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Tugger
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Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:53 pm

So there will be an announcement today (supposedly) on what the Biden administration wants to do regarding student loan debt. I for one am against forgiving student loans (unless there is malfeasance on the part of the lender or school).

There are many reasons to not forgive debt in any "blanket" fashion People choose to go to school and some choose to take on debt while others work while they attend to pay for it or have schooling paid fro them by other means. And while I get the hardship it can cause, this is something that needs a finer touch in my opinion. Perhaps forgiveness for public service or other options that benefit the taxpayers that will be bearing the cost of such an action. Or reduced payments that match income.

What are your thoughts?

And yes, I did have school loans and it took many years to pay them off.

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:25 pm

Both Nancy Pelosi and the DoEd have stated on several occasions that the Executive branch does NOT have the statutory authority to cancel debt, it’d be interesting to hear the new law that was passed. Now, taxpayers, the majority of whom did not go to college on a loan, we be left holding the bag so Biden looks better. Congrats.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/2 ... ebt-501521

DoEd General Counsel

https://static.politico.com/d6/ce/3edf6 ... aloans.pdf
 
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NIKV69
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:31 pm

Ridiculous, I am all for making them interest free and helping students pay them off but to just forgive it is a slap in the face to hard working people who paid theirs off. Another grasp at straws from a president who is flailing and failing badly. Let me know when my GF gets a $10k check since she paid hers off. I guess this is a way to get to free college for all.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Both Nancy Pelosi and the DoEd have stated on several occasions that the Executive branch does NOT have the statutory authority to cancel debt, it’d be interesting to hear the new law that was passed. Now, taxpayers, the majority of whom did not go to college on a loan, we be left holding the bag so Biden looks better. Congrats.

I honestly doubt that will happen. But yes there is a lot of pressure to "just do it". Presidents have done things by executive order though even when they are not "allowed to" just to look better to their fan base. I don't think Biden will do that though (for one he doesn't have a fan base ;- ).

I think any relief will hew to the law and be limited but the talk of just cancelling made want to discuss and see what people think. For me, I don't get the cry of those that just want it done by fiat.

Tugg
 
luckyone
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:33 pm

I have some ambivalence here: I agree undergraduates are taking on far too much debt. I know quite a few people from undergrad who had no direction whatsoever and took out the full FAFSA amount, and used it to party. That is irresponsible and I would like to see a way to stratify who is eligible, and some type of formula for expected return (sorry, you shouldn't be allowed to take $40,000/year in student loans if you're only going to make average salary), such as STEM, Accounting, Economics or another field that for skills that cannot be acquired by apprenticeship alone (which would include fields such as "General Business" or "Marketing," sorry, those guys were the biggest goof offs in school, and those degrees are substitutes for what use to be apprenticeships and on-the-job learning).

I think that anybody on student aid as an undergrad should be working whether it's work study, or demonstrating that they have at least a part time job (bar tending, waiting tables, dog walking, ten hours per week of cleaning somebody's house, etc, etc I don't care but show me you're at least going to pay your rent or grocery bill). At the same time, there are some avenues that it is impossible to work one's way through, such as medicine or veterinary school, law school and these fields can and do provide a very real tangible public benefit -- yes I'm biased as I'm a physician. Other advanced degrees should either be tuition waived via teaching, or industry sponsored but sorry, you're not getting student loans for a PhD in Sociology or English lit. Historically those are play things for people with means, and I'm sorry, but that's the way it should stay unless the university is willing to give a tuition waiver and a stipend (which they often do).
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:34 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Ridiculous, I am all for making them interest free and helping students pay them off but to just forgive it is a slap in the face to hard working people who paid theirs off. Another grasp at straws from a president who is flailing and failing badly. Let me know when my GF gets a $10k check since she paid hers off. I guess this is a way to get to free college for all.

Agreed.

I can support interest free and the ability to put of or reduce payments to a manageable level (with demonstrated need). But if you forgive then I want mine and also my kids who are working so they don't have to take loans out.

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:38 pm

luckyone wrote:
I have some ambivalence here: I agree undergraduates are taking on far too much debt. I know quite a few people from undergrad who had no direction whatsoever and took out the full FAFSA amount, and used it to party. That is irresponsible and I would like to see a way to stratify who is eligible, and some type of formula for expected return (sorry, you shouldn't be allowed to take $40,000/year in student loans if you're only going to make average salary), such as STEM, Accounting, Economics or another field that for skills that cannot be acquired by apprenticeship alone (which would include fields such as "General Business" or "Marketing," sorry, those guys were the biggest goof offs in school, and those degrees are substitutes for what use to be apprenticeships and on-the-job learning).

I think that anybody on student aid as an undergrad should be working whether it's work study, or demonstrating that they have at least a part time job (bar tending, waiting tables, dog walking, ten hours per week of cleaning somebody's house, etc, etc I don't care but show me you're at least going to pay your rent or grocery bill). At the same time, there are some avenues that it is impossible to work one's way through, such as medicine or veterinary school, law school and these fields can and do provide a very real tangible public benefit -- yes I'm biased as I'm a physician. Other advanced degrees should either be tuition waived via teaching, or industry sponsored but sorry, you're not getting student loans for a PhD in Sociology or English lit. Historically those are play things for people with means, and I'm sorry, but that's the way it should stay unless the university is willing to give a tuition waiver and a stipend (which they often do).


Completely agree. Any loan forgiveness should be a. means tested and b. tied to social benefit. In terms of social benefit, 'Humanities' or 'Literature' majors are not on par with city planners, data analysts, or scientific researchers, and never will be.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:40 pm

luckyone wrote:
I have some ambivalence here: I agree undergraduates are taking on far too much debt. I know quite a few people from undergrad who had no direction whatsoever and took out the full FAFSA amount, and used it to party. That is irresponsible and I would like to see a way to stratify who is eligible, and some type of formula for expected return (sorry, you shouldn't be allowed to take $40,000/year in student loans if you're only going to make average salary), such as STEM, Accounting, Economics or another field that for skills that cannot be acquired by apprenticeship alone (which would include fields such as "General Business" or "Marketing," sorry, those guys were the biggest goof offs in school, and those degrees are substitutes for what use to be apprenticeships and on-the-job learning).

I think that anybody on student aid as an undergrad should be working whether it's work study, or demonstrating that they have at least a part time job (bar tending, waiting tables, dog walking, ten hours per week of cleaning somebody's house, etc, etc I don't care but show me you're at least going to pay your rent or grocery bill). At the same time, there are some avenues that it is impossible to work one's way through, such as medicine or veterinary school, law school and these fields can and do provide a very real tangible public benefit -- yes I'm biased as I'm a physician. Other advanced degrees should either be tuition waived via teaching, or industry sponsored but sorry, you're not getting student loans for a PhD in Sociology or English lit. Historically those are play things for people with means, and I'm sorry, but that's the way it should stay unless the university is willing to give a tuition waiver and a stipend (which they often do).

I have often thought that perhaps it should be the university that has to apply for and get the money for the student. This will put more competition and selectivity into the process and prevent the "use the money to party" problem. It should also reduce the rampant college cost increases that can occur when there is "free money" that every student will pay them without thinking.

But ultimately it is for the students benefit (supposedly) and their decision. And if one takes loans, then one needs to be responsible for an pay them back.

And no, I don't support making college free (though I can see an argument for states providing community college for those that need it).

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:44 pm

 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Both Nancy Pelosi and the DoEd have stated on several occasions that the Executive branch does NOT have the statutory authority to cancel debt, it’d be interesting to hear the new law that was passed. Now, taxpayers, the majority of whom did not go to college on a loan, we be left holding the bag so Biden looks better. Congrats.

I honestly doubt that will happen. But yes there is a lot of pressure to "just do it". Presidents have done things by executive order though even when they are not "allowed to" just to look better to their fan base. I don't think Biden will do that though (for one he doesn't have a fan base ;- ).

I think any relief will hew to the law and be limited but the talk of just cancelling made want to discuss and see what people think. For me, I don't get the cry of those that just want it done by fiat.

Tugg


What won’t happen? He just did it without statutory authority, Congress did pass a law or appropriate money thru the budget process.

Debt forgiveness is usually a taxable event, somehow that was also forgiven contrary to law.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/what-if-my ... s-forgiven
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Both Nancy Pelosi and the DoEd have stated on several occasions that the Executive branch does NOT have the statutory authority to cancel debt, it’d be interesting to hear the new law that was passed. Now, taxpayers, the majority of whom did not go to college on a loan, we be left holding the bag so Biden looks better. Congrats.

I honestly doubt that will happen. But yes there is a lot of pressure to "just do it". Presidents have done things by executive order though even when they are not "allowed to" just to look better to their fan base. I don't think Biden will do that though (for one he doesn't have a fan base ;- ).

I think any relief will hew to the law and be limited but the talk of just cancelling made want to discuss and see what people think. For me, I don't get the cry of those that just want it done by fiat.

Tugg


What won’t happen? He just did it without statutory authority, Congress did pass a law or appropriate money thru the budget process.

Debt forgiveness is usually a taxable event, somehow that was also forgiven contrary to law.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/what-if-my ... s-forgiven

Yes I am just reading this. And well there you go, I am very wrong in thinking Biden wouldn't do something this stupid. And now we'll see if I'm wrong again in thinking this will be challenged and not able to be implemented, with the Supreme Court ruling it outside the law and what the president can do via EO.

That will leave Biden with a lot of angry people on both sides, on one side those that are mad he wanted them to "pay off other peoples loans" and on the other side now those with loans they will again will be required to pay for.

Just dumb.

Tugg
 
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casinterest
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:37 pm

The issue here is that they are giving a blanket 10K out. I don't mind forgiving 10K to the folks that will never pay it off, but the below stat from CNN makes me angry that those above 80K in income will benefit from this.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/24/politics ... index.html

It found that one-third of the canceled dollars would go to households who earn less than $50,795 a year. A little more than half of the debt relief would go to those earning between $50,795 and $141,096.
Roughly 14% of the canceled dollars would go to households earning more than $141,096 a year.


Why should folks that have standing jobs get the forgiveness.
I took Pell Grants and I still paid off all my loans.

I was never dumb about taking the loans. I took the bare minimum to cover my Tuition, books, and a modest 10 dollar a day food/excess expenses while still working a job.

This solution doesn't solve the problem though, and you know why?

Because it doesn't give a refund to those that paid off their loans and suffered before(Where is my 20K?) , and it won't solve the problem of kids still taking on too many loans going forward.
 
luckyone
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:03 pm

casinterest wrote:
The issue here is that they are giving a blanket 10K out. I don't mind forgiving 10K to the folks that will never pay it off, but the below stat from CNN makes me angry that those above 80K in income will benefit from this.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/24/politics ... index.html

It found that one-third of the canceled dollars would go to households who earn less than $50,795 a year. A little more than half of the debt relief would go to those earning between $50,795 and $141,096.
Roughly 14% of the canceled dollars would go to households earning more than $141,096 a year.


Why should folks that have standing jobs get the forgiveness.
I took Pell Grants and I still paid off all my loans.

I was never dumb about taking the loans. I took the bare minimum to cover my Tuition, books, and a modest 10 dollar a day food/excess expenses while still working a job.

This solution doesn't solve the problem though, and you know why?

Because it doesn't give a refund to those that paid off their loans and suffered before(Where is my 20K?) , and it won't solve the problem of kids still taking on too many loans going forward.

What's somewhat comical here is Republicans complaining about unfair wealth distribution--even ten years ago one would've never heard a Republican complain about unfair wealth distribution, that was firmly Democratic (and labeled as) Socialist territory. Just more evidence of the periodic political realignment we're living through.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:19 pm

luckyone wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The issue here is that they are giving a blanket 10K out. I don't mind forgiving 10K to the folks that will never pay it off, but the below stat from CNN makes me angry that those above 80K in income will benefit from this.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/24/politics ... index.html

It found that one-third of the canceled dollars would go to households who earn less than $50,795 a year. A little more than half of the debt relief would go to those earning between $50,795 and $141,096.
Roughly 14% of the canceled dollars would go to households earning more than $141,096 a year.


Why should folks that have standing jobs get the forgiveness.
I took Pell Grants and I still paid off all my loans.

I was never dumb about taking the loans. I took the bare minimum to cover my Tuition, books, and a modest 10 dollar a day food/excess expenses while still working a job.

This solution doesn't solve the problem though, and you know why?

Because it doesn't give a refund to those that paid off their loans and suffered before(Where is my 20K?) , and it won't solve the problem of kids still taking on too many loans going forward.

What's somewhat comical here is Republicans complaining about unfair wealth distribution--even ten years ago one would've never heard a Republican complain about unfair wealth distribution, that was firmly Democratic (and labeled as) Socialist territory. Just more evidence of the periodic political realignment we're living through.


The big issue is that we are still not addressing the big issue.
1.6 Trillion in loads across 40 million people. That is 40,000 in average of loans outstanding per person that owes.

Granting up to 10k per person is still not helping those that put forth the effort to pay their loans.

The below chart does put in place part of the issue in that the Federal support for College Students has not kept pace with inflation
Image

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... d-it-most/
 
luckyone
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
luckyone wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The issue here is that they are giving a blanket 10K out. I don't mind forgiving 10K to the folks that will never pay it off, but the below stat from CNN makes me angry that those above 80K in income will benefit from this.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/24/politics ... index.html



Why should folks that have standing jobs get the forgiveness.
I took Pell Grants and I still paid off all my loans.

I was never dumb about taking the loans. I took the bare minimum to cover my Tuition, books, and a modest 10 dollar a day food/excess expenses while still working a job.

This solution doesn't solve the problem though, and you know why?

Because it doesn't give a refund to those that paid off their loans and suffered before(Where is my 20K?) , and it won't solve the problem of kids still taking on too many loans going forward.

What's somewhat comical here is Republicans complaining about unfair wealth distribution--even ten years ago one would've never heard a Republican complain about unfair wealth distribution, that was firmly Democratic (and labeled as) Socialist territory. Just more evidence of the periodic political realignment we're living through.


The big issue is that we are still not addressing the big issue.
1.6 Trillion in loads across 40 million people. That is 40,000 in average of loans outstanding per person that owes.

Granting up to 10k per person is still not helping those that put forth the effort to pay their loans.

The below chart does put in place part of the issue in that the Federal support for College Students has not kept pace with inflation
Image

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... d-it-most/

I don't disagree.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:28 pm

Pretty much EC101, subsidies increase the price of a good. The Feds’ college loan program is a subsidy, hence it shifted demand to the right and the colleges took the money subsidy thru tuition.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:04 pm

Normally I'd oppose such move but..

All the folks on the right complaining about this move, were the first ones (literally - many received preferential treatment from their banks) to collect trillions in PPP loans, then lobby Congress to remove all restrictions associated with forgiveness (e.g. they didn't actually have to save any jobs to keep the money, and could still report all expenses against their normal income). Now the "little guy" gets a slice and the world's coming to an end.

Rules for thee, but not for me...
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:42 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Pretty much EC101, subsidies increase the price of a good. The Feds’ college loan program is a subsidy, hence it shifted demand to the right and the colleges took the money subsidy thru tuition.


There's no doubt that the Fed's willingness to increase the amount of money available to dispense as student loans has lead to swelling tuition. Nor is it a secret -- unions often point toward the raised ceiling as a means to justify an increase to their already bloated comp packages. We don't need to comp a community college professor nearly $200K/year (including benefits) to teach Econ 101 and Econ 102, but we are. My sister-in-law does such, and works a whopping one day on campus for 30 weeks per year (class+office hours) and spends a few more hours at home catering to her online classes for 37.5 weeks per year. Ridiculous.

That said, providing $10K in one-time relief isn't going to cause schools to spike tuition, unless such relief becomes a regular thing. And it won't, as it would be far cheaper for the government to comp the first two years of school and roll back tax credits / financial aid / grants to pay for it. Such move would require schools to be more efficient with their funding.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:32 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[...] We don't need to comp a community college professor nearly $200K/year (including benefits) to teach Econ 101 and Econ 102, but we are. My sister-in-law does such, and works a whopping one day on campus for 30 weeks per year (class+office hours) and spends a few more hours at home catering to her online classes for 37.5 weeks per year. Ridiculous.
[...]

Source? Link?

I know you qualified your post with "My sister-in-law" making it anecdotal at best but it seems implied it is a widespread thing. So I am curious. There are professors that earn that much and you note she works "on campus" one day a week and I know there are online universities that pay higher for high student loads, though I don't know of that for community college teachers. You say "including benefits", how much are the benefits in that figure? Is she max seniority and nearing retirement?

I know this is off topic but I just want to clarify. So many like to complain about teachers pay when the vast majority aren't and many work hard for less than what many other professions pay.

Tugg
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:21 pm

Tugger wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[...] We don't need to comp a community college professor nearly $200K/year (including benefits) to teach Econ 101 and Econ 102, but we are. My sister-in-law does such, and works a whopping one day on campus for 30 weeks per year (class+office hours) and spends a few more hours at home catering to her online classes for 37.5 weeks per year. Ridiculous.
[...]

Source? Link?

I know there are professor that earn that much and you note she works "on campus" one day a week and I know there are online universities that pay higher for high student loads, but I don't know of that for community college teachers. You say "including benefits", how much are the benefits in that figure? Is she max seniority and nearing retirement?

I know this is off topic but I just want to clarify. So many like to complain about teachers pay when the vast majority aren't and many work hard for less than what many other professions pay.

Tugg


My source is myself, as I do her taxes. Many websites publish individual salary information for public institutions, so it's not hard to verify. She earns $120K base. Her employer maxes a max contribution to her 401 equivalent ($19,500), provides $1000 to her FSA ($500 to her and $500 to her husband), $5000 in child care benefits and a flat $7200 ($600/month) for phone & internet reimbursement. She gets family health care (including dental and vision) that includes no co-insurance, no deductible, no-cost prescriptions and modest $5-$10 co-pays (when her youngest daughter was born in 2019, she paid less than $100 out-of-pocket for everything). She also gets life insurance that covers 3 years salary, as well as supplemental short & long-term disability (she lives in CA). She's in her early 40s and started just over 10 years ago.

She's required to teach 4 classes in the fall & winter semesters (15 weeks each), and 1-2 classes in the spring (7.5 weeks). In the fall + winter, she's on campus one day per week, teaching one class + 3 office hours. Her other classes are online, with 3 virtual office hours by appointment. Honestly, I love her but she spends little time working - most of her time is focused on her "side gig." And she's not alone, it's why so many of her co-workers have "side gigs."

People love to complain teachers are underpaid, but that's only in early career. Across the country, many teachers earn $80K+ after 10 years (requires a grad degree usually) w/generous benefits, and can retire after 30 years (sometimes sooner) and receive lifetime free or low-cost health care, as well as a generous pension. Not a career to go into past your mid-30s, but if you get in before that...
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:45 am

Glad to see some benefits going to poor, working class and middle class families! We are tired of subsidizing corporations and the wealthy in the U.S. This is a pro life policy that does not go far enough. We should have forgiven at least 50,000 in student loan debt. I am glad to see 10,000 though. We also need to vote to make sure college is made more affordable for people in college now and in the future.
 
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c933103
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:08 am

I have heard some American describing this as "Welfare for the rich" as college graduate generally have higher income than those who aren't?
 
Kent350787
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:38 am

By definition student debt forgiveness will skew to the better educated, but it isn’t the revenue hit of tax cuts or short term inflationary sugar rush of direct payments.
 
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seb146
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:41 am

Education in America is too expensive. To get good jobs, we must have a good education but we can't have a good education unless we borrow heavily against our future. Even still, we are not guaranteed a good paying job because all those good paying jobs are overseas. The current mantra of "no one wants to work" is completely false. Everyone wants to work but we can't afford it.

Republicans constantly point to people graduating with "gender studies" and "comparative French literature" as degrees which, I am sure some students do, but many students graduate with degrees in chemistry and health care and engineering and then get mad because "why should I pay for people studying 'gender studies'?"

Maybe make education for all affordable (like making health care affordable for all, but that is another thread) and we would not be having this discussion.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:59 am

Can’t be doing this stuff right now with inflation being what it is and biting low-income folks the most. Also doesn’t address the root issue…in 4-6 years we’ll just be right back where we started.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:31 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Glad to see some benefits going to poor, working class and middle class families! We are tired of subsidizing corporations and the wealthy in the U.S. This is a pro life policy that does not go far enough. We should have forgiven at least 50,000 in student loan debt. I am glad to see 10,000 though. We also need to vote to make sure college is made more affordable for people in college now and in the future.


But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:26 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/

Yeah, I now have to ask why doesn't someone who DIDN'T go to college but has debts deserve a $10,000.00 forgiveness? Seriously, these are the people that build the university buildings, maintain the grounds, empty the trash in the colleges, build the cars the students and graduates will drive, and paint the houses they will buy. Why is their debt burden not as important? They do equally important work to keep things running.

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:37 am

c933103 wrote:
I have heard some American describing this as "Welfare for the rich" as college graduate generally have higher income than those who aren't?


Yes and no - some positions in the trades pay far better over time.

But the essential newsflash for knee jerk reactions to this is: wealthy people don’t have any student debt to forgive.

Criticize based on the parameters, legality, and applicability of this. Helping rich people it ain’t
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:30 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Glad to see some benefits going to poor, working class and middle class families! We are tired of subsidizing corporations and the wealthy in the U.S. This is a pro life policy that does not go far enough. We should have forgiven at least 50,000 in student loan debt. I am glad to see 10,000 though. We also need to vote to make sure college is made more affordable for people in college now and in the future.


But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/


Of course, what conservative media loves to ignore is that 40% of those possessing student debt never graduated. Earlier this year, when the ceiling was expected to be $75K ($150K joint filing), the NYT estimated that about two-thirds of those receiving relief have no degree. Nearly 5 million people with loans of $10k or less are in default, and around 80% of people with loans but no degree owe $10K or less.

It’s certainly a better, cheaper idea that will help more people than the PPP program…
 
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c933103
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:46 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I have heard some American describing this as "Welfare for the rich" as college graduate generally have higher income than those who aren't?


Yes and no - some positions in the trades pay far better over time.

But the essential newsflash for knee jerk reactions to this is: wealthy people don’t have any student debt to forgive.

Criticize based on the parameters, legality, and applicability of this. Helping rich people it ain’t

I do notice apparently there is an income level restriction for the wavier?
But still, with college graduate generally more likely to earn higher salary, even if some of those people are might be fresh off the school and thus have pretty high amount of debt to themselves, that doesn't imply those people won't be able to pay for it into the future especially with their future prospect.
This fact check article https://www.statesman.com/story/news/po ... 586541001/ mentioned that most student debt do own by people who probably earn enough to pay off their student debt in their life, with some student debts hold by those who earn less but these people are generally less likely to get into student debt problems in the first place. (Those with annual income >$74000 own ~60% total student loan debt, those with household income <$35000 own ~20% total student loan debt.) (And Google say median annual income of an American is roughly $41000 or $56000 depends on whether part time workers are counted)

With these data, it mean median income of ordinary student debt holder actually earn more than $74000 a year, and by rough estimation an ordinary student debt bearer would be earning $20000 more a year than a general American
But I guess it might still make some sense for the policy to try to relieve the burden of younger generation if part of the goal involve thing like helping college graduate to climb the social ladder and form family faster to help boost birth rate and such. In addition to make good of election promise.
 
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c933103
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:49 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Glad to see some benefits going to poor, working class and middle class families! We are tired of subsidizing corporations and the wealthy in the U.S. This is a pro life policy that does not go far enough. We should have forgiven at least 50,000 in student loan debt. I am glad to see 10,000 though. We also need to vote to make sure college is made more affordable for people in college now and in the future.


But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/


Of course, what conservative media loves to ignore is that 40% of those possessing student debt never graduated. Earlier this year, when the ceiling was expected to be $75K ($150K joint filing), the NYT estimated that about two-thirds of those receiving relief have no degree. Nearly 5 million people with loans of $10k or less are in default, and around 80% of people with loans but no degree owe $10K or less.

It’s certainly a better, cheaper idea that will help more people than the PPP program…

Then would it make more sense that instead of cancelling 10K for every student debt holders, instead cancel 20K for those who didn't graduate?
It would cost less money to do so and is a more targeted relieve.
Maybe it should even be made permanent as part of the loan offer?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:52 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Glad to see some benefits going to poor, working class and middle class families! We are tired of subsidizing corporations and the wealthy in the U.S. This is a pro life policy that does not go far enough. We should have forgiven at least 50,000 in student loan debt. I am glad to see 10,000 though. We also need to vote to make sure college is made more affordable for people in college now and in the future.


But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/


Of course, what conservative media loves to ignore is that 40% of those possessing student debt never graduated. Earlier this year, when the ceiling was expected to be $75K ($150K joint filing), the NYT estimated that about two-thirds of those receiving relief have no degree. Nearly 5 million people with loans of $10k or less are in default, and around 80% of people with loans but no degree owe $10K or less.

It’s certainly a better, cheaper idea that will help more people than the PPP program…

Bankruptcy

A better idea still would be to just simply allow bankrutcy to clear student debt. That would solve pretty much the whole problem right there. And no need for any presidential "forgiveness". Can't manage the debt? Just declare bankruptcy.

Tugg
(5.....4.....3....counting down and waiting for someone to tell what I already know and is another reason why eliminating the bankruptcy exclusion would solve the problem....2....)
 
ltbewr
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/


Of course, what conservative media loves to ignore is that 40% of those possessing student debt never graduated. Earlier this year, when the ceiling was expected to be $75K ($150K joint filing), the NYT estimated that about two-thirds of those receiving relief have no degree. Nearly 5 million people with loans of $10k or less are in default, and around 80% of people with loans but no degree owe $10K or less.
It’s certainly a better, cheaper idea that will help more people than the PPP program…

Bankruptcy
A better idea still would be to just simply allow bankrutcy to clear student debt. That would solve pretty much the whole problem right there. And no need for any presidential "forgiveness". Can't manage the debt? Just declare bankruptcy.
Tugg
(5.....4.....3....counting down and waiting for someone to tell what I already know and is another reason why eliminating the bankruptcy exclusion would solve the problem....2....)

Government and private student loans were excluded from being discharged in Bankruptcy proceedings except for certain extreme financial hardship (usually medical disability) starting in the 1970's and several revisions into the 2000's. One example of why the limit was that medical students would complete their education with massive student loan debt and file for bankruptcy shortly after completion of their studies so could afford to go into practice. It also protects private lenders from losing money from student loans, so they reduce their risk substantially and willing to make those loans to future students. .https://www.fool.com/student-loans/is-w ... ankruptcy/

I do think we need to return to some less strict but still firm qualifications via bankruptcy or administrative process to allow reduction or elimination of student loan debts due to personal and medical hardship. We have seen the government discharge student loan debt for those who attended privately owned for profit 'trade' schools where engaged in fraud in their programs, were shut down by governments for it. Perhaps that should included private colleges that go out of business, eliminating interest payments, require a 'good faith' effort to repay.
We also need to discourage loans to expensive private colleges, loans only for tuition and fees (not for residence - room & meals or personal expenses). Schools, especially state run ones, need to cut administrative costs, ditch expensive semi-pro sports teams with their huge expenses, state governments increasing back to 1960-70's levels subsidies to state schools. Expand use of Community Colleges. Expand scholarship programs to top HS graduates.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:03 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Glad to see some benefits going to poor, working class and middle class families! We are tired of subsidizing corporations and the wealthy in the U.S. This is a pro life policy that does not go far enough. We should have forgiven at least 50,000 in student loan debt. I am glad to see 10,000 though. We also need to vote to make sure college is made more affordable for people in college now and in the future.


But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/


Of course, what conservative media loves to ignore is that 40% of those possessing student debt never graduated. Earlier this year, when the ceiling was expected to be $75K ($150K joint filing), the NYT estimated that about two-thirds of those receiving relief have no degree. Nearly 5 million people with loans of $10k or less are in default, and around 80% of people with loans but no degree owe $10K or less.

It’s certainly a better, cheaper idea that will help more people than the PPP program…


Well 60% of those with student debt have advanced degrees and why is the limit allowed to be 125k for a single person ? I paid all my student loans working full time and going to school full time and I didn't start making over 100k until late in my life. Anyone who makes over a 100k can pay their damn loans. Not to mention this is not going to address the root problem which is the high cost of college. This will never change especially under the democrats since they are they get the most political contributions from the college world. Attack the root problem and just because you didn't graduate and get your degree is not our problem you took on the debt you own the debt. This is why liberals drive me insane. Personal responsibility never ever comes into play no matter what the issue is
 
stratosphere
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:11 pm

seb146 wrote:
Education in America is too expensive. To get good jobs, we must have a good education but we can't have a good education unless we borrow heavily against our future. Even still, we are not guaranteed a good paying job because all those good paying jobs are overseas. The current mantra of "no one wants to work" is completely false. Everyone wants to work but we can't afford it.

Republicans constantly point to people graduating with "gender studies" and "comparative French literature" as degrees which, I am sure some students do, but many students graduate with degrees in chemistry and health care and engineering and then get mad because "why should I pay for people studying 'gender studies'?"

Maybe make education for all affordable (like making health care affordable for all, but that is another thread) and we would not be having this discussion.


That would be great except it will never happen. Just like drug prices the lobbyists pay off both parties to keep the status quo the idea that the Democrats have lowered drug prices are a shell game big pharma will always get their way and the higher education world gives way more to Democrats than Republicans so you will never get to the root problem there either at least with Democrats at the helm.
 
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seb146
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:53 pm

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Education in America is too expensive. To get good jobs, we must have a good education but we can't have a good education unless we borrow heavily against our future. Even still, we are not guaranteed a good paying job because all those good paying jobs are overseas. The current mantra of "no one wants to work" is completely false. Everyone wants to work but we can't afford it.

Republicans constantly point to people graduating with "gender studies" and "comparative French literature" as degrees which, I am sure some students do, but many students graduate with degrees in chemistry and health care and engineering and then get mad because "why should I pay for people studying 'gender studies'?"

Maybe make education for all affordable (like making health care affordable for all, but that is another thread) and we would not be having this discussion.


That would be great except it will never happen. Just like drug prices the lobbyists pay off both parties to keep the status quo the idea that the Democrats have lowered drug prices are a shell game big pharma will always get their way and the higher education world gives way more to Democrats than Republicans so you will never get to the root problem there either at least with Democrats at the helm.


Again with the "both sides do it" which is patently false. Democrats HAVE lowered prescription drug prices. They have been trying for a long, long time to lower health care costs overall, but Republicans block every attempt. Republicans blocked a bill lowering health care costs for veterans and another lowering costs for seniors. The bill for lowering insulin prices for seniors finally passed.

Democrats understand and talk about education costs being out of control. They try to pass bills to lower costs and bill to help students with funding. In response, Republicans believe private, for-profit education is the only way.

Both sides do not do it. Stop giving the MAGA party a pass at everything. Democrats are not that great, but both sides do not do it.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:20 pm

seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Education in America is too expensive. To get good jobs, we must have a good education but we can't have a good education unless we borrow heavily against our future. Even still, we are not guaranteed a good paying job because all those good paying jobs are overseas. The current mantra of "no one wants to work" is completely false. Everyone wants to work but we can't afford it.

Republicans constantly point to people graduating with "gender studies" and "comparative French literature" as degrees which, I am sure some students do, but many students graduate with degrees in chemistry and health care and engineering and then get mad because "why should I pay for people studying 'gender studies'?"

Maybe make education for all affordable (like making health care affordable for all, but that is another thread) and we would not be having this discussion.


That would be great except it will never happen. Just like drug prices the lobbyists pay off both parties to keep the status quo the idea that the Democrats have lowered drug prices are a shell game big pharma will always get their way and the higher education world gives way more to Democrats than Republicans so you will never get to the root problem there either at least with Democrats at the helm.


Again with the "both sides do it" which is patently false. Democrats HAVE lowered prescription drug prices. They have been trying for a long, long time to lower health care costs overall, but Republicans block every attempt. Republicans blocked a bill lowering health care costs for veterans and another lowering costs for seniors. The bill for lowering insulin prices for seniors finally passed.

Democrats understand and talk about education costs being out of control. They try to pass bills to lower costs and bill to help students with funding. In response, Republicans believe private, for-profit education is the only way.

Both sides do not do it. Stop giving the MAGA party a pass at everything. Democrats are not that great, but both sides do not do it.


They may have lowered the “price” but we now nothing about the real effect on availability, waiting times, shortages. Price ceilings inevitably have later effects which few wish to ascribe to the government imposed price ceilings. Same with price ceilings anywhere—rent control being a prime example.

On debt relief, Jason Furman, Obama’s economic advisor had a long tweet about how inflationary this will be.

https://twitter.com/jasonfurman/status/ ... 2rBxMT_JnQ
 
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casinterest
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:41 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

That would be great except it will never happen. Just like drug prices the lobbyists pay off both parties to keep the status quo the idea that the Democrats have lowered drug prices are a shell game big pharma will always get their way and the higher education world gives way more to Democrats than Republicans so you will never get to the root problem there either at least with Democrats at the helm.


Again with the "both sides do it" which is patently false. Democrats HAVE lowered prescription drug prices. They have been trying for a long, long time to lower health care costs overall, but Republicans block every attempt. Republicans blocked a bill lowering health care costs for veterans and another lowering costs for seniors. The bill for lowering insulin prices for seniors finally passed.

Democrats understand and talk about education costs being out of control. They try to pass bills to lower costs and bill to help students with funding. In response, Republicans believe private, for-profit education is the only way.

Both sides do not do it. Stop giving the MAGA party a pass at everything. Democrats are not that great, but both sides do not do it.


They may have lowered the “price” but we now nothing about the real effect on availability, waiting times, shortages. Price ceilings inevitably have later effects which few wish to ascribe to the government imposed price ceilings. Same with price ceilings anywhere—rent control being a prime example.

On debt relief, Jason Furman, Obama’s economic advisor had a long tweet about how inflationary this will be.

https://twitter.com/jasonfurman/status/ ... 2rBxMT_JnQ



I don't disagree with many of Furman's points.

This loan forgiveness doesn't fix the main issues of college costs. It merely benefits a subset of current victims of the cost issues., and that it blanketly applies to those that can and cannot pay off their loans is the biggest problem I have with it,. I get that bankruptcy doesn't forgive the loan, but we need a means way of getting those loans paid for.



One of the biggest issues we have about college though is that we ask all students to pay the same for degrees that will never pay the same as others.

I knew people that took huge loans to go to a private school to get mediocre degrees. I knew others that scraped and scrambled to go to low cost universities and get medical , engineering, and valuable management degrees , that all paid their loans off.

We need Colleges and Universities to be responsible in how they ask Students to spend money. If you are asking them to pay 500 dollars a credit hour, over 120 credits, plus room and board, you better be able to show them the loan payments along with their average projected income to pay off those loans once they start accruing interest.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:46 pm

Neither college attendees, nor universities, need further subsidy.

The subsidies are the reason why college costs so much. Full stop. A college education can be very low cost, and generally is, in many countries. Let’s take the greed out of it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:04 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Neither college attendees, nor universities, need further subsidy.

The subsidies are the reason why college costs so much. Full stop. A college education can be very low cost, and generally is, in many countries. Let’s take the greed out of it.


Why? And let all the collegiate level service jobs go to other countries?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:02 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Neither college attendees, nor universities, need further subsidy.

The subsidies are the reason why college costs so much. Full stop. A college education can be very low cost, and generally is, in many countries. Let’s take the greed out of it.


It’s NOT greed, universities are incentivized to raise tuition, room, board and fees by the Federal loan guarantee program. New student shows up, high cost, we got a loan for you! Stop that, competition and smart shopping will sort out the cost problem quickly. I live in an area with five large and expensive colleges complete with ice rinksm horse boarding facilities, upscale shopping, luxury living. Take away the Uncle Sam money.
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:10 pm

I find it comical, all of the red hat wearing republicans yelling and screaming out this. Now how many of them were given PPP loans and never paid them back. Marjorie Three Toes crying about the student loan forgiveness yet takes out a 180,000 PPP loan that she doesn't pay back. Tom Brady gets a PPP loan thru Mnuchin for 960,000 and promptly goes out and buys a yacht with it. A few other notable PPP loans that were forgiven. Bunch of hypocrites..
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fa83TexUIAE ... me=900x900
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Neither college attendees, nor universities, need further subsidy.

The subsidies are the reason why college costs so much. Full stop. A college education can be very low cost, and generally is, in many countries. Let’s take the greed out of it.


It’s NOT greed, universities are incentivized to raise tuition, room, board and fees by the Federal loan guarantee program. New student shows up, high cost, we got a loan for you! Stop that, competition and smart shopping will sort out the cost problem quickly. I live in an area with five large and expensive colleges complete with ice rinksm horse boarding facilities, upscale shopping, luxury living. Take away the Uncle Sam money.

I won't go so far as to say the education industry (and it is an industry at the higher level), the reality it is ignorant students believing to pay whatever for "their dream school" (or often just whatever school they got into) and being able to access large dollar loans that are just not offered otherwise. There is no real pre-qualification other than going to a school, and they have to do very little for it. The only thing they have to deal with is some far off (four or more years is a looong time to someone who is 18) requirement to start paying it back, how hard can that be?

They have no experience with what life costs, the real expenses that are involved. And the first loan, likely $7-$10000, amount to only like $100/per month when due, that's not too bad. But the long term thinking isn't there... The additional years and loans suddenly become $3-$400/month if not more.

No, it's not the universities that cause it, it is much worse and more pernicious: It is hope and dreams.

Free money is always dangerous money and should be handled with care. It usually has a catch.

Tugg
 
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Tugger
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:38 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
I find it comical, all of the red hat wearing republicans yelling and screaming out this. Now how many of them were given PPP loans and never paid them back. Marjorie Three Toes crying about the student loan forgiveness yet takes out a 180,000 PPP loan that she doesn't pay back. Tom Brady gets a PPP loan thru Mnuchin for 960,000 and promptly goes out and buys a yacht with it. A few other notable PPP loans that were forgiven. Bunch of hypocrites..
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fa83TexUIAE ... me=900x900

I get that the hue and cry is disingenuous and especially so from those that have money and take advantage of the system to get free money. But that doesn't negate that this is a bad idea and the fact that what is being is not well crafted or targeted to minimize costs and maximize benefits.

Many of the loans that will be forgiven likely weren't going to be paid back anyway, so the financial "hit" is not as big as people are claiming. But any action taken should have focused exclusively on those situations. For me, if you are going to do something like this, have a limit like $40000 in income, not $125000, and loans that are at least five years old with three years of significant missed payments (got to get past the COVID pause) etc. That way you are just clearing the books so to speak of loans that were dead already and no one could ague this was "adding to the debt" cause it was coming anyway.

Do smart and targeted things if you are going to do something.

Of course I still don't support it that much as I think of the millions of students that worked their way through school (even those that dropped out and didn't complete). This is a complete slap in the face to those students. Hell if you are going to target, go for these students, the ones that are earning less than... say $60000 per year with 2 or more years of schooling and provide them interest free loans of up to $10000 to help them but not burden them, you can even make the legislation include a provision that they are like school loans and not eligible for bankruptcy.

But this? This is just not done in anyway that is really good.

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:34 am

Tugger wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
I find it comical, all of the red hat wearing republicans yelling and screaming out this. Now how many of them were given PPP loans and never paid them back. Marjorie Three Toes crying about the student loan forgiveness yet takes out a 180,000 PPP loan that she doesn't pay back. Tom Brady gets a PPP loan thru Mnuchin for 960,000 and promptly goes out and buys a yacht with it. A few other notable PPP loans that were forgiven. Bunch of hypocrites..
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fa83TexUIAE ... me=900x900

I get that the hue and cry is disingenuous and especially so from those that have money and take advantage of the system to get free money. But that doesn't negate that this is a bad idea and the fact that what is being is not well crafted or targeted to minimize costs and maximize benefits.

Many of the loans that will be forgiven likely weren't going to be paid back anyway, so the financial "hit" is not as big as people are claiming. But any action taken should have focused exclusively on those situations. For me, if you are going to do something like this, have a limit like $40000 in income, not $125000, and loans that are at least five years old with three years of significant missed payments (got to get past the COVID pause) etc. That way you are just clearing the books so to speak of loans that were dead already and no one could ague this was "adding to the debt" cause it was coming anyway.

Do smart and targeted things if you are going to do something.

Of course I still don't support it that much as I think of the millions of students that worked their way through school (even those that dropped out and didn't complete). This is a complete slap in the face to those students. Hell if you are going to target, go for these students, the ones that are earning less than... say $60000 per year with 2 or more years of schooling and provide them interest free loans of up to $10000 to help them but not burden them, you can even make the legislation include a provision that they are like school loans and not eligible for bankruptcy.

But this? This is just not done in anyway that is really good.

Tugg


I find both aspects annoying too - the White House claiming that this is a huge social win (it’s not because of how it was done) and conservatives claiming it’s an elitist money grab (anyone in Congress or with a major social platform who received a PPP loan can kiss our collective ass)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:45 am

I’ll be the consistent conservative—all this free money should have never be handed out—-corporate tax breaks, PPP, subsidies of all types including those hidden in the IRS regulations and tax law. It’s how we have $30 trillion in debt that will only be paid with massive inflation over years.
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:46 am

stratosphere wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

But, it’s not helping the working class—they didn’t go to college, they learned a trade or do factory work and will be paying the taxes for this handout. Every study shows the benefits accrue to the upper middle class.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... -benefits/


Of course, what conservative media loves to ignore is that 40% of those possessing student debt never graduated. Earlier this year, when the ceiling was expected to be $75K ($150K joint filing), the NYT estimated that about two-thirds of those receiving relief have no degree. Nearly 5 million people with loans of $10k or less are in default, and around 80% of people with loans but no degree owe $10K or less.

It’s certainly a better, cheaper idea that will help more people than the PPP program…


Well 60% of those with student debt have advanced degrees and why is the limit allowed to be 125k for a single person ? I paid all my student loans working full time and going to school full time and I didn't start making over 100k until late in my life. Anyone who makes over a 100k can pay their damn loans. Not to mention this is not going to address the root problem which is the high cost of college. This will never change especially under the democrats since they are they get the most political contributions from the college world. Attack the root problem and just because you didn't graduate and get your degree is not our problem you took on the debt you own the debt. This is why liberals drive me insane. Personal responsibility never ever comes into play no matter what the issue is


Your conservative republican heroes taking out millions in PPP loans and not paying them back must render you absolutely catatonic huh.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:04 am

Count me in on the "You should pay them back" camp. HOWEVER, I would totally get behind support for any or all of the following:

  1. Cancel interest altogether. If the government wants to make a profit, charge a service fee (either at the time of issue or as part of the payment), but have people pay back principal. We can all agree that at least THAT should be paid. If not, then reduce interest to a fraction of a percentage; have it match the federal rate if needed.
  2. Allow people to do work that counts as a means to eliminate debt. I would think, for example, that working as a teacher or in your community or even for a federal agency should help "pay" that debt. You still get your regular check, but the time served can also "bank" to reduce the amount. Join the military and upon X years, they're forgiven.
  3. Depending on the amount, have a cap out time. For example, say you're $100k in debt on year 0; making minimum payments for 15 years SHOULD have already eliminated the amount but if not, just forgive it, so long as you have a stellar payment record.
  4. Change the structure of how loans are made so that:
    • They don't accrue interest until after graduation or after 7 years of issuance (in case you have folks that are collecting loans for the sake of it without actually graduating)
    • Amortize it all so that they're like a mortgage: one stable rate and a payment plan (would work if it's from the same bank; multiple banks? perhaps have the government collect the debt to accumulate it all, pass it to another agency or bank, and then amortize it as a single payment)

I only had $7000 loan balance...three separate loans from Navient. Balances of each one were manageable but I can't imagine how it must be for students with tens of thousands and being pulled in different ways because each loan is separate and you don't pay the institution, but rather for each loan. You can't put a loan on pause while you pay another and with both public and private loans, there are different rules.

I also support doing more to lower the cost of tuition. I'm still not a proponent of free (nothing is ever free), but there HAS to be a way to rein in the cost. Additional federal support isn't exactly the magic pill here since nothing is stopping colleges from raising tuition as federal support also increases (whether for students or for the university to lower its prices).

Finally, guidance counselors in high school and college should let students know about what going to college means. Want to study flower basket weaving because it's your passion? Have at it; it's a free country...just don't expect people to sympathize when you graduate and find out that there's no demand for flower basket weavers making high five digits. There's no shame in working as a flower basket weaver, but it likely won't pay enough to sustain a living and pay back loans; if you end up as a barista and are not using your degree, you have no one to blame but yourself and society overall should not bail you out from your lack of information.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1921
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:15 am

casinterest wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Neither college attendees, nor universities, need further subsidy.

The subsidies are the reason why college costs so much. Full stop. A college education can be very low cost, and generally is, in many countries. Let’s take the greed out of it.


Why? And let all the collegiate level service jobs go to other countries?


Unlikely. My main reason is I want to see tuitions fall, because I think high tuition is a very serious problem. I would like to see tuition of around $5000-$10,000 per year. To that, we would need to break the addiction to federal (subsidized) loan dollars. Most of which are financed by taxpayer debt, meaning it is just inflation, currency created out of nothing.

Obviously, psychological addictions to federal dollars are very powerful. Colleges and universities are addicted to that money. But this money was NOT sloshing around in the 1960s. University education was MUCH cheaper in the 1960s, adjusted for inflation. And no; “reduced funding” is absolutely not the reason why it costs more now. That is such a crock.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14423
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Cancelling Student Loan Debt

Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:55 am

Here’s an idea just make all levels of education free. It works in many other countries and society benefits from having a better educated population.

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