Mar-A-Lago raided by FBI.

Avatar2go · Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:33 am

alberchico wrote:

If Trump lied or misled his legal team into thinking that all sensitive documents were handed over, it would be very difficult to charge his attorneys with a crime. The govt would have to prove that there was a conspiracy between Trump and his legal team to retain certain classified documents and lie about it, and I doubt any lawyer would be that stupid.

When Cristina Bobb appeared on Fox on Thursday to say that no classified documents were at Mara Lago, she was very careful to say that she had not discussed the matter with Trump. Yet her signature is on the inventory showing that classified documents were seized.

So what will happen now, is that they will hide behind privilege, so as not to clarify who knew what and when. That makes it very difficult to prove intent. The DoJ may try to pierce privilege by saying that it shields commission of a crime. But then the response will be that the information they were given (Trump declassified the documents) did not indicate it was a crime, and again the burden of proof will be on the prosecution.

aristoenigma · Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:08 am

The difference between strict and absolute liability is whether the defence of a “mistake of fact” is available: in a crime of absolute liability, a mistake of fact is not a defence.

Avatar2go · Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:51 am

Avatar2go wrote:

So what will happen now, is that they will hide behind privilege, so as not to clarify who knew what and when. That makes it very difficult to prove intent. The DoJ may try to pierce privilege by saying that it shields commission of a crime. But then the response will be that the information they were given (Trump declassified the documents) did not indicate it was a crime, and again the burden of proof will be on the prosecution.

And here it is:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-se ... ew-sources

Avatar2go · Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:55 am

aristoenigma wrote:
The difference between strict and absolute liability is whether the defence of a “mistake of fact” is available: in a crime of absolute liability, a mistake of fact is not a defence.

This principle applies in civil tort law, but won't be a factor in a criminal case. They will need to prove intent, and that's where the difficulty will be.

VolvoBus · Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:16 am

Were the documents de-classified before or after they were planted by the FBI ?

cskok8 · Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:04 am

VolvoBus wrote:
Were the documents de-classified before or after they were planted by the FBI ?

Winner

ThePointblank · Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:14 am

Avatar2go wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
The difference between strict and absolute liability is whether the defence of a “mistake of fact” is available: in a crime of absolute liability, a mistake of fact is not a defence.

This principle applies in civil tort law, but won't be a factor in a criminal case. They will need to prove intent, and that's where the difficulty will be.

The three laws cited in the warrant do not require intent.

18 USC 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information.:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
This law states it is illegal to remove documents related to national security from their proper place if it could risk the security of the country, no matter the classification level of the information.

18 USC 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519
This law makes it illegal to destroy or hide documents to try to obstruct a federal investigation.

18 USC 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071
This law makes it illegal to willfully possess or destroy any government document.

ltbewr · Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:27 am

One of the unfortunate and dangerous things to come out of the service of the search warrant at MAL has been actual and growing threats of violence against the FBI, its agents and others by hard core Trump supporters. They claim the search and seizure of the documents at MAL is unconstitutional, totally political, mainly to destroy Trump from running for President in 2024.https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/12/politics ... index.html

Avatar2go · Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:56 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
The difference between strict and absolute liability is whether the defence of a “mistake of fact” is available: in a crime of absolute liability, a mistake of fact is not a defence.

This principle applies in civil tort law, but won't be a factor in a criminal case. They will need to prove intent, and that's where the difficulty will be.

The three laws cited in the warrant do not require intent.

18 USC 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information.:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
This law states it is illegal to remove documents related to national security from their proper place if it could risk the security of the country, no matter the classification level of the information.

18 USC 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519
This law makes it illegal to destroy or hide documents to try to obstruct a federal investigation.

18 USC 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071
This law makes it illegal to willfully possess or destroy any government document.

Yes, but by long standing precedent in the US, intent is required for criminal prosecution. Many legal experts have alluded to this in the last week. It would have to be part of any prosecution, and is difficult to prove, which creates a high bar for these cases.

In 2016, Comey said that no reasonable prosecutor would charge Hillary, for the same reason. She was careless but she had no intent to break the law. Trump's case is much stronger, but there is still a need to show intent.

Where he may be vulnerable, is on the obstruction charge, since he didn't turn over all the documents when requested, but said he did. That would indicate intent. But depends on what they seized in the raid.

pune · Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:20 pm

cskok8 wrote:
VolvoBus wrote:
Were the documents de-classified before or after they were planted by the FBI ?

Winner

He is of course a winner. He just needs to share (I'm guessing a hollywood potboiler happening) that shows how the FBI alongwith Democrats did a high-stakes job where they dumped stuff inside Trump towers. And of course, Trump didn't have any security or maybe they were also corrupt or whatever the gentleman perceives (all are against Trump, even his own security). So somehow, they did all that, avoided detection and came out and then few days later did this whole show. It would be remarkable to see how the spin doctors try to spin it. The warrant does have impressive laws that they cite.

And the most interesting question has been asked just above, what did they find. If they find any nuclear-related material then this would go nuclear for sure. So for much 'I'm the genius' tag by a certain past-president.

GDB · Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:10 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

This principle applies in civil tort law, but won't be a factor in a criminal case. They will need to prove intent, and that's where the difficulty will be.

The three laws cited in the warrant do not require intent.

18 USC 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information.:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
This law states it is illegal to remove documents related to national security from their proper place if it could risk the security of the country, no matter the classification level of the information.

18 USC 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519
This law makes it illegal to destroy or hide documents to try to obstruct a federal investigation.

18 USC 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071
This law makes it illegal to willfully possess or destroy any government document.

Yes, but by long standing precedent in the US, intent is required for criminal prosecution. Many legal experts have alluded to this in the last week. It would have to be part of any prosecution, and is difficult to prove, which creates a high bar for these cases.

In 2016, Comey said that no reasonable prosecutor would charge Hillary, for the same reason. She was careless but she had no intent to break the law. Trump's case is much stronger, but there is still a need to show intent.

Where he may be vulnerable, is on the obstruction charge, since he didn't turn over all the documents when requested, but said he did. That would indicate intent. But depends on what they seized in the raid.

I suspect the refusal to hand them over after being asked, even after a subpoena (ignoring the legal aspects of refusing that), will rather prove intent to share these extremely sensitive documents, which had no possible reason to be in Trumps mini Saddam Palace.

casinterest · Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:29 pm

You have to give it to the GOP. They have come up with all sorts of theories to avoid facing the facts in this case. Isn't it amazing how the theories have evolved?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/13/politics ... index.html

In response to the FBI search of former President Donald Trump's home in Florida on Monday, Trump and his allies in Congress and right-wing media have returned to his preferred strategy for communicating in a crisis: say a whole bunch of nonsense in rapid succession.

VolvoBus · Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:30 pm

cskok8 wrote:
VolvoBus wrote:
Were the documents de-classified before or after they were planted by the FBI ?

Winner

Full disclosure - I read this in an article, but don't know where to give attribution.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/politics ... 7a60ce0212

What will Trump's response be to Putin stirring things ? Biden is a wimp for not nuking Russia ?

I went to stock up on popcorn, but everywhere had sold out.

petertenthije · Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
You have to give it to the GOP. They have come up with all sorts of theories to avoid facing the facts in this case. Isn't it amazing how the theories have evolved?

Always knew intelligent design was overrated.
Darwin’s theory of evolution for the win!

PhilBy · Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:09 pm

I though that Donald wrote an executive order that anything on his personal property was automaticaly declassified.

Newark727 · Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:14 pm

PhilBy wrote:
I though that Donald wrote an executive order that anything on his personal property was automaticaly declassified.

His eyeballs emit a powerful Declassification Beam that renders public anything that they gaze upon.

ReverseFlow · Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:33 pm

Newark727 wrote:
PhilBy wrote:
I though that Donald wrote an executive order that anything on his personal property was automaticaly declassified.

His eyeballs emit a powerful Declassification Beam that renders public anything that they gaze upon.

But as he's known not to read much, it must all still be classified!

It seems like the first few Republicans are speaking out against all the anti-FBI rhetoric from the Trump cult.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... s-rhetoric

Avatar2go · Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:07 pm

Moderate Republicans finally realizing they have a spine, and a voice box. That would be a welcome relief.

T4thH · Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:54 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Moderate Republicans finally realizing they have a spine, and a voice box. That would be a welcome relief.

Yes. it is good, that they show their real face, so these can be fast replaced by the rght ones It is a win, win on the way to the far right autocracy...oh sorry, of course pure democracy. with the great Fuehrer...

Aaron747 · Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:58 pm

PhilBy wrote:
I though that Donald wrote an executive order that anything on his personal property was automaticaly declassified.

That's great, but not how the system works. There is a process for each department's documents after POTUS marks declassified, and those designations can be undone by the subsequent WH. Beyond that, the Atomic Energy Act does not permit POTUS universal declassification powers over nuclear materials - all must be reviewed by Department of Energy before further document action.

https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/doe/rdfrdhtm.html#I6

aristoenigma · Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:49 am

https://www.newsweek.com/jared-kushner- ... mp-1733457

Not reliable but wow.

Who knows what other evidence exists that supports espionage allegations. Fundamentally 45 was an oddity from day one. Nobody expected him to win. He proved that TV image and hard core negotiation could effectuate some results. But with all the warts exposed now it will be a tall order for the essentiai intelligence of the American electorate to be fooled again four years later. The GOP senators and Representaives that are Sparky the Firedogging Trump over this sinful revelation are just proving Darwin right. Watch for alternatives to Trump for 2024 to start emerging faster than expected.

alfa164 · Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:30 am

pune wrote:
He just needs to share (I'm guessing a hollywood potboiler happening) that shows how the FBI alongwith Democrats did a high-stakes job where they dumped stuff inside Trump towers. And of course, Trump didn't have any security or maybe they were also corrupt or whatever the gentleman perceives (all are against Trump, even his own security).

The FBI didn't have to dump it in Trump Towers; my sources tell me they hid the documents inside pizza boxes from Comet Pong Pizza - that notorious bastion of debauchery and irresistible pepperoni pies - and by having free pizza delivered to a totally and undeniably innocent ex-President (who, based on his conspicuous girth, has never turned-down free food), they swooped in to "find" the aforementioned classified documents.

Shame on everyone involved in this nefarious plot! And QAnon - if you are listening - feel free to spread this message...

Avatar2go · Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:38 am

Some Republicans are now calling for the release of the affidavit for the Mar-a-Lago search warrant. Which follows their earlier call for the release of the warrant and inventory itself.

This is consistent with the pattern of not accepting information that exists, and insisting on some grander conspiracy. After this will come calls for investigation of the judge, the DoJ, and FBI.

The simple truth is that the warrant was issued on suspicion of further documents being withheld at Mar-a-Lago, some of them potentially classified, and the search uncovered both. So the only remaining task is to establish whether that rises to the level of a crime. That is the focus of the DoJ now.

Nothing about the affidavit, the judge, the DoJ, or the FBI changes those basic facts. The documents are now back in the custody of the government, where they legally belong. So yet another case of misdirection, without evidence.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/republica ... 022-08-14/

Vintage · Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:30 am

One would think that the farther into extremism the Trump faction goes, the smaller their base would become. I can't see this craziness helping to bring independents into the fold. More than a few of them must realize that Trumpworld is calling for the end of the US experiment in democratic government.

The time is ripe for a voice from the mainstream to stand up in anger against this treason. Who will it be?

seb146 · Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:05 am

Vintage wrote:
One would think that the farther into extremism the Trump faction goes, the smaller their base would become. I can't see this craziness helping to bring independents into the fold. More than a few of them must realize that Trumpworld is calling for the end of the US experiment in democratic government.

The time is ripe for a voice from the mainstream to stand up in anger against this treason. Who will it be?

It was Liz Cheney but she is a RINO liberal. They want one voice to speak to all of them. Think Borg Queen from the Star Trek series. As long as they all think and do and say the exact same thing, they are happy.

Vintage · Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:19 am

seb146 wrote:
It was Liz Cheney but she is a RINO liberal.

Liz Cheney is no liberal. There's a grand total of one issue that a liberal could agree with her on.
I agree that it might be counterproductive for Biden to lead the charge while he's in office, but it seems like the time is right for someone to step forward.

scbriml · Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:46 am

aristoenigma wrote:
But with all the warts exposed now it will be a tall order for the essentiai intelligence of the American electorate to be fooled again four years later.

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, unless he's barred from running again, Trump will be a strong candidate in 2024, his ego will dictate it.

As for support, sadly all you have to do is spend a little time trawling the depths that are the comment sections on sites like TGP, OAN, etc. Then, there's always Truth Social... :banghead:

pune · Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:19 am

alfa164 wrote:
pune wrote:
He just needs to share (I'm guessing a hollywood potboiler happening) that shows how the FBI alongwith Democrats did a high-stakes job where they dumped stuff inside Trump towers. And of course, Trump didn't have any security or maybe they were also corrupt or whatever the gentleman perceives (all are against Trump, even his own security).

The FBI didn't have to dump it in Trump Towers; my sources tell me they hid the documents inside pizza boxes from Comet Pong Pizza - that notorious bastion of debauchery and irresistible pepperoni pies - and by having free pizza delivered to a totally and undeniably innocent ex-President (who, based on his conspicuous girth, has never turned-down free food), they swooped in to "find" the aforementioned classified documents.

Shame on everyone involved in this nefarious plot! And QAnon - if you are listening - feel free to spread this message...

ROFL, nice one

You should be checking your sources too, who knows even they may be having pepperoni pies from Comet Pong Pizza. interestingly the only difference between pies and 'spies' is the letter s

victrola · Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:49 pm

So Rand Paul wants to repeal the Espionage Act to save Trump:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rand-pau ... 35e0b4312f

What's next? Repealing the homicide laws when Trump murders someone on 5th Avenue?

Avatar2go · Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:10 pm

victrola wrote:
So Rand Paul wants to repeal the Espionage Act to save Trump:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rand-pau ... 35e0b4312f

What's next? Repealing the homicide laws when Trump murders someone on 5th Avenue?

Republicans are really unbelievable in the lengths they are willing to go in defense of Trump. Mike Turner is saying it's impossible to judge the validity of the search without seeing the seized documents. Also that just because they were marked classified, doesn't mean they were actually classified. Right.

But legislators are not the ones who decide those issues, the judiciary does, and already has.

In the meantime, the investigators are saying privately they may have to track in detail who saw, or had access to the classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, to know if they were compromised.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-sea ... d=88381428

casinterest · Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:11 pm

victrola wrote:
So Rand Paul wants to repeal the Espionage Act to save Trump:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rand-pau ... 35e0b4312f

What's next? Repealing the homicide laws when Trump murders someone on 5th Avenue?

How did you guess? The Golden Calf must keep producing the Grift of money that the GOP demands.

scbriml · Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:45 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Also that just because they were marked classified, doesn't mean they were actually classified. Right.

From everything I've read on this subject, and the widely claimed (but unproven) "Trump declassified them all." it's my understanding that once a document is declassified, it requires the "Secret" or "Top Secret" stamps to be removed.

I've also yet to see any explanation as to why on Earth Trump had boxes and boxes of these documents at his property.

Tugger · Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:54 pm

victrola wrote:
So Rand Paul wants to repeal the Espionage Act to save Trump:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rand-pau ... 35e0b4312f

What's next? Repealing the homicide laws when Trump murders someone on 5th Avenue?

Well, the law is actually not wholly all that great:

Heidi Kitrosser, a law professor at Northwestern University, told NPR the danger with the act is that it's too vague and broad.

The law does not explicitly define what "national defense" is or what information could threaten it, she added. Although the U.S. has since created a classification system, there is still a lot of room for interpretation.

More concerning to Kitrosser, the law does not explicitly care about public interest or whether the leaker in question had good motives. That's why a broad spectrum of people can be under threat.

"If the act had a public interest defense, that would give us some kind of focal point around so that we could draw a distinction between somebody leaking information about abuse of a government program to the American media — versus someone storing highly classified secrets in a resort hotel," she said.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/15/11174576 ... act-repeal

Tugg

bluecrew · Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Also that just because they were marked classified, doesn't mean they were actually classified. Right.

From everything I've read on this subject, and the widely claimed (but unproven) "Trump declassified them all." it's my understanding that once a document is declassified, it requires the "Secret" or "Top Secret" stamps to be removed.

I've also yet to see any explanation as to why on Earth Trump had boxes and boxes of these documents at his property.

Historically, there's a process, most recently by EO the Biden WH released a lot of unredacted or less redacted papers about the Kennedy assassination.

What's being trafficked around the news by people inside Trump World is that the President declassified the papers verbally with Kash Patel, or that by nature of bringing the documents out of the White House, that made them automatically declassified. Or by possessing any classified documents, they are automatically declassified by the former president.

Semantics, because I can't see why Trump would need dirt on Macron and nuclear secrets in the basement of his golf course mansion, but YMMV. This is just like... a crime. If this had been a Director of the FBI or a staffer for the NSC, for example, the FBI would be walking them out after serving the search warrant with a black bag on their head. It's a hard one to spin.

casinterest · Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:19 pm

Tugger wrote:
victrola wrote:
So Rand Paul wants to repeal the Espionage Act to save Trump:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rand-pau ... 35e0b4312f

What's next? Repealing the homicide laws when Trump murders someone on 5th Avenue?

Well, the law is actually not wholly all that great:
Heidi Kitrosser, a law professor at Northwestern University, told NPR the danger with the act is that it's too vague and broad.

The law does not explicitly define what "national defense" is or what information could threaten it, she added. Although the U.S. has since created a classification system, there is still a lot of room for interpretation.

More concerning to Kitrosser, the law does not explicitly care about public interest or whether the leaker in question had good motives. That's why a broad spectrum of people can be under threat.

"If the act had a public interest defense, that would give us some kind of focal point around so that we could draw a distinction between somebody leaking information about abuse of a government program to the American media — versus someone storing highly classified secrets in a resort hotel," she said.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/15/11174576 ... act-repeal

Tugg

Government secrets are secrets for a reason, and arbitrarily spilling those secrets when you are granted access is punishable. True Government transparency would be nice, but as has been shown, people with an ax to grind and limited view of the full picture would jump to illogical conclusions for certain state secrets.

So yes there are punishments for even non malevolent leakers. People that have take certain documents home, have been fired before.

ER757 · Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:38 pm

Haven't seen many comments from the Trump supporters on this board. If any of them are reading, I'd like to ask if Trump is proven to have documents at Mar-A-Lago that he shouldn't, if he convicted in NY for the charges he's facing there, if GA convicts him of trying to tamper with the election results (he's on tape asking the SoS there to "find" 12,000 votes), will you stop supporting him? Or will you blindly follow and stand behind a known criminal? Just curious......

STT757 · Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:31 pm

Trump is now claiming the FBI took his passports, that can't be a good sign for him. LOL...

https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-passport/

casinterest · Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:53 pm

STT757 wrote:
Trump is now claiming the FBI took his passports, that can't be a good sign for him. LOL...

https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-passport/

They must see him as a flight risk? Not sure why they took the passports otherwise.

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. I wonder if they are still connecting dots between Stone, Manafort and others.

ThePointblank · Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:28 pm

casinterest wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Trump is now claiming the FBI took his passports, that can't be a good sign for him. LOL...

https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-passport/

They must see him as a flight risk? Not sure why they took the passports otherwise.

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. I wonder if they are still connecting dots between Stone, Manafort and others.

Or, they grabbed his government, diplomatic passports, since they were supposed to be returned.

ReverseFlow · Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:41 pm

And now by order (or by copy of the Truth) he's wanting it all back.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... uth-social

SL1200MK2 · Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:53 pm

ER757 wrote:
Haven't seen many comments from the Trump supporters on this board. If any of them are reading, I'd like to ask if Trump is proven to have documents at Mar-A-Lago that he shouldn't, if he convicted in NY for the charges he's facing there, if GA convicts him of trying to tamper with the election results (he's on tape asking the SoS there to "find" 12,000 votes), will you stop supporting him? Or will you blindly follow and stand behind a known criminal? Just curious......

Typically, they claim being middle-of-the-road or apolitical when things look bad for their guy.

bluecrew · Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:58 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
casinterest wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Trump is now claiming the FBI took his passports, that can't be a good sign for him. LOL...

https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-passport/

They must see him as a flight risk? Not sure why they took the passports otherwise.

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. I wonder if they are still connecting dots between Stone, Manafort and others.

Or, they grabbed his government, diplomatic passports, since they were supposed to be returned.

Yeah this. His "Truths" (yeah I definitely hate that) indicated the FBI seized 3 passports, 1 expired. So that would leave him with a diplomatic and personal passport. Potentially he had two passport books, but one being a diplomatic passport would certainly fit.

We probably won't get much more out of this story until they file charges (if they do). I am really concerned with the unhinged wacko that shot the nailgun at the FBI office... afraid we will be seeing a lot more of that. They're already radicalized by Trump, they just need pointing and arming if they don't have weapons already.

Avatar2go · Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:13 pm

bluecrew wrote:
I am really concerned with the unhinged wacko that shot the nailgun at the FBI office... afraid we will be seeing a lot more of that. They're already radicalized by Trump, they just need pointing and arming if they don't have weapons already.

Trump says that terrible things are going to happen in the US, then doubles down on the lies that are fomenting his followers to commit them. This man is delusional, he thinks his actions and statements have nothing to do with Jan 6, the attack on the FBI, or the impending danger.

He's basically a sociopath, putting his interests above all others. He should have been provided with mental health care a long time ago.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 45439.html

luckyone · Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:28 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
I am really concerned with the unhinged wacko that shot the nailgun at the FBI office... afraid we will be seeing a lot more of that. They're already radicalized by Trump, they just need pointing and arming if they don't have weapons already.

Trump says that terrible things are going to happen in the US, then doubles down on the lies that are fomenting his followers to commit them. This man is delusional, he thinks his actions and statements have nothing to do with Jan 6, the attack on the FBI, or the impending danger.

He's basically a sociopath, putting his interests above all others. He should have been provided with mental health care a long time ago.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 45439.html

There really isn’t much treatment for anti-social personality (what sociopath is now defined as), or narcissistic personality disorder for that matter. There’s a lot of overlap. The only significant therapeutic intervention is therapy which requires buy-in. You can imagine how often that happens…

Avatar2go · Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:46 pm

luckyone wrote:
There really isn’t much treatment for anti-social personality (what sociopath is now defined as), or narcissistic personality disorder for that matter. There’s a lot of overlap. The only significant therapeutic intervention is therapy which requires buy-in. You can imagine how often that happens…

I participated in a self-help psychology forum where the anti-social disorder section had to be shut down, the interactions were just too aggressive. Somewhat like how Trump interacts with the world. So I can well imagine your point would be valid.

BN747 · Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:13 am

Avatar2go wrote:
luckyone wrote:
There really isn’t much treatment for anti-social personality (what sociopath is now defined as), or narcissistic personality disorder for that matter. There’s a lot of overlap. The only significant therapeutic intervention is therapy which requires buy-in. You can imagine how often that happens…

I participated in a self-help psychology forum where the anti-social disorder section had to be shut down, the interactions were just too aggressive. Somewhat like how Trump interacts with the world. So I can well imagine your point would be valid.

Years before you joined..there was a parody site called Airwhiners.net...where members could be come as unhinged as they wanted - and they did!

They didn't hold back one iota.
Racism off the chain, sexism extreme, homophobia ran rampant...no moderators.

It was a very interesting social experiment for observers of human behavior at it's abject worst!
I have no doubt in my mind, that a real community such as this would playout exactly as that board did.
I'm guessing the closest thing off the op of my head would be virtually any small Arkansas, Mississippi town
Where weekly town drunks get out of hand and the local sheriff or LE are good ol' boys sticking to their roots.
The AirWhiners stars, ex A.net members probably attended every Trump rally bank accounts would allow.

But after hearing too many rally goers speak, they mirrored the attitudes displayed on AirWhiners.
Something is really foul within the mental workings of people who get off on marginalizing others, it's a
human thing. A dark side of our species many wish not to acknowledge (out professional circles).

BN747

ltbewr · Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:47 am

The list of seized documents by the FBI at MAL do not list Trump's passports. He was likely claiming they were 'seized' trying to play the political prosecution card again for support and $$$'s from his base supporters.

FGITD · Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:52 am

ltbewr wrote:
The list of seized documents by the FBI at MAL do not list Trump's passports. He was likely claiming they were 'seized' trying to play the political prosecution card again for support and $$$'s from his base supporters.

I’m wondering if the passports would need to be listed, since they technically always belong to the government in the first place

Aaron747 · Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:12 am

FGITD wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The list of seized documents by the FBI at MAL do not list Trump's passports. He was likely claiming they were 'seized' trying to play the political prosecution card again for support and $$$'s from his base supporters.

I’m wondering if the passports would need to be listed, since they technically always belong to the government in the first place

Correct, passports are USG, not personal property. In any case DOJ says they do not have them.

leader1 · Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:16 am

BN747 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
luckyone wrote:
There really isn’t much treatment for anti-social personality (what sociopath is now defined as), or narcissistic personality disorder for that matter. There’s a lot of overlap. The only significant therapeutic intervention is therapy which requires buy-in. You can imagine how often that happens…

I participated in a self-help psychology forum where the anti-social disorder section had to be shut down, the interactions were just too aggressive. Somewhat like how Trump interacts with the world. So I can well imagine your point would be valid.

Years before you joined..there was a parody site called Airwhiners.net...where members could be come as unhinged as they wanted - and they did!

They didn't hold back one iota.
Racism off the chain, sexism extreme, homophobia ran rampant...no moderators.

It was a very interesting social experiment for observers of human behavior at it's abject worst!
I have no doubt in my mind, that a real community such as this would playout exactly as that board did.
I'm guessing the closest thing off the op of my head would be virtually any small Arkansas, Mississippi town
Where weekly town drunks get out of hand and the local sheriff or LE are good ol' boys sticking to their roots.
The AirWhiners stars, ex A.net members probably attended every Trump rally bank accounts would allow.

But after hearing too many rally goers speak, they mirrored the attitudes displayed on AirWhiners.
Something is really foul within the mental workings of people who get off on marginalizing others, it's a
human thing. A dark side of our species many wish not to acknowledge (out professional circles).

BN747

I’ve met the guy who ran Airwhiners and we have mutual friends. He started it as a protest/joke over disagreements with Johan over the moderation. And I think Johan actually banned him from this site because of Airwhiners.

And I don’t think it was that bad. Mostly ranting against Johan and making fun of this site and some of the users. And quite honestly, this site’s moderation was terrible under Johan.

Also, the guy who ran Airwhiners wasn’t even American - he was from India. I doubt he would have attended a Trump rally.

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