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ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:59 pm

Tugger wrote:
Most hydrogen is produced from methane/natural gas. The big problem it has is in storage. It is either stored in a low energy density state as a gas or requires even greater energy and containment systems to be super-cooled to a liquid. There is also the problem of embrittlement of those systems as well. Hydrogen as vast infrastructure scale "thing" won't happen, it just is not efficient.

That doesn't mean fuel cells won't happen and be thing. Batteries aren't the be all and end all of energy storage. Quite frankly solid and liquid fuels are. Hydrogen peroxide or sodium borohydride and more like some new option that allows "room temperature" storage and transport at high density (higher than a gas) will be the real breakthrough for fuel cells.

To me hydrogen as a fuel is like the SLS, it provides for the employment of smart people and creates jobs but there are much better ways of achieving the goal than what is being done.

Tugg

Just like a lot of electricity is and will be produced by coal. The way I see it, there's a purpose for both hydrogen and batteries, there's a market for both hydrogen and batteries and if both help reduce greenhouse gases then at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Going from where we are today to solely battery powered vehicles that are solely charged with nothing but green energy sources just simply isn't a reality. This shift is going to take decades and if there are ways to reduce greenhouse gases in the meantime, we should be supporting alternate methods as much as possible. As far as efficiency is concerned, mining raw materials for batteries and recycling them isn't exactly efficient either.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:06 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Just like a lot of electricity is and will be produced by coal. The way I see it, there's a purpose for both hydrogen and batteries, there's a market for both hydrogen and batteries and if both help reduce greenhouse gases then at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Going from where we are today to solely battery powered vehicles that are solely charged with nothing but green energy sources just simply isn't a reality. This shift is going to take decades and if there are ways to reduce greenhouse gases in the meantime, we should be supporting alternate methods as much as possible. As far as efficiency is concerned, mining raw materials for batteries and recycling them isn't exactly efficient either.

Agreed.

Quite frankly coal is a fine fuel source, as long as you address and sequester the pollutants it creates. We can do that, it is just that people don't want to because it adds costs which affect their profits or the cost to the consumer (how much does hydrogen really cost? Without the subsidies and grants etc.). I guess the question is: What are the best fuels to use that can produce the cleanest power that are most cost effective (including all aspects of their life cycle)?

Tugg
 
M564038
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:19 pm

Electricity made with nuclear, solar, wind, wave is pretty ubeatable while we wait for fusion. Hydro-power a close second.
Tugger wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Just like a lot of electricity is and will be produced by coal. The way I see it, there's a purpose for both hydrogen and batteries, there's a market for both hydrogen and batteries and if both help reduce greenhouse gases then at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Going from where we are today to solely battery powered vehicles that are solely charged with nothing but green energy sources just simply isn't a reality. This shift is going to take decades and if there are ways to reduce greenhouse gases in the meantime, we should be supporting alternate methods as much as possible. As far as efficiency is concerned, mining raw materials for batteries and recycling them isn't exactly efficient either.

Agreed.

Quite frankly coal is a fine fuel source, as long as you address and sequester the pollutants it creates. We can do that, it is just that people don't want to because it adds costs which affect their profits or the cost to the consumer (how much does hydrogen really cost? Without the subsidies and grants etc.). I guess the question is: What are the best fuels to use that can produce the cleanest power that are most cost effective (including all aspects of their life cycle)?

Tugg
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:25 pm

Tugger wrote:
Agreed.

Quite frankly coal is a fine fuel source, as long as you address and sequester the pollutants it creates. We can do that, it is just that people don't want to because it adds costs which affect their profits or the cost to the consumer (how much does hydrogen really cost? Without the subsidies and grants etc.). I guess the question is: What are the best fuels to use that can produce the cleanest power that are most cost effective (including all aspects of their life cycle)?

Tugg

In regards to grants/subsidies, EVs are no different - Governments are pouring in billions and billions of dollars every year in grants and subsidies to companies and consumers to get them to produce clean energy and buy EVs. Battery technology is incredibly expensive, the infrastructure required is extremely costly, the end product is extremely costly and the only way many can afford the end product is because of the rebates the Government (tax payers) pay out.

12 years ago, one of our transit agencies tried hydrogen and it didn't work because of the costs, so it was ditched after about 4-5 years. But now that hydrogen costs are coming down and infrastructure/production is being ramped up, they're looking into hydrogen again.

A lot of people argue that hydrogen is "dead", BMW tried it and it didn't work - but the same can be said for EVs, they've been around for decades and only until recently have they become a viable option for many people - things take time and we're going to see a big resurgence in hydrogen which will bring costs down.
 
cpd
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:56 pm

As it stands right now, the only hydrogen car available in my country isn’t really an option. It is slow, expensive and infrastructure to support it is extremely limited.

I can just get a nice XC40 Recharge or Polestar 2 at a very decent price. Nicer in every way than the Toyota. We get hardly any government subsidies for those, the previous government found it better to give people tax loopholes to get big diesel or petrol guzzling utes (pickups).

This country is seeing more large scale renewable energy production and the very large scale battery installations to store this power. These battery installations have proven their worth a number of times already. Private industry is behind these renewable energy and battery power installations.

They see government dithering- so they say right, we have the financial power to make this happen in months, not years. Politicians of certain parties hate that the free market can work in this way, so do their rusted on supporters and friends in the media. It takes away their anti-renewable energy talking points. ;)
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:20 am

DocLightning wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Toyota is going a very good job testing ICE engines with hydrogen fuel, performance is excellent , far better than BMW manged with there project.


Toyota's hydrogen vehicles use fuel cells. This is a much superior solution because it has all the advantages of an electric vehicle (full torque range, instant power, no combustion products) and the only exhaust is water. The fuel cell carefully controls the reaction to minimize side-products like NOx and in addition can pull >70% efficiency from the reaction, while ICE tops out at ~40%.


Toyotas production hydrogen vehicles use fuel cells, Toyotas experimental hydrogens vehicles use an ICE engine running on hydrogen fuel.

https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/wa ... lly-stages
 
pune
Topic Author
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:50 pm

Tugger wrote:
Most hydrogen is produced from methane/natural gas. The big problem it has is in storage. It is either stored in a low energy density state as a gas or requires even greater energy and containment systems to be super-cooled to a liquid. There is also the problem of embrittlement of those systems as well. Hydrogen as vast infrastructure scale "thing" won't happen, it just is not efficient.

That doesn't mean fuel cells won't happen and be thing. Batteries aren't the be all and end all of energy storage. Quite frankly solid and liquid fuels are. Hydrogen peroxide or sodium borohydride and more like some new option that allows "room temperature" storage and transport at high density (higher than a gas) will be the real breakthrough for fuel cells.

It's the catalyst that is the really important thing that matters.

To me hydrogen as a fuel is like the SLS, it provides for the employment of smart people and creates jobs but there are much better ways of achieving the goal than what is being done.

Tugg


If one is talking about energy storage then it becomes a whole different thing and there are and have been so many ways to deal with it. Some of the more interesting and yet at the same time mundane examples are salt (sodium) and sand. Both are available plentiful and cheap and there are quite a few companies running with that. Then there are companies like gravitricity.com and plenty of others who are also doing some interesting work. The problem for most people has been fund-raising as well as politics. For e.g. few of my friends just last couple of months went to Albania (a Muslim Country) and they saw how bicycles with motors as well as motor-push tricycles and whatnot that are invading the country. The local administration is also welcoming of that, they have banned all vehicles apart from these bicycles and tricycles in the main area and thereabouts.

Now of course, some people would call the plan elitist, some people something else. But it seems to work, the air is far better which also helps in the tourism thing. Now if a prior communist and Muslim country can change so much, then I'm hopeful other people can. There are also some standing scooters where you just have space to stand and use an electric motor to take from A to B.

So there are plenty of solutions. just need people with imagination and trying to figure out what is best in their circumstances. Here, in my country, corruption by oil lobby is so much, that they never approve stuff. For e.g. the only model to come new is BYD who is a behemoth in China and elsewhere.

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... t-8110176/
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:23 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Not charging at home doesn't mean fast charging elsewhere. I can charge at work. I can charge at supermarkets, on some streets, at hotels, etc. Often these aren't fast chargers.

Most of can't charge at work, using a charger whilst grocery shopping or going out for dinner would mean many will use fast chargers exclusively since most people don't spend hours at a grocery store.


That's because you're thinking about the old ways. There is no need to "fill up", just get some watts here and there along your day/week.

ACDC8 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
That's something that will never happen with hydrogen, incidentally.

Because filling up a hydrogen car is done within minutes.

What I don't understand is why some people are so hell bent over EVs - "its my way and only my way!" kind of attitude. If its really about climate change and saving the environment, then all options to reduce green house gases should be welcomed and stop arguing that mine is better than yours and if it works for me, then you have to make it work for you. Its like being in Church again "Our God is the only God and our God is the only way to eternal salvation - all other ways are false!"


I'm not hell bent, I'm convinced H2 cars will not be a thing, but I don't really need to argue about it : battery cars are here, you have a charging infrastructure, it needs improvement but it's significant already, and even without that infrastructure, every country has billions of plugs where you can get some charge back.

H2 has basically no infrastructure, and H2 cars don't exist aside from 2-3 extremely expensive ones.

In 2018 I visited Viet Nam and most people drive scooters there. Many of them were electric already, and you could see them plugged in shops, restaurants, in the streets with long cords...
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:02 am

Aesma wrote:
That's because you're thinking about the old ways. There is no need to "fill up", just get some watts here and there along your day/week.

This is what you're not understanding, not everyone can just "get some watts here and there". Many of us cannot charge at home or at work and relying on charging while we shop is simply unrealistic at this point in time. Not every grocery store has chargers, and the ones who do, their chargers are constantly occupied, then what? Just keep driving around from grocery store to grocery until you find an unoccupied charger? And EVs don't just pull up to a charger, zap up for 5 minutes and let the next person use it like at a fuel station, they sit there for hours and in some cases all day or all night. There's a mall not far from where I live, and they have about 30 chargers, you drive by there at night, they are all occupied and the cars sit there all night. With my Golf, I can stop off at the gas station after work and in 5 minutes, I've got a months worth of range, and if I plan to do a road trip, it only takes minutes to top up my tank if needed, and the same applies to hydrogen.


Aesma wrote:
I'm not hell bent,

I wasn't referring to you directly, it was just a general comment.
Aesma wrote:
I'm convinced H2 cars will not be a thing, but I don't really need to argue about it

You don't have to be convinced, and no, there is no need to argue as some countries are ramping up hydrogen infrastructure and investing billions of dollars into it because they believe that there is a viable use for it in the green transportation world. This isn't VHS vs Beta, this is much more of complicated issue than that.
Aesma wrote:
battery cars are here, you have a charging infrastructure, it needs improvement but it's significant already, and even without that infrastructure

Yes, BEVs are here, and they're here to stay (until the next revolution comes along), but that doesn't mean its the only solution. Transportation has different needs and countries have different requirements and BEVs aren't the solution for everything and everyone.
Aesma wrote:
every country has billions of plugs where you can get some charge back.

There is more to EV infrastructure then just a plug in the wall.
Aesma wrote:
H2 has basically no infrastructure

10 years ago there was basically no EV infrastructure, and in some parts of the world the infrastructure still isn't there.
Aesma wrote:
H2 cars don't exist aside from 2-3 extremely expensive ones.

Yes, the selections are currently small and I doubt there will be as many as EVs but there will be more in the future. As for price, the Toyota Mirai costs $50000 CAD which is no more expensive then an EV plus it qualifies for the same Government rebates, incentives and perks that any other EV gets. But more importantly, long haul trucking will benefit the most from hydrogen. For perspective, on any given day, about a couple of thousand long haul trucks drive through the Roger's Pass here in BC, if they were all BEV, the amount of chargers you would need on both ends of the Rockies is staggering. The land required to place all those chargers isn't there, the costs involved would be astronomical and the down time for the trucks to charge would cost the trucking industry (and eventually the consumer) billions of dollars a year. Now, if those trucks are hydrogen powered, they'll emit next to no emissions if any at all (again, this is the goal) while benefiting from the same efficiency and convenience we have today with traditional diesel power plants, the infrastructure cost would be significantly less vs thousands of required chargers. This is what our Government sees as the most viable solution, this is what our Government is investing in. What your Government sees as best and what they invest in is up to your Government and that's cool. We have different needs and our strategy reflects that.
Aesma wrote:
In 2018 I visited Viet Nam and most people drive scooters there. Many of them were electric already, and you could see them plugged in shops, restaurants, in the streets with long cords...

I don't live in Vietnam, scooters here are a very small niche market and completely impractical as a main means of transportation. Plus, plugging in a scooter is quite a bit different than a 3000+ car with a much, much bigger battery. And as I mentioned in my earlier post, there is a guy in my apartment who has an EV scooter and he cannot charge it in the parkade as it is a fire risk because we've had a string of fires caused in my City by people charging their EV scooters so the "plug" has been pulled on that. It is what it is.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:46 pm

My first 'electric' car was a 2010 Prius - 600 mile range (I drove with a light foot, but not shy about accelerating when I needed to). My next car was a RAV4 ICE, got it because at 80 I thought I should have all of the safety features, which this particular one did. Also only drive less than 6K miles a year, I expect to do road trips again as COVID more or less fades in the background. I have a CT Tesla on order, but have some doubts it will arrive before I do another drop in miles per year. My doubts about that truck and its range are real, British Columbia, the Pacific Northwest, and isolated Southwest do not have a good charging system for electric, so so, but definitely improving fast. Hydrogen - forget it. It simply is not going to happen.
 
pune
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:34 pm

Infrastructure will continue to improve in case of electric. Saw this just now -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idrR9wtxKBs

So it's all about investment and recovery. The ones who will make money are the ones who will give more innovation and practical plans for the same. BYD is doing it, I hope other manufacturers do take lessons from it and improve their offerings otherwise they will be left behind. The same will happen with charging infrastructure today or tomorrow if the market is allowed to function normally. There is also the possibility of community-based charging systems that have not been tried at all and it's possible that would be the way to go. Depending on where you live and how much it's feasible (specifically getting land and whatnot). In countries where there is ample empty land (no need to chop forests or something) then you could have a lot of acceleration. Specifically, about Toyota, don't really see them surviving by the end of the decade unless they clean their act fast. And they are not alone, quite a few auto manufacturers are lobbying for the continuation of oil and gas as they didn't think of Plan B. The auto industry in my country has ample evidence of the same. Right now, they are winning but not realizing they are alienating quite a significant percentage of population.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:05 pm

And in other news - courier company switches from EV to hydrogen because a simple quick refuel vs waiting for an EV to charge costs them money:

https://driving.ca/auto-news/local-cont ... el-toyotas

And with our Government's commitment to ramp up hydrogen infrastructure, more companies will do the same.

Hydrogen vs BEV in the real world:

https://www.mountainviewtoday.ca/beyond ... rt-5370142
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:17 pm

From the comment the refuel isn't necessarily quick, if the station has been used a few times before you want to use it. Also is he sure the H2 is green ?
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:35 pm

Aesma wrote:
From the comment the refuel isn't necessarily quick, if the station has been used a few times before you want to use it.

The individual in the article literally says "and the reason we went with the Mirai is that its five-minute refuel is incredible"

There's another article embedded in the article in regards to a partnership between Lyft rideshare, Toyota and the Government of BC to get more hydrogen powered vehicles on the road to highlight that there are other climate friendly transportation alternatives to BEVs.

Aesma wrote:
Also is he sure the H2 is green ?

Even if it isn't today, it will be in the very near future given the investments our Provincial and Federal Government is pouring into clean hydrogen.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:54 am

ACDC8 wrote:
The individual in the article literally says "and the reason we went with the Mirai is that its five-minute refuel is incredible".[...]

There is like four hydrogen stations in the Vancouver BC area. So depending on where you live it can be ten to twenty minutes to get to one from your home. So 20 to 40 minutes in addition to the fueling time.

All elements matter. Betamax was superior to VHS but various factors conspired to make VHS the winner. I could see hydrogen working for trucking and long haul needs. Kind of like "the new diesel" but to break through to the mass market I still think it will need to be a liquid/energy dense fuel that can be stored at ambient temps. If that is achieve, then fuel cells, and lets face that is really what we are talking about, not hydrogen, will win and own the market.

Tugg
 
kelval
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:42 am

Tugger wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
The individual in the article literally says "and the reason we went with the Mirai is that its five-minute refuel is incredible".[...]

There is like four hydrogen stations in the Vancouver BC area. So depending on where you live it can be ten to twenty minutes to get to one from your home. So 20 to 40 minutes in addition to the fueling time.

All elements matter. Betamax was superior to VHS but various factors conspired to make VHS the winner. I could see hydrogen working for trucking and long haul needs. Kind of like "the new diesel" but to break through to the mass market I still think it will need to be a liquid/energy dense fuel that can be stored at ambient temps. If that is achieve, then fuel cells, and lets face that is really what we are talking about, not hydrogen, will win and own the market.

Tugg


I think the market is quite bigger.
There is currently next to no offer for the small business van (4 WD truck in some countries).
As a plumber/hvac tech, I've been on the lookout for a more eco friendly van for years now, and there's nothing that remotely comes close to my needs.

Current and coming electric vans are ok for parcel services that move around a lot of volume, but little weight.
For my use, those vans's range alone is already quite a problem in a scarcely populated area (yeah, no, everyone can't live in big towns), even more when you have a lot of tools that add weight and add to consumption. But this isn't the main deal.
The real problem lies in the chassis certifications limits, when you add the battery weight for an EV. I can't even load all my tools, my bits and tubes and my own self in the van before it's over the legal weight limit. And that is when I go out for a repair. Sometimes I have to get more stuff in, a water heater tank or whatever... Not loading the bits and tubes would mean a potential 1 to 3hrs trip to the depot or the retailer for resupply wich would add near ubearable costs to the customer, and a need for lot more manpower as we would do half what we can do atm (half the day spent on the road).

As I've said, I've been on the lookout for several years now, and I can't see anything that answers that need in the near future in the industry. They soldier on with gas/diesel vans as it is.

I think that there is quite the added market to long haul trucks there, even more so because those types of vehicles have a lot of storage room for comparatively inefficient energy sources.

I agree that the EV is the way to go for personnal/family transportation outside of towns, but I think the market for hydrogen is quite bigger than some envision, even if it's probably quite specialized.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:49 am

kelval wrote:
As I've said, I've been on the lookout for several years now, and I can't see anything that answers that need in the near future in the industry. They soldier on with gas/diesel vans as it is.

To be honest, I suspect that those vehicles will remain as they are for some time. Battery development and manufacturing changes require significant investment and the car OEMs would much rather sell low volume, high-yield SUVs and sedans while the technology is still new. Small trucks and utility vans have never been at the forefront of technology development.

The one area where we're already seeing more and more electric vans is mail, since these stop often and typically don't travel that far.

For long-distance trucking, there are some advantages to hydrogen. Range is not the issue but heavy batteries eat into the possible payload weight.
On the other hand, the need for drivers to take breaks every few hours also creates the opportunity to recharge batteries. Trains are similar, since they stop according to schedule ever so often, this creates the opportunity to use small, fast-charging batteries. E. g. the Stadler Flirt with 150km range, 15 min charging time https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/flirt-akku/details/
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:30 am

Tugger wrote:
There is like four hydrogen stations in the Vancouver BC area. So depending on where you live it can be ten to twenty minutes to get to one from your home. So 20 to 40 minutes in addition to the fueling time.

Which is why our Government is investing heavily in hydrogen so more and more fill stations will be available. Just as with EVs, both types of vehicles aren't for everyone right now, we still need ICE vehicles to maintain our civilization on a daily basis, but for there are those who can make an EV work that are looking at other options such as hydrogen and some are finding it works better for them despite there still being a limited number of fill stations. The shift away from fossil fuels is in full force and with that our Government recognizes the need for hydrogen fill stations to be common place - just as they're investing in charging infrastructure. There is a market and need for various forms of green energy to power our transportation infrastructure, there is no one shoe fits all.

As for the article I posted, the company used EVs prior to the shift to a hydrogen car and the owner seems to be pretty darn happy about the move even though we only have 4 stations here currently.

BC Transit also tried hydrogen buses back during the 2010 Olympics and it didn't work because of the costs compared to diesel, but now as things have changed - there's more of a push to clean power and the price of and to maintain a hydrogen bus has come down and will come down even more in the coming years and hydrogen buses are being looked at again along with CNG and BEVs.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:33 am

kelval : are you talking about weight limits as in the payload of the vehicle, or limits on your driving license ? Looking into this I see some governments have changed the limits to alleviate that later case (3,5 tons limit for a standard driving license in Europe).

About payload can you give numbers ? My company is switching to electric as much as possible (they tried to get me into a Peugeot e208) but so far I haven't seen an electric van outside of the courier van staying in a small perimeter (that one has been electric for a long time, a Renault Kangoo). It is relatively common for my colleagues in vans to drive cross country so I'm not too surprised.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:53 am

mxaxai wrote:
For long-distance trucking, there are some advantages to hydrogen. Range is not the issue but heavy batteries eat into the possible payload weight.
On the other hand, the need for drivers to take breaks every few hours also creates the opportunity to recharge batteries. Trains are similar, since they stop according to schedule ever so often, this creates the opportunity to use small, fast-charging batteries. E. g. the Stadler Flirt with 150km range, 15 min charging time https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/flirt-akku/details/

Actually, range is an issue, a very big issue with long haul trucking - for example, Tesla's truck with an estimated 300-500 miles of range isn't going to cut it for most operators going through the Canadian Rockies, it'll need to be at least double that to make any economic sense.

As far as breaks are concerned, unless the National Safety Code is completely revamped (which it won't be), truckers here take breaks when they are legally required to, not when they want to, and having to take a break every few hours to recharge the truck will cost owner/operators a lot of money that will eventually be passed on to an already broke consumer. Add to that, a lot of the trucks here are driven in tandem - one guy drives, the other guy is in the berth resting/sleeping and when its time to switch, they switch until they've reached the legal requirement when they have to rest/sleep outside of the truck, so those trucks are literally running 24/7 depending on what cycle they're running.

I can tell you some pretty interesting stories from some of my friends who are heavy duty mechanics when they work underneath the truck and notice a nice cutout hole from the berth - these trucks don't stop, not even to take a poopie.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:25 am

ACDC8 wrote:
And in other news - courier company switches from EV to hydrogen because a simple quick refuel vs waiting for an EV to charge costs them money:

https://driving.ca/auto-news/local-cont ... el-toyotas



Amazon seems to have their eyes on BEV, though.

I see a lot of BEV Vitos and Transits delivering for them.

There are quite a few BEV semis already in operation, and the lack of high-profile news tells me you need to fit them into very specific routes rather than a massive rollout.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:53 am

JJJ wrote:
Amazon seems to have their eyes on BEV, though.

I see a lot of BEV Vitos and Transits delivering for them.

There are quite a few BEV semis already in operation, and the lack of high-profile news tells me you need to fit them into very specific routes rather than a massive rollout.

Yup, there will be market for both and maybe even other green technologies. The road transportation industry is vast and has a myriad of needs to best suit their operations. EV trucks driving certain corridors here, lets say Calgary to Edmonton or Toronto to Montreal, that's where they could work rather well, but its the really long distances and in Canada, we have some very long distances or corridors like Rogers Pass or the Yellowhead or some of the roads going way up north, that's where some very big problems come in and those problems are easily solved with hydrogen.

We don't really have much for EV vans yet, and to be honest, I'm quite shocked that VW hasn't announced any plans to bring the ID Buzz cargo to our market - real shame, would have made a real cool shag van with some shag rugs, a little bar and a bed and those little bubble windows in the back lol.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying hydrogen is better than EVs or that it'll be bigger and better than EVs, I'm just pointing that there are some shoes that EVs simply can't fill and hydrogen is becoming a very real option to fill those shoes and if one is to believe that the whole purpose of EVs is to get away from fossil fuels, then filling those shoes is what we need to do.
Last edited by ACDC8 on Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:07 am

Tugger wrote:
All elements matter. Betamax was superior to VHS but various factors conspired to make VHS the winner. I could see hydrogen working for trucking and long haul needs. Kind of like "the new diesel" but to break through to the mass market I still think it will need to be a liquid/energy dense fuel that can be stored at ambient temps. If that is achieve, then fuel cells, and lets face that is really what we are talking about, not hydrogen, will win and own the market.

Tugg

Sorry, I forgot to reply to this part when I originally commented on your post: I do agree with you that we won't see hydrogen for the mass market, meaning every household or every second household, but there is a market for and even though it may be limited, its still a big market even if that market is strictly commercial in nature.
 
kelval
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:09 pm

Aesma wrote:
kelval : are you talking about weight limits as in the payload of the vehicle, or limits on your driving license ? Looking into this I see some governments have changed the limits to alleviate that later case (3,5 tons limit for a standard driving license in Europe).

About payload can you give numbers ? My company is switching to electric as much as possible (they tried to get me into a Peugeot e208) but so far I haven't seen an electric van outside of the courier van staying in a small perimeter (that one has been electric for a long time, a Renault Kangoo). It is relatively common for my colleagues in vans to drive cross country so I'm not too surprised.


It's all about the payload of the vehicle.
Currently, my Fiat Scudo has a 2.9 ton maxweight (PTAC for you and me) and a max payload of 1ton. When I happen to drive on a scale, I'm always within 200kgs or less of that weight, wich leaves little room for batteries.

Now, the last time I looked into this was when I was making my investment plans around february-march, and the max payload on the main platforms (PSA, Renault, VW, Mercedes is out of my league, I didn't even look) at the time was 750kgs wich was way too low.

Today's debate made me look into it again to search for numbers, and things have changed inbetween as I looked it up. Peugeot is offering an electric Expert (wasn't even on offer last time) with a 1 ton payload around 45 000€ bare (bare, without any options, without taxes), and even an hydrogen one, at the ludicrous price of 110 000€ without taxes.

So I stand corrected, things are starting to evolve just as we speak, and we may start to see something useable in the coming years.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:40 pm

ICE vehicles may continue to have a niche for quite a while. And if it continues but mostly only where needed that will not be a problem. Better bio-fuels, as with aviation, still can replace some of the FF used. As yet, there is no technology for hydrogen in most of those niches, neither production, nor distribution, nor fuel cells. Yet.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:25 pm

I believe we're headed into the diversification of energy sources for vehicles. Where petrol reigned, a mix of BEVs, Hydrogen/fuel cell vehicles and ICE will emerge, along with their respective infrastructure.

Batteries will likely remain more suited to smaller vehicles (unless battery tech evolves rapidly) and H2 will likely power larger ones.
That being said, neither the Tesla truck nor Nikola's hydrogen powered competitor seem very forthcoming...
 
M564038
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:02 pm

Fossil does have a very high energy density and will continue to play a role in some fringe cases. Outback alaska, canada, australia and most of antarctica won’t have great charging infrastructure for some time to come. However for the 96% remaining transportation, electrification through batteries is a done deal, and the water has withdrawn before that tsunami. Hydrogen is an aeroplane with flapping wings ca. 1908.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:48 pm

res the bush in Alaska. While I don't disagree that FFs will have a place, they are grossly expensive. Where I spent a long summer, outside supplies including gas and diesel have to be barged up to the mouth of the Yukon, then barged up river, hence to 'my' river and another 100(?) miles up river. Probably a factor for why those villages are losing population so badly.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:28 pm

M564038 wrote:
Fossil does have a very high energy density and will continue to play a role in some fringe cases. Outback alaska, canada, australia and most of antarctica won’t have great charging infrastructure for some time to come. However for the 96% remaining transportation, electrification through batteries is a done deal, and the water has withdrawn before that tsunami. Hydrogen is an aeroplane with flapping wings ca. 1908.


I understand living in Norway can tell you that but most of the world still can't access that electrification on cost and availability grounds.

Most of Asia, Africa and South America is decades away from meaningful electrification if it ever gets there.

Hydrogen now is at the stage BEVs were just 10 years ago. It might well be the diesel to BEVs petrol in the electrified mix of years to come.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:29 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
As far as breaks are concerned, unless the National Safety Code is completely revamped (which it won't be), truckers here take breaks when they are legally required to, not when they want to, and having to take a break every few hours to recharge the truck will cost owner/operators a lot of money that will eventually be passed on to an already broke consumer.

I guess that's a difference between the laws east and west of the Atlantic. In the EU, driver laws require a 45 min break every 4.5h, with up to 9h of driving each day (10h in certain exceptions). In addition, time spent sleeping in the moving vehicle is not counted to the legal resting times (9h per day, essentially). So you could theoretically keep driving for 20h nonstop with two drivers, followed by a 9h break.

However, the vast majority of trucks only have a single driver here. Unless you're hauling something extremely urgent, the extra hassle is rarely worth it. So, assuming drivers stick to the speed limit, a range of 400km is sufficient to get from one stop to the next. Then you would need a fast charge for the second leg. A slow charge is acceptable while the driver sleeps.

Mercedes-Benz has announced a semi with 500km range, 30 min charging time for 20-80%, coming in 2024. https://media.daimlertruck.com/marsMedi ... d=51948046
Now, they're also investing in hydrogen so I guess they see a market there. But that will take until end of the decade, a lot of time for things to change.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:56 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I guess that's a difference between the laws east and west of the Atlantic. In the EU, driver laws require a 45 min break every 4.5h, with up to 9h of driving each day (10h in certain exceptions). In addition, time spent sleeping in the moving vehicle is not counted to the legal resting times (9h per day, essentially). So you could theoretically keep driving for 20h nonstop with two drivers, followed by a 9h break.

Oh for sure, the differences are huge between here and Europe. In Canada for example, we can drive up to 13 hours a day (14 hours on duty time) and sleeping in your berth counts as off duty time up to until the cycle requirements are met which also depends on which cycle you're driving, either the 7 day or 14 day cycle. So there in lies the problem, fact is that an EV truck will simplyl have more down time compared to a hydrogen powered truck, that's just the simple reality of it. So if trucking company A opts for EV trucks, while their trucks sit idle every few hundred kms, their competitor with hydrogen powered trucks will be able to keep moving, keep their revenue flowing in and keep their customers happy.
mxaxai wrote:
However, the vast majority of trucks only have a single driver here. Unless you're hauling something extremely urgent, the extra hassle is rarely worth it. So, assuming drivers stick to the speed limit, a range of 400km is sufficient to get from one stop to the next. Then you would need a fast charge for the second leg. A slow charge is acceptable while the driver sleeps.

Yeah, we need to drive a wee bit more than 400kms to get from one stop to the next - in some instances, you won't even see a single rest area in between that distance.

If you drive from say Vancouver to the Interior of BC, once you leave the Fraser Valley, its about 300kms before you hit the next city of a notable population size - there are a couple of towns in between, and yes those towns do provide trucking facilities, but they are limited and bypassed by the majority of trucks. Going further East, say from the Interior of BC to Calgary, that distance is about 600kms between cities of notable population sizes, go up north and its even more.

Interestingly, having grown up here in BC, there used to be time when there were truck stops everywhere, but now they're mostly out of business as trucks are driving farther and longer than they have in the past.

But back to EV trucks in general, the problem here is where do you want to put the chargers? Just as an example, take the Trans Canada highway between Revelstoke and Calgary - that stretch sees about 2000 trucks drive through on any given day and the distance is about just over 400kms, which in theory fits into the range of an EV truck, but in reality its much more different as there are a dozen other factors involved such as road delays, detours and anyone who knows this stretch knows that this is very common place. During the winter, one avalanche will knock the road out and trucks will be stranded up there for days because there is no place to turn around. During the summer, the frequent accidents and construction can add hours to a trip, plus the terrain will take a lot out of the range of any EV vehicle just as it does with an ICE's fuel consumption. So realistically, the only places you could really set up charging facilities would be in Revelstoke, Golden and east of Canmore because everything in between those places are National Parks and nothing will ever be built there. So, with an average of 2000 trucks in a 24 hour period needing to charge at those points, the amount of chargers required would be enormous and unrealistic.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:32 am

mxaxai wrote:
.

Mercedes-Benz has announced a semi with 500km range, 30 min charging time for 20-80%, coming in 2024. https://media.daimlertruck.com/marsMedi ... d=51948046
Now, they're also investing in hydrogen so I guess they see a market there. But that will take until end of the decade, a lot of time for things to change.


Yes, 500km range but mute on what's the load it's pulling to meet that range. That's where all truck manufacturers so far haven't been releasing specs.

The fact that there will be 300 and 400 versions tells you it's about tailoring the trailer to to a particular route regime.
 
pune
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:38 am

Have you looked at arrival. As a consumer I do find the design cute, although what their export plans is not much known.

https://arrival.com/

For most American and European manufacturers, that is the thing they need to figure out, the technology that works out of the box.

Why Tesa sells is they figured out not just the hardware but also the software. The others are a long long way from them. Why most of these manufacturers do not learn from Tesla, or Google, or Android I never know. Why not have standardized interfaces?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:14 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
res the bush in Alaska. While I don't disagree that FFs will have a place, they are grossly expensive. Where I spent a long summer, outside supplies including gas and diesel have to be barged up to the mouth of the Yukon, then barged up river, hence to 'my' river and another 100(?) miles up river. Probably a factor for why those villages are losing population so badly.


Yeah maybe living there doesn't make sense, especially if you have to pollute 10 times more than average to do so. But with BEV it might actually make more sense, have big solar and wind farms built (with heating or something so they don't freeze) then you can power homes, electric snowmobiles, electric 4X4, electric Beavers...

Or go nuclear.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:36 am

Aesma wrote:
But with BEV it might actually make more sense, have big solar and wind farms built (with heating or something so they don't freeze) then you can power homes, electric snowmobiles, electric 4X4, electric Beavers...

Solar is going to be an issue so far up north, too little sun (if any) in winter. Would work well in summer, though, and would reduce the number of required fuel shipments.
Still, you'd need to install wind turbines and some form of energy storage to get you through the winter. Stationary energy storage might make sense for hydrogen, since you don't need to worry about all the transport problems.

JJJ wrote:
Yes, 500km range but mute on what's the load it's pulling to meet that range. That's where all truck manufacturers so far haven't been releasing specs.

The fact that there will be 300 and 400 versions tells you it's about tailoring the trailer to to a particular route regime.

The press release talks about a "40-ton truck". I would expect them to advertise range at that weight, not empty.

The smaller variants are tailored to customers who don't need the big battery. It saves costs, simple as that.
 
pune
Topic Author
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:45 am

Have no experience of those winters but wouldn't something like gravitricity work? https://gravitricity.com/. The idea through simple do not know how much work would it be in sub-zero temperatures or would it even work? I remember how companies didn't winterize the tools properly and then things go south.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:16 am

mxaxai wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Yes, 500km range but mute on what's the load it's pulling to meet that range. That's where all truck manufacturers so far haven't been releasing specs.

The fact that there will be 300 and 400 versions tells you it's about tailoring the trailer to to a particular route regime.

The press release talks about a "40-ton truck". I would expect them to advertise range at that weight, not empty.

The smaller variants are tailored to customers who don't need the big battery. It saves costs, simple as that.


https://sasatimes.com/40-ton-gross-weig ... ck-forest/

40T is the weight for the full combination, this article talks about 18T permissible weight for the eActros 300 km range version, while the usual diesel trucks are generally operating at 24/25T depending on the specific country.

The 400 and 500 version will have to come with even lower max cargo since the battery is the heaviest part of the powertrain. Granted, not everyone needs the weight, but there's a compromise right there. Again, there's a reason why manufacturers are being extra careful with releasing the numbers.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:32 pm

JJJ wrote:
Granted, not everyone needs the weight

Such as potato chip companies like Lays and Old Dutch :biggrin:
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:41 am

Aesma wrote:
From the comment the refuel isn't necessarily quick, if the station has been used a few times before you want to use it. Also is he sure the H2 is green ?


The thing is that every argument I've seen you use so far could have been used for EVs 10 years ago.
-Not enough infrastructure
-Power generation isn't green
-Only a few models exist

There is a market for a H2 infrastructure. H2 can be pulled out of the air or any body of water by cracking H2O, which can be done using dirty coal electricity or clean renewable electricity. Or fusion (it's going to happen eventually). And if H2 manufacturers want to sell their cars, then they're going to have to also support the development of that H2 infrastructure.

Now, the question is is H2 going to compete directly with EV? If so, I predict EV wins because it has the head start. But if the two systems are complementary, then they could very well work together. This doesn't have to be the L1011 vs. the DC-10. It can be more like the DC-10 vs. the 747.
 
max999
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:20 pm

Both fuel types are going to be useful for automobiles.
Hydrogen will be for commercial vehicles
Batteries will be for personal vehicles
 
M564038
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:51 pm

Forget hydrogen.
Most delivery vans, delivery and local trucks not to speak of city busses in my city are now EVs. They just decided to speed up the replacement of fossil busses because they are so pleased with the electric ones.

Hydrogen might have a niche in long distance trucking, rest regulations makes even that kind of marginal.


max999 wrote:
Both fuel types are going to be useful for automobiles.
Hydrogen will be for commercial vehicles
Batteries will be for personal vehicles
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:31 pm

M564038 wrote:
Forget hydrogen.
Most delivery vans, delivery and local trucks not to speak of city busses in my city are now EVs. They just decided to speed up the replacement of fossil busses because they are so pleased with the electric ones.


The reason there are no hydrogen delivery vans at the moment is because infrastructure is almost nonexistent and prices are 2 to 3 times those of BEVs.

That was exactly the situation of BEVs not so long ago in the developed world. In many countries it's still exactly like that.
 
M564038
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:51 pm

Not entirely true. We’ve had several filling stations, strong incentives and several state funded projects for hydrogen too. A mate of me had 2 hydrogen cars, as he mistakenly thought it had a future. We even had one of the filling stations blow up. That was fun, I tell you.

https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/eksplosjon-v ... 1.14582944

Hydrogen came and went away. The top sales year was 2017.

JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Forget hydrogen.
Most delivery vans, delivery and local trucks not to speak of city busses in my city are now EVs. They just decided to speed up the replacement of fossil busses because they are so pleased with the electric ones.


The reason there are no hydrogen delivery vans at the moment is because infrastructure is almost nonexistent and prices are 2 to 3 times those of BEVs.

That was exactly the situation of BEVs not so long ago in the developed world. In many countries it's still exactly like that.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:20 pm

M564038 wrote:
Not entirely true. We’ve had several filling stations, strong incentives and several state funded projects for hydrogen too. A mate of me had 2 hydrogen cars, as he mistakenly thought it had a future. We even had one of the filling stations blow up. That was fun, I tell you.

https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/eksplosjon-v ... 1.14582944

Hydrogen came and went away. The top sales year was 2017.

JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Forget hydrogen.
Most delivery vans, delivery and local trucks not to speak of city busses in my city are now EVs. They just decided to speed up the replacement of fossil busses because they are so pleased with the electric ones.


The reason there are no hydrogen delivery vans at the moment is because infrastructure is almost nonexistent and prices are 2 to 3 times those of BEVs.

That was exactly the situation of BEVs not so long ago in the developed world. In many countries it's still exactly like that.


You're greatly underestimating the amount of funding that's heading to hydrogen. At the manufacturer and government level.

You're judging it by the equivalent of the GM EV1.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:31 pm

M564038 wrote:
Hydrogen came and went away. The top sales year was 2017.

And with more and more Countries/States/Provinces making a shift towards ZEV mandates, hydrogen is making a come back.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:18 pm

About the cost of the vehicles, they're electric, so drivetrain is the same. They also need a small battery, like an hybrid. Then you have the fuel cell(s) and the H2 storage. It's difficult to see how it could end up competitive with BEVs. And of course the cost to refuel it is much higher, so far.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:50 pm

If a low capital cost electrolysers and ammonia production equipment are developed pressurized hydrogen or ammonia for fertilizer could sop up all of the excess electric production. I have seen estimates as high as $1 trillion for totally updating the electric grid.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
About the cost of the vehicles, they're electric, so drivetrain is the same. They also need a small battery, like an hybrid. Then you have the fuel cell(s) and the H2 storage. It's difficult to see how it could end up competitive with BEVs. And of course the cost to refuel it is much higher, so far.


A major concern of BEVs in trucking is battery longevity. Batteries degrade significantly with fast charging, that's not the case with H2.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:28 pm

Fuel cells also degrade. There is a bit of a race going on as fuel cells try to compete. Thus far battery improvements are winning. Past performance is no guarantee future results, famous investment caution, and applies here. Fuel cells certainly have a place, but thus far not doing well.
 
M564038
Posts: 1200
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:32 pm

Ja, mann, you are the expert! The battery of my 2016 EV lost a full Km of range in those 2 years I only charged at hyperchargers. (Fastchargers <50kW Superchargers =Tesla Hyper >50kW)

JJJ wrote:
Aesma wrote:
About the cost of the vehicles, they're electric, so drivetrain is the same. They also need a small battery, like an hybrid. Then you have the fuel cell(s) and the H2 storage. It's difficult to see how it could end up competitive with BEVs. And of course the cost to refuel it is much higher, so far.


A major concern of BEVs in trucking is battery longevity. Batteries degrade significantly with fast charging, that's not the case with H2.

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