is obviously so. There was tenuous justification for the suit against DOJ because of the mix of documents, but it’s still ridiculous on the whole because THERE WOULD BE NO SEIZURE if he had returned everything and followed NAR policy properly.


This suit will likely go the way of the similar suit he filed in April, against Hillary Clinton et al. That suit also included news organizations. The judge in that case said in his dismissal that it was a Trump manifesto, but lacked any legal merit or basis.

As CNN pointed out in their response, Trump offered no evidence to refute the statements they made in their broadcasts. While they have copious evidence of his actual statements and deeds.

Although unrelated, this is also amusing in light of what Fox produces every night in his favor. That material has repeatedly been exposed as false.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:58 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Attorneys can be punished for knowingly filing frivolous suits. The CNN case is obviously so. There was tenuous justification for the suit against DOJ because of the mix of documents, but it’s still ridiculous on the whole because THERE WOULD BE NO SEIZURE if he had returned everything and followed NAR policy properly.


This suit will likely go the way of the similar suit he filed in April, against Hillary Clinton et al. That suit also included news organizations. The judge in that case said in his dismissal that it was a Trump manifesto, but lacked any legal merit or basis.

As CNN pointed out in their response, Trump offered no evidence to refute the statements they made in their broadcasts. While they have copious evidence of his actual statements and deeds.

Although unrelated, this is also amusing in light of what Fox produces every night in his favor. That material has repeatedly been exposed as false.

The CNN lawsuit is more likely than not a mechanism to keep his name in the paper for a reason other than his own wrong doing — at least until he can announce his 2024 run.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:46 am

325i wrote:
Pardon my ignorance but how on earth can he,DJT, be referred to as the plaintiff ...President Donald j trump.
I just wish he would exit our lives in a reproductive manner!
I look forward to someone enlightening me with reference to my opening sentence.cheers.



DJT is challenging the Government Siezure of Government Documents. He is the plantiff for that case.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:56 pm

Here is a good summary of the events that led to the boxes being taken to Mar-a-Lago. It sounds like it was mostly disorganization and lack of any document accounting control.

But then once at Mar-a-Lago, Trump became resistant to returning them, under the advice of Tom Fitton and Judicial Watch. Fitton incorrectly believed that President Clinton had kept Presidential records from the Archive, at Clinton's personal discretion, and told Trump he had the same right to do so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... s-meadows/
 
325i
Posts: 135
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:28 am

Hi Casinterest,thanks for your response.
My question as DJT is no longer President how can the papers served refer to him as President ?
Is it a courtesy for former leaders or is this a misguided assumption by his legal rep?
Cheers.
 
luckyone
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:43 am

325i wrote:
Hi Casinterest,thanks for your response.
My question as DJT is no longer President how can the papers served refer to him as President ?
Is it a courtesy for former leaders or is this a misguided assumption by his legal rep?
Cheers.

It is a courtesy extended to Presidents even after they’ve left office.
 
hh65man
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:52 am

Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:11 am

I wonder if he played Dodge Ball as a kid growing up? If he didn’t he should have, he would’ve been king of the wall. Still having his rallies, albeit a bit on the shrinking size, still talking smack. When will it end?
 
hh65man
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:52 am

Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:03 am

https://youtu.be/3dvUczldoL0
And you have this from Beau, the pressure is being felt it seems. I didn’t realise the due process of litigation up through the courts could be skipped with a direct request from the Supreme Court.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:54 am

Trump has now filed an emergency appeal to the Supreme Court. He requests that the 11th District Appellate Court's stay of Judge Cannon's injunction on the seized classified records, be partially vacated.

He no longer disputes DoJ access to the classified records, but requests the Special Master and his counsel, also be given access. And asserts that the master and Judge Cannon have jurisdiction to decide whether they are actually classified, privileged, or personal records, in conjunction with his counsel.

His arguments are procedural, and he also reasserts arguments previously rejected by the appellate court.

1. The appellate court did not have jurisdiction to issue a stay, because the Special Master Order was not appealable. While the court argued that the inclusion of the injunction made the order appealable, Trump argues the opposite, that the injunction is not appealable because it's part of the order.

2. As President, he had absolute authority to declassify documents at Mar-a-Lago, without bureaucratic burden. Notably he again is careful not to assert that they were declassified.

3. As President, he has sole discretion to determine which of his records, are personal or privileged or Presidential. Again he has not asserted that he made that distinction.

4. As President, it's impossible for him to commit a crime by possession of any document, and that this is merely a dispute between himself and the National Archives.

5. Trump was still President at the time the records were transported to Mar-a-Lago, granting him all of the authorities above when the documents left the White House.

6. Neither the Archives nor the DoJ has lawful authority to have seized those documents.

Justice Thomas, who is the designated recipient for appeals from the Florida region, has given the DoJ a week to file their arguments, before deciding whether the Court will hear the case.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... uments.pdf

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