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bennett123
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:29 pm

Question is if the choice is MAGA, Democrat or abstain what will people do?.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:51 pm

Here is a really good example of the earlier discussion, about Republicans embracing and defending Trump, instead of rejecting him. Note the responses given here:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-a ... d=89269805

He hits the same talking points as in this thread. Biden is divisive. Both sides are guilty. The DoJ/FBI can't be trusted. Trump has special privileges. Not all the facts are in.

All of which are arguably false.

If you compare Trump's statements in the Pennsylvania rally, to Biden's address, calling Biden the divisive one, is patently absurd. Like not even within the realm of reality.

Yet here we have again, the GOP mounting a defense of the indefensible. Why?
 
Vintage
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:59 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Question is if the choice is MAGA, Democrat or abstain what will people do?.

I believe that a lot of Conservatives (and Libertarians) will abstain.

I think that voting for Trump just to protest the Dem candidate lost a lot of its luster after 2016.
I am convinced that he won then because of many votes from people who didn't expect (or want) him to win.
 
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seb146
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:23 am

bluecrew wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

Don't know how you could define the problem without calling it out. Biden merely spoke the truth, which has been obvious for some time.

As Vintage said, he was never going to reach the hardline Trump base. But he encouraged the remainder of the GOP to reject those principles. I don't think that was divisive.

If they stood up for themselves and offered a conservative message that wasn't based on the Trump false view of the world, I think that would be welcomed by all sides (except Trump and his followers, of course).


We have one of our candidates here in Oregon doing just that. She is going back to Reagan messaging. Democrats have messed up because government bad. She has thrown in "violence in the streets" a couple of times, but has not really hit on it. I am still not going to vote for her but I respect that she is campaigning on a more Republican platform and less of a MAGA platform.

And yet... I'm sure you saw her website before the Dobbs decision. The policies she wants to talk about and her messaging have evolved along with the political scene. So, not as tone deaf as Team Weird.

I've been hearing the "both sides" narrative from my conservative friends, and I've been trying something posted here in another thread. "Your homework assignment is to describe socialism in your own words, and give an example of how Joe Biden is trying to implement it."
Naturally, there's a lot of whinging, whataboutism, and claims that "it's not even Biden, it's the democrat deep state." I think one was a few breaths away from claiming Huma Abedin was running the show.

Even having a reasonable conversation is getting impossible.


There are extremists in the Republican party and they are clearly running the show. But, I also believe there are a few Republicans who saw what happened and realized what a horrible thing this was. Listening to Christine Drazen (Oregon's Republican nominee for governor) she is trying to be moderate but also trying to not make the MAGA base angry. She knows how to speak to her party. But, she can not speak to all of Oregon. I think that speaks to a larger issue in the Republican party. They can either go with the MAGA wing or they can go with the majority. Unfortunately for the Republican party, many of them choose to go with the MAGA wing.

Also, this talk about "both sides bowing to extremes"... let's talk about that for a hot minute. The MAGA extreme is still supporting overthrowing the government because their party didn't win a majority and calling for open warfare because their leader might be arrested for legitimate crimes while the other extreme wants health care for all, education for all, a living wage, a chicken in every pot, a Chevy in every driveway while NOT demanding the execution of elected officials after 2016 elections and NOT demanding there were millions of fake votes.... Yeah... both sides do it....
 
GDB
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:32 am

A wider context;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nurture-it

Still haven't seen the MAGA apologists on the Ukraine threads.
Must be a bit like how Lindbergh felt on December 11th 1941.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:10 pm

GDB wrote:
A wider context;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nurture-it

Still haven't seen the MAGA apologists on the Ukraine threads.
Must be a bit like how Lindbergh felt on December 11th 1941.


Interesting to question that with Trump observing Putin and Xi solidifying power to themselves alone, would he not attempt the same thing in the US? He has mentioned in the past that he believes term limits might not apply to him.

And what would that mean for Ukraine, Taiwan and the free world, if Trump followed through on his criticisms? Would he agree with Putin to withdraw support from NATO & Ukraine? Would he agree with Xi to withdraw support from Taiwan?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:14 pm

Vintage wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I just feel like Biden needed to say something a lot sooner instead of coddling MAGA.

After all those years in the Senate, there's one thing we can expect Biden to be good at: political timing.
This guy has lived and breathed election cycles for four decades.


Yes, and it seems the GOP has walked right into the trap with Trump's speech over the weekend highlighting that Biden was indeed correct in his pointed statement.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:07 am

The speech and its aftermath can be summed up as follows:

Trump Republicans: F**k Joe Biden
Joe Biden to Trump Republicans: Well, f**k you too
Trump Republicans: *clutching their pearls*

All the fainting and pearl clutching is hypocritical. Republicans are complaining about how Joe Biden ran on uniting the country and how the speech does anything but, except it's hard to find unity with people who have made it their very goal to not even acknowledge and recognize the man's legitimacy (which is ironic, because most of them believe the election was stolen so what does it matter if "an impostor" is calling them names?).

When it comes to calling a spade, a spade...in the words of Lizzo: "It's about damn time".
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:02 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Here is a really good example of the earlier discussion, about Republicans embracing and defending Trump, instead of rejecting him. Note the responses given here:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-a ... d=89269805

He hits the same talking points as in this thread. Biden is divisive. Both sides are guilty. The DoJ/FBI can't be trusted. Trump has special privileges. Not all the facts are in.

All of which are arguably false.

If you compare Trump's statements in the Pennsylvania rally, to Biden's address, calling Biden the divisive one, is patently absurd. Like not even within the realm of reality.

Yet here we have again, the GOP mounting a defense of the indefensible. Why?


This guy puts it pretty succinctly: cowardly acquiescence. They know it's wrong, but the base is too large and too fired up to ignore. Makes it easy to fundraise no matter what kind of BS you have to spew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LykLRBQQjoQ

The danger in that is they stopped caring what might be good, not only for the country, but society as a whole.

The communications from the GOP party mouthpiece are just beyond belief - 1930s vintage propaganda.

https://twitter.com/GOPChairwoman/statu ... mUs6V7w5lg
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:27 am

Ronna enables Trump's stranglehold on campaign financing power over the GOP. The fact that she remains the chairperson of the RNC, as an election denier, is troubling.

She does fundraising based on the big lie, and then channels a significant fraction of the funds to the big liar. That should be a major red flag within the party. But again, where are the Republicans that stand up?
 
Redd
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:12 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
Was it too over the top?


Not at all. The Dems needed to take the bull by the horns just like Trump did when he denigrated them, but also adding that Biden diplomatic touch.

[/quote]

How will the Democrats know how to identify a bull? It could be a cow, a mooooor, or even non cownairy. These are tricky times the Democrats have invented.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4690
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:26 am

Redd wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Was it too over the top?


Not at all. The Dems needed to take the bull by the horns just like Trump did when he denigrated them, but also adding that Biden diplomatic touch.

How will the Democrats know how to identify a bull? It could be a cow, a mooooor, or even non cownairy. These are tricky times the Democrats have invented.

The bull has a irrational need to storm through red flags, breaking as much porcelain as it possibly can.
 
Redd
Posts: 1552
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:57 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Redd wrote:

Not at all. The Dems needed to take the bull by the horns just like Trump did when he denigrated them, but also adding that Biden diplomatic touch.

How will the Democrats know how to identify a bull? It could be a cow, a mooooor, or even non cownairy. These are tricky times the Democrats have invented.

The bull has a irrational need to storm through red flags, breaking as much porcelain as it possibly can.



That's quite bullophoic of you, not to mention generalising.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:51 pm

Redd wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The bull has a irrational need to storm through red flags, breaking as much porcelain as it possibly can.


That's quite bullophoic of you, not to mention generalising.


But also quite truthful and accurate. As well as recognizable to anyone who has observed Trump over his tenure as President, and afterwards.

Just has come out that the nuclear documents he had, were for other nations, at the highest level of security and classification. What purpose or interest would he have in those? And would the impact of his using them, not be that of a bull in a china shop?

I suspect those nations would agree with the bull analogy, as would the rest of the world.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:51 pm

Good Article on where things stand.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters ... ld/671355/

For Biden even to mention something like abortion undermined the more important part of his speech, which is that MAGA is a movement that doesn’t believe in anything but violence, chaos, and power. Right-wing pundits have seized on that part of his speech because it was the only thing they could argue with; they know that trying to describe MAGA and Trumpism with any consistency is pointless. Smaller government? More democracy? Power to “We the People”? Good luck with that: Trump just endorsed a GOP candidate for governor, Geoff Diehl in Massachusetts, by telling a crowd that Diehl will “rule your state with an iron fist, and he’ll do what has to be done.”


The MAGA movement isn’t interested in politics, or policies, or compromises. It is interested in destruction and seeing others made as miserable as its followers are. MAGA is a movement of people who seem to be, in so many ways, deeply and profoundly unhappy, and suffering from an emptiness and anger deep in their spirit. There is no political solution for that. All Joe Biden did was finally say this obvious truth out loud.


Could it be True that most MAGA are just empty souls that are unhappy? That their kids and friends leave the horrible world that they have created to move onto better places?
 
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seb146
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:36 am

casinterest wrote:
Good Article on where things stand.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters ... ld/671355/

For Biden even to mention something like abortion undermined the more important part of his speech, which is that MAGA is a movement that doesn’t believe in anything but violence, chaos, and power. Right-wing pundits have seized on that part of his speech because it was the only thing they could argue with; they know that trying to describe MAGA and Trumpism with any consistency is pointless. Smaller government? More democracy? Power to “We the People”? Good luck with that: Trump just endorsed a GOP candidate for governor, Geoff Diehl in Massachusetts, by telling a crowd that Diehl will “rule your state with an iron fist, and he’ll do what has to be done.”


The MAGA movement isn’t interested in politics, or policies, or compromises. It is interested in destruction and seeing others made as miserable as its followers are. MAGA is a movement of people who seem to be, in so many ways, deeply and profoundly unhappy, and suffering from an emptiness and anger deep in their spirit. There is no political solution for that. All Joe Biden did was finally say this obvious truth out loud.


Could it be True that most MAGA are just empty souls that are unhappy? That their kids and friends leave the horrible world that they have created to move onto better places?


I think there is something else going on as well. They want people to all live the same lives as they do. I think they believe their way of life is the only way and everyone must live that way. Book bans and threats of violence at Pride events and anyone who has a different opinion is an "enemy of the state" and brown people are bad is what they seem to all want us to live because they want to live it. They have been told for years and years they are the marginalized ones. They are the ones being shut out. Why do they believe this? Well, just look at all the minorities voting and working and the LGBTQ people living and women making money. And they are threatened.

It is some psychological thing. It needs to be studied. It has been, I am sure. Interesting reading, that would be.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:43 am

Also have to understand that people who crave power, will invent a bogeyman to garner public support. That is Trump's core strategy, but he adopted it from the conservative media, where it has festered for 30 years. Trump is really the first to embrace and amplify it, to its full potential. And that is the MAGA movement.

In 1930's Germany, Hitler was able to paint the Jews as the bogeyman, which was easy as that foundation had been laid for centuries, based on the Jewish cultural ability to succeed wherever they have landed. All the powers he claimed unto himself, were necessary to protect the population from the Jewish bogeyman.

In 1950's America, McCarthy was able to paint American Communists as the bogeyman, which again was easy because of the foundation laid for decades by the Soviet Union. All the hearings and persecutions, along with the stature and the power they gave him, were necessary to protect the population from the Communist bogeyman.

With MAGA, Trump has been able to paint Liberalism as the bogeyman. Easy because the foundation has been laid for decades by conservative media. He needs political power to protect the population from them.

But what is perhaps different this time, is how broadly that group can be painted. Anything that is perceived as liberal in nature, can be the bogeyman. Thus unlike Hitler and McCarthy, Trump has a whole stable of bogeymen he can use. If one is shot down, he has another at the ready. He can continuously rotate between them.

Immigration? Bogeyman. LBGTQ? Bogeyman. Liberals/Democrats? Bogeyman. DoJ/FBI? Bogeyman. Mail-in voting? Bogeyman. IRS? Bogeyman. The list goes on and on, and they are all coming to get you.

The notable commonality, is the exploitation of unreasoned, irrational and unfounded fears, in order to attain and retain personal power. It's clear that none of these groups, in any of their eras, constituted a substantial threat. But that doesn't matter, as long as the perception can be created and sustained.

A certain fraction of the population is always immune to this, they are able to perceive the true nature & motivation of people who push those agendas. But those people do present a real threat to the perpetrators, and the response is always the same: to attack and consolidate power against them, so that they are unable to effect change.

In that sense democracy becomes the enemy, because it's the main tool of the population to act against the perpetrators. Thus we have a new bogeyman, election fraud. It's coming to get you too.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:28 pm

seb146 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Good Article on where things stand.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters ... ld/671355/

For Biden even to mention something like abortion undermined the more important part of his speech, which is that MAGA is a movement that doesn’t believe in anything but violence, chaos, and power. Right-wing pundits have seized on that part of his speech because it was the only thing they could argue with; they know that trying to describe MAGA and Trumpism with any consistency is pointless. Smaller government? More democracy? Power to “We the People”? Good luck with that: Trump just endorsed a GOP candidate for governor, Geoff Diehl in Massachusetts, by telling a crowd that Diehl will “rule your state with an iron fist, and he’ll do what has to be done.”


The MAGA movement isn’t interested in politics, or policies, or compromises. It is interested in destruction and seeing others made as miserable as its followers are. MAGA is a movement of people who seem to be, in so many ways, deeply and profoundly unhappy, and suffering from an emptiness and anger deep in their spirit. There is no political solution for that. All Joe Biden did was finally say this obvious truth out loud.


Could it be True that most MAGA are just empty souls that are unhappy? That their kids and friends leave the horrible world that they have created to move onto better places?


I think there is something else going on as well. They want people to all live the same lives as they do. I think they believe their way of life is the only way and everyone must live that way. Book bans and threats of violence at Pride events and anyone who has a different opinion is an "enemy of the state" and brown people are bad is what they seem to all want us to live because they want to live it. They have been told for years and years they are the marginalized ones. They are the ones being shut out. Why do they believe this? Well, just look at all the minorities voting and working and the LGBTQ people living and women making money. And they are threatened.

It is some psychological thing. It needs to be studied. It has been, I am sure. Interesting reading, that would be.


It's also fed by a heavy dose of right wing programming. We always hear about the immigrant caravans, and the fentanyl crisis. However we rarely hear about the plight of those caught in the drugs, and how they were marginalized in their home towns and families prior. We never hear much about the employers that continue to provide job opportunities for those willing to cross the border and the remedial slap on the wrists they get. We hear all about "financial restraint", yet nothing about the expenses of providing infrastructure and services to rural communities. The right wing likes to tell a story to make people feel good about their way of thinking. They don't like to tell a good story about why people are actually thinking the way they are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden's speech on MAGA

Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:49 pm

Oh Wow,
The Lincoln Project struck hard and True.
The Ad is Genius.
That they bought ad time on the Local Cable for Fox news when Trump was watching is perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ0vPIo9eyY

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 62890.html

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