Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Here is a short video for sales training to justify a high payment. Its pretty good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoHbDs5JStI
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Francoflier wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:While we are on it "Lay-down" was what they used as a term for someone that just came in and gave up all the money and never negotiated. My record deal was a lease I sold for several thousand over MSRP the net profit after dealer pack was about $8100, so my commission was around $2400 for two hours work.
I honestly don't mean to be sarcastic, but I find it amusing that you created a thread to complain about dealership regulations yet have provided various examples of blatant abusive and predatory behavior from these dealerships - from your own experience no less - which are perfect illustrations of why dealerships should absolutely be regulated.
So making money should be illegal? Who business it it for the for the government or anyone else to say how or how much of their money to spend? If they felt they were being taking advantage of couldn't they have gotten up and walkedThats not a free market.
I think in some places even less regulation.
I never understood in places like Texas why its illegal for car dealers to be open on a Sunday, that makes no sense. Every dealer I worked at was open 7 days a week 365 days a year. Heck Century Chrysler Plymouth sales department was open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Your shift would be 9a-9p or 9p-9a, 1 day off a week.
Phosphorus wrote:Why is Federal Government regulation even needed? Allow the buyers to shop directly at OEM website. If you like the experience, buy the car there, end of story.
If you prefer a physical dealership experience, go to a dealership, shop for a car there.
Market will decide which dealerships are worth staying afloat, and which aren't.
What's so complicated about that?
IADCA wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Francoflier wrote:
I honestly don't mean to be sarcastic, but I find it amusing that you created a thread to complain about dealership regulations yet have provided various examples of blatant abusive and predatory behavior from these dealerships - from your own experience no less - which are perfect illustrations of why dealerships should absolutely be regulated.
So making money should be illegal? Who business it it for the for the government or anyone else to say how or how much of their money to spend? If they felt they were being taking advantage of couldn't they have gotten up and walkedThats not a free market.
I think in some places even less regulation.
I never understood in places like Texas why its illegal for car dealers to be open on a Sunday, that makes no sense. Every dealer I worked at was open 7 days a week 365 days a year. Heck Century Chrysler Plymouth sales department was open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Your shift would be 9a-9p or 9p-9a, 1 day off a week.
You're literally advocating for fraud to be legalized. After all, why should lying be regulated? The customer could protect themselves by educating themselves about typical car dealership scams and how to defend against them. Same way you can presumably protect yourself against medical scams with your MD, or defend yourself against baseless lawsuits with the legal education you somehow acquired, right?
Wrong, of course. Information asymmetries in bargaining are a real problem. That's why the mortgage market is so tightly regulated. Enjoy watching it happen in your industry, because you've amply demonstrated why it's needed.Phosphorus wrote:Why is Federal Government regulation even needed? Allow the buyers to shop directly at OEM website. If you like the experience, buy the car there, end of story.
If you prefer a physical dealership experience, go to a dealership, shop for a car there.
Market will decide which dealerships are worth staying afloat, and which aren't.
What's so complicated about that?
Precisely. It would cause the number of car dealerships in the United States to diminish by 50% within a year, but the consumer would see much lower prices, better service, and buying a car would take 20 minutes.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:IADCA wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
So making money should be illegal? Who business it it for the for the government or anyone else to say how or how much of their money to spend? If they felt they were being taking advantage of couldn't they have gotten up and walkedThats not a free market.
I think in some places even less regulation.
I never understood in places like Texas why its illegal for car dealers to be open on a Sunday, that makes no sense. Every dealer I worked at was open 7 days a week 365 days a year. Heck Century Chrysler Plymouth sales department was open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Your shift would be 9a-9p or 9p-9a, 1 day off a week.
You're literally advocating for fraud to be legalized. After all, why should lying be regulated? The customer could protect themselves by educating themselves about typical car dealership scams and how to defend against them. Same way you can presumably protect yourself against medical scams with your MD, or defend yourself against baseless lawsuits with the legal education you somehow acquired, right?
Wrong, of course. Information asymmetries in bargaining are a real problem. That's why the mortgage market is so tightly regulated. Enjoy watching it happen in your industry, because you've amply demonstrated why it's needed.Phosphorus wrote:Why is Federal Government regulation even needed? Allow the buyers to shop directly at OEM website. If you like the experience, buy the car there, end of story.
If you prefer a physical dealership experience, go to a dealership, shop for a car there.
Market will decide which dealerships are worth staying afloat, and which aren't.
What's so complicated about that?
Precisely. It would cause the number of car dealerships in the United States to diminish by 50% within a year, but the consumer would see much lower prices, better service, and buying a car would take 20 minutes.
Ok government regulations to protect the uneducated! Gotcha! If it was your money and you counted on profit per vehicle to make a living you would do everything you could to maximize your earnings. Every extra $100 profit is another $20-$30 (depending on pay plan) in your pocket. So if someone is willing to pay say $300 for nitro fill in the tires and your commission on that is say $90 I am sure you wouldn't tell them "you don't need that save your money". But if someone doesn't want to pay for it, I wouldn't let it kill the deal either.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:So if someone is willing to pay say $300 for nitro fill in the tires and your commission on that is say $90 I am sure you wouldn't tell them "you don't need that save your money".
ACDC8 wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:So if someone is willing to pay say $300 for nitro fill in the tires and your commission on that is say $90 I am sure you wouldn't tell them "you don't need that save your money".
Yet there are dealers that literally do make a healthy profit and paycheque by doing just that
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:ACDC8 wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:So if someone is willing to pay say $300 for nitro fill in the tires and your commission on that is say $90 I am sure you wouldn't tell them "you don't need that save your money".
Yet there are dealers that literally do make a healthy profit and paycheque by doing just that
Guess thats where we have to define healthy living, say a commission of $150 a car? Can't really feed yourself on that. A good salesperson in a big Toyota store should be able to make $10,000-15,000 a month selling 20-25 cars or about $570 per car. That works out to around $2750 net profit (assuming the dealer charges the salesperson a $500 pack) and around a 20% commission of the net.
QF7 wrote:What’s so hard about being honest and ethical and treating people decently?
QF7
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:IADCA wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
So making money should be illegal? Who business it it for the for the government or anyone else to say how or how much of their money to spend? If they felt they were being taking advantage of couldn't they have gotten up and walkedThats not a free market.
I think in some places even less regulation.
I never understood in places like Texas why its illegal for car dealers to be open on a Sunday, that makes no sense. Every dealer I worked at was open 7 days a week 365 days a year. Heck Century Chrysler Plymouth sales department was open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Your shift would be 9a-9p or 9p-9a, 1 day off a week.
You're literally advocating for fraud to be legalized. After all, why should lying be regulated? The customer could protect themselves by educating themselves about typical car dealership scams and how to defend against them. Same way you can presumably protect yourself against medical scams with your MD, or defend yourself against baseless lawsuits with the legal education you somehow acquired, right?
Wrong, of course. Information asymmetries in bargaining are a real problem. That's why the mortgage market is so tightly regulated. Enjoy watching it happen in your industry, because you've amply demonstrated why it's needed.Phosphorus wrote:Why is Federal Government regulation even needed? Allow the buyers to shop directly at OEM website. If you like the experience, buy the car there, end of story.
If you prefer a physical dealership experience, go to a dealership, shop for a car there.
Market will decide which dealerships are worth staying afloat, and which aren't.
What's so complicated about that?
Precisely. It would cause the number of car dealerships in the United States to diminish by 50% within a year, but the consumer would see much lower prices, better service, and buying a car would take 20 minutes.
Ok government regulations to protect the uneducated! Gotcha! If it was your money and you counted on profit per vehicle to make a living you would do everything you could to maximize your earnings. Every extra $100 profit is another $20-$30 (depending on pay plan) in your pocket. So if someone is willing to pay say $300 for nitro fill in the tires and your commission on that is say $90 I am sure you wouldn't tell them "you don't need that save your money". But if someone doesn't want to pay for it, I wouldn't let it kill the deal either.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Guess thats where we have to define healthy living
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:IADCA wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
So making money should be illegal? Who business it it for the for the government or anyone else to say how or how much of their money to spend? If they felt they were being taking advantage of couldn't they have gotten up and walkedThats not a free market.
I think in some places even less regulation.
I never understood in places like Texas why its illegal for car dealers to be open on a Sunday, that makes no sense. Every dealer I worked at was open 7 days a week 365 days a year. Heck Century Chrysler Plymouth sales department was open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Your shift would be 9a-9p or 9p-9a, 1 day off a week.
You're literally advocating for fraud to be legalized. After all, why should lying be regulated? The customer could protect themselves by educating themselves about typical car dealership scams and how to defend against them. Same way you can presumably protect yourself against medical scams with your MD, or defend yourself against baseless lawsuits with the legal education you somehow acquired, right?
Wrong, of course. Information asymmetries in bargaining are a real problem. That's why the mortgage market is so tightly regulated. Enjoy watching it happen in your industry, because you've amply demonstrated why it's needed.Phosphorus wrote:Why is Federal Government regulation even needed? Allow the buyers to shop directly at OEM website. If you like the experience, buy the car there, end of story.
If you prefer a physical dealership experience, go to a dealership, shop for a car there.
Market will decide which dealerships are worth staying afloat, and which aren't.
What's so complicated about that?
Precisely. It would cause the number of car dealerships in the United States to diminish by 50% within a year, but the consumer would see much lower prices, better service, and buying a car would take 20 minutes.
Ok government regulations to protect the uneducated! Gotcha! If it was your money and you counted on profit per vehicle to make a living you would do everything you could to maximize your earnings. Every extra $100 profit is another $20-$30 (depending on pay plan) in your pocket. So if someone is willing to pay say $300 for nitro fill in the tires and your commission on that is say $90 I am sure you wouldn't tell them "you don't need that save your money". But if someone doesn't want to pay for it, I wouldn't let it kill the deal either.
johns624 wrote:The OP seems to miss the first rule of retail. The job isn't to make a big sale once, it's to keep the customer coming back for sale after sale.
Here's an example--the OP sells a car with a bunch of unnecessary stuff. The customer tells his friends about the "deal" that he got. They all laugh at him and tell him that he got screwed. He never goes back to the dealership and tells everyone he knows not to go, either. On the other hand, if you treat the customer right, he keeps coming back and brings his friends and family to buy.
johns624 wrote:The OP seems to miss the first rule of retail. The job isn't to make a big sale once, it's to keep the customer coming back for sale after sale.
Here's an example--the OP sells a car with a bunch of unnecessary stuff. The customer tells his friends about the "deal" that he got. They all laugh at him and tell him that he got screwed. He never goes back to the dealership and tells everyone he knows not to go, either. On the other hand, if you treat the customer right, he keeps coming back and brings his friends and family to buy.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:johns624 wrote:The OP seems to miss the first rule of retail. The job isn't to make a big sale once, it's to keep the customer coming back for sale after sale.
Here's an example--the OP sells a car with a bunch of unnecessary stuff. The customer tells his friends about the "deal" that he got. They all laugh at him and tell him that he got screwed. He never goes back to the dealership and tells everyone he knows not to go, either. On the other hand, if you treat the customer right, he keeps coming back and brings his friends and family to buy.
Would you rather make $3500 a month or $10,000 a month?
Most people don't stick around in a store long enough for returns. For the most part most sales people stay in a store less than a year. There was an old saying when I was selling. "If you don't have 10 cars on the board on the 30th, don't bother coming in on the 1st" Also, the salesperson has little control over final price etc, thats up to the sales manager. Take a look at the Honda Civic R, the 2023. If you want one be prepared to pay a good $50,000 over sticker, must finance through dealer, no cash deals. Salesperson cant do anything about that. I guarantee you they will put as much extra stuff on it as they can.
It was usually the case the lay-downs that came in and gave up all the money were the happiest, the ones that would grind you for the last $50 were not.
Just a little food for thought....People love things like CarMax, Carvana, Vroom etc because of their "hassle free" experience. No shenanigans. Those retailers on average make more gross profit per unit than your typical dealer, thats just on the front end. Then they make additional on the back end for financing spread where they mark up from the buy rate.
So just by getting an education and standing your ground at a regular dealer you can get a deal. But hey if I see $100 sitting on the ground I am going to pick it up.
johns624 wrote:The OP seems to miss the first rule of retail. The job isn't to make a big sale once, it's to keep the customer coming back for sale after sale.
Here's an example--the OP sells a car with a bunch of unnecessary stuff. The customer tells his friends about the "deal" that he got. They all laugh at him and tell him that he got screwed. He never goes back to the dealership and tells everyone he knows not to go, either. On the other hand, if you treat the customer right, he keeps coming back and brings his friends and family to buy.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Would you rather make $3500 a month or $10,000 a month?
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Here we go again with government over reach! What happened to a free and unregulated market, the founding principles of our country?
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ftc-may-ba ... r-tactics/
Do your home work, tell the dealer what you will pay and how you will pay. Draw the line in the sand and if they don't want to play by your terms, get up and walk out. I BOOF-ed once when the dealer would not budge on a $899 doc fee and $995 for Nitro in tires. My local Ford dealer is currently refusing cash deals, never even sat down at the desk with them,
ACDC8 wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Would you rather make $3500 a month or $10,000 a month?
I'd rather start of making $3500 a month, build a solid reputation as a true professional and reputable dealer and let the profits build on their own from there. $10K is pretty close to what my dealer makes on average - sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. Wasn't always like that though, just like the younger dealers who just started their careers at the same dealership, they're watching and learning and eventually, they'll have a solid repeat customer base just like my dealer, and to quote Louie Anderson in Coming to America - "and thats where the big bucks start rolling in".
I value my reputation over dollars, and when your customers send new customers your way, thats true accomplishment and the money follows that accomplishment all on its own.
johns624 wrote:Somebody just keeps digging their hole deeper and deeper...
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:you're missing the whole point...again. He keep talking about charging customers for things that weren't even done. That's fraud, or as it's known in layman's terms "stealing".johns624 wrote:Somebody just keeps digging their hole deeper and deeper...
So your argument is automotive sales professionals cannot make a decent living? Since when is charging high prices should be illegal? Right now it's a sellers market, so buyers pay the price. Who knows in 18 months it could very well be a buyers market and dealers will be giving cars away to avoid continual flooring costs, or having to pay off flooring at the end of 90 days.
What else shall we regulate? Tell NFL they cannot sell Superbowl Tickets for $5000? Uber cant surge price? Perhaps it will come down to full price take it or leave it.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:So your argument is automotive sales professionals cannot make a decent living?
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Well I think its time to lock this thread Mr. Mods!
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
So at $3500 a month you would likely be making a lot of mini's (around $150 bucks a car). To make $10k a month you have to go for gross, and sell a good 20-25 cars a month. If you are not selling a lot of extra's i.e. Nitro, paint protection etc you will never make the $10k a month. Thats why they are called salesmen, not order takers.
Here is a rough outline of how a sales pay structure works. Say you sell a car and make a $3500 gross profit on the unit, the dealership will charge the sales person whats called a "pack" it really varies per dealership but lets say its $750. That leaves you with a net profit of 2750. So now the pay plan can be anywhere from 20-30% of the net profit so lets call it 25% thats a payable commission of $687.50.
Now believe it or not a $3500 gross is hard to consistently hit you have to have a high demand car with a dealer mark up and adds.
More conservative you may make a $1500 gross, take off the pack you are left with a $750 net profit after dealer pack. Net payable is $187.00
Sometimes you hit home runs and make all the money, sometimes you get the dreaded "mini" and will likely make $75.00. So you have to push to make as much gross per unit as you can, and push to get as many cars out as you can.
I remember back in 1992 just as I was getting ready to move on to other things I had 3 roll backs in one week so I did not make a dime on those 3 units.
sccutler wrote:Fascinating discussion.
I understand the concern, but vigorously object to the notion of the feds regulating auto dealers; there is almost never an advantage to creating yet another federal bureaucracy. It would end up fixing nothing, and costing all of us more in the end (figuratively and literally).
However, I also find some the sharp practices of some dealers outrageous. The N2 in tires is the poster-child of ripoffs, but I've seen some worse, like the BMW dealership that tried to charge a friend $280.00 for floor mats - that were included by BMW in the new car in the first place. They lost the sale to Mercedes.
Where the feds could help - the best form of consumer protection - is to provide robust and easily-accessed consumer *information*, so people would go into the process better-prepared. Still, no matter how much information is available to people (I mean, there's plenty out there right now), there will always be idiots acting like idiots, and to be honest, don't they sort of deserve to get poorer treatment than those who do their homework?
sccutler wrote:like the BMW dealership that tried to charge a friend $280.00 for floor mats - that were included by BMW in the new car in the first place. They lost the sale to Mercedes.
JJJ wrote:The last car we bough was researched and bought online, and delivered to the dealer of our choice (which incidentally was the same we did the test drive).
Car dealers nowadays are basically for window shopping.
FGITD wrote:So government regulation is good, in that it forces people to use dealerships….but it’s an overstep if the same government regulates the dealerships so customers aren’t defrauded and ripped off? Is that correct?
JJJ wrote:The last car we bough was researched and bought online, and delivered to the dealer of our choice (which incidentally was the same we did the test drive).
Car dealers nowadays are basically for window shopping.
mad99 wrote:JJJ wrote:The last car we bough was researched and bought online, and delivered to the dealer of our choice (which incidentally was the same we did the test drive).
Car dealers nowadays are basically for window shopping.
did you get a discount? If yes what %?
JJJ wrote:mad99 wrote:JJJ wrote:The last car we bough was researched and bought online, and delivered to the dealer of our choice (which incidentally was the same we did the test drive).
Car dealers nowadays are basically for window shopping.
did you get a discount? If yes what %?
Most brands nowadays do seasonal offers. I believe it was something like 3k off.
ACDC8 wrote:I remember in Germany, it was a totally different experience. You'd go to a dealership, and you could custom order a specific car to your liking, they'd place the order and when it was built, you went up to Wolfsburg and took delivery of your new car.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Kiwirob wrote:LCDFlight wrote:I think dealers should do whatever they want, but dealer exclusivity laws should be struck down. I should have the freedom to distribute cars from any car manufacturer I want to.
If that’s the case then why can’t the manufacture also have the same rights to say who can and who can sell their vehicles?
Some states can, but I know TX they cannot. Right now most manufacturers chose not to sell direct to the consumer, as other wise it would increase their costs and complexity. But recently with dealers getting a bad rap for excessive markups and fees its starting to give the brands a bad name some are resondisering.
I remember when Lexus first came out in 1990 we were not allowed to add mark-up to the MSRP, but we got around it by adding pinstripes and charging $1495 for them when our cost was about $10. Paint protection we charged $1995 for it and rarely even put it on best we did was just wax and polish it, cost was about $5. Extended warranty we charged $2995 for and cost was about $300.
DIRECTFLT wrote:Our Public Schools, which supposedly are to prepare young people for (real) life, could teach and train all children in the art of negotiating.
In the US, negotiating for things at a food market is not common. And some of the most important purchases one makes in their lifetime, buying a house and buying a car, involve price negotiation. And there's the flip side, of selling your car or home, or selling just about anything.
ACDC8 wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:So your argument is automotive sales professionals cannot make a decent living?
LMAO, the argument is that automotive sales professionals can and do make a decent living without resorting to fraudulent tactics.FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Well I think its time to lock this thread Mr. Mods!
Hmmm, that sounds like some overreach to me
Bottom line is this, dealerships and automotive salespersons have been defrauding the customers for decades by offering services with borderline criminal markups, if those services are even performed in the first place. The Government is now finally taking notice and hopefully takes action because its evident, and your posts prove time and time again, that the automotive sales industry is intentionally scamming consumers for nothing but pure greed and cannot be trusted without adult supervision.
Free market and capitalism can be a wonderful thing, but as the ol' saying goes "You abuse it, you lose it"
JJJ wrote:ACDC8 wrote:I remember in Germany, it was a totally different experience. You'd go to a dealership, and you could custom order a specific car to your liking, they'd place the order and when it was built, you went up to Wolfsburg and took delivery of your new car.
It generally works like this yes. Dealers don't even carry much stock nowadays except for demo cars because they can check in real time the different staging lots from the manufacturer (which take 1-2 weeks) as well as the allocation of the different trims and colours that are going to be made in the following weeks so that you can make a choice between waiting for a particularly rare config or get something close enough but available in weeks.
Dealers tend to stock higher specc'ed cars which generally take longer to custom build and of course they will try to unload them on you (as well as demo cars which they want to keep in rotation) but the dealer experience is much more relaxed.
Dealers still do the end of the year rush when they try to hit sales targets, but a lot of those cars end up as demos and get unloaded gradually along the year. It helps that model year is not a thing over here.
santi319 wrote:I really hope the banning of dealership’s tv and radio commercials is on the list. I can’t think of a single thing more annoying.
WesternDC6B wrote:santi319 wrote:I really hope the banning of dealership’s tv and radio commercials is on the list. I can’t think of a single thing more annoying.
Just my opinion, but, the dealers that shout and scream the loudest are the ones that will find the most ways to pack a deal, or just outright cheat.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:I never understood in places like Texas why its illegal for car dealers to be open on a Sunday, that makes no sense. Every dealer I worked at was open 7 days a week 365 days a year. Heck Century Chrysler Plymouth sales department was open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Your shift would be 9a-9p or 9p-9a, 1 day off a week.