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GDB
Posts: 16251
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:15 am

Aesma wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
https://www.9news.com.au/world/uk-new-prime-minister-conservative-party-liz-truss-rushi-sunak/65ca1c63-d2b3-4958-b743-66a01233e649

Liz Truss to become next UK PM

All we can do is give her a go and see how she goes


“As Liz said there, she said it would be wrong to predict the future even though loads of people have predicted that we’re going to have real issues with paying our energy bills but I think she’s right to just then basically say ‘let’s not predict and see what happens next week.“

Joe Lycett

Meanwhile yesterday’s Spectator podcast has none other than Fraser Nelson saying that even some MPs backing her expect her to be gone by April. Evidently based on having a fairly polarized Tory party (the majority of MPs haven’t come out and explicitly backed her) and a noticeably smaller margin of victory among members, which has also split along rural/urban lines, with London going Sunak and the north going Truss (despite Sunak being the only one who voted for Brexit).

Don’t think there’s much to see here - we know what she’s offering: low taxes and high spending. That’s populism, not conservatism, so the knives will probably be out soon enough.


I took my twitter dose yesterday and it seems a lot of conservatives have a deep, unhealthy hatred for Sunak. Instead of saying things like "good fight, thanks", they're angry at him even though he lost.

That tells a lot.

LabQuest wrote:
How on earth are Europeans complaining about democracy when half their parliaments elect people with no say from the public. Astounding and hypocritical.

House of lords. Honorific senates in Italy and France...what a joke.


I don't know where you come from with this, but the directly elected US Senate is a nightmare, giving as much power to states with few inhabitants as to states with a lot of people.

The French Senate has this representativity problem too, favoring the countryside, but it has less power : it can only slow down the passage of bills, not kill them.


Exactly the same as the Lords then, the last time they could block legislation from the Commons was in 1910.
It was ended by general elections, asking the then electorate, unlike the Supreme Court who are also appointed and there for life. Ended by the Parliament Act 1911 after they vetoed the budgets of an elected government.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:38 am

A101 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
By the time these Tories have finished with us there’ll be nothing left of the country. Scotland will be gone, our precious health service will be gone, our economy will be gone. Europe as a place to live work or even trade with is already gone.

And Truss will obviously be a catastrophe. Any two senses will tell you she’s not a leader of a country. Imagine someone every bit as incompetent, incurious and indifferent as Johnson but without the charm and charisma. It’s going to be brutal.


Ahhh the sky is falling down....... :rotfl:

It’s falling if you value the union that goes back to 1707 and will end in the coming months. Thanks for your contribution
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
By the time these Tories have finished with us there’ll be nothing left of the country. Scotland will be gone, our precious health service will be gone, our economy will be gone. Europe as a place to live work or even trade with is already gone.

And Truss will obviously be a catastrophe. Any two senses will tell you she’s not a leader of a country. Imagine someone every bit as incompetent, incurious and indifferent as Johnson but without the charm and charisma. It’s going to be brutal.


I predict Truss will be so bad that people will start missing the cockwomble Johnson.

The circus is the same, just a different clown.


I still wonder how many people regret seeing Theresa May quit or wanting her gone?

May didn't do herself any favours with her Brexit red lines calling that election in 2017, and I think getting into bed with the DUP caused her a lot of problems later down the line when trying to negotiate the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU, but she was certainly no clown.

cedarjet wrote:
It’s falling if you value the union that goes back to 1707 and will end in the coming months. Thanks for your contribution


I expect Truss will tell Sturgeon where to go when the time comes for her annual Section 30 request to go in, particularly if the Supreme Court rules that Holyrood has no power to hold a referendum without it. Sturgeon's problem is that she now has to find a way of making political capital out of it now her favourite bogeyman Johnson has exited 10 Downing Street, otherwise her own days might be numbered if the Supreme Court rules against her.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:47 pm

On the contrary anything preventing a referendum helps the SNP. They'll pick even more seats at the next election, and will have made the referendum part of that election.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:18 pm

Aesma wrote:
On the contrary anything preventing a referendum helps the SNP. They'll pick even more seats at the next election, and will have made the referendum part of that election.


I think for the moment it's quite inelastic. Various Section 30 requests went in to Truss' predecessors and were rebuffed. It didn't really translate into a massive electoral swing for them, or for independence for that matter.

It will also depend on whether having another referendum is high on the priorities of voters in Scotland. Recent reports have been suggesting that not everyone is keen on another vote soon (or at least not within the timetable Sturgeon wants which is October next year) including those who are pro-Indy, and I suspect priorities of voters are elsewhere right now such as how they're going to afford energy and food this winter.

As for picking up more seats, they've made getting another referendum part of their last few Holyrood election pledges. It seems their next plan if the Supreme Court rules against them is to use the next UK general election as a plebiscite to negotiate for independence. Whether that will work remains to be seen.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:57 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Aesma wrote:
On the contrary anything preventing a referendum helps the SNP. They'll pick even more seats at the next election, and will have made the referendum part of that election.


I think for the moment it's quite inelastic. Various Section 30 requests went in to Truss' predecessors and were rebuffed. It didn't really translate into a massive electoral swing for them, or for independence for that matter.

It will also depend on whether having another referendum is high on the priorities of voters in Scotland. Recent reports have been suggesting that not everyone is keen on another vote soon (or at least not within the timetable Sturgeon wants which is October next year) including those who are pro-Indy, and I suspect priorities of voters are elsewhere right now such as how they're going to afford energy and food this winter.

As for picking up more seats, they've made getting another referendum part of their last few Holyrood election pledges. It seems their next plan if the Supreme Court rules against them is to use the next UK general election as a plebiscite to negotiate for independence. Whether that will work remains to be seen.


This assumes a lot of rational choice in unpredictable times. The more economic stress there is, the more radical ideas have a chance of prevailing against (small c) conservatism - the kind that favours a wait-and-see attitude.

Which is to say that while it’s fair to argue that stressors like energy and food prices might put “independence” - as a concept - on the back burner, it’s equally possible that the stressors might be too acute and might make radical conceptions of independence seem more practical than previously (“what have we got to lose?/how much worse would it be - can only get better from here?”).

Paradoxically, then, giving them the vote now would likely focus attention on the day-to-day crises they face (increasing the odds of a “no” vote), but denying them the vote runs the risk of letting “independence” re-cast itself as a solution to all these problems.

Granted, a lot of that will depend on how Truss governs. I think there is a fair bit of concern around her plan to borrow/spend more while cutting taxes and how that will be interpreted by global markets (short the pound, import prices shoot up, another inflationary pressure and so on). Interest rates might temper that, but that affects Scot’s paying mortgages and so on. And all of this is without factoring in a possible trade war (low grade or full out) with the EU over the NIP.

Trussonomics isn’t well placed to counter the independence movement; if it goes badly, support will go up. If it does alright, it’s still susceptible to criticism of being London/south England-centric (because that’s where the wealthy are). The longer you wait - especially with things expected to get worse before they get better, the more that narrative gets entrenched.

IMHO, the smarter thing would be to give her her referendum before the years out, instead of waiting till the worst manifests itself - and in doing so, makes economically shaky options seem viable.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:43 pm

Image

Truss meeting the queen:

Image

ElPistolero wrote:
Meanwhile yesterday’s Spectator podcast has none other than Fraser Nelson saying that even some MPs backing her expect her to be gone by April.


If the rumors that backbenchers want to roll her to bring back Johnson do come true, then that would mean that four Prime Ministers had their reigns ended by Johnson:

Cameron because of Johnson winning the EU referendum.

May because of Johnson thinking he could somehow negotiate a better deal to leave (he couldn't).

Johnson because of his complete absence of any sense of personal responsibility whatsoever and his inability not to lie when caught out.

And then Truss because backbench extremists want Johnson back... amazing.

ElPistolero wrote:
Don’t think there’s much to see here - we know what she’s offering: low taxes and high spending. That’s populism, not conservatism, so the knives will probably be out soon enough.


But is that her actual policy platform or just her saying what she had to inorder to get the top job? She's back flipped plenty of times in the past.

Boeing74741R wrote:
I expect Truss will tell Sturgeon where to go when the time comes for her annual Section 30 request to go in, particularly if the Supreme Court rules that Holyrood has no power to hold a referendum without it. Sturgeon's problem is that she now has to find a way of making political capital out of it now her favourite bogeyman Johnson has exited 10 Downing Street, otherwise her own days might be numbered if the Supreme Court rules against her.


Truss might actually be stupid enough to try and debate Sturgeon. I'd love to watch her try.

Johnson's incompetence at absolutely everything was a great ally of the independence movement. The one hole in the armor was his charisma, which was the saving grace for a (small) section of population. Truss has none of that, so will only drive the support for independence to new heights.

ElPistolero wrote:
This assumes a lot of rational choice in unpredictable times. The more economic stress there is, the more radical ideas have a chance of prevailing against (small c) conservatism - the kind that favours a wait-and-see attitude.

Which is to say that while it’s fair to argue that stressors like energy and food prices might put “independence” - as a concept - on the back burner, it’s equally possible that the stressors might be too acute and might make radical conceptions of independence seem more practical than previously (“what have we got to lose?/how much worse would it be - can only get better from here?”).

Paradoxically, then, giving them the vote now would likely focus attention on the day-to-day crises they face (increasing the odds of a “no” vote), but denying them the vote runs the risk of letting “independence” re-cast itself as a solution to all these problems.


Alternatively it gives the SNP an opportunity to show how they can proactively govern during challenging times (potentially against the backdrop of Westminister doing very little to nothing).

Case in point:

https://news.sky.com/story/scotland-to- ... s-12691305

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-62807578

https://mobile.twitter.com/SadiqKhan/st ... 9454782464

Of course unionists will say that the SNP is only doing it to try and make Westminister look bad. :lol:
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:34 pm

A101 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
By the time these Tories have finished with us there’ll be nothing left of the country. Scotland will be gone, our precious health service will be gone, our economy will be gone. Europe as a place to live work or even trade with is already gone.

And Truss will obviously be a catastrophe. Any two senses will tell you she’s not a leader of a country. Imagine someone every bit as incompetent, incurious and indifferent as Johnson but without the charm and charisma. It’s going to be brutal.




Ahhh the sky is falling down....... :rotfl:


IIRC from the multiple Brexit threads, weren’t you the Brexiteer who went for a one way trip to Australia, instead of waiting for all the unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:37 pm

marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
By the time these Tories have finished with us there’ll be nothing left of the country. Scotland will be gone, our precious health service will be gone, our economy will be gone. Europe as a place to live work or even trade with is already gone.

And Truss will obviously be a catastrophe. Any two senses will tell you she’s not a leader of a country. Imagine someone every bit as incompetent, incurious and indifferent as Johnson but without the charm and charisma. It’s going to be brutal.




Ahhh the sky is falling down....... :rotfl:


IIRC from the multiple Brexit threads, weren’t you the Brexiteer who went for a one way trip to Australia, instead of waiting for all the unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow?


It's understandable. I mean, life's tough when you're just doing alright on £150,000pa.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 3039
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:40 pm

zkojq wrote:
Image

Truss meeting the queen:

Image

ElPistolero wrote:
Meanwhile yesterday’s Spectator podcast has none other than Fraser Nelson saying that even some MPs backing her expect her to be gone by April.


If the rumors that backbenchers want to roll her to bring back Johnson do come true, then that would mean that four Prime Ministers had their reigns ended by Johnson:

Cameron because of Johnson winning the EU referendum.

May because of Johnson thinking he could somehow negotiate a better deal to leave (he couldn't).

Johnson because of his complete absence of any sense of personal responsibility whatsoever and his inability not to lie when caught out.

And then Truss because backbench extremists want Johnson back... amazing.

ElPistolero wrote:
Don’t think there’s much to see here - we know what she’s offering: low taxes and high spending. That’s populism, not conservatism, so the knives will probably be out soon enough.


But is that her actual policy platform or just her saying what she had to inorder to get the top job? She's back flipped plenty of times in the past.

Boeing74741R wrote:
I expect Truss will tell Sturgeon where to go when the time comes for her annual Section 30 request to go in, particularly if the Supreme Court rules that Holyrood has no power to hold a referendum without it. Sturgeon's problem is that she now has to find a way of making political capital out of it now her favourite bogeyman Johnson has exited 10 Downing Street, otherwise her own days might be numbered if the Supreme Court rules against her.


Truss might actually be stupid enough to try and debate Sturgeon. I'd love to watch her try.

Johnson's incompetence at absolutely everything was a great ally of the independence movement. The one hole in the armor was his charisma, which was the saving grace for a (small) section of population. Truss has none of that, so will only drive the support for independence to new heights.

ElPistolero wrote:
This assumes a lot of rational choice in unpredictable times. The more economic stress there is, the more radical ideas have a chance of prevailing against (small c) conservatism - the kind that favours a wait-and-see attitude.

Which is to say that while it’s fair to argue that stressors like energy and food prices might put “independence” - as a concept - on the back burner, it’s equally possible that the stressors might be too acute and might make radical conceptions of independence seem more practical than previously (“what have we got to lose?/how much worse would it be - can only get better from here?”).

Paradoxically, then, giving them the vote now would likely focus attention on the day-to-day crises they face (increasing the odds of a “no” vote), but denying them the vote runs the risk of letting “independence” re-cast itself as a solution to all these problems.


Alternatively it gives the SNP an opportunity to show how they can proactively govern during challenging times (potentially against the backdrop of Westminister doing very little to nothing).

Case in point:

https://news.sky.com/story/scotland-to- ... s-12691305

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-62807578

https://mobile.twitter.com/SadiqKhan/st ... 9454782464

Of course unionists will say that the SNP is only doing it to try and make Westminister look bad. :lol:


I was against Scottish independence in 2014, but I’ve moved to ambivalence following Brexit. In 2014, I couldn’t understand it (granted I wore an economics lens); now I do, but only on social/political grounds. The economics still doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

The problem for Liz and the ERG/Brexiteers is that her economic policies risk making the economic cost of Scexit a lot lower than they are. At some point, that economic cost becomes acceptable, and the union gets into trouble.

Will she flip flop? Possibly. But the markets are baking in her statements now, and the pound is at its lowest level since 1985 (even Brexit didn’t achieve that). If she’s planning on backtracking on taxes, she might want to do it now, given the hammering the pound has taken with the energy cap.
 
A101
Topic Author
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:14 pm

marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
By the time these Tories have finished with us there’ll be nothing left of the country. Scotland will be gone, our precious health service will be gone, our economy will be gone. Europe as a place to live work or even trade with is already gone.

And Truss will obviously be a catastrophe. Any two senses will tell you she’s not a leader of a country. Imagine someone every bit as incompetent, incurious and indifferent as Johnson but without the charm and charisma. It’s going to be brutal.




Ahhh the sky is falling down....... :rotfl:


IIRC from the multiple Brexit threads, weren’t you the Brexiteer who went for a one way trip to Australia, instead of waiting for all the unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow?


Not one way, but yes I divide my time between the UK/AU

Still have my business interests in the UK to attend to.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 3572
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:17 pm

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:



Ahhh the sky is falling down....... :rotfl:


IIRC from the multiple Brexit threads, weren’t you the Brexiteer who went for a one way trip to Australia, instead of waiting for all the unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow?


It's understandable. I mean, life's tough when you're just doing alright on £150,000pa.


Yeah I’m doing allright I can’t complain

But you are making a lot of assumptions about me. You know what they say about assume.....
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:37 am

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:



Ahhh the sky is falling down....... :rotfl:


IIRC from the multiple Brexit threads, weren’t you the Brexiteer who went for a one way trip to Australia, instead of waiting for all the unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow?


Not one way, but yes I divide my time between the UK/AU

Still have my business interests in the UK to attend to.
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:39 am

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:



Ahhh the sky is falling down....... :rotfl:


IIRC from the multiple Brexit threads, weren’t you the Brexiteer who went for a one way trip to Australia, instead of waiting for all the unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow?


Not one way, but yes I divide my time between the UK/AU

Still have my business interests in the UK to attend to.


So one way, I don’t live where my business is.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:14 am

ElPistolero wrote:
This assumes a lot of rational choice in unpredictable times. The more economic stress there is, the more radical ideas have a chance of prevailing against (small c) conservatism - the kind that favours a wait-and-see attitude.

Which is to say that while it’s fair to argue that stressors like energy and food prices might put “independence” - as a concept - on the back burner, it’s equally possible that the stressors might be too acute and might make radical conceptions of independence seem more practical than previously (“what have we got to lose?/how much worse would it be - can only get better from here?”).

Paradoxically, then, giving them the vote now would likely focus attention on the day-to-day crises they face (increasing the odds of a “no” vote), but denying them the vote runs the risk of letting “independence” re-cast itself as a solution to all these problems.


With the part about day-to-day crises, that is very much true. I don't think anybody from the 'Yes' camp has been able to satisfy questions over what will happen to ordinary people's pensions and mortgages. Then there's the big one over currency.

If anything, Brexit has shown the fallacy of acting as though everything will be all right on the night and should be a warning sign of what a short-to-medium-term economic outlook for an independent Scotland might be like or be worse than that, especially if it's handled badly.

As for the last part about indy being a solution, I guess it goes to show that sometimes if somebody says something often enough it will be believed to be true. In all seriousness, my issue is the constant pushing for the subject to be revisited and another vote held so soon after the last vote. Like with the failure to hold a second Brexit referendum, it can't be something that keeps getting re-run until those who want indy get their way, especially when all involved trotted out the "once-in-a-generation" line. The 2014 and 2016 referendums were divisive, turned nasty and one MP was tragically murdered in the run up to one of them.

zkojq wrote:
If the rumors that backbenchers want to roll her to bring back Johnson do come true, then that would mean that four Prime Ministers had their reigns ended by Johnson:


The thing is Johnson still enjoys a reasonable level of support amongst Conservative Party members. It really would have been interesting to see how many votes he got if he was an option on the ballot paper alongside Truss and Sunak.

Whether people like him or not, it's fair to say some MPs owe their seats to Johnson, particularly those who won seats representing constituencies that have historically always been Labour. Granted, Labour under Corbyn were abysmal and I'd go as far as saying some of those "red wall" gains may have happened anyway whoever was leading the Tories as some of them have been taken for granted for a long time and the demographics of some traditionally solid Labour seats are slowly changing. One such seat is Leigh - former mining and mill town won by the Tories for the first time in 2019 having been Labour for 97 years, but house prices have been slowly rising and is showing signs of becoming an alternative for those priced out of Manchester or wanting to move out of Manchester. At best for Labour, it will become a permanently marginal seat.

In any case, I think Johnson is still subject to a Privileges Committee investigation in Parliament over Partygate, If found guilty, one of the sanctions could be suspension from Parliament which would effectively kill off any chance of a comeback as PM.

zkojq wrote:
Cameron because of Johnson winning the EU referendum.


I've always suspected Johnson backed Brexit because it was more politically beneficial for him to do so instead of being a long-held belief like it was for others.

zkojq wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Don’t think there’s much to see here - we know what she’s offering: low taxes and high spending. That’s populism, not conservatism, so the knives will probably be out soon enough.


But is that her actual policy platform or just her saying what she had to inorder to get the top job? She's back flipped plenty of times in the past.


I suspect what Truss said she would do on some matters and what Truss ends up doing will be two different things, particularly once reality hits home or are overtaken by events.

zkojq wrote:
Johnson's incompetence at absolutely everything was a great ally of the independence movement. The one hole in the armor was his charisma, which was the saving grace for a (small) section of population. Truss has none of that, so will only drive the support for independence to new heights.


It will depend if Sturgeon and other pro-Indy people can paint Truss as a new bogeyman. That said, if the case for independence is based on certain political figures they don't like, it doesn't come across a very strong case. After all, Sturgeon isn't exactly innocent when it comes to misleading Parliament either, but that is of course no excuse for Johnson's bigger misdemeanors.
 
GDB
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:42 am

Johnson even admitted he backed Brexit purely based on it making his chance of becoming PM more likely, IF Remain won narrowly as it would still have destabilized Cameron. After all as London Mayor he was pro EU.
So after that, he and the looney wing of the Tory party were always going to destabilize May.
Hence my total lack of respect for Brexit voters, you were easily fooled by obvious charlatans.
If this is what enough of the country is like small wonder it’s a scammers paradise.
It wasn’t only Labour who under Corbyn, himself aided by a change of membership criteria, who suffered from extremists joining, essentially a lot of the UKIP mob joined the Tories.
 
A101
Topic Author
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:03 am

marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

IIRC from the multiple Brexit threads, weren’t you the Brexiteer who went for a one way trip to Australia, instead of waiting for all the unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow?


Not one way, but yes I divide my time between the UK/AU

Still have my business interests in the UK to attend to.


So one way, I don’t live where my business is.


LOL, you have no idea of my personal circumstances in both business and pleasure. but it is amusing to see that people get so worked up about it.

Oh and those unicorns and pots of gold are doing all right for me since we have left the EU :D :bigthumbsup:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:01 am

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:

Not one way, but yes I divide my time between the UK/AU

Still have my business interests in the UK to attend to.


So one way, I don’t live where my business is.


LOL, you have no idea of my personal circumstances in both business and pleasure. but it is amusing to see that people get so worked up about it.

Oh and those unicorns and pots of gold are doing all right for me since we have left the EU :D :bigthumbsup:


As long as you're "doing alright", just fuck everyone else, eh?
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:16 am

So her first act has been announced, with no prior information given to MPs and only 3 hours to debate it. The speaker has already admonished the government. Good start eh.

Cap is set at £2500 for the next 2 years, paid for purely by borrowing.

I guess having the biggest single donor to your campaign for PM (to the tune of £420,000) from a former BP executive didn't have any affect on her decisions.

I think letting the energy companies make hundreds of billions of "unexpected profits" and the best the government can do is say, that's fine you make your money but we'll make the public pay back what we need. Nuts. Completely wrong way to do it.

She wants more fracking in the UK - ignoring the fact it's proven the UK's gas sources via fracking are tiny and those that were started years ago were shut because they under delivered by over 20%. Huge amounts of money was lost. More licenses for North Sea gas / oil - great, that'll take years and help us with net zero won't it.

Add that to the billions from Covid furlough, billions wasted on un-usable PPE, billions wasted on.. well just about anything else you can imagine and soon tax cuts. One wonders who will be paying for all of this and for how long, it sure won't be companies making huge profits and it sure won't be those making a good living under her watch. So that leaves the rest.
 
GDB
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:45 am

Reinhardt wrote:
So her first act has been announced, with no prior information given to MPs and only 3 hours to debate it. The speaker has already admonished the government. Good start eh.

Cap is set at £2500 for the next 2 years, paid for purely by borrowing.

I guess having the biggest single donor to your campaign for PM (to the tune of £420,000) from a former BP executive didn't have any affect on her decisions.

I think letting the energy companies make hundreds of billions of "unexpected profits" and the best the government can do is say, that's fine you make your money but we'll make the public pay back what we need. Nuts. Completely wrong way to do it.

She wants more fracking in the UK - ignoring the fact it's proven the UK's gas sources via fracking are tiny and those that were started years ago were shut because they under delivered by over 20%. Huge amounts of money was lost. More licenses for North Sea gas / oil - great, that'll take years and help us with net zero won't it.

Add that to the billions from Covid furlough, billions wasted on un-usable PPE, billions wasted on.. well just about anything else you can imagine and soon tax cuts. One wonders who will be paying for all of this and for how long, it sure won't be companies making huge profits and it sure won't be those making a good living under her watch. So that leaves the rest.


Not only is fracking economically dubious in the UK, it is also massively unpopular and many of the prospective sites are in Tory held seats (where local protests have previously delayed plans), or in those Red Wall seats they will be struggling to hang on to.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3493
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Good news for the rich, bad news for the ordinary men. Like she said herself: "It's fair to give wealthiest more money back"

Not good first signs and certainly not when you take into account her words about Johnson and the 2019 deal. She will not fundamentally change anything.

Ah well, she was chosen by 81.326 members of the conservative party, out of 66million Brits.

My feeling about this is, there will be a general election in 2023 with Johnson back in the saddle. We will see what the British electorate will think about the past 12 years of Conservative reign.


“81.326 members of the conservative party, out of 66million Brits.”

And EU commissioners elected with even less support. Bravo.
 
GDB
Posts: 16251
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

So one way, I don’t live where my business is.


LOL, you have no idea of my personal circumstances in both business and pleasure. but it is amusing to see that people get so worked up about it.

Oh and those unicorns and pots of gold are doing all right for me since we have left the EU :D :bigthumbsup:


As long as you're "doing alright", just fuck everyone else, eh?


Est.1979

A lot of chickens coming home to roost, not least Truss when a minister signing off on letting water companies pollute with seeming impunity, Cameron's lot had already bled out the regulatory authorities.
So all those Tory seats with shit all over your beaches, you kind of did this to yourselves.

No more moaning from the SW, heavily Brexit, on how the EU funding, of which you got a lot, has not been at all replaced by the UK government. Much loved local attractions closing? Infrastructure stalled? Those beaches and dying of your rivers?
I guess you can blame 'immigrants' or a comedian making gentle fun of Truss and the not fit for purpose political interviewer, like the Daily Mail tells you to.
After all, us hated Remainers warned you, as did anyone with real expertise not making a killing from Brexit.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1247
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
That would be logical if the electorate actually voted for the PM, it’s the same system in AU/NZ. It does not even happen in the US the Vice President steps up to the plate if the President is forced out or resigns


Nope, if the cabinet falls in the Netherlands, it automatically triggers new elections and it works in the same way in many democracies around the world. The UK system is the exception, not the rule. It is the first past the post system that makes this possible.

It would be quite logical, Boris Johnson headed the party in the last elections, and now he is gone, so let the electorate decide if the successor is worthy of the office. That would be the democratic thing to do.



The UK isn’t the Netherlands.

We didn’t have an election when Blair stood down.

We vote for the party, not the individual.

There will be an election in 2 years.
 
GDB
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:02 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
That would be logical if the electorate actually voted for the PM, it’s the same system in AU/NZ. It does not even happen in the US the Vice President steps up to the plate if the President is forced out or resigns


Nope, if the cabinet falls in the Netherlands, it automatically triggers new elections and it works in the same way in many democracies around the world. The UK system is the exception, not the rule. It is the first past the post system that makes this possible.

It would be quite logical, Boris Johnson headed the party in the last elections, and now he is gone, so let the electorate decide if the successor is worthy of the office. That would be the democratic thing to do.



The UK isn’t the Netherlands.

We didn’t have an election when Blair stood down.

We vote for the party, not the individual.

There will be an election in 2 years.


True but that did not stop the Tory press screaming for one at the time, 31 years before when Wilson handed over to Callaghan (almost uniquely at a time of his choosing), they did not do so. Clearly they became more strident and stupid in the intervening years.
However, there is a hell of a difference between a long serving PM handing over between elections and 4 PM's in 6 years from a party that has lost it's collective marbles.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:11 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
That would be logical if the electorate actually voted for the PM, it’s the same system in AU/NZ. It does not even happen in the US the Vice President steps up to the plate if the President is forced out or resigns


Nope, if the cabinet falls in the Netherlands, it automatically triggers new elections and it works in the same way in many democracies around the world. The UK system is the exception, not the rule. It is the first past the post system that makes this possible.

It would be quite logical, Boris Johnson headed the party in the last elections, and now he is gone, so let the electorate decide if the successor is worthy of the office. That would be the democratic thing to do.



The UK isn’t the Netherlands.

We didn’t have an election when Blair stood down.

We vote for the party, not the individual.

There will be an election in 2 years.


Time for a change. Not just the fact their should be a fresh election on time of change of PM (because they could take a radically different path to that which voters voted the party for in the election, so it can be argued no longer represent the will of the voters). Also time for a change in the voting system.... i.e PR. Huge majorities do nothing for this country, they allow almost anything to get rammed through. It ignores when the majority of people do not actually vote for one party, and helps make it a 2 party system.

You'll argue well we would say that now because we aren't Tory voters.. well maybe, but the last 12 years has shown what happens when one party is in it only for themselves.
 
Arion640
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:59 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
That would be logical if the electorate actually voted for the PM, it’s the same system in AU/NZ. It does not even happen in the US the Vice President steps up to the plate if the President is forced out or resigns


Nope, if the cabinet falls in the Netherlands, it automatically triggers new elections and it works in the same way in many democracies around the world. The UK system is the exception, not the rule. It is the first past the post system that makes this possible.

It would be quite logical, Boris Johnson headed the party in the last elections, and now he is gone, so let the electorate decide if the successor is worthy of the office. That would be the democratic thing to do.



The UK isn’t the Netherlands.

We didn’t have an election when Blair stood down.

We vote for the party, not the individual.

There will be an election in 2 years.


Exactly this.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:00 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Nope, if the cabinet falls in the Netherlands, it automatically triggers new elections and it works in the same way in many democracies around the world. The UK system is the exception, not the rule. It is the first past the post system that makes this possible.

It would be quite logical, Boris Johnson headed the party in the last elections, and now he is gone, so let the electorate decide if the successor is worthy of the office. That would be the democratic thing to do.



The UK isn’t the Netherlands.

We didn’t have an election when Blair stood down.

We vote for the party, not the individual.

There will be an election in 2 years.


Time for a change. Not just the fact their should be a fresh election on time of change of PM (because they could take a radically different path to that which voters voted the party for in the election, so it can be argued no longer represent the will of the voters). Also time for a change in the voting system.... i.e PR. Huge majorities do nothing for this country, they allow almost anything to get rammed through. It ignores when the majority of people do not actually vote for one party, and helps make it a 2 party system.

You'll argue well we would say that now because we aren't Tory voters.. well maybe, but the last 12 years has shown what happens when one party is in it only for themselves.


Time for change?

You want change in a country you do not live in, that you are not a national of?
 
GDB
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:03 pm

The energy strategy explained;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHmNpjWynD8
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1611
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:11 pm

GDB wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Nope, if the cabinet falls in the Netherlands, it automatically triggers new elections and it works in the same way in many democracies around the world. The UK system is the exception, not the rule. It is the first past the post system that makes this possible.

It would be quite logical, Boris Johnson headed the party in the last elections, and now he is gone, so let the electorate decide if the successor is worthy of the office. That would be the democratic thing to do.



The UK isn’t the Netherlands.

We didn’t have an election when Blair stood down.

We vote for the party, not the individual.

There will be an election in 2 years.


True but that did not stop the Tory press screaming for one at the time, 31 years before when Wilson handed over to Callaghan (almost uniquely at a time of his choosing), they did not do so. Clearly they became more strident and stupid in the intervening years.
However, there is a hell of a difference between a long serving PM handing over between elections and 4 PM's in 6 years from a party that has lost it's collective marbles.


Don't forget that Gordon Brown was tipped to call an election within a few months of him taking over from Tony Blair as his stock with the country was high at the time, but didn't do so. It would have given him another 2 years in power at least as his and Labour's popularity started to nosedive after that and never recovered from it by the time the 2010 general election was called. It might have finished Cameron just two years into his time as Conservative leader. I think that's why some people were hysterical at the time because an opportunity to end his premiership within months didn't happen, but as I said the polls were quite favourable at the time: -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... own.labour

I echo the principle that people vote for an MP and not whoever will be Prime Minister (unless you live in their constituency), but in recent years the post has become more and more presidential-like even though the system hasn't changed, and has been since Blair was in power. It's also hard to disagree with the idea that people are influenced on the way they vote based on who is the leader of the party.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:19 pm

GDB wrote:
The energy strategy explained;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHmNpjWynD8


I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you. :liar:
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:23 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:

With the part about day-to-day crises, that is very much true. I don't think anybody from the 'Yes' camp has been able to satisfy questions over what will happen to ordinary people's pensions and mortgages. Then there's the big one over currency.

If anything, Brexit has shown the fallacy of acting as though everything will be all right on the night and should be a warning sign of what a short-to-medium-term economic outlook for an independent Scotland might be like or be worse than that, especially if it's handled badly.

As for the last part about indy being a solution, I guess it goes to show that sometimes if somebody says something often enough it will be believed to be true. In all seriousness, my issue is the constant pushing for the subject to be revisited and another vote held so soon after the last vote. Like with the failure to hold a second Brexit referendum, it can't be something that keeps getting re-run until those who want indy get their way, especially when all involved trotted out the "once-in-a-generation" line. The 2014 and 2016 referendums were divisive, turned nasty and one MP was tragically murdered in the run up to one of them.


The Brexit vote is, indeed, instructive in this case, but it also reveals a lot of “bad” lessons.

- The economics of partition rarely if ever make sense. In simple terms, it amounts to putting in place barriers where none existed, with negative knock-on effects across the economy. That applies as much here as it did on Brexit.

- However, if you have sufficient levels of perceived disenfranchisement, economic rationalism gives way to emotion and ideology. Then one enters the conspiracy theory realm of “the London establishment”/“deep state” enriching itself at one’s expense. That’s where the so-called Brexiteer “red wall” folk ended up in 2016. It’s dressed in respectable garb like “sovereignty” and “take back control” etc, but it was ultimately about a lack of faith in the government of the day.

- We then end up in this tricky area where, if northern England itself felt disenfranchised from London and the “establishment”, that sentiment is likely going to be stronger in Scotland (which has a unique identity of its own). Factor in overall Scottish antipathy towards Brexit, combined with a hard Brexit, and things get even more dicey. Throw in the NIP issue.. and you see where I’m going with this. The sense of disenfranchisement/lack of commonality/pure antagonism towards “London”/England and it’s policies can only go in one direction. And it’s not a good one for the union.

- Will it be divisive? Perhaps. But that’s already a sunk cost. Brexit divisions are never going to go away, and Scot Brexiteers/remainers may soon be aligning on unionist / independence lines (if they haven’t already). Once you take the economic aspects out of this (and even the importance of currency seems to be diminishing with the tanking pound), it’s really not difficult to sell people on the notion that they’d be better off outside a constitutional structure that allowed London/England to deliberately and wilfully enact a Constitutional change (Brexit) that is doing harm to them. That’s something none of the “but you just had a referendum” arguments can square away. Literally everyone in Scotland understands that Brexit changed the equation, regardless of whether they want to admit it or not.

- In the early days of the cost of living crisis, you can blame things on external shocks. As time goes on, it’s easier to recast it as mismanagement by England. Like a football team that doesn’t adapt it’s tactics to injuries, it inevitably becomes the managers fault.

- That’s where I think this entire union risks coming unstuck. Brexit looks to be every bit the near fatal blow lots of us predicted it would be on the identity/social/ideology side. In electing Truss, the Tories seem to be doubling down on it. They’re now also flirting with economic recklessness - cutting taxes and increasing spending in a manner that’s already spooking the “gnomes of Zurich” (aka global markets).

Granted, none of this is going to be an overnight swing, but push this another year, and the SNP are going to be on a different battlefield that is less about Ukraine and external shocks, and more about the state of the UK, and whether Scotland would be better of going it alone.

I’d frankly rush this referendum now to put it to bed, because the arguments against having it will come across as more and more disingenuous as things go sideways - which they inevitably will before they get better.
 
A101
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

So one way, I don’t live where my business is.


LOL, you have no idea of my personal circumstances in both business and pleasure. but it is amusing to see that people get so worked up about it.

Oh and those unicorns and pots of gold are doing all right for me since we have left the EU :D :bigthumbsup:


As long as you're "doing alright", just fuck everyone else, eh?


I’m not the only one in the UK doing alright and that includes remainers and those that voted to leave
 
PhilBy
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:27 pm

We thought that it would be challenging to replace Orange Boris with anyone worse. Fortunately it seems that the Conservative Party had plenty of choices. We now even have a noted climate denier as climate minister.
Worse, accepting Truss was sufficently bad to finish off ER!
I'm sorry world, the anglo-saxons are just tanking it.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:55 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Time for change?

You want change in a country you do not live in, that you are not a national of?


Yes, I want the UK to be what it should be. More like how it felt in 2012 at the Oylmpics where the country felt forward looking. Now it's a shell of itself, caused by 12 years of sheer incompentance, self serving and boarderline corruption.

Nice you can say that without knowing nothing about me. I'm British, and spent 35 years living in the UK. I now split my time between Germany and the UK (not entirely by choice, driven considerably because of Brexit). If things were better here I'd likely move back (I say here as I'm in the UK right now). I have family in various parts of the UK, I still vote.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:34 am

Reinhardt wrote:
So her first act has been announced, with no prior information given to MPs and only 3 hours to debate it. The speaker has already admonished the government. Good start eh.

Cap is set at £2500 for the next 2 years, paid for purely by borrowing.

I guess having the biggest single donor to your campaign for PM (to the tune of £420,000) from a former BP executive didn't have any affect on her decisions.

I think letting the energy companies make hundreds of billions of "unexpected profits" and the best the government can do is say, that's fine you make your money but we'll make the public pay back what we need. Nuts. Completely wrong way to do it.

She wants more fracking in the UK - ignoring the fact it's proven the UK's gas sources via fracking are tiny and those that were started years ago were shut because they under delivered by over 20%. Huge amounts of money was lost. More licenses for North Sea gas / oil - great, that'll take years and help us with net zero won't it.

Add that to the billions from Covid furlough, billions wasted on un-usable PPE, billions wasted on.. well just about anything else you can imagine and soon tax cuts. One wonders who will be paying for all of this and for how long, it sure won't be companies making huge profits and it sure won't be those making a good living under her watch. So that leaves the rest.


“Unexpected profits”? What part was unexpected by you? These massive environmentalist restrictions on oil and gas production only had one possible, and easily predictable, result—higher prices for energy. These profit margins are a gift for the oil industry, brought to them by the environmentalist.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:53 am

PhilBy wrote:
We now even have a noted climate denier as climate minister.


The populist way and the Conservatives have become a populist party. Ah well, the UK has a King who is a climate activist so that might balance things out a bit.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:42 am

My solution would be along the lines of nationalizing them and planning investment, exploration and production for years to come. Or regulations that would have the same effect.
 
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par13del
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
My solution would be along the lines of nationalizing them and planning investment, exploration and production for years to come. Or regulations that would have the same effect.

Great, and what would you do for the coming winter season which is a couple of months out? No long-term solution is going to change the economics being played out in Europe right now, more nuclear plants being bought back online (France), more being built, increased drilling whether fracking or North Sea, none of those things will affect the cost of heating in the next two months, and if climate change does a number with more and colder winter storms......
 
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Aesma
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:30 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
My solution would be along the lines of nationalizing them and planning investment, exploration and production for years to come. Or regulations that would have the same effect.

Great, and what would you do for the coming winter season which is a couple of months out? No long-term solution is going to change the economics being played out in Europe right now, more nuclear plants being bought back online (France), more being built, increased drilling whether fracking or North Sea, none of those things will affect the cost of heating in the next two months, and if climate change does a number with more and colder winter storms......


Labour's plan, aka taxing the energy companies, seems fine to me.

Also unlike France the UK has oil and gas, so instead of just selling it on the open markets at whatever price, Truss could ban export of it and decide on a fixed price during the crisis. Can't say it's not conservative or whatever, it was like that in the US for a long time.
 
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par13del
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:40 pm

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
My solution would be along the lines of nationalizing them and planning investment, exploration and production for years to come. Or regulations that would have the same effect.

Great, and what would you do for the coming winter season which is a couple of months out? No long-term solution is going to change the economics being played out in Europe right now, more nuclear plants being bought back online (France), more being built, increased drilling whether fracking or North Sea, none of those things will affect the cost of heating in the next two months, and if climate change does a number with more and colder winter storms......


Labour's plan, aka taxing the energy companies, seems fine to me.

Also unlike France the UK has oil and gas, so instead of just selling it on the open markets at whatever price, Truss could ban export of it and decide on a fixed price during the crisis. Can't say it's not conservative or whatever, it was like that in the US for a long time.

The energy companies are getting excessive profits because demand has gone up while supply has dwindled, so sure they can tax the oil companies and deploy that money on NHS or anything not named heating / energy for the upcoming winter, those funds cannot be used to purchase what for the most part is not available. No one has really been able to convince OPEC and OPEC+ to increase production to any significant degree, and thanks to politics in the USA, even though the price now favors the frackers, the political restrictions put in place cannot be easily bypassed, or is taking a long time to get removed / modified.

As for the UK ceasing exports, I can see the headlines now, UK trying to black mail EU on energy, France threat to cut electricity to the channel islands during the last fishing crises got very little play in the media, so at least I do not know the level of support it had on the continent, and with the current anti-EU sentiment already being expressed about the new PM....well I think we can all guess how that will play out.
 
GDB
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:02 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
Great, and what would you do for the coming winter season which is a couple of months out? No long-term solution is going to change the economics being played out in Europe right now, more nuclear plants being bought back online (France), more being built, increased drilling whether fracking or North Sea, none of those things will affect the cost of heating in the next two months, and if climate change does a number with more and colder winter storms......


Labour's plan, aka taxing the energy companies, seems fine to me.

Also unlike France the UK has oil and gas, so instead of just selling it on the open markets at whatever price, Truss could ban export of it and decide on a fixed price during the crisis. Can't say it's not conservative or whatever, it was like that in the US for a long time.

The energy companies are getting excessive profits because demand has gone up while supply has dwindled, so sure they can tax the oil companies and deploy that money on NHS or anything not named heating / energy for the upcoming winter, those funds cannot be used to purchase what for the most part is not available. No one has really been able to convince OPEC and OPEC+ to increase production to any significant degree, and thanks to politics in the USA, even though the price now favors the frackers, the political restrictions put in place cannot be easily bypassed, or is taking a long time to get removed / modified.

As for the UK ceasing exports, I can see the headlines now, UK trying to black mail EU on energy, France threat to cut electricity to the channel islands during the last fishing crises got very little play in the media, so at least I do not know the level of support it had on the continent, and with the current anti-EU sentiment already being expressed about the new PM....well I think we can all guess how that will play out.


Energy companies have admitted that they are making hugely unexpected profits, have denied that a windfall tax would kill investment, some are rubbing our noses in it by awarding themselves huge bonuses. For what? Just being CEO when Russia invaded Ukraine?
The same ones who bankrolled Truss’s campaign, still let her make those least able to pay have to, while leaving the her founders get off, the term is always going around, the Truss Tax.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
PhilBy wrote:
We now even have a noted climate denier as climate minister.


The populist way and the Conservatives have become a populist party. Ah well, the UK has a King who is a climate activist so that might balance things out a bit.


No. He has already promised to keep his trap shut on political matters and in any event he has little power.

Still, he can carry on flying everywhere and using his helicopter.
 
GDB
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:14 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
PhilBy wrote:
We now even have a noted climate denier as climate minister.


The populist way and the Conservatives have become a populist party. Ah well, the UK has a King who is a climate activist so that might balance things out a bit.


No. He has already promised to keep his trap shut on political matters and in any event he has little power.

Still, he can carry on flying everywhere and using his helicopter.


To be fair, they’ve greatly cut down, unlike Johnson flying back from COP 26 just to go to an old weird London Club, summoned by the Editor of the Telegraph, he has to get corrupt MP Owen Patterson off the hook, we know how that worked out.
There isn’t a meaningful Royal Flight more, though that was never for their exclusive use, just judging by the civil registrations on the aircraft we saw take the Royal Family to Scotland, just leased civil aircraft with RAF crews and presumably secure comms?
Pretty minimal compared to most nations.
It wasn’t the Royal Family who removed the low viz livery on one of the Voyagers either, someone needed be be told it wasn’t his Air Force, clue in the full name.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:16 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
PhilBy wrote:
We now even have a noted climate denier as climate minister.


The populist way and the Conservatives have become a populist party. Ah well, the UK has a King who is a climate activist so that might balance things out a bit.


No. He has already promised to keep his trap shut on political matters and in any event he has little power.

Still, he can carry on flying everywhere and using his helicopter.


then Brittian is in the hands of the populist movement, but we already knew that by looking at Westminster and its policies.
 
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par13del
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Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:39 pm

GDB wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Labour's plan, aka taxing the energy companies, seems fine to me.

Also unlike France the UK has oil and gas, so instead of just selling it on the open markets at whatever price, Truss could ban export of it and decide on a fixed price during the crisis. Can't say it's not conservative or whatever, it was like that in the US for a long time.

The energy companies are getting excessive profits because demand has gone up while supply has dwindled, so sure they can tax the oil companies and deploy that money on NHS or anything not named heating / energy for the upcoming winter, those funds cannot be used to purchase what for the most part is not available. No one has really been able to convince OPEC and OPEC+ to increase production to any significant degree, and thanks to politics in the USA, even though the price now favors the frackers, the political restrictions put in place cannot be easily bypassed, or is taking a long time to get removed / modified.

As for the UK ceasing exports, I can see the headlines now, UK trying to black mail EU on energy, France threat to cut electricity to the channel islands during the last fishing crises got very little play in the media, so at least I do not know the level of support it had on the continent, and with the current anti-EU sentiment already being expressed about the new PM....well I think we can all guess how that will play out.


Energy companies have admitted that they are making hugely unexpected profits, have denied that a windfall tax would kill investment, some are rubbing our noses in it by awarding themselves huge bonuses. For what? Just being CEO when Russia invaded Ukraine?
The same ones who bankrolled Truss’s campaign, still let her make those least able to pay have to, while leaving the her founders get off, the term is always going around, the Truss Tax.

Which still does not get the energy supplies needed for the winter. Taxing them now is a populist idea (as in most support taxing profits without defining what level / amount is non-offensive) however when the tax payers are mandated to pay for the long term investment next year and beyond it will be on a patriotic platform as the private sector will most certainly state that their investment funds have been taxed away.
So in effect, the tax payers can pay now for keeping bills at an affordable level, or in the next few years when they invest in increased energy production.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 3039
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:54 pm

par13del wrote:
Which still does not get the energy supplies needed for the winter. Taxing them now is a populist idea (as in most support taxing profits without defining what level / amount is non-offensive) however when the tax payers are mandated to pay for the long term investment next year and beyond it will be on a patriotic platform as the private sector will most certainly state that their investment funds have been taxed away.
So in effect, the tax payers can pay now for keeping bills at an affordable level, or in the next few years when they invest in increased energy production.


Nope.

The populist move here is placing an energy price cap and borrowing to fund it. By your own logic, they will be paying well into the future to keep prices low now, thanks to this apparent policy of cutting taxes while increasing spending. In effect, trying to give everything to everyone without counting the cost. Or, more succinctly, populism.

The “windfall tax”, as it was conceived, was created with caveats to reward future investment. Specifically:

“temporary, targeted energy profits levy” of 25% but with a 90% tax relief for firms that invest in oil and gas extraction in the UK.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ergy-firms

This windfall tax thing isn’t a bolt out of the blue with no information available. It’s all been defined very clearly if one bothers enough to look. Which one should, if one wants to comment on it.

As it is, that’s only one of the revenue streams she’s forgoing, the other being the national insurance levy. All very populist. When it falls apart, it’ll be someone else’s fault, no doubt (“international markets conspiring against the UK”/IMF/WEF/Davos conspiracies, “bureaucrats getting in the way with those pesky laws and regulations” aka “the establishment” and so on.) We’ve seen this play before.
 
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par13del
Posts: 11605
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:21 am

I thought the Chancellor was being an opportunist with all his fancy numbers and back and forth with the last PM, interesting that some might think there were some good ideas from this Tory bunch.
Guess the PM should have done more consultation before making a decision, possible with the civil service, hopefully this does not mean another internal battle to get rid of another PM.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 3039
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:53 am

par13del wrote:
I thought the Chancellor was being an opportunist with all his fancy numbers and back and forth with the last PM, interesting that some might think there were some good ideas from this Tory bunch.
Guess the PM should have done more consultation before making a decision, possible with the civil service, hopefully this does not mean another internal battle to get rid of another PM.


Yeah, I’m sure that’s what you meant.

Her new Chancellor’s also gone and sacked the Treasury Permanent Secretary - a highly respected one globally. Surely nothing populist about that. Problem is, the global markets are watching closely.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/top-ci ... 022-09-08/

As for the knives, we already know she doesn’t have the explicit support of the majority of MPs. If things go sideways, well, as the Spectator editor put it recently:

"There are many scenarios where she simply loses control, either with government finances, or with the markets.

"I know people who backed her who think she will be gone by Valentine's Day or Easter because they can think of these scenarios."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/16655 ... 10-spt/amp

Grab your popcorn.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 1021
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:16 am

From an outside observation it looks as if the UK Tories are in a basketcase situation. One clown show leader to another and the state of the nation in decline.

So can any UK locals say why UK Labour are still in the doldrums? Betting sites still have the Conservatives as odds on favourites to win the next UK General Election. With the rise of good quality centre left governments in the rest of the anglosphere (Biden, Albanese, Trudeau and Ardern) and centrist to leftist governments dominating all over Europe (Scholz, Macron, Sanchez) then why are the incompetent, useless, squabbling, do nothing Tories still in power? Is Keir Starmer just a useless Blairite who isn't a viable alternative? Is the UK Labour party so toxic Mr and Mrs average UK citizen want nothing to do with them, and will stick with the clown show that gave the UK Brexit and all the disasters that have since followed?
 
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scbriml
Posts: 21506
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Liz Truss new UK PM

Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:38 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
From an outside observation it looks as if the UK Tories are in a basketcase situation. One clown show leader to another and the state of the nation in decline.

So can any UK locals say why UK Labour are still in the doldrums? Betting sites still have the Conservatives as odds on favourites to win the next UK General Election. With the rise of good quality centre left governments in the rest of the anglosphere (Biden, Albanese, Trudeau and Ardern) and centrist to leftist governments dominating all over Europe (Scholz, Macron, Sanchez) then why are the incompetent, useless, squabbling, do nothing Tories still in power? Is Keir Starmer just a useless Blairite who isn't a viable alternative? Is the UK Labour party so toxic Mr and Mrs average UK citizen want nothing to do with them, and will stick with the clown show that gave the UK Brexit and all the disasters that have since followed?


It’s not surprising bookmakers have the Tories as favourites. Even given their incompetence, they have a massive majority that will be difficult to overturn in a single election.

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