Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 16041
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:23 pm

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... he-nation/

President Biden's Speech on Sept 1, marked a change in the approach to Trump and his extremists ideals.

Not so coincidentally this speech also marks the end of primary and special election season. It also portends the beginning of campaign season for the November Elections


Biden made many points that posters here have been making for years about Trump and MAGA. He started with the following.

But first, we must be honest with each other and with ourselves.

Too much of what’s happening in our country today is not normal.

Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic.

Now, I want to be very clear — (applause) — very clear up front: Not every Republican, not even the majority of Republicans, are MAGA Republicans. Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology.

I know because I’ve been able to work with these mainstream Republicans.

But there is no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven, and intimidated by Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans, and that is a threat to this country.

These are hard things.

The rest of the speech expanded on this idea while also tying back to Biden's campaign and the democrat's campaign?

The soul of America is defined by the sacred proposition that all are created equal in the image of God. That all are entitled to be treated with decency, dignity, and respect. That all deserve justice and a shot at lives of prosperity and consequence. And that democracy — democracy must be defended, for democracy makes all these things possible. (Applause.) Folks, and it’s up to us.

Democracy begins and will be preserved in we, the people’s, habits of heart, in our character: optimism that is tested
yet endures, courage that digs deep when we need it, empathy that fuels democracy, the willingness to see each other not as enemies but as fellow Americans.



Was it too over the top?
Too Late?
Too Early?
Too Limited in it's application?

Do you think that MAGA can be reigned in or needs to be?
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 2334
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:49 pm

casinterest wrote:
Was it too over the top?


Not at all. The Dems needed to take the bull by the horns just like Trump did when he denigrated them, but also adding that Biden diplomatic touch.

casinterest wrote:
Too Late?


If anything, this approach needed to be taken sooner.

BTW, it's also time to open up a midterms thread.
 
FLYFIRSTCLASS
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:41 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:16 pm

Honestly, I am getting to the point I really don't follow anymore. Neither side even tries to work with the other, all they do is fight and finger point. After one side takes control they just undo everything the other side did and so on and so on. They seem to forget that they WORK FOR US, WE THE PEOPLE! I blame the media to a large extent. They know how to spin stories so if they see a little smoke they dump some gas on the fire and sit back and watch. Remember Walter Cronkite? He just read the news, did not put a spin on it. Just read it and "Thats the way it is".
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:19 pm

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Neither side even tries to work with the other,


That's my view of most political parties in most countries. To be specific to the US, and fairer to the incumbent, it's pretty difficult to work with the other side when their mentor in chief still doesn't recognise you're victory over them.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:20 pm

It was a good speech. For 70% of Americans, it's preaching to the choir. For 30%, Biden is their mortal enemy and they won't change that view.

However it needed to said, just as the Jan 6 committee needs to investigate, just as the National Archives needed to report Trump.

Whether or not it falls on deaf ears, the truth always needs to be spoken. Biden did that last night.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:40 pm

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
They seem to forget that they WORK FOR US, WE THE PEOPLE!

I blame the media to a large extent. They know how to spin stories so if they see a little smoke they dump some gas on the fire and sit back and watch.

Remember Walter Cronkite? He just read the news, did not put a spin on it. Just read it and "Thats the way it is".


All good points. Back then we had true journalists. If they were really good journalists, who demonstrated a commitment to facts and accuracy, they were given the privilege of an editorial segment, that was clearly labeled as such, and separated from the news at the end of the broadcast. Only the cream of the crop got to do that. Cronkite, Murrow, Brinkley, etc.

Today we don't have journalists, we have media personalities, who freely intermingle their opinions with the news. I remember being pretty surprised by the first generation that did that. Wallace, Rather, Brokaw, etc. But they were only jaywalking compared to what goes on today.

Oddly enough, Carl Sagan correctly identified this trend, as well as where it would lead, in his novels. They were considered humor & farce back then, but today we are living it.

I blame the commercialization of news. It has never recovered from the transition from public service, to profit center. The only networks I can bear to watch for any substantial period, are the PBS NewsHour, and BBC News. Judy Woodruff is going to retire soon from the NewsHour, which feels like losing a good friend. Like losing Cronkite. I really hope they will find someone comparable. Robert McNeil and Jim Lerher, who founded the NewsHour, were of similar stature. Today those people are hard to find.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:47 pm

I shared my thoughts in the other thread before this one was started…

Some LOL Courtesy of the Twitter machine …

‘For a group that prides themselves on saying ‘f*ck your feelings!’ to those they don’t agree with, conservatives and GOPers sure are butt hurt about their feelings because of mean words in the speech.’

And …

‘Biden spoke out against fascism and GOPers are treating it as a personal attack’

:rotfl:

But on a serious note -

Given the events of Jan 6. and the staining of the Presidency that the Trump document scandal is generating, the speech was needed - to speak in favour of the rule of law, in defence of doing the right thing, and being honorable and ethical. That is the role of a President and it was good to see Biden do it. That said, it is unfortunate he had to do it in the first place - but the actions of Trump and the MAGA movement called for it.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 19006
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:51 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
I shared my thoughts in the other thread before this one was started…

Some LOL Courtesy of the Twitter machine …

‘For a group that prides themselves on saying ‘f*ck your feelings!’ to those they don’t agree with, conservatives and GOPers sure are butt hurt about their feelings because of mean words in the speech.’

And …

‘Biden spoke out against fascism and GOPers are treating it as a personal attack’

:rotfl:

But on a serious note -

Given the events of Jan 6. and the staining of the Presidency that the Trump document scandal is generating, the speech was needed - to speak in favour of the rule of law, in defence of doing the right thing, and being honorable and ethical. That is the role of a President and it was good to see Biden do it. That said, it is unfortunate he had to do it in the first place - but the actions of Trump and the MAGA movement called for it.

How dare you call the folks that tried to overthrow the government, are in the tank for Putin, tried to hang their own VP, go to Budapest to kibbutz with known fascist Orban THEN invite him to headline CPAC, who hunt down trans kids to take them away from their parents, who can't seem to do anything without pointing a gun at the camera, who cheered when their Messiah proposed banning all Muslims, who can not lose, or win an election without crying fraud, who are the pied piper of more militias than Central America in the 80s...fascist? It's just not fair!

The GOP has been fascist for a very long time, so it's about time we "call it what it is". And Palin lost her race the same week, so all in all it's a positive development for the country.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:20 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
And Palin lost her race the same week, so all in all it's a positive development for the country.


And as expected, Palin has criticized the election and her defeat, claiming that ranked choice voting is crazy, and has disenfranchised 60% of the Alaskan voters.

We can unfortunately expect more of that from the MAGA's in the GOP, during the 2022 general election. It's their new theme, legitimized by Trump. They can no longer lose, they can only be cheated. Just as Biden said in his address. Amusing that Palin was validating his words, even as he spoke them.

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-bl ... am-1739018
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 19006
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:59 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
And Palin lost her race the same week, so all in all it's a positive development for the country.


And as expected, Palin has criticized the election and her defeat, claiming that ranked choice voting is crazy, and has disenfranchised 60% of the Alaskan voters.

We can unfortunately expect more of that from the MAGA's in the GOP, during the 2022 general election. It's their new theme, legitimized by Trump. They can no longer lose, they can only be cheated. Just as Biden said in his address. Amusing that Palin was validating his words, even as he spoke them.

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-bl ... am-1739018

Obviously wasting my breath but who do republicans think chose ranked choice in a republican state?
 
dmg626
Posts: 456
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:09 pm

No F15’s in the maga arsenal so the current government should be safe
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 12222
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:10 pm

dmg626 wrote:
No F15’s in the maga arsenal so the current government should be safe

However there are AR-15's in their arsenal...

Tugg
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8812
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:20 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Obviously wasting my breath but who do republicans think chose ranked choice in a republican state?

Republicans love democracy until it works against them; then it needs to be reformed, until that also backfires...then it's that democracy was working fine before they reformed it.

Of course, if the RCV had produced the results they wanted, everything would be fine and dandy. FWIW, it's not like Alaskans overwhelmingly backed it (it was a 51-49 split), but it WAS put to the voters and majority rules. Oh, silly me...only a majority of whatever number THEY want is a true majority. Just like South Dakota's attempt to redefine a majority to 60% failed (I sincerely hope the Medicaid expansion constitutional amendment passes if only to see SD Rs wriggling in agony at their defeat).
 
User avatar
casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 16041
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:17 am

And sadly, we have some deeply disturbed folks that saw this speech as so threatening, that they are making violent threats against Biden.
https://news.yahoo.com/biden-speech-den ... 39767.html

Site Intelligence Group, which tracks online extremism activity, issued several threat alerts detailing calls for violence in response to Biden’s speech. The potential threats were posted in online forums tied to the Proud Boys, neo-Nazis and other extremist groups.

“Users on several far-right and ultranationalist venues made violent threats against President Joe Biden following his speech addressing political extremism on September 1, 2022,” said one of the alerts. “Users advocated for Biden to be murdered and predicted violence if he continues speaking about the topic.”



It does seem to prove the point that Biden was making though.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Topic Author
Posts: 16041
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:19 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Was it too over the top?


Not at all. The Dems needed to take the bull by the horns just like Trump did when he denigrated them, but also adding that Biden diplomatic touch.

casinterest wrote:
Too Late?


If anything, this approach needed to be taken sooner.

BTW, it's also time to open up a midterms thread.



I figure the midterms can wait, but this definably was the cavalry horn that we are here.
I imagine, online, tv, and radio ads will be insufferable in the battleground areas.

I just feel like Biden needed to say something a lot sooner instead of coddling MAGA.
 
Vintage
Posts: 872
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:25 am

casinterest wrote:
I just feel like Biden needed to say something a lot sooner instead of coddling MAGA.

After all those years in the Senate, there's one thing we can expect Biden to be good at: political timing.
This guy has lived and breathed election cycles for four decades.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:46 am

I think Biden's strategy has been to stand above the muck and let it sort itself out, which normally would be a reasonable approach. Having established what Trump did, and how he behaved, prior to Jan 6, should have been enough for everyone to understand what he is.

However the lack of traction within the MAGA group, has been both stunning and revealing. If anyone had any doubt that MAGA was a cult, it should be gone now. I kind of wish Biden had used that language more in his speech.

But in any case, the belief that it will sort itself had to be abandoned. As Biden said, you have to stand up for the truth, and saying/doing nothing doesn't help.

At the same time, it's certain that those who profit from lies, will always defend them. We saw that on Jan 6, and we will see it again in the next election cycle. But maybe it can be limited with a proactive approach. We can all do our part by refuting the lies when we see them spoken or written. Regardless of whether or not that is accepted.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21466
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:56 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
And Palin lost her race the same week, so all in all it's a positive development for the country.


And as expected, Palin has criticized the election and her defeat, claiming that ranked choice voting is crazy, and has disenfranchised 60% of the Alaskan voters.

We can unfortunately expect more of that from the MAGA's in the GOP, during the 2022 general election. It's their new theme, legitimized by Trump. They can no longer lose, they can only be cheated. Just as Biden said in his address. Amusing that Palin was validating his words, even as he spoke them.

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-bl ... am-1739018

Obviously wasting my breath but who do republicans think chose ranked choice in a republican state?


I really do enjoy a large dose of irony. :rotfl:
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:13 am

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Remember Walter Cronkite? He just read the news, did not put a spin on it. Just read it and "Thats the way it is".


Nah - Cronkite definitely did put his spin on things. He declared after the 1968 Tet offensive in Vietnam that the war was mired in stalemate” and America’s only option was to negotiate a treaty with the North Vietnamese, going against the official US government line the VC had been badly defeated in the battle. LBJ said “if I’ve lost Cronkite then I’ve lost Mr And Mrs Middle America”.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:30 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Remember Walter Cronkite? He just read the news, did not put a spin on it. Just read it and "Thats the way it is".


Nah - Cronkite definitely did put his spin on things. He declared after the 1968 Tet offensive in Vietnam that the war was mired in stalemate” and America’s only option was to negotiate a treaty with the North Vietnamese, going against the official US government line the VC had been badly defeated in the battle. LBJ said “if I’ve lost Cronkite then I’ve lost Mr And Mrs Middle America”.


In fairness, and as mentioned above, Cronkite made those remarks in his editorial segments, which used to occur at the end of news broadcasts, and were clearly labeled as such. Much in the same manner newspapers have an editorial page, to separate opinion from the news.

In his anchoring of the news, Cronkite was pretty rigorous about keeping opinion separate, as was the journalistic standard at that time. A very far cry from what goes on today in broadcast news.
 
GDB
Posts: 16184
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:46 am

Avatar2go wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Remember Walter Cronkite? He just read the news, did not put a spin on it. Just read it and "Thats the way it is".


Nah - Cronkite definitely did put his spin on things. He declared after the 1968 Tet offensive in Vietnam that the war was mired in stalemate” and America’s only option was to negotiate a treaty with the North Vietnamese, going against the official US government line the VC had been badly defeated in the battle. LBJ said “if I’ve lost Cronkite then I’ve lost Mr And Mrs Middle America”.


In fairness, and as mentioned above, Cronkite made those remarks in his editorial segments, which used to occur at the end of news broadcasts, and were clearly labeled as such. Much in the same manner newspapers have an editorial page, to separate opinion from the news.

In his anchoring of the news, Cronkite was pretty rigorous about keeping opinion separate, as was the journalistic standard at that time. A very far cry from what goes on today in broadcast news.


He was also a highly experienced journalist, who had seen much of war.
So on his own segment, he called BS.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 15982
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:39 am

Virtual737 wrote:
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Neither side even tries to work with the other,


That's my view of most political parties in most countries. To be specific to the US, and fairer to the incumbent, it's pretty difficult to work with the other side when their mentor in chief still doesn't recognise you're victory over them.


But in many other Western countries (not all, the US has influence after all) opposing parties can at least agree about the problems. For example right wing parties in most of Europe have no issue with admitting climate change is real and human caused. Disagreeing about how to tackle issues is the essence of politics, but if you can't even agree about the issues...

Was there any problem with abortion in the US ? Yet it has been a focal point of elections for decades.

Is there a problem with firearms in the US ? Obviously yes, except for the Republicans.

Etc.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:13 am

Aesma wrote:

But in many other Western countries (not all, the US has influence after all) opposing parties can at least agree about the problems. For example right wing parties in most of Europe have no issue with admitting climate change is real and human caused. Disagreeing about how to tackle issues is the essence of politics, but if you can't even agree about the issues...

Was there any problem with abortion in the US ? Yet it has been a focal point of elections for decades.

Is there a problem with firearms in the US ? Obviously yes, except for the Republicans.

Etc.


Yes, this is the root of the problem in the US, the inability to agree on basic facts, and instead pushing an emotional narrative that revolves around personal beliefs.

Kellyanne Conway was perhaps the first to defend this openly, by referencing "alternative facts". That wasn't said in jest, she really believes this. If the facts don't support your position, you can invent alternate facts that do, and that is perfectly reasonable within political discourse.

Trump absolutely loved her for that, for obvious reasons, as it enabled him to push narratives that were demonstrably false. Which he is still doing to this day.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5638
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:51 pm

70% of Americans would like some gun control. I suggest looking at Dodge City circa 1900
70% of Americans say women and their doctors should be free to decide about abortion, even though many of those 70% are personally opposed to abortion
A huge percent of Americans (most of us are fellow immigrants) favor treating immigrants like human beings
A huge percent of Americans like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid
A huge percent of Americans think the very rich and corporations should pay more income taxes. Say the amounts that were assessed the the 1960s *
Most Americans believe our infrastructure (built and paid for by those working in the 1940s-1970s) should be maintained and improved (disputes about how to pay for it)
A huge percent of Americans believe that all citizens should find it easy to cast their ballots

Republicans, obedient to the MAGAs and other extreme fascist groups, oppose all of the above

*JFK declared the very high taxes which got America out of the depression and won WWII needed to be lowered, and he and the Democrats with Republican votes did so.

Huge - way over 50%
 
phluser
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:15 pm

As I might agree with Biden with intent, I don't view his speech as benefiting Democrats. But, I'm not surprised that despite offering unity, he found another group to push further away (while they energize against him). He already has turned away many unvaccinated people, including unvaccinated Democrats that voted for Obama.

I don't think all MAGAs are like the Jan 6 insurrection MAGAs. Many Republicans who claim to be MAGA liked Trump's policies but admit his actions or what came out of his mouth was garbage but still claim to be MAGA. So, Biden stating MAGA Republicans are extremists is going to energize Republicans together.

MAGAs are the new conservatives which outnumber the old conservatives (e.g. Liz Cheney), the latter, proving to be a very small group.

It's like not all liberals are extreme liberals either, so if a Trump or DeSantis were to gie a speech against liberals, it'd be just as divisive.
 
marcelh
Posts: 2177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:15 pm

phluser wrote:
I don't think all MAGAs are like the Jan 6 insurrection MAGAs. Many Republicans who claim to be MAGA liked Trump's policies but admit his actions or what came out of his mouth was garbage but still claim to be MAGA. So, Biden stating MAGA Republicans are extremists is going to energize Republicans together.

MAGAs are the new conservatives which outnumber the old conservatives (e.g. Liz Cheney), the latter, proving to be a very small.


You can’t be “a bit MAGA”; either people voted for him in the 2020 election, or they didn’t. They may have been ignorant in 2016, they very well knew what they voted for in 2020.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21466
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:24 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
70% of Americans say women and their doctors should be free to decide about abortion, even though many of those 70% are personally opposed to abortion


This is something that many pro-lifers cannot get their collective heads around. It's possible and entirely reasonable to be opposed to abortion, but at the same time support a woman's right to chose. It would be nice to live in a society where abortion wasn't necessary, sadly we're not very close to that.
 
Caryjack
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 9:45 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:50 am

Apparently ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox News refused to carry the speech because it was too political and too close to an election.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... -political

It looks like a few may have seen it on MSNBC, but not so much on CNN.
https://www.nationalmediaspots.com/top- ... iewers.php
https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/here-ar ... 22/510090/
 
victrola
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:58 am

phluser wrote:
As I might agree with Biden with intent, I don't view his speech as benefiting Democrats. But, I'm not surprised that despite offering unity, he found another group to push further away (while they energize against him). He already has turned away many unvaccinated people, including unvaccinated Democrats that voted for Obama.

I don't think all MAGAs are like the Jan 6 insurrection MAGAs. Many Republicans who claim to be MAGA liked Trump's policies but admit his actions or what came out of his mouth was garbage but still claim to be MAGA. So, Biden stating MAGA Republicans are extremists is going to energize Republicans together.

MAGAs are the new conservatives which outnumber the old conservatives (e.g. Liz Cheney), the latter, proving to be a very small group.

It's like not all liberals are extreme liberals either, so if a Trump or DeSantis were to gie a speech against liberals, it'd be just as divisive.



Nonsense. The only people Biden pissed off with his speech were already raving MATA fanatics. These raving lunatics can only vote once, Let the gloves come off.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:13 am

phluser wrote:
As I might agree with Biden with intent, I don't view his speech as benefiting Democrats. But, I'm not surprised that despite offering unity, he found another group to push further away (while they energize against him). He already has turned away many unvaccinated people, including unvaccinated Democrats that voted for Obama.

I don't think all MAGAs are like the Jan 6 insurrection MAGAs. Many Republicans who claim to be MAGA liked Trump's policies but admit his actions or what came out of his mouth was garbage but still claim to be MAGA. So, Biden stating MAGA Republicans are extremists is going to energize Republicans together.

MAGAs are the new conservatives which outnumber the old conservatives (e.g. Liz Cheney), the latter, proving to be a very small group.

It's like not all liberals are extreme liberals either, so if a Trump or DeSantis were to gie a speech against liberals, it'd be just as divisive.


Agree with you that there is a spectrum within the MAGA movement, just as in all others. It's not homogeneous.

I think where the problem comes in, and what Biden tried to address, is the failure to denounce Trump, his false statements, or his actions and policies. If they did that openly, and tried to develop or embrace other leadership, the MAGA movement would not be inexorably tied to Trump.

Instead, the attitude seems to be tolerance for any and all Trump shenanigans, because that is better than the alternative of Democratic leadership. But that ignores the obvious alternative, which is to discredit Trump and promote better GOP leaders.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:43 am

I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.
 
Vintage
Posts: 872
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:55 am

flyguy89 wrote:
…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.

Biden merely acknowledged the division that Trump has created.
Biden was targeting the 'base', who are off in their own world anyway.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 2:22 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.


Don't know how you could define the problem without calling it out. Biden merely spoke the truth, which has been obvious for some time.

As Vintage said, he was never going to reach the hardline Trump base. But he encouraged the remainder of the GOP to reject those principles. I don't think that was divisive.

If they stood up for themselves and offered a conservative message that wasn't based on the Trump false view of the world, I think that would be welcomed by all sides (except Trump and his followers, of course).
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24938
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:36 am

Avatar2go wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.


Don't know how you could define the problem without calling it out. Biden merely spoke the truth, which has been obvious for some time.

As Vintage said, he was never going to reach the hardline Trump base. But he encouraged the remainder of the GOP to reject those principles. I don't think that was divisive.

If they stood up for themselves and offered a conservative message that wasn't based on the Trump false view of the world, I think that would be welcomed by all sides (except Trump and his followers, of course).


We have one of our candidates here in Oregon doing just that. She is going back to Reagan messaging. Democrats have messed up because government bad. She has thrown in "violence in the streets" a couple of times, but has not really hit on it. I am still not going to vote for her but I respect that she is campaigning on a more Republican platform and less of a MAGA platform.
 
scottyraven
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:49 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:02 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.

trump voters are so far gone, it doesnt matter what Biden does or says. Please tell me how to unite with or bring into the fold people who believe and spread lies like qanon, that Democrats drink baby blood and hate America?
Its time to stop coddling and thinking magats are redeemable, magats need to be relegated to the fringes of society where they belong. Just look at the morons in the above mentioned Jordan Klepper videos.....there's no coming back for those idiots. They cant be reformed, period.
Callling Biden's speech dividing is the same as playing the "both sides are bad" card. It's the lasts defense of those who try to defend the indefensible.
 
User avatar
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:39 am

scottyraven wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.

trump voters are so far gone, it doesnt matter what Biden does or says. Please tell me how to unite with or bring into the fold people who believe and spread lies like qanon, that Democrats drink baby blood and hate America?
Its time to stop coddling and thinking magats are redeemable, magats need to be relegated to the fringes of society where they belong. Just look at the morons in the above mentioned Jordan Klepper videos.....there's no coming back for those idiots. They cant be reformed, period.
Callling Biden's speech dividing is the same as playing the "both sides are bad" card. It's the lasts defense of those who try to defend the indefensible.


It’s utterly baffling to me that in the wake of Trump’s 2020 defeat, the Jan 6 events, the Mar a Lago raid, etc there hasn’t been a more visible effort within the Republican Party to distance themselves from that whole shitshow and promote a “new wave” of candidates who bluster on about “getting back to Reagan” or whatever classical conservative platitudes they so choose. Frankly, I’m surprised that they haven’t tried to groom a conservative answer to Obama. Any Republican would bristle at that suggestion, but a young, charismatic conservative up and comer, say, socially right-moderate but fiscally conservative might go a long way towards pushing the Trump fiasco out of the minds of more centerist voters. I say that as someone who most Americans would place firmly on the “radical left.” Just a thought, back to flyering for my local ANTIFA bake sale…
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:08 am

If you want to understand the dangers of MAGA-ism, you can look to countries that operate on cults of personality.

In Iraq, political power doesn't reside with the government, but with clerics who have large followings that include armed militias. Recently in response to their cleric (al-Sadr) being insulted by a fellow cleric in Iran (with regard to his political activities), his militia took to the streets, occupied government buildings, and engaged in armed clashes with the government and other competing militias. Dozens of people were killed.

And al-Sadr did nothing to stop this, until an even more powerful cleric (al-Sistani) intervened with al-Sadr, who then finally recalled his followers.

Those events have a recognizable analogy in the US, to those of Jan 6. Although the clerics have a religious basis of power, and in the US it's more secular, the basic principles at work are the same. Loyalty to the person, rather than the nation.

The US believed they could supplant the cleric system in Iraq, with a democratic government, but the reality is those systems are extremely difficult to overturn, once established. We see this also in the continued MAGA support of Trump, despite substantial evidence of wrongdoing.

The founding fathers saw the dangers inherent to systems of political loyalty to an individual, and guarded against that with a democracy protected by a Constitution. We tend to take that for granted, believing that progress is unidirectional, and regression won't occur. But the MAGA movement shows that those dangers still exist. Biden is right when he says democracy must be defended.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 022-09-03/
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:40 am

[threeid][/threeid]
scottyraven wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.

trump voters are so far gone, it doesnt matter what Biden does or says. Please tell me how to unite with or bring into the fold people who believe and spread lies like qanon, that Democrats drink baby blood and hate America?
Its time to stop coddling and thinking magats are redeemable, magats need to be relegated to the fringes of society where they belong. Just look at the morons in the above mentioned Jordan Klepper videos.....there's no coming back for those idiots. They cant be reformed, period.
Callling Biden's speech dividing is the same as playing the "both sides are bad" card. It's the lasts defense of those who try to defend the indefensible.

You’re talking about nearly half the electorate. I absolutely detest Trump as well as his more rabid supporters…but glibly writing off and chastising half the electorate is not the answer either.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11510
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:44 am

IMO, attempting to reach out to the MAGA crowd would be taken to be a sign of weakness.

Better strategy is to try to divide the opposition.

Come 2024, Democrats face MAGA and Republicans.

Result Democrats get more votes than either of them.
 
FGITD
Posts: 2184
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:14 am

we are once again at the “but why don’t the dems make peace, and try to reach across the aisle?” Phase.

Yet when the president or majority leader has an R next to their name, the only words of advice are “elections have consequences, facts don’t care about your feelings, put up better candidates “ etc etc.

You know, I’m actually ok with not trying to placate the people who tried to overthrow election results. I’m good without them
 
bennett123
Posts: 11510
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:30 am

flyguy89 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
scottyraven wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.

trump voters are so far gone, it doesnt matter what Biden does or says. Please tell me how to unite with or bring into the fold people who believe and spread lies like qanon, that Democrats drink baby blood and hate America?
Its time to stop coddling and thinking magats are redeemable, magats need to be relegated to the fringes of society where they belong. Just look at the morons in the above mentioned Jordan Klepper videos.....there's no coming back for those idiots. They cant be reformed, period.
Callling Biden's speech dividing is the same as playing the "both sides are bad" card. It's the lasts defense of those who try to defend the indefensible.

You’re talking about nearly half the electorate. I absolutely detest Trump as well as his more rabid supporters…but glibly writing off and chastising half the electorate is not the answer either.


Are 50% of the voters MAGA?.

How do you propose to reach out to them without energising Trump in 2024?.
 
Vintage
Posts: 872
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:35 am

flyguy89 wrote:
You’re talking about nearly half the electorate. I absolutely detest Trump as well as his more rabid supporters…but glibly writing off and chastising half the electorate is not the answer either.

The MAGA crowd is nowhere near half the electorate; they are about 40% of the Republicans who are less than 50% of the electorate, so they are 20 -25% of the total electorate. They are unreachable, they aren't worthy of consideration, nor is it necessary to sway even one of them in order to win national elections.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:40 am

bennett123 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
scottyraven wrote:
trump voters are so far gone, it doesnt matter what Biden does or says. Please tell me how to unite with or bring into the fold people who believe and spread lies like qanon, that Democrats drink baby blood and hate America?
Its time to stop coddling and thinking magats are redeemable, magats need to be relegated to the fringes of society where they belong. Just look at the morons in the above mentioned Jordan Klepper videos.....there's no coming back for those idiots. They cant be reformed, period.
Callling Biden's speech dividing is the same as playing the "both sides are bad" card. It's the lasts defense of those who try to defend the indefensible.

You’re talking about nearly half the electorate. I absolutely detest Trump as well as his more rabid supporters…but glibly writing off and chastising half the electorate is not the answer either.


Are 50% of the voters MAGA?.

How do you propose to reach out to them without energising Trump in 2024?.

46.9% of voters cast their ballot for Trump in the last election. Can’t say I really know the answer, but for the past 6-8 years we’ve had both sides writing off the other and further galvanizing their respective partisans…and obviously that’s not working.
 
Vintage
Posts: 872
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:47 am

flyguy89 wrote:
46.9% of voters cast their ballot for Trump in the last election. Can’t say I really know the answer, but for the past 6-8 years we’ve had both sides writing off the other and further galvanizing their respective partisans…and obviously that’s not working.
Not everyone who voted for Trump was a MAGA crazy. A great many of them were conservatives who had no other choice but to vote for Trump.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:56 am

Vintage wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
46.9% of voters cast their ballot for Trump in the last election. Can’t say I really know the answer, but for the past 6-8 years we’ve had both sides writing off the other and further galvanizing their respective partisans…and obviously that’s not working.
Not everyone who voted for Trump was a MAGA crazy. A great many of them were conservatives who had no other choice but to vote for Trump.

You’d never know it from the general discourse today with regard to Trump voters.
 
Vintage
Posts: 872
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:14 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Vintage wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
46.9% of voters cast their ballot for Trump in the last election. Can’t say I really know the answer, but for the past 6-8 years we’ve had both sides writing off the other and further galvanizing their respective partisans…and obviously that’s not working.
Not everyone who voted for Trump was a MAGA crazy. A great many of them were conservatives who had no other choice but to vote for Trump.

You’d never know it from the general discourse today with regard to Trump voters.

Because the media and everyone else focuses on the crazies.
Trump doesn't draw overwhelming crowds to his rallies.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:02 am

flyguy89 wrote:
46.9% of voters cast their ballot for Trump in the last election. Can’t say I really know the answer, but for the past 6-8 years we’ve had both sides writing off the other and further galvanizing their respective partisans…and obviously that’s not working.


Again you are correct about the trend toward polarization on both sides. I think Biden addressed that when he talked about working with Republicans, and that conservatism was not the problem, or the enemy. The problem is the MAGA disregard for the rules of honest discourse, law, & democracy, which specifically mirror those characteristics within Trump.

Which goes back to the earlier point, why doesn't the GOP stand up against those things? It's not like they don't have experienced people who share their values, but not the behaviors of Trump. Why are those people being marginalized within the party, instead of the more radical Trump/MAGA being marginalized?

I think this is the issue to which Biden was speaking. The GOP can do much better than Trump, so why aren't they? I don't find that divisive, nor do I think divisiveness was the intent.

If we are truly honest, the answer is that the GOP recognizes that Trumpism can help them win elections, because he incites and motivates the base to vote. But what is the cost of winning, if the result is putting him, or people like him that he endorses, in power? How far is the GOP willing to go in their deal with the devil?

I think Biden was saying, you don't have to do this, you don't need the devil, you can stand up for your own values, with your own candidates. You can denounce the devil and still have a viable party.

To do that requires moral backbone. Biden was encouraging them to find theirs.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24938
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:14 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
46.9% of voters cast their ballot for Trump in the last election. Can’t say I really know the answer, but for the past 6-8 years we’ve had both sides writing off the other and further galvanizing their respective partisans…and obviously that’s not working.


Again you are correct about the trend toward polarization on both sides. I think Biden addressed that when he talked about working with Republicans, and that conservatism was not the problem, or the enemy. The problem is the MAGA disregard for the rules of honest discourse, law, & democracy, which specifically mirror those characteristics within Trump.

Which goes back to the earlier point, why doesn't the GOP stand up against those things? It's not like they don't have experienced people who share their values, but not the behaviors of Trump. Why are those people being marginalized within the party, instead of the more radical Trump/MAGA being marginalized?

I think this is the issue to which Biden was speaking. The GOP can do much better than Trump, so why aren't they? I don't find that divisive, nor do I think divisiveness was the intent.

If we are truly honest, the answer is that the GOP recognizes that Trumpism can help them win elections, because he incites and motivates the base to vote. But what is the cost of winning, if the result is putting him, or people like him that he endorses, in power? How far is the GOP willing to go in their deal with the devil?

I think Biden was saying, you don't have to do this, you don't need the devil, you can stand up for your own values, with your own candidates. You can denounce the devil and still have a viable party.

To do that requires moral backbone. Biden was encouraging them to find theirs.


Where is the "both sides do it" when one side has a leader encouraging the opposition party to find responsible candidates with the opposition party's values? MAGA Republicans have been working to discourage voting from everyone outside the MAGA bubble. How is that "both sides"?
 
bluecrew
Posts: 493
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:13 am

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I mean, great speech if you’re a Dem and Biden voter as you can see from the responses here. Less so if the intent was to welcome additional Trump voters and defect. One of the things I hated most about Trump is that he was a divider not a uniter…disappointing to see Biden isn’t really changing that course for the presidency.


Don't know how you could define the problem without calling it out. Biden merely spoke the truth, which has been obvious for some time.

As Vintage said, he was never going to reach the hardline Trump base. But he encouraged the remainder of the GOP to reject those principles. I don't think that was divisive.

If they stood up for themselves and offered a conservative message that wasn't based on the Trump false view of the world, I think that would be welcomed by all sides (except Trump and his followers, of course).


We have one of our candidates here in Oregon doing just that. She is going back to Reagan messaging. Democrats have messed up because government bad. She has thrown in "violence in the streets" a couple of times, but has not really hit on it. I am still not going to vote for her but I respect that she is campaigning on a more Republican platform and less of a MAGA platform.

And yet... I'm sure you saw her website before the Dobbs decision. The policies she wants to talk about and her messaging have evolved along with the political scene. So, not as tone deaf as Team Weird.

I've been hearing the "both sides" narrative from my conservative friends, and I've been trying something posted here in another thread. "Your homework assignment is to describe socialism in your own words, and give an example of how Joe Biden is trying to implement it."
Naturally, there's a lot of whinging, whataboutism, and claims that "it's not even Biden, it's the democrat deep state." I think one was a few breaths away from claiming Huma Abedin was running the show.

Even having a reasonable conversation is getting impossible.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5638
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:12 pm

I am guessing on the following regarding those who vote Republican. About 5% of all voters are out and out Nazi thugs, and like the idea of a maximum leader who will persecute the 'other'. Another 5% are out and out racists. Another 5% are AR-15 angry old white men of a variety of ages. There is some overlap and the total of these voters are maybe 10% of all voters in the US. Republicans currently cannot win statewide elections without them. Hence senate seats and the presidency cannot be won without bowing down and supporting them. Any compromise and they go nuts. My further suspicion is that when and if Republicans become a center right party they will lose big for about two election cycles, after which they will once again procure some big wins. Most Americans have a lot of sympathy for the conservative take on many issues - just not a extremist take on those same issues.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: art, bpatus297, DH106, flyguy89, leader1, StarAC17, victrola and 22 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos