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pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:08 pm

The problem with the combustion engine even after 100 years of subsidy is that they still have to cheat, and they get caught time and again. But that is ok, as that is 'business'. And in business, it is ok to lie and cheat your customers, at least that's what majority of people think on this fora.

https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/other/tw ... r-AA11D4lv

Guessing this is better, EPA shouldn't have fined the automaker, after all they are into 'business'

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/busin ... 428618002/

The hypocrisy is just telling :(
 
JJJ
Posts: 4512
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:58 pm

pune wrote:

Guessing this is better, EPA shouldn't have fined the automaker, after all they are into 'business'

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/busin ... 428618002/

The hypocrisy is just telling :(


It's not like the poster boy of EVs is doing any better.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... -fined-epa
 
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Aesma
Posts: 16446
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:43 pm

Toyota does sell a BEV now, the bZ4X : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_bZ4X

They had no choice if they wanted to stay relevant.
 
trex8
Posts: 5911
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pm

M564038 wrote:
VW to end fossil car sales in Norway next year.

https://dinside.dagbladet.no/motor/drop ... r/76997484

Hydrogen came and went a few years ago, BTW, I don’t know why anyone’s still wastibg their time on fantasizing about it.


Id like some of that fantasy euros or yen

EU to invest 550 billion euros, Japanese put US$800 million last year

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariannele ... addba513d7

with 5 billion just recently
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/eu-appr ... jects.html

Japanese have always been big into H2 and continue
https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473- ... %20million)%20in%20fiscal%202021.

The big "enlightened" 3 oil companies, Shell, Total , BP have plans to keep drilling in the future, just it will mostly be for storing hydrogen and the much smaller, than todays amounts of oil , for the petrochemical industry.

Battery electric will work great for personal cars, local delivery trucks, your future equivalent of a Cessna 150. I have an EV love it. Anything else will need to go to fuel cells and actual hydrogen.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:44 pm

Very interesting and informative, does literally take the gas out of many people's thoughts -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlOCS95Jvjc

Just to be very short, it would never be used to either power cars or heat homes, the real potential is very small, very niche, however others might like to paint it.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 10987
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:28 pm

pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I took a Toyota Mirai Taxi in Trondheim a few weeks ago, it was quiet, comfortable and I'm surprised Toyota haven't branded them as a Lexus. The owner/driver bought it to replace a Model S.

I've noted a few Mirai taxis in Oslo and Stavanger.

The 2022 Mirai that is sold in Canada is a pretty good looking car, at least compared to the previous generation which just looked like a Prius Prime with some a bad botox session. Toyota definitely upped the game with the new model in both exterior and interior design and features.


Toyota has a long way to go. I would take them seriously when like the Chinese they are having EV's and not hybrids. China is miles ahead in this game. 60+ companies that you and I haven't even heard of. And most of them have been selling in China like hotcakes.

Look at https://www.youtube.com/c/ChinaDriven


How many would meet US or EU motor vehicle standards?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
The 2022 Mirai that is sold in Canada is a pretty good looking car, at least compared to the previous generation which just looked like a Prius Prime with some a bad botox session. Toyota definitely upped the game with the new model in both exterior and interior design and features.


Toyota has a long way to go. I would take them seriously when like the Chinese they are having EV's and not hybrids. China is miles ahead in this game. 60+ companies that you and I haven't even heard of. And most of them have been selling in China like hotcakes.

Look at https://www.youtube.com/c/ChinaDriven


How many would meet US or EU motor vehicle standards?


All of them that are imported to the EU meet EU standards. In Norway we have NIO, BYD, Hongqi, MG, Polestar (Swedish designed built in China), XPeng.

The Chinese are ahead of the curve on EV’s, I’d say they are well ahead of everyone except Tesla, who companies like NIO and XPeng are rapidly catching.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:24 am

trex8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
VW to end fossil car sales in Norway next year.

https://dinside.dagbladet.no/motor/drop ... r/76997484

Hydrogen came and went a few years ago, BTW, I don’t know why anyone’s still wastibg their time on fantasizing about it.


Id like some of that fantasy euros or yen

EU to invest 550 billion euros, Japanese put US$800 million last year

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariannele ... addba513d7

with 5 billion just recently
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/eu-appr ... jects.html

Japanese have always been big into H2 and continue
https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473- ... %20million)%20in%20fiscal%202021.

The big "enlightened" 3 oil companies, Shell, Total , BP have plans to keep drilling in the future, just it will mostly be for storing hydrogen and the much smaller, than todays amounts of oil , for the petrochemical industry.

Battery electric will work great for personal cars, local delivery trucks, your future equivalent of a Cessna 150. I have an EV love it. Anything else will need to go to fuel cells and actual hydrogen.


Korea is also massively investing in Hydrogen, I was at a shipyard workshop last week, most of the floating wind farms that are being developed are going to be used for manufacturing green hydrogen. 94% of Koreas energy is imported, Japan and China have similar numbers, turning to hydrogen means they won’t need to rely on imported energy in the future.

There’s very little EV infrastructure in Korea, I only saw a single charging station in Busan, whereas in Norway they are everywhere, on the other hand hydrogen filling stations are being built throughout the country.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:39 am

Kiwirob wrote:
trex8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
VW to end fossil car sales in Norway next year.

https://dinside.dagbladet.no/motor/drop ... r/76997484

Hydrogen came and went a few years ago, BTW, I don’t know why anyone’s still wastibg their time on fantasizing about it.


Id like some of that fantasy euros or yen

EU to invest 550 billion euros, Japanese put US$800 million last year

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariannele ... addba513d7

with 5 billion just recently
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/eu-appr ... jects.html

Japanese have always been big into H2 and continue
https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473- ... %20million)%20in%20fiscal%202021.

The big "enlightened" 3 oil companies, Shell, Total , BP have plans to keep drilling in the future, just it will mostly be for storing hydrogen and the much smaller, than todays amounts of oil , for the petrochemical industry.

Battery electric will work great for personal cars, local delivery trucks, your future equivalent of a Cessna 150. I have an EV love it. Anything else will need to go to fuel cells and actual hydrogen.


Korea is also massively investing in Hydrogen, I was at a shipyard workshop last week, most of the floating wind farms that are being developed are going to be used for manufacturing green hydrogen. 94% of Koreas energy is imported, Japan and China have similar numbers, turning to hydrogen means they won’t need to rely on imported energy in the future.

There’s very little EV infrastructure in Korea, I only saw a single charging station in Busan, whereas in Norway they are everywhere, on the other hand hydrogen filling stations are being built throughout the country.


Yes, both South Korea and Japan are keenly aware that, as major industrial countries, they lack any traditional energy sources. Just look at their focus on nuclear power. They know they are one bad blockade away from being in the dark. So they are way into technology. They need alliance partners to keep the seas open (such as the US). This is a big issue for them, in theory.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14689
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:45 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
trex8 wrote:

Id like some of that fantasy euros or yen

EU to invest 550 billion euros, Japanese put US$800 million last year

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariannele ... addba513d7

with 5 billion just recently
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/eu-appr ... jects.html

Japanese have always been big into H2 and continue
https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473- ... %20million)%20in%20fiscal%202021.

The big "enlightened" 3 oil companies, Shell, Total , BP have plans to keep drilling in the future, just it will mostly be for storing hydrogen and the much smaller, than todays amounts of oil , for the petrochemical industry.

Battery electric will work great for personal cars, local delivery trucks, your future equivalent of a Cessna 150. I have an EV love it. Anything else will need to go to fuel cells and actual hydrogen.


Korea is also massively investing in Hydrogen, I was at a shipyard workshop last week, most of the floating wind farms that are being developed are going to be used for manufacturing green hydrogen. 94% of Koreas energy is imported, Japan and China have similar numbers, turning to hydrogen means they won’t need to rely on imported energy in the future.

There’s very little EV infrastructure in Korea, I only saw a single charging station in Busan, whereas in Norway they are everywhere, on the other hand hydrogen filling stations are being built throughout the country.


Yes, both South Korea and Japan are keenly aware that, as major industrial countries, they lack any traditional energy sources. Just look at their focus on nuclear power. They know they are one bad blockade away from being in the dark. So they are way into technology. They need alliance partners to keep the seas open (such as the US). This is a big issue for them, in theory.


Have the seas ever been closed?
 
LCDFlight
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:02 am

Kiwirob wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Korea is also massively investing in Hydrogen, I was at a shipyard workshop last week, most of the floating wind farms that are being developed are going to be used for manufacturing green hydrogen. 94% of Koreas energy is imported, Japan and China have similar numbers, turning to hydrogen means they won’t need to rely on imported energy in the future.

There’s very little EV infrastructure in Korea, I only saw a single charging station in Busan, whereas in Norway they are everywhere, on the other hand hydrogen filling stations are being built throughout the country.


Yes, both South Korea and Japan are keenly aware that, as major industrial countries, they lack any traditional energy sources. Just look at their focus on nuclear power. They know they are one bad blockade away from being in the dark. So they are way into technology. They need alliance partners to keep the seas open (such as the US). This is a big issue for them, in theory.


Have the seas ever been closed?


As yet, the US Navy has not been disabled post WWII. But if they are, then yeah. The Pacific will be permission only. It will depend on your CCP social credit score.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14689
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:14 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Yes, both South Korea and Japan are keenly aware that, as major industrial countries, they lack any traditional energy sources. Just look at their focus on nuclear power. They know they are one bad blockade away from being in the dark. So they are way into technology. They need alliance partners to keep the seas open (such as the US). This is a big issue for them, in theory.


Have the seas ever been closed?


As yet, the US Navy has not been disabled post WWII. But if they are, then yeah. The Pacific will be permission only. It will depend on your CCP social credit score.


People like you make me laugh, maybe you should look at a map.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:35 am

Agree with Kiwirob, the Chinese have been upping the game and legacy auto doesn't have any answers yet :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sTLEAUhwlM

Just imagine the above happening in all markets. If the same thing happens in EU or the U.S. the present behemoths will be simply wiped out. They won't have a leg to stand on. If you could part-upgrade your cars, you would go to the same company and buy that part from $1000 to 1.5k rather than buying a new car that doesn't make sense. And in doing so, get all upgrades and updates to the system. I do hope this gets replicated everywhere as its needed and is more efficient and cheaper for the customers.

And comments to the video of other people are telling what is happening in China and elsewhere. Says quite a lot.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 9387
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:32 am

pune wrote:
Agree with Kiwirob, the Chinese have been upping the game and legacy auto doesn't have any answers yet :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sTLEAUhwlM

Just imagine the above happening in all markets. If the same thing happens in EU or the U.S. the present behemoths will be simply wiped out. They won't have a leg to stand on. If you could part-upgrade your cars, you would go to the same company and buy that part from $1000 to 1.5k rather than buying a new car that doesn't make sense. And in doing so, get all upgrades and updates to the system. I do hope this gets replicated everywhere as its needed and is more efficient and cheaper for the customers.

And comments to the video of other people are telling what is happening in China and elsewhere. Says quite a lot.

The legacies aren't going anywhere, no need to worry about that - sorry to burst your bubble :wave:
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:13 pm

They are not my bubbles to burst, they are yours, especially with bankruptcies looming. Sure, you didn't even look at the video.
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:15 pm

pune wrote:
They are not my bubbles to burst, they are yours, especially with bankruptcies looming. Sure, you didn't even look at the video.


Less than one minute into the video and the man is already taking about stock price.

Tells you a lot about the intended audience and where the analysis comes from.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:53 pm

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
They are not my bubbles to burst, they are yours, especially with bankruptcies looming. Sure, you didn't even look at the video.


Less than one minute into the video and the man is already taking about stock price.

Tells you a lot about the intended audience and where the analysis comes from.


Stock prices indicate how the markets look at the company, now you could argue that it has not been priced right or whatever and that is your right. What is interesting however is that there is and was no comment as to how 2% compares to 20% that Tesla makes. Also no comment as to how and why Renault is dumping the Nissan shares. If non-answers are your thing, they are your thing, no comment on that.

Although they had started dumping Nissan a while back, it's just now that the scale has widened.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 022-04-25/

Notice the date. And the gentleman is quite right in saying that the Japanese will back Toyota rather than Nissan. It is just not business but also politics at play there.
 
JJJ
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:59 pm

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
They are not my bubbles to burst, they are yours, especially with bankruptcies looming. Sure, you didn't even look at the video.


Less than one minute into the video and the man is already taking about stock price.

Tells you a lot about the intended audience and where the analysis comes from.


Stock prices indicate how the markets look at the company, now you could argue that it has not been priced right or whatever and that is your right. What is interesting however is that there is and was no comment as to how 2% compares to 20% that Tesla makes. Also no comment as to how and why Renault is dumping the Nissan shares. If non-answers are your thing, they are your thing, no comment on that.


Because I stopped watching the moment it went on to stock price.

And after seeing that 2/3 or more of the guys channel is shilling for Tesla stock price with clickbaity titles.

If you want to talk about Nissan start with internal politics, with Ghosn rift and the still lingering anger at the smug French who rescued them from bankruptcy 20 years ago.
 
ACDC8
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:56 pm

pune wrote:
They are not my bubbles to burst, they are yours, especially with bankruptcies looming. Sure, you didn't even look at the video.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - that and Scotty Kilmer's "Every car company other than Toyota is going out of business" rhetoric - blah, blah, blah.

As far as your video goes, well, Sam Evans, no bias there.
pune wrote:
Stock prices indicate how the markets look at the company,

And they go up and they go down and they go up and they go down. By your logic, the legacies would have been out of business decades ago.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:28 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
They are not my bubbles to burst, they are yours, especially with bankruptcies looming. Sure, you didn't even look at the video.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - that and Scotty Kilmer's "Every car company other than Toyota is going out of business" rhetoric - blah, blah, blah.

As far as your video goes, well, Sam Evans, no bias there.
pune wrote:
Stock prices indicate how the markets look at the company,

And they go up and they go down and they go up and they go down. By your logic, the legacies would have been out of business decades ago.


That is the reason why GM actually crushed EV1

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/let-gm-g ... i_b_181915

This is public domain knowledge. I am sure even the above is bias to you even though each and every bit in that is known and has been fact-checked multiple times.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 9387
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:31 am

pune wrote:

That is the reason why GM actually crushed EV1

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/let-gm-g ... i_b_181915

This is public domain knowledge. I am sure even the above is bias to you even though each and every bit in that is known and has been fact-checked multiple times.

The most important part of your article:

"In our opinion"


And seeing that The Huff Post is a left leading publication, of course their "opinion" is going to be very obvious.

The EV1 was the wrong car at the wrong time - nothing more, nothing less.

GM should have been gone long ago, they've had one of the weakest car segments for the last 20+ years, but they're still around because they sell a lot of trucks, and those trucks will continue to be sold for a long time yet.
 
Noshow
Posts: 3949
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:27 pm

I think for cars we should go lightweight instead of super complex and heavy. It feels like a joke to see all those super heavy and complex electrical battery SUVs proudly being promoted to be "green" while very small cars with fuel burning engines can be made truly lightweight, efficient and acceptable clean with exhaust cleaning and even cleaner with more chemistry in the trunk and investment.

Step one to save the world would be limiting the max speed of cars. Step two privileges for more than one occupant on board including shared rides. Step three to tax cars by fuel consumption, weight or materials used.

Batteries need all those rare earths imported from slave mines, all the copper and electrical power that gets mostly lost between power stations and being transformed up and down and then stored in some ageing, limited cycles battery.

I know many people that live in apartments within cities that could never find a charger anywhere as they need to park wherever they can. If everybody is required to have an electrical car by law these people and the ones that can not afford to buy a new car anytime are excluded from individual transportation? Old cars should remain usable.

And concerning hydrogen: How can it be made with cheap enough energy to remain price competitive? Where would all the energy needed come from if it has to be "green"?
 
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Aesma
Posts: 16446
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
trex8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
VW to end fossil car sales in Norway next year.

https://dinside.dagbladet.no/motor/drop ... r/76997484

Hydrogen came and went a few years ago, BTW, I don’t know why anyone’s still wastibg their time on fantasizing about it.


Id like some of that fantasy euros or yen

EU to invest 550 billion euros, Japanese put US$800 million last year

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariannele ... addba513d7

with 5 billion just recently
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/eu-appr ... jects.html

Japanese have always been big into H2 and continue
https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473- ... %20million)%20in%20fiscal%202021.

The big "enlightened" 3 oil companies, Shell, Total , BP have plans to keep drilling in the future, just it will mostly be for storing hydrogen and the much smaller, than todays amounts of oil , for the petrochemical industry.

Battery electric will work great for personal cars, local delivery trucks, your future equivalent of a Cessna 150. I have an EV love it. Anything else will need to go to fuel cells and actual hydrogen.


Korea is also massively investing in Hydrogen, I was at a shipyard workshop last week, most of the floating wind farms that are being developed are going to be used for manufacturing green hydrogen. 94% of Koreas energy is imported, Japan and China have similar numbers, turning to hydrogen means they won’t need to rely on imported energy in the future.

There’s very little EV infrastructure in Korea, I only saw a single charging station in Busan, whereas in Norway they are everywhere, on the other hand hydrogen filling stations are being built throughout the country.


Turning to hydrogen will do that only if they make gigantic amounts of it. Meaning nuclear power plants dedicated to it. With that much electricity production, using it all to make hydrogen is pure nonsense and wasteful, when for plenty of uses electricity is better (smelting, cars, etc.).

South Korea is a small country, there shouldn't be any issue with range anxiety and current EV tech, let along future EV tech.
 
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QF7
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:21 pm

I’m no physicist or chemist but two things you can say about hydrogen is that it exists in infinite quantities and that when it burns to produce energy it does so completely cleanly.

Human beings have solved many problems; I think this one is within reach as well.
 
cpd
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:29 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
Agree with Kiwirob, the Chinese have been upping the game and legacy auto doesn't have any answers yet :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sTLEAUhwlM

Just imagine the above happening in all markets. If the same thing happens in EU or the U.S. the present behemoths will be simply wiped out. They won't have a leg to stand on. If you could part-upgrade your cars, you would go to the same company and buy that part from $1000 to 1.5k rather than buying a new car that doesn't make sense. And in doing so, get all upgrades and updates to the system. I do hope this gets replicated everywhere as its needed and is more efficient and cheaper for the customers.

And comments to the video of other people are telling what is happening in China and elsewhere. Says quite a lot.

The legacies aren't going anywhere, no need to worry about that - sorry to burst your bubble :wave:


Chinese upping the game, yes, we will all just drive our new Chinese electric car into the station where it will get a battery swap.

Yeah, I don’t think that’s realistic. (One of the Chinese electric cars has that). It also has up to 150kwh battery size but the charge time is slower than what is offered by “legacy” manufacturers.

Anyhow this doom and gloom argument against legacy manufacturers seems to be the same copy and paste used across the web. The Tesla crowd uses it against their opponents too.

The best car that is cleanest and best for the environment is the one you don’t buy unless you really need it.

Maybe we need to be thinking, do we really need a car at all? Is it absolutely necessary.

Or is it just the prestige trophy to park on the driveway to show the neighbours that you’ve made it in life?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:28 am

The best car is the one that meets your transportation needs, full stop. You can’t live in the developed West, outside of major cities, without a car. Mine gets lots of use, is almost never seen in a trophy role. My neighbors, 200 yards away, probably wouldn’t know it.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:57 am

I think China does have an advantage, it's making lots of batteries. Including for Tesla. And it has access to a lot of the materials.

I wonder if the reason they've not invaded Europe (and the US) yet isn't a political calculation by XI, because if that happens, I expect a strong backlash, with protectionist measures. One of the Chinese brands is already planning a plant in the EU, that isn't a coincidence.

Noshow wrote:
I know many people that live in apartments within cities that could never find a charger anywhere as they need to park wherever they can. If everybody is required to have an electrical car by law these people and the ones that can not afford to buy a new car anytime are excluded from individual transportation? Old cars should remain usable.


I have a company car, with a gas card. My boss just told me I need to order a new one as this one will be 3 years old soon. I expected the lease to be extended as it has very low mileage (thanks to COVID, and now lots of teleworking).

A colleague who got his car a bit before me has already gotten the website link to order his new car, and told me the choice is between a Peugeot e-208 and a Peugeot e-208. Yeah, there is no choice. I thought I would get an hybrid.

Another colleague already has the e-208, it's quite nice, I like the interior, it's more powerful than the gas cars we get, and there is no transmission so that's also an advantage. It's relatively loaded compared to our more basic usual trim (manual aircon, screen with android auto, basic cruise control, and that's it).

However the range isn't great. And we can't charge at home, because there is no way to make the company pay for it. So we need to charge at work, or at a select number of fast charging stations. For some of my colleagues who work at the company HQ, it works out OK, there are hundreds of chargers there. I work close to there but at another location, and there are 8 chargers (4 are brand new) for something like 100 parking spots.

I don't want to spend an hour a week sat at a fast charger either...

My company sells lots of technological stuff, in fact we install EV charging stations for public entities, I find it ridiculous nobody figured out how to install them for employees, with a way for the company to pay for the electricity.
 
cpd
Posts: 7714
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:17 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The best car is the one that meets your transportation needs, full stop. You can’t live in the developed West, outside of major cities, without a car. Mine gets lots of use, is almost never seen in a trophy role. My neighbors, 200 yards away, probably wouldn’t know it.


Yours is a valid case, but in my huge sprawling city there is decent public transport in a lot of areas, so most trips with a car can be avoided.

So the people nearby me going to work in the same area have no need to spend 40 minutes in peak hour traffic jam doing average 25km/h when a bus (which has stops nearby) has dedicated lanes and is faster. It's always someone with an X5, X6 or a Merc GLE. :roll:
 
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c933103
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:49 am

There are already many Chinese EV export to Japan, Korea, America, especially on commercial front for vehicles like buses. Local manufacturere in these countries haven't really been able to response effectively yet.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:35 am

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
trex8 wrote:

Id like some of that fantasy euros or yen

EU to invest 550 billion euros, Japanese put US$800 million last year

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariannele ... addba513d7

with 5 billion just recently
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/eu-appr ... jects.html

Japanese have always been big into H2 and continue
https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473- ... %20million)%20in%20fiscal%202021.

The big "enlightened" 3 oil companies, Shell, Total , BP have plans to keep drilling in the future, just it will mostly be for storing hydrogen and the much smaller, than todays amounts of oil , for the petrochemical industry.

Battery electric will work great for personal cars, local delivery trucks, your future equivalent of a Cessna 150. I have an EV love it. Anything else will need to go to fuel cells and actual hydrogen.


Korea is also massively investing in Hydrogen, I was at a shipyard workshop last week, most of the floating wind farms that are being developed are going to be used for manufacturing green hydrogen. 94% of Koreas energy is imported, Japan and China have similar numbers, turning to hydrogen means they won’t need to rely on imported energy in the future.

There’s very little EV infrastructure in Korea, I only saw a single charging station in Busan, whereas in Norway they are everywhere, on the other hand hydrogen filling stations are being built throughout the country.


Turning to hydrogen will do that only if they make gigantic amounts of it. Meaning nuclear power plants dedicated to it. With that much electricity production, using it all to make hydrogen is pure nonsense and wasteful, when for plenty of uses electricity is better (smelting, cars, etc.).

South Korea is a small country, there shouldn't be any issue with range anxiety and current EV tech, let along future EV tech.


The South Koreans are planning to built wind farms which will be dedicated to producing energy to make green hydrogen. They want to make gigantic amounts of it, so do the Japanese and Chinese.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:11 am

Noshow wrote:

I know many people that live in apartments within cities that could never find a charger anywhere as they need to park wherever they can. If everybody is required to have an electrical car by law these people and the ones that can not afford to buy a new car anytime are excluded from individual transportation? Old cars should remain usable.

And concerning hydrogen: How can it be made with cheap enough energy to remain price competitive? Where would all the energy needed come from if it has to be "green"?


Most apartment buildings around here have an underground garage, each apartment has a parking bay, its easy to install a charger in the parking bay, most new buildings will have these included, retrofitting them to older buildings is easy. If your building doesn't have parking then that's an issue, but you might have offsite parking near by which could also be fitted with a charger.

Green energy can come from hydro, solar or wind, some countries like South Korea will be building windfarms that will only be used to produce green hydrogen.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:30 am

Aesma wrote:
I think China does have an advantage, it's making lots of batteries. Including for Tesla. And it has access to a lot of the materials.

I wonder if the reason they've not invaded Europe (and the US) yet isn't a political calculation by XI, because if that happens, I expect a strong backlash, with protectionist measures. One of the Chinese brands is already planning a plant in the EU, that isn't a coincidence.


In Norway the Chinese brands are already established and competing against Tesla and the Europeans. BYD, MG NIO, XPeng, Hongqi are all represented in Norway.

With the Norwegian govts ill thought out 25% tax on new EV's over 500k nok companies like BYD and MG will be the winners, they are able to build family sized vehicles that will fit under this limit, most family sized German vehicle are over this limit.
 
Noshow
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:33 am

Most apartment buildings around here have an underground garage, each apartment has a parking bay, its easy to install a charger in the parking bay, most new buildings will have these included, retrofitting them to older buildings is easy. If your building doesn't have parking then that's an issue, but you might have offsite parking near by which could also be fitted with a charger.

Around here they don't.
My point is if battery cars are meant to become mass relevant we need a solution for the charging issue first. At not much range you need to charge a lot. In Germany electric car sales go down already many early adopters seem to sell their cars and move back to fuel burners because of the hassle in daily life. Charging has become much more expensive and the ratio of chargers per car has deteriorated. Switzerland even debates not letting driving electrical cars at certain times as they consume electric energy that is needed elsewhere with priority.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:11 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Most apartment buildings around here have an underground garage, each apartment has a parking bay, its easy to install a charger in the parking bay, most new buildings will have these included, retrofitting them to older buildings is easy. If your building doesn't have parking then that's an issue, but you might have offsite parking near by which could also be fitted with a charger.

Green energy can come from hydro, solar or wind, some countries like South Korea will be building windfarms that will only be used to produce green hydrogen.

Many apartment buildings where I live do not allow car charging in the covered parkades let alone installation of a charger, either because the buildings infrastructure cannot support them or because of insurance purposes (fire hazard). Doesn't matter how many stats about electrical fires or any building will be able to support a charging network one brings up, those are the rules in many buildings here and they won't be changing anytime soon.
Kiwirob wrote:
In Norway the Chinese brands are already established and competing against Tesla and the Europeans. BYD, MG NIO, XPeng, Hongqi are all represented in Norway.

Europe has always been more diverse with car brands than North America.

And to piss off the EV cultists even more - Honda will be offering a plug in hybrid CRV in 2024, but with a hydrogen engine and more and more manufacturers are jumping on the hydrogen bandwagon :thumbsup:
 
cpd
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:38 am

ACDC8 wrote:
And to piss off the EV cultists even more - Honda will be offering a plug in hybrid CRV in 2024, but with a hydrogen engine and more and more manufacturers are jumping on the hydrogen bandwagon :thumbsup:


It could be said they are doing that because their only electric option is quite poor. Cute looking car, but terrible range and not much space.

Hydrogen? Where to fill it up? In my fossil fuel loving, anti-EV country there is absolutely no hydrogen infrastructure at all. It simply doesn't exist. Toyota brought out the Mirai as a trial and was using a particular company to provide the hydrogen. Normal buyers weren't able to get the cars at all.

Our only options are normal ICE cars, EV and plugin hybrids. And Honda isn't exactly the leader for plugin-hybrids either.

Honda really doesn't look competitive anymore and in my country Honda sales have collapsed massively due to marketing and bad pricing decisions. The hybrid NSX? I haven't seen a single one, ever - and I live in an area of expensive McLarens, Ferraris, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, etc.

My country will probably put in tariffs on hydrogen vehicles if ever they arrive, further to annoy the hydrogen cultists. Just as we put kilometre charges on electric cars.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:49 am

cpd wrote:
It could be said they are doing that because their only electric option is quite poor.

It could be said that they are doing that because hydrogen is a viable alternative.
cpd wrote:
Cute looking car, but terrible range and not much space.

Might be a cute looking car, but its also the second best selling small SUV after the RAV4. As far as range, the hydrogen range is 600kms, pretty much in line with the ICE power plant and only requires a 5 minute fuel.
cpd wrote:
Hydrogen? Where to fill it up? In my fossil fuel loving, anti-EV country there is absolutely no hydrogen infrastructure at all. It simply doesn't exist.

Hydrogen infrastructure is coming, just like EV infrastructure. Some places it'll be faster than others. Where I live, our Provincial Government is putting the pedal to the metal ramping up hydrogen infrastructure. It will be a more popular option in North American than Europe given our archaic and fragile electrical infrastructure and rural distances and amenities, especially for long haul trucking.
cpd wrote:
Toyota brought out the Mirai as a trial and was using a particular company to provide the hydrogen. Normal buyers weren't able to get the cars at all.

Lots of Mirai's where I live.
cpd wrote:
Our only options are normal ICE cars, EV and plugin hybrids. And Honda isn't exactly the leader for plugin-hybrids either.

Toyota has them beat on that, but Honda will catch up just as other manufactures go. ICE driven cars are a long way from being extinct, so Honda and other manufacturers still have time to transition to other forms of energy.

cpd wrote:
Honda really doesn't look competitive anymore and in my country Honda sales have collapsed massively due to marketing and bad pricing decisions. The hybrid NSX? I haven't seen a single one, ever - and I live in an area of expensive McLarens, Ferraris, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, etc.

The Civic is still one of the best selling cars where I live and as I pointed out, the CRV is the second best selling small SUV. As far as the hybrid NSX goes, I don't know if I've seen one or not, but I've probably only seen a couple of NSXs regardless, at least compared to the sea of McLaren's, Ferrari's, Lambo's, RR's, Bugatti's, Bentley's, Maybach's I see on the daily where I live.
cpd wrote:
My country will probably put in tariffs on hydrogen vehicles if ever they arrive, further to annoy the hydrogen cultists. Just as we put kilometre charges on electric cars.

We get rebates, not tariffs on both EV and hydrogen.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:32 am

As far as hybrids go, never thought I'd say this - but the '23 Prius is a pretty good looking car. If I was in the market for a hybrid, I would put it on my list. But alas, I'm sticking with my ordered '23 GTI - comes standard with a smile on my face every time I row my own gears :thumbsup:
 
cpd
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:47 am

ACDC8 wrote:
We get rebates, not tariffs on both EV and hydrogen.


We don’t let Soviet socialist elite cars like those get big rebates. (That’s what some of now opposition politicians call them).

The Honda I was referring to was Honda E. Nice design but poor range and not great space for the size. There are better options.

In my country alternative fuels like CNG for cars are extremely rare, hydrogen non existent aside from small scale trials. Everything else is ICE (petrol or diesel) or EVs and hybrids.

EVs are becoming common even without incentives to buy them and things like distance based usage charges and scare campaigns like EV cars are going to destroy your weekends.
Last edited by cpd on Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:49 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Most apartment buildings around here have an underground garage, each apartment has a parking bay, its easy to install a charger in the parking bay, most new buildings will have these included, retrofitting them to older buildings is easy. If your building doesn't have parking then that's an issue, but you might have offsite parking near by which could also be fitted with a charger.

Green energy can come from hydro, solar or wind, some countries like South Korea will be building windfarms that will only be used to produce green hydrogen.

Many apartment buildings where I live do not allow car charging in the covered parkades let alone installation of a charger, either because the buildings infrastructure cannot support them or because of insurance purposes (fire hazard). Doesn't matter how many stats about electrical fires or any building will be able to support a charging network one brings up, those are the rules in many buildings here and they won't be changing anytime soon.


The EV take up is so huge in Norway that older buildings have had to be adapted and new buildings come standard with EV chargers. It's now cheaper to insure an EV than a ICE vehicle.

My former manager started his a company which installs destination chargers and software for managing them, the companies first order was from a Swedish company who own/manage 250,000 parking spaces.

Kiwirob wrote:
In Norway the Chinese brands are already established and competing against Tesla and the Europeans. BYD, MG NIO, XPeng, Hongqi are all represented in Norway.


Europe has always been more diverse with car brands than North America.

And to piss off the EV cultists even more - Honda will be offering a plug in hybrid CRV in 2024, but with a hydrogen engine and more and more manufacturers are jumping on the hydrogen bandwagon :thumbsup:[/quote]

Honda has been into hydrogen for a long time along with Toyota and Hyundai. Who else is jumping into hydrogen? IMO hydrogen makes more sense for trucks, trains and ships, whereas BEV's make more sense for passenger vehicles, especially small city cars. Either way I'm sure most of us who haven't got one foot in the grave already will own an HEV or a BEV at some point in time.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:56 am

cpd wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
We get rebates, not tariffs on both EV and hydrogen.


We don’t let Soviet socialist elite cars like those get big rebates. (That’s what some of now opposition politicians call them).

The Honda I was referring to was Honda E. Nice design but poor range and not great space for the size.


I looked at the Honda E and the Peugeot e-208, the E was a very interesting car, I nearly bought it before buying a Cooper SE. Of the 3 the Cooper was far an away the most fun to drive, it's not a lot different to the petrol Cooper S, range isn't an issue, its for my wife to drive a 30km round trip from home to work 5 days a week. This replaces our Audi A1, we've had that car for 9 years, it's been on one long drive from home to Trondheim in that time, which is about 220km, the Mini will be able to do this in summer, although it never will in our ownership. I will replace our bigger car as soon as someone builds a BEV station wagon.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:35 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The South Koreans are planning to built wind farms which will be dedicated to producing energy to make green hydrogen. They want to make gigantic amounts of it, so do the Japanese and Chinese.


In this transition plan, hydrogen will account for 33% of energy consumption and 23.8% of power generation by 2050.


https://www.offshore-energy.biz/jacobs- ... uth-korea/

So it's far from 100%, and it's 30 years away.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I think China does have an advantage, it's making lots of batteries. Including for Tesla. And it has access to a lot of the materials.

I wonder if the reason they've not invaded Europe (and the US) yet isn't a political calculation by XI, because if that happens, I expect a strong backlash, with protectionist measures. One of the Chinese brands is already planning a plant in the EU, that isn't a coincidence.


In Norway the Chinese brands are already established and competing against Tesla and the Europeans. BYD, MG NIO, XPeng, Hongqi are all represented in Norway.

With the Norwegian govts ill thought out 25% tax on new EV's over 500k nok companies like BYD and MG will be the winners, they are able to build family sized vehicles that will fit under this limit, most family sized German vehicle are over this limit.


Norway doesn't build cars. And isn't in the EU.

ACDC8 wrote:
Many apartment buildings where I live do not allow car charging in the covered parkades let alone installation of a charger, either because the buildings infrastructure cannot support them or because of insurance purposes (fire hazard). Doesn't matter how many stats about electrical fires or any building will be able to support a charging network one brings up, those are the rules in many buildings here and they won't be changing anytime soon.


Of course the laws will be changing, that's what politicians are for. Chargers will go from being banned to being mandatory.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:47 pm

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I think China does have an advantage, it's making lots of batteries. Including for Tesla. And it has access to a lot of the materials.

I wonder if the reason they've not invaded Europe (and the US) yet isn't a political calculation by XI, because if that happens, I expect a strong backlash, with protectionist measures. One of the Chinese brands is already planning a plant in the EU, that isn't a coincidence.


In Norway the Chinese brands are already established and competing against Tesla and the Europeans. BYD, MG NIO, XPeng, Hongqi are all represented in Norway.

With the Norwegian govts ill thought out 25% tax on new EV's over 500k nok companies like BYD and MG will be the winners, they are able to build family sized vehicles that will fit under this limit, most family sized German vehicle are over this limit.


Norway doesn't build cars. And isn't in the EU.

ACDC8 wrote:
Many apartment buildings where I live do not allow car charging in the covered parkades let alone installation of a charger, either because the buildings infrastructure cannot support them or because of insurance purposes (fire hazard). Doesn't matter how many stats about electrical fires or any building will be able to support a charging network one brings up, those are the rules in many buildings here and they won't be changing anytime soon.


Of course the laws will be changing, that's what politicians are for. Chargers will go from being banned to being mandatory.


Lots of countries in the EU don’t build cars. Norway is a member in all but name.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:07 pm

But there are millions upon millions (much more than the population of Norway) of workers in the EU auto industry that can't be ignored.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The South Koreans are planning to built wind farms which will be dedicated to producing energy to make green hydrogen. They want to make gigantic amounts of it, so do the Japanese and Chinese.


In this transition plan, hydrogen will account for 33% of energy consumption and 23.8% of power generation by 2050.


https://www.offshore-energy.biz/jacobs- ... uth-korea/

So it's far from 100%, and it's 30 years away.


It's a long road not a short one.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
But there are millions upon millions (much more than the population of Norway) of workers in the EU auto industry that can't be ignored.


The Chinese manufacturers will build factories in the EU like Tesla, the Japanese and Koreans have done.
 
JJJ
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:32 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
But there are millions upon millions (much more than the population of Norway) of workers in the EU auto industry that can't be ignored.


The Chinese manufacturers will build factories in the EU like Tesla, the Japanese and Koreans have done.


BYD already has two electric bus factories in Europe (France and Hungary).

It won't be long until cars get made here too.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Honda has been into hydrogen for a long time along with Toyota and Hyundai. Who else is jumping into hydrogen?

GM, Ford, BMW just to name some. Offering both EV and fuel cell vehicles, not putting all their eggs is one basket, the automotive market is very diverse and people have different needs. Both technologies meet zero emissions standards and achieve the same goal, offering both and letting the consumer decide is a good strategy.
Kiwirob wrote:
IMO hydrogen makes more sense for trucks, trains and ships, whereas BEV's make more sense for passenger vehicles, especially small city cars.

Trucks for sure, especially here in North America. But for passenger cars, there's also the regional aspect, with the amount of rural areas we have here in North America (especially Canada) and the distances some people need to travel, hydrogen makes a lot of sense over EVs. Like I said, its a very diverse market and needs vary. If I still lived in Europe, EV would be the most logical, but here in Canada, hydrogen makes more sense.
Kiwirob wrote:
Either way I'm sure most of us who haven't got one foot in the grave already will own an HEV or a BEV at some point in time.

No disagreement there. Personally, I'm still a good 10 years away which gives me time to see how the technology advances and a better picture of long time, real world battery longevity and reliability. Thats why I was very particular with specing out my GTI, wanted it to be exactly what I wanted so I can really enjoy my last manual car.
cpd wrote:
EVs are becoming common even without incentives to buy them and things like distance based usage charges and scare campaigns like EV cars are going to destroy your weekends.

Rebates have been critical to get people into EVs here, when the Government dropped the rebates, the sales plummeted. With out them, most people here just can't afford them. I was just watching a car review and they were comparing it with the Tesla 3 and mentioned that the Tesla now starts at $60000 CAD, thats just way out of reach for most Canadians. The cheapest EVs are the Bolt and Leaf, but not many people want a subcompact car, especially for $40K. Then you look at cars like the Kona which pretty much costs twice as much for the electrified version over the gasoline version, add sales tax and incredibly high interest rates, you're gonna be spending $1000+ a month for 8 years, at least the rebates pretty much cancel the sales tax.

Kiwirob wrote:
I will replace our bigger car as soon as someone builds a BEV station wagon.

Image
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:04 pm

I'm on our high rise condo EV charging committee. We were assuming that it could be 3-4 years before any installation would take place. Wrong. Suddenly it looks like this coming year will be the optimal time, and that we have far more power available than we thought. Because it is in a high rise it will cost about double what it would in a private residence. Another cost is handling the payments for electricity used in charging. That will have a largish annual fee plus some costs per kWh used over the actual cost of power from the utility. They also looked at our three levels of garages with florescent lighting and suggested a huge savings if we switched over to LEDs.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Battery cars vs Hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:39 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Image

Those rims are gigantic.

First numbers rumored for this vehicle sound great, though. 600+ km range (700 for the sedan), 10 min to charge for 300km range, 25 min for 5-80%.

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