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JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:49 pm

M564038 wrote:
Ja, mann, you are the expert! The battery of my 2016 EV lost a full Km of range in those 2 years I only charged at hyperchargers. (Fastchargers <50kW Superchargers =Tesla Hyper >50kW)


Degradation and payload/range are the two main issue being researched at the manufacturer level at this moment.

Dismissing them won't make the problem go away.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 04, 2022 2:25 pm

While batteries have increased in price this last year, they are expected to resume dropping in price in the future. A vehicle should be designed to inexpensively have the battery pack replaced. After the charging network is improved over the next few years 60-75 kWh packs likely will be sufficient and that new pack could cost as little as $5K. $75 a kWh; labor and other parts - trade in value of old battery pack. Musk has already suggested that the cheaper chemistry battery available on some models in the US can be used deeper and high speed charged to 100% than the standard ones. Hence their lower capacity for the same weight is not as much of a disadvantage as it first appears.
 
M564038
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:28 pm

Are you posting this into the future from 2014 without knowing? We are in 2022, how EV batteries work is not science fiction or classified technology. The auto shop down the street has been making solar storage battery-solutions from old condemned Nissan Leaf batteries for several years already.
JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Ja, mann, you are the expert! The battery of my 2016 EV lost a full Km of range in those 2 years I only charged at hyperchargers. (Fastchargers <50kW Superchargers =Tesla Hyper >50kW)


Degradation and payload/range are the two main issue being researched at the manufacturer level at this moment.

Dismissing them won't make the problem go away.
 
cpd
Posts: 7491
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:48 pm

EVs here in my country are no longer a rarity, they are quite common.

Bigger range and larger batteries have made them realistic for a lot of people. By contrast the only hydrogen car sold here is just a trial/experiment and there is hardly any infrastructure.

And the Toyota drives like a ship in comparison.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:31 am

M564038 wrote:
Are you posting this into the future from 2014 without knowing? We are in 2022, how EV batteries work is not science fiction or classified technology. The auto shop down the street has been making solar storage battery-solutions from old condemned Nissan Leaf batteries for several years already. ]


We know how batteries work, the economics of large scale battery use in long distance trucking is still a big question mark.

The fact that old batteries can be repurposed doesn't matter for the economics of operating a fleet of semis. Whether they're repurposed or broken for materials whoever uses those decommissioned batteries next will pay zero (or even get paid for it), they're effectively scrap. Ask the auto shop how much they paid for those batteries.

I have solar at home, my wife drives a PHEV with over 90% electric mileage. There are EVs outside of Norway, you know, and outside of Norway the math probably works very different.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:09 pm

JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Are you posting this into the future from 2014 without knowing? We are in 2022, how EV batteries work is not science fiction or classified technology. The auto shop down the street has been making solar storage battery-solutions from old condemned Nissan Leaf batteries for several years already. ]


We know how batteries work, the economics of large scale battery use in long distance trucking is still a big question mark.

The fact that old batteries can be repurposed doesn't matter for the economics of operating a fleet of semis. Whether they're repurposed or broken for materials whoever uses those decommissioned batteries next will pay zero (or even get paid for it), they're effectively scrap. Ask the auto shop how much they paid for those batteries.

I have solar at home, my wife drives a PHEV with over 90% electric mileage. There are EVs outside of Norway, you know, and outside of Norway the math probably works very different.


https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-a ... ing-range/ gives you some idea although they have left out lot of the Chinese and the Chinese are quickly becoming masters of the whole thing.

And then there is this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvkGJPmxrGI
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:43 pm

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Are you posting this into the future from 2014 without knowing? We are in 2022, how EV batteries work is not science fiction or classified technology. The auto shop down the street has been making solar storage battery-solutions from old condemned Nissan Leaf batteries for several years already. ]


We know how batteries work, the economics of large scale battery use in long distance trucking is still a big question mark.

The fact that old batteries can be repurposed doesn't matter for the economics of operating a fleet of semis. Whether they're repurposed or broken for materials whoever uses those decommissioned batteries next will pay zero (or even get paid for it), they're effectively scrap. Ask the auto shop how much they paid for those batteries.

I have solar at home, my wife drives a PHEV with over 90% electric mileage. There are EVs outside of Norway, you know, and outside of Norway the math probably works very different.


https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-a ... ing-range/ gives you some idea although they have left out lot of the Chinese and the Chinese are quickly becoming masters of the whole thing.

And then there is this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvkGJPmxrGI


Anyone can put a 100kwh+ in a luxury car and get a lot of range.

The range/payload/cost curve of BEV trucking is what were discussing here.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:24 am

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:

We know how batteries work, the economics of large scale battery use in long distance trucking is still a big question mark.

The fact that old batteries can be repurposed doesn't matter for the economics of operating a fleet of semis. Whether they're repurposed or broken for materials whoever uses those decommissioned batteries next will pay zero (or even get paid for it), they're effectively scrapped. Ask the auto shop how much they paid for those batteries.

I have solar at home, my wife drives a PHEV with over 90% electric mileage. There are EVs outside of Norway, you know, and outside of Norway the math probably works very differently.


https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-a ... ing-range/ gives you some idea although they have left out a lot of the Chinese and the Chinese are quickly becoming masters of the whole thing.

And then there is this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvkGJPmxrGI


Anyone can put a 100kwh+ in a luxury car and get a lot of range.

The range/payload/cost curve of BEV trucking is what we're discussing here.


Fixed a few spelling mistakes. True, but dunno if you saw some of the links I shared. Effectively in a year or two, those will be commonplace. There is more than enough competition and hunger especially on the Chinese end to export as many cars as they can. They are ambitious and ruthless. There is also a lot of incentive to have all sorts of chemistry play out in the marketplace as well as incremental increases in existing technnologies as well. So while you may have to wait for 100 kwh+ not everybody would wait for that or even needs to wait for that. They can buy whatever is in today's budget and after two-three-five-seven when they are comfortable,
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:46 am

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-a ... ing-range/ gives you some idea although they have left out a lot of the Chinese and the Chinese are quickly becoming masters of the whole thing.

And then there is this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvkGJPmxrGI


Anyone can put a 100kwh+ in a luxury car and get a lot of range.

The range/payload/cost curve of BEV trucking is what we're discussing here.


Fixed a few spelling mistakes. True, but dunno if you saw some of the links I shared. Effectively in a year or two, those will be commonplace. There is more than enough competition and hunger especially on the Chinese end to export as many cars as they can. They are ambitious and ruthless. There is also a lot of incentive to have all sorts of chemistry play out in the marketplace as well as incremental increases in existing technnologies as well. So while you may have to wait for 100 kwh+ not everybody would wait for that or even needs to wait for that. They can buy whatever is in today's budget and after two-three-five-seven when they are comfortable,


The cars are cool but they're still (expensive) passenger cars.

BEV semis have been on the road testing for years now, still a long way from adoption if they ever make it there.

OTOH BEV buses and delivery vans are reasonably common, why? Because they make a lot of sense in urban environments with volume load rather than heavy payload.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1926
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Hydrogen fills a need in the total energy landscape. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, it is a means of storage energy for middle long term. I see a future for hydrogen-fueled trucks, not normal cars. And in the far future, a means to store renewable energy if there is an excess of it. Currently, we have such days in the Netherlands where the spot energy prices are negative, in such a market it actually makes sense to make hydrogen, even though it isn't all that efficient to do so.


I think hydrogen is a fuel. It is a gas that contains energy. It can do pretty much anything methane, gasoline or diesel can do.

Maybe the distinction you are talking about is that we can synthesize hydrogen using electricity. True, but in theory we can synthesize e-diesel also.
 
pune
Topic Author
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:08 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Hydrogen fills a need in the total energy landscape. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, it is a means of storage energy for middle long term. I see a future for hydrogen-fueled trucks, not normal cars. And in the far future, a means to store renewable energy if there is an excess of it. Currently, we have such days in the Netherlands where the spot energy prices are negative, in such a market it actually makes sense to make hydrogen, even though it isn't all that efficient to do so.


I think hydrogen is a fuel. It is a gas that contains energy. It can do pretty much anything methane, gasoline, or diesel can do.

Maybe the distinction you are talking about is that we can synthesize hydrogen using electricity. True, but in theory, we can synthesize e-diesel also.


The best I saw as an idea was sand, heating sand and keeping the energy there indefinitely. Sand is the cheapest, easiest to have thing anywhere in the world. People are also talking about sodium, which again is plentifully available, doesn't need a lot of brains to have both, and is available everywhere. Of course, these are at the pilot stage but I do see both of them being useful long-term. and am hoping they both give us what we need. Of course, as more power is gained, we would find more ways to use it. VR for e.g. would go far further along if we had enough electricity. Also, coming this October, The Fully charged show on YouTube will be showcasing all sorts of technologies that would be green generation rather than greenwashing (which hydrogen is at least at this point in time. ).
 
M564038
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:14 pm

There has been a whole lot of goal posts moved quite some distance by quite a few anti-EV hold outs over the last couple of years.
Now we’re down to fractionally reduced payload for long range trucks in certain markets.
Used to be «impossible for me and my suitcase to get from one city to another»
 
cpd
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:35 pm

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Anyone can put a 100kwh+ in a luxury car and get a lot of range.

The range/payload/cost curve of BEV trucking is what we're discussing here.


Fixed a few spelling mistakes. True, but dunno if you saw some of the links I shared. Effectively in a year or two, those will be commonplace. There is more than enough competition and hunger especially on the Chinese end to export as many cars as they can. They are ambitious and ruthless. There is also a lot of incentive to have all sorts of chemistry play out in the marketplace as well as incremental increases in existing technnologies as well. So while you may have to wait for 100 kwh+ not everybody would wait for that or even needs to wait for that. They can buy whatever is in today's budget and after two-three-five-seven when they are comfortable,


The cars are cool but they're still (expensive) passenger cars.

BEV semis have been on the road testing for years now, still a long way from adoption if they ever make it there.

OTOH BEV buses and delivery vans are reasonably common, why? Because they make a lot of sense in urban environments with volume load rather than heavy payload.


It won’t be long before electric cars commonly do 1000km range or more. We have that now with 90kwh battery and the Mercedes EQXX (1200km range). Others are getting commonly 450-500km with older tech and less efficiency.

The days of no range are going away quickly.

At least in my country (which is anti EV) an electric car makes much more sense at the moment than the single hydrogen Toyota (which has no infrastructure to support it).
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:33 am

M564038 wrote:
There has been a whole lot of goal posts moved quite some distance by quite a few anti-EV hold outs over the last couple of years.
Now we’re down to fractionally reduced payload for long range trucks in certain markets.
Used to be «impossible for me and my suitcase to get from one city to another»


Going from 24 to 18 tons is a 25% reduction in payload.
.
That's quite the fraction. Imagine having to increase your fleet by 20% in addition to the higher upfront costs.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:46 am

M564038 wrote:
There has been a whole lot of goal posts moved quite some distance by quite a few anti-EV hold outs over the last couple of years.
Now we’re down to fractionally reduced payload for long range trucks in certain markets.
Used to be «impossible for me and my suitcase to get from one city to another»

And the pro-EV groups continue to preach that their personal preference for the future of transportation as the singular "one size fits all" solution for everyone and everything simply because "they like it".

Fighting climate change and reducing our carbon footprint in road transportation is a very big thing to accomplish and road transportation comes in many different shoe sizes and there is a market for all kinds of different styles which at the end of the day, help achieve the same objective.

Instead of constantly arguing that everyone needs to wear Nike's, maybe if they EV pushers were just a bit more open minded and start suggesting people take a look at Adidas or Reeboks instead, more people would be more open minded when it comes to trading in their old Sketchers.
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:54 am

cpd wrote:
JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:

Fixed a few spelling mistakes. True, but dunno if you saw some of the links I shared. Effectively in a year or two, those will be commonplace. There is more than enough competition and hunger especially on the Chinese end to export as many cars as they can. They are ambitious and ruthless. There is also a lot of incentive to have all sorts of chemistry play out in the marketplace as well as incremental increases in existing technnologies as well. So while you may have to wait for 100 kwh+ not everybody would wait for that or even needs to wait for that. They can buy whatever is in today's budget and after two-three-five-seven when they are comfortable,


The cars are cool but they're still (expensive) passenger cars.

BEV semis have been on the road testing for years now, still a long way from adoption if they ever make it there.

OTOH BEV buses and delivery vans are reasonably common, why? Because they make a lot of sense in urban environments with volume load rather than heavy payload.


It won’t be long before electric cars commonly do 1000km range or more. We have that now with 90kwh battery and the Mercedes EQXX (1200km range). Others are getting commonly 450-500km with older tech and less efficiency.


The trend should be for smaller, not bigger batteries, but with faster charging times.

The big barrier for EV adoption, especially outside of rich, developed countries is the cost.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:50 pm

There are no laws against hydrogen development. The recent IRA plans include money for hydrogen. Amongst other things because of the nature of wind and solar a lot of excess capacity is a desirable goal, which then entails both battery storage, and some industrial production of hydrogen or some green liquid fuel. It is the later which intrigues a lot of us. But let the chemists, engineers, scientists do the research leading to low cost production. Whatever, it will find a market.
 
M564038
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:18 pm

Absolutely agree EVs with smaller batteries has a place.
There has been a few models already which has reached legend status (among EV affecionados) for finding sweet spots in efficiency/weight/battery size/charging speed. The 2016-2019 28kWh Hyundai Ioniq was such a car, using only 20 minutes more than the comparable sized but almost 70% more expensive 70kWh Tesla model 3 LR on a 500Km distance, and with more included comforts using not much more than 1.0-1.2 kWh per 10Km on a summer’s day.
Insanely efficient.

Something with a little bit more endurance would fill 98% of the needs for 95% of drivers.

JJJ wrote:
cpd wrote:
JJJ wrote:

The cars are cool but they're still (expensive) passenger cars.

BEV semis have been on the road testing for years now, still a long way from adoption if they ever make it there.

OTOH BEV buses and delivery vans are reasonably common, why? Because they make a lot of sense in urban environments with volume load rather than heavy payload.


It won’t be long before electric cars commonly do 1000km range or more. We have that now with 90kwh battery and the Mercedes EQXX (1200km range). Others are getting commonly 450-500km with older tech and less efficiency.


The trend should be for smaller, not bigger batteries, but with faster charging times.

The big barrier for EV adoption, especially outside of rich, developed countries is the cost.
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:51 am

M564038 wrote:
Absolutely agree EVs with smaller batteries has a place.
There has been a few models already which has reached legend status (among EV affecionados) for finding sweet spots in efficiency/weight/battery size/charging speed.


My wife's PHEV has a 10kwh-ish battery which allows her to go 65 Kms on a single charge.

It is recharged at home on a slow plug on solar and over 90% of the mileage is on EV mode only. And zero range anxiety or need to change to a different vehicle because the engine is right there.

And it cost 6k euro less than the equivalent EV model.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:25 am

ACDC8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
There has been a whole lot of goal posts moved quite some distance by quite a few anti-EV hold outs over the last couple of years.
Now we’re down to fractionally reduced payload for long range trucks in certain markets.
Used to be «impossible for me and my suitcase to get from one city to another»

And the pro-EV groups continue to preach that their personal preference for the future of transportation as the singular "one size fits all" solution for everyone and everything simply because "they like it".

Fighting climate change and reducing our carbon footprint in road transportation is a very big thing to accomplish and road transportation comes in many different shoe sizes and there is a market for all kinds of different styles which at the end of the day, help achieve the same objective.

Instead of constantly arguing that everyone needs to wear Nike's, maybe if they EV pushers were just a bit more open minded and start suggesting people take a look at Adidas or Reeboks instead, more people would be more open minded when it comes to trading in their old Sketchers.


I agree that all avenues should be explored to reduce emissions.

The problem I see with hydrogen is that the investments needed are gigantic so a cost/benefit analysis must be done. If you spend 1 trillion on hydrogen and it leads to very few hydrogen vehicles, it's money that couldn't be used in other ways. The fact private companies don't seem too keen to spend their own money isn't too reassuring.

BEVs' current success are almost entirely down to one man, Elon Musk, who instead of just making a great electric car, also spent billions installing Tesla Superchargers all over the place. Other car manufacturers are much less keen to do the same, and for hydrogen, I don't see anything. Considering the hydrogen stations needed would be much more numerous, since there is no way to charge without them, so you need as many as gas pumps.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:33 pm

JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Absolutely agree EVs with smaller batteries has a place.
There has been a few models already which has reached legend status (among EV affecionados) for finding sweet spots in efficiency/weight/battery size/charging speed.


My wife's PHEV has a 10kwh-ish battery which allows her to go 65 Kms on a single charge.

It is recharged at home on a slow plug on solar and over 90% of the mileage is on EV mode only. And zero range anxiety or need to change to a different vehicle because the engine is right there.

And it cost 6k euro less than the equivalent EV model.


For reasons unknown, PHEVs have not taken off as much as seems logical. We will have battery shortages for at least the next five years. The charging network for the most part is not built out yet. Hybrids get between great and phenomenal mileage. Toyota has done a great job on the technology, but really, a terrible ramp up. Had they made them the major models across their offerings as the standard SUV/car/pickup the story could have been different. I think Tesla still would have done well, but Toyota could have been seen as their equal. And as JJJ has pointed out a PHEV lends itself to slow charging far more than an EV.
 
M564038
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:56 pm

Hybrids are over. They where HUGE here for a few years before enugh people catched on to how much better pure EVs is.
They are uneccesary complicated, and the statistics showed the amount driven electrically didn’t in total make up for the amount of fuel used to carry around the battery. Used as fleet cars they were hardly ever charged in practice, and the chapter of hybrids is now more or less closed for good.

That doesn’t mean you couldn’t find isolated success stories like JJJ’s around, but as a total it sidn’t work out.
 
pune
Topic Author
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:14 pm

M564038 wrote:
Hybrids are over. They were HUGE here for a few years before enough people caught on to how much better pure EVs is.
They are unnecessary complicated, and the statistics showed the amount driven electrically didn’t in total make up for the amount of fuel used to carry around the battery. Used as fleet cars they were hardly ever charged in practice, and the chapter of hybrids is now more or less closed for good.

That doesn’t mean you couldn’t find isolated success stories like JJJ’s around, but as total it didn’t work out.


Also, people like economics and want to see TCO. The problem with hybrids is you get the bad of the two and it's far more complex than either of the two. The thing with EVs that most people love is smaller or less number of moving parts, less wear and tear and hence fewer maintenance charges as well as the number of charges. There is enough data shared by people to tell that's true. So even with the argument that the front-loaded costs are higher, they should pay themselves back within 5-10 years depending on how much you drive every day. In fact, have recently seen quite a few videos where people had bought an EV car with 60 miles or so in charge in 2014 and they were able to get almost double or triple triple th e range.
 
pune
Topic Author
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:30 pm

As far as smaller cars with small batteries is concerned, I couldn't agree more. Things like VW ID buzz and others are right there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51fyxgcVrKM

The thing that makes EV's great is that a lot of design is freed up and you can get it as you like, Tear-drop shaped, Missile-shaped, you name it, they are out there. Noiseless and less polluted air, For most people who have been in one, it is life-changing. Here, in India or at least the city I belong to, they are hardly 1-2% , as the Govt. decided to tax them more. Two-wheelers are more popular than four-wheelers and they are a hoot to look at. This is even though, we get some of the lousiest bikes and cars around.
 
ACDC8
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:14 am

M564038 wrote:
Hybrids are over.

No, they're not. Hybrid sales are surging in the US and are far outpacing EV sales. Manufacturers like Toyota have unveiled more and more hybrids to choose from.
 
ACDC8
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:19 am

Aesma wrote:
The problem I see with hydrogen is that the investments needed are gigantic so a cost/benefit analysis must be done. If you spend 1 trillion on hydrogen and it leads to very few hydrogen vehicles.

The investments in hydrogen are being made and just as gigantic investments needed for BEV's are continuing to be made, from infrastructure to manufacturer and consumer rebates needed to bring BEVs to a price point that the common worker can even come close to affording equating to billions of dollars every year.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:57 am

M564038 wrote:
Hybrids are over. They where HUGE here for a few years before enugh people catched on to how much better pure EVs is.
They are uneccesary complicated, and the statistics showed the amount driven electrically didn’t in total make up for the amount of fuel used to carry around the battery. Used as fleet cars they were hardly ever charged in practice, and the chapter of hybrids is now more or less closed for good.


Statistics mostly around company cars that need very long drives (probably the reason they went for PHEV and not BEV anyway) drivers with company gas cards but who had to pay for electricity themselves and mostly for PHEVs with very low all EV range.

Once you get above 60 km range electric miles skyrocket.

The only problem with PHEV is, again, the price differential.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:19 pm

Theoretically hybrids are more complicated. That goes up against the real world experience that the Prius for example is one of the longest lasting more reliable used car a person can buy. The practical maximum life of a car is some 300,000 miles. Increasingly those small gas engines can go most of the distance. It is the cost of repairs of accidents, air conditioning, electronics that delivers the coup de grace sometime after 175,000 miles
 
M564038
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:50 pm

These experiences were drawn mainly from things like the postal services, health services, state and city technical services, service cars of all kinds in cities etc.
they ran on petrol and very little on the electric engine. Now these kind of services uses EVs.
Hybrids are obsolete and werent envrionmentally friendly to begin with.

JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Hybrids are over. They where HUGE here for a few years before enugh people catched on to how much better pure EVs is.
They are uneccesary complicated, and the statistics showed the amount driven electrically didn’t in total make up for the amount of fuel used to carry around the battery. Used as fleet cars they were hardly ever charged in practice, and the chapter of hybrids is now more or less closed for good.


Statistics mostly around company cars that need very long drives (probably the reason they went for PHEV and not BEV anyway) drivers with company gas cards but who had to pay for electricity themselves and mostly for PHEVs with very low all EV range.

Once you get above 60 km range electric miles skyrocket.

The only problem with PHEV is, again, the price differential.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:05 am

M564038 wrote:
These experiences were drawn mainly from things like the postal services, health services, state and city technical services, service cars of all kinds in cities etc.
they ran on petrol and very little on the electric engine. Now these kind of services uses EVs.
Hybrids are obsolete and werent envrionmentally friendly to begin with.]


What's your source for that?

Mine's this.

https://theicct.org/the-uptake-of-plug- ... -policies/
 
pune
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:18 pm

This is and was interesting to watch -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNegVC1u-zE
 
M564038
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:04 pm

Lots of them. There was a rather large debate on it when my city dropped them in favour of EVs already a few years back.
But you can use this as an intro to the subject:

https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp ... id_con.pdf

JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
These experiences were drawn mainly from things like the postal services, health services, state and city technical services, service cars of all kinds in cities etc.
they ran on petrol and very little on the electric engine. Now these kind of services uses EVs.
Hybrids are obsolete and werent envrionmentally friendly to begin with.]


What's your source for that?

Mine's this.

https://theicct.org/the-uptake-of-plug- ... -policies/
 
JJJ
Posts: 4402
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:24 pm

M564038 wrote:
Lots of them. There was a rather large debate on it when my city dropped them in favour of EVs already a few years back.
But you can use this as an intro to the subject:

https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp ... id_con.pdf


There is absolutely no indication on your link that they come from "postal services, health services, state and city technical services, service cars of all kinds in cities etc" as you said.

The article points at the ICCT report from 2018 (which it makes sense, it's a 2020 publication).

On the ICCT 2020 report 37% of private PHEV miles were all-electric. On the 2022 it's 45-49%, and 70% for the versions with higher range so it's getting there.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1926
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:58 pm

M564038 wrote:
Hybrids are over. They where HUGE here for a few years before enugh people catched on to how much better pure EVs is.
They are uneccesary complicated, and the statistics showed the amount driven electrically didn’t in total make up for the amount of fuel used to carry around the battery. Used as fleet cars they were hardly ever charged in practice, and the chapter of hybrids is now more or less closed for good.

That doesn’t mean you couldn’t find isolated success stories like JJJ’s around, but as a total it sidn’t work out.


I don’t think hybrids are over. EVs have insufficient range/refueling performance and cost way too much to manufacture. They will make sense… someday. For me, nothing beats a Toyota Hybrid if you are talking about practical low emission transportation. An EV practically cannot be an UBER car or a police car. Yet hybrid is a perfect solution TODAY for that market.

I like new technologies when they are cheap, dependable and durable. EV are not in my wheelhouse right now. I am looking 10-15 years out before they become compelling.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8979
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:05 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
An EV practically cannot be an UBER car or a police car.

I agree, LYFT rideshare where I live is actually working with Toyota and our Provincial Government in a program to promote hydrogen powered cars and get their drivers into a Toyota Mirai.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:53 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Hybrids are over. They where HUGE here for a few years before enugh people catched on to how much better pure EVs is.
They are uneccesary complicated, and the statistics showed the amount driven electrically didn’t in total make up for the amount of fuel used to carry around the battery. Used as fleet cars they were hardly ever charged in practice, and the chapter of hybrids is now more or less closed for good.

That doesn’t mean you couldn’t find isolated success stories like JJJ’s around, but as a total it sidn’t work out.


I don’t think hybrids are over. EVs have insufficient range/refueling performance and cost way too much to manufacture. They will make sense… someday. For me, nothing beats a Toyota Hybrid if you are talking about practical low emission transportation. An EV practically cannot be an UBER car or a police car. Yet hybrid is a perfect solution TODAY for that market.

I like new technologies when they are cheap, dependable and durable. EV are not in my wheelhouse right now. I am looking 10-15 years out before they become compelling.


You might have to change your statement 2-3 years down the line. It is costing too much to manufacture because of supply chain issues and that is down to covid. If you make the supply chains more robust and invest in it, you won't have problems. Even the price of energy in part is due to inefficient peaker plants and gas plants being shut during the pandemic and most of them decided to stay shut. I read in the news either yesterday or today that the EU is making the energy policy so that energy pricing from renewables would be separated from natural gas and others.As a result, sooner rather than later, more money would flow into renewables, both in sales as well as in R&D investment. which will further bring pricing down. Multi-junction solar cells are already making solar the king today and yet we have barely scratched the surface.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1926
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:46 am

pune wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Hybrids are over. They where HUGE here for a few years before enugh people catched on to how much better pure EVs is.
They are uneccesary complicated, and the statistics showed the amount driven electrically didn’t in total make up for the amount of fuel used to carry around the battery. Used as fleet cars they were hardly ever charged in practice, and the chapter of hybrids is now more or less closed for good.

That doesn’t mean you couldn’t find isolated success stories like JJJ’s around, but as a total it sidn’t work out.


I don’t think hybrids are over. EVs have insufficient range/refueling performance and cost way too much to manufacture. They will make sense… someday. For me, nothing beats a Toyota Hybrid if you are talking about practical low emission transportation. An EV practically cannot be an UBER car or a police car. Yet hybrid is a perfect solution TODAY for that market.

I like new technologies when they are cheap, dependable and durable. EV are not in my wheelhouse right now. I am looking 10-15 years out before they become compelling.


You might have to change your statement 2-3 years down the line. It is costing too much to manufacture because of supply chain issues and that is down to covid. If you make the supply chains more robust and invest in it, you won't have problems. Even the price of energy in part is due to inefficient peaker plants and gas plants being shut during the pandemic and most of them decided to stay shut. I read in the news either yesterday or today that the EU is making the energy policy so that energy pricing from renewables would be separated from natural gas and others.As a result, sooner rather than later, more money would flow into renewables, both in sales as well as in R&D investment. which will further bring pricing down. Multi-junction solar cells are already making solar the king today and yet we have barely scratched the surface.


Maybe! Maybe auto technologies like antilock brakes and airbags have gone the distance from very expensive to cost-minimized without any decrease in performance. I think battery technology is a hard problem, but it will be solved. Grid energy is another tough issue, but engineers are good at solving these issues.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:54 am

If they don't sit on their asses, they can be like China.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taehg2rZBpY
 
JJJ
Posts: 4402
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:50 am

LCDFlight wrote:
pune wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

I don’t think hybrids are over. EVs have insufficient range/refueling performance and cost way too much to manufacture. They will make sense… someday. For me, nothing beats a Toyota Hybrid if you are talking about practical low emission transportation. An EV practically cannot be an UBER car or a police car. Yet hybrid is a perfect solution TODAY for that market.

I like new technologies when they are cheap, dependable and durable. EV are not in my wheelhouse right now. I am looking 10-15 years out before they become compelling.


You might have to change your statement 2-3 years down the line. It is costing too much to manufacture because of supply chain issues and that is down to covid. If you make the supply chains more robust and invest in it, you won't have problems. Even the price of energy in part is due to inefficient peaker plants and gas plants being shut during the pandemic and most of them decided to stay shut. I read in the news either yesterday or today that the EU is making the energy policy so that energy pricing from renewables would be separated from natural gas and others.As a result, sooner rather than later, more money would flow into renewables, both in sales as well as in R&D investment. which will further bring pricing down. Multi-junction solar cells are already making solar the king today and yet we have barely scratched the surface.


Maybe! Maybe auto technologies like antilock brakes and airbags have gone the distance from very expensive to cost-minimized without any decrease in performance. I think battery technology is a hard problem, but it will be solved. Grid energy is another tough issue, but engineers are good at solving these issues.


Everyone is acting as if batteries are ripe for major breakthroughs and they're not. Batteries are a very mature technology and companies are fiddling on what compromises to make to make them work better for the auto market.

There will be improvements, but incremental rather than revolutionary.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:43 am

They don't have to be revolutionary, if they are incremental are as ease of use as ICE cars is, that argument is taken care of i.e. it takes too long a time to charge. There would of course will be some, who will continue to crib about something or the other. But then you can't please everybody and don't need to. And there is enough incentive at least in China to fix and improve on the technology as much as they can. They are poised over to take as much market share as they have done in international shipping and elsewhere.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8979
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:33 am

The Government of British Columbia has broken ground on the world's largest hydrogen refuelling station set to open in early 2024 with an initial capacity of 4 bays being able to fuel 24 heavy duty trucks in a single hour:

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/386173 ... -s-largest

:thumbsup:
 
JJJ
Posts: 4402
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:31 am

pune wrote:
They don't have to be revolutionary, if they are incremental are as ease of use as ICE cars is, that argument is taken care of i.e. it takes too long a time to charge. There would of course will be some, who will continue to crib about something or the other. But then you can't please everybody and don't need to. And there is enough incentive at least in China to fix and improve on the technology as much as they can. They are poised over to take as much market share as they have done in international shipping and elsewhere.


They have to be revolutionary if at some point they want to get rid of subsidies.

But the chosen path is different: just ban ICE vehicles because it can't be done. Not in the foreseeable future.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:56 pm

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
They don't have to be revolutionary, if they are incremental are as ease of use as ICE cars is, that argument is taken care of i.e. it takes too long a time to charge. There would of course will be some, who will continue to crib about something or the other. But then you can't please everybody and don't need to. And there is enough incentive at least in China to fix and improve on the technology as much as they can. They are poised over to take as much market share as they have done in international shipping and elsewhere.


They have to be revolutionary if at some point they want to get rid of subsidies.

But the chosen path is different: just ban ICE vehicles because it can't be done. Not in the foreseeable future.


If you actually read up on your history, you will see that who kept batteries from being commercially exploited for over 50 years, the same ICE companies, specifically GM (General Motors). When they made EV-1 they knew if people started using these, nobody in their right mind would use ICE vehicles hence they got it crushed. So much selfishness, and even now they are delaying because they are corrupt themselves. They are o.k. with giving wealth to petrostates and whatever the consequences of global warming/climate change happening.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4402
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:13 am

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
They don't have to be revolutionary, if they are incremental are as ease of use as ICE cars is, that argument is taken care of i.e. it takes too long a time to charge. There would of course will be some, who will continue to crib about something or the other. But then you can't please everybody and don't need to. And there is enough incentive at least in China to fix and improve on the technology as much as they can. They are poised over to take as much market share as they have done in international shipping and elsewhere.


They have to be revolutionary if at some point they want to get rid of subsidies.

But the chosen path is different: just ban ICE vehicles because it can't be done. Not in the foreseeable future.


If you actually read up on your history, you will see that who kept batteries from being commercially exploited for over 50 years, the same ICE companies, specifically GM (General Motors). When they made EV-1 they knew if people started using these, nobody in their right mind would use ICE vehicles hence they got it crushed. So much selfishness, and even now they are delaying because they are corrupt themselves. They are o.k. with giving wealth to petrostates and whatever the consequences of global warming/climate change happening.


EVs are so good they need to be propped up by subsides and special tax treatment.

But sure, it's all a conspiracy.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:57 pm

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They have to be revolutionary if at some point they want to get rid of subsidies.

But the chosen path is different: just ban ICE vehicles because it can't be done. Not in the foreseeable future.


If you actually read up on your history, you will see that who kept batteries from being commercially exploited for over 50 years, the same ICE companies, specifically GM (General Motors). When they made EV-1 they knew if people started using these, nobody in their right mind would use ICE vehicles hence they got it crushed. So much selfishness, and even now they are delaying because they are corrupt themselves. They are o.k. with giving wealth to petrostates and whatever the consequences of global warming/climate change happening.


EVs are so good they need to be propped up by subsides and special tax treatment.

But sure, it's all a conspiracy.


My dear friend, ICE vehicles have been running on subsidies for more than a century, don't see you making any arguments about that.

https://short-facts.com/how-much-do-oil ... subsidies/

Also see https://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/upl ... ubsidies(2).pdf

And what I shared about GM is all out in the open. It is public knowledge. Perhaps you might try to look up about it.
Last edited by pune on Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5655
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:04 pm

Energy in general is tied up with politics and subsidies. Kind of like farming. Except these two historically deny their raid on tax money as a subsidy.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4402
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:22 pm

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:

If you actually read up on your history, you will see that who kept batteries from being commercially exploited for over 50 years, the same ICE companies, specifically GM (General Motors). When they made EV-1 they knew if people started using these, nobody in their right mind would use ICE vehicles hence they got it crushed. So much selfishness, and even now they are delaying because they are corrupt themselves. They are o.k. with giving wealth to petrostates and whatever the consequences of global warming/climate change happening.


EVs are so good they need to be propped up by subsides and special tax treatment.

But sure, it's all a conspiracy.


My dear friend, ICE vehicles have been running on subsidies for more than a century, don't see you making any arguments about that.

https://short-facts.com/how-much-do-oil ... subsidies/

Also see https://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/upl ... ubsidies(2).pdf

And what I shared about GM is all out in the open. It is public knowledge. Perhaps you might try to look up about it.


Not a blip on those documents about ICE vehicles, but rather oil & gas as an all-encompassing blob. That's a huge, huge can of worms.

Electric vehicles, for starters do benefit from those oil & gas subsidies you just mentioned. Manufacturing an EV is energy intensive, uses tons of oil-derived plastics & polymers.... not to mention the electricity used to run those cars. How would those wonderful Chinese EVs reach the shores of the world without dirty polluting boats to carry them? Would they even have enough to eat without those oil&gas derived fertilizers?

Burning oil in an engine one of the final steps of a very long chain, with a lot of branching in the middle. Directly or indirectly it's involved in just about everything we do on a daily basis.

Energy security has been a major concern since the invention of the steam machine. It's not like that by chance or pure inertia.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14449
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:22 am

cpd wrote:
EVs here in my country are no longer a rarity, they are quite common.

Bigger range and larger batteries have made them realistic for a lot of people. By contrast the only hydrogen car sold here is just a trial/experiment and there is hardly any infrastructure.

And the Toyota drives like a ship in comparison.


I took a Toyota Mirai Taxi in Trondheim a few weeks ago, it was quiet, comfortable and I'm surprised Toyota haven't branded them as a Lexus. The owner/driver bought it to replace a Model S.

I've noted a few Mirai taxis in Oslo and Stavanger.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8979
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:29 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I took a Toyota Mirai Taxi in Trondheim a few weeks ago, it was quiet, comfortable and I'm surprised Toyota haven't branded them as a Lexus. The owner/driver bought it to replace a Model S.

I've noted a few Mirai taxis in Oslo and Stavanger.

The 2022 Mirai that is sold in Canada is a pretty good looking car, at least compared to the previous generation which just looked like a Prius Prime with some a bad botox session. Toyota definitely upped the game with the new model in both exterior and interior design and features.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:20 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I took a Toyota Mirai Taxi in Trondheim a few weeks ago, it was quiet, comfortable and I'm surprised Toyota haven't branded them as a Lexus. The owner/driver bought it to replace a Model S.

I've noted a few Mirai taxis in Oslo and Stavanger.

The 2022 Mirai that is sold in Canada is a pretty good looking car, at least compared to the previous generation which just looked like a Prius Prime with some a bad botox session. Toyota definitely upped the game with the new model in both exterior and interior design and features.


Toyota has a long way to go. I would take them seriously when like the Chinese they are having EV's and not hybrids. China is miles ahead in this game. 60+ companies that you and I haven't even heard of. And most of them have been selling in China like hotcakes.

Look at https://www.youtube.com/c/ChinaDriven

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