Love the fearmongering headlines Fox throws for this article, including Warning: This article contains explicit information" at the start of it:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/californi ... -bdsm-kink
"High school teacher brags about sexually explicit material for students"
"California high school teacher boasts 'queer library' with material on orgies and BDSM/kink"
"A California high school teacher's 'queer library' included a book which said kink/BDSM was 'sexual liberation'"

I know Fox panders to an audience that fear anything but straight, missionary sexual relations but the constant hand wringing over "what are you letting our children see?!" when this is A.) all already easily available in the internet; and B.) just information when you get down to it, no one is forced to read it or perform any actions.

They present it as if it is horrible (of course, gotta provide click bait to rile the viewers base).

Sex is a good thing. It is not terrible nor is it bringing a gun to school.

Tugg

Welcome to the Money Making machine that Fox News is. Click bait for the uneducated, Angry , and Abusive folks on the far right.
They need to make money and drive Anger. This article sounds like everything checks the boxes for the advertisers and marketing execs at Fox news.
I am still amazed at how uneducated and unaware their audience actually is that they are basically sheep to be herded and fleeced.

The media has become experts at highly controversial topics. When they see a small bit of smoke on a topic, they will dump 5 gallons of gas on the smoke and watch the inferno of fighting. The media is becoming more powerful than the people or politics.

So, I read this article (I know, I know...) and pretty far down, one must read between the lines to see the books are not in circulation at the school. They are on school property, but students can not go to the Card Catalog and use Dewey Decimal to find these books. Again, the article does not spell this out explicitly and it is pretty far down in the article.

I'm scratching my head wondering why books about BDSM would be in any school library. Okay, so you can find all about it on the internet if you want, but I'm sure you can find out how to make homemade explosives on the internet too, but I wouldn't see that as part of any school curriculum.

I was a log cabin republican during W, before my lobotomy, and it's impossible to overstate how viciously anti LGBTQ the republican party has devolved since then. Truly remarkable that multiple republican states are already or want to *take away children from their parents* for medical decisions they've made with their doctor, and regular citizens can rat them out to the state if they suspect those children are getting any kind of gender affirming care. The republican party has primed the hordes to rush to their nearest school board and/or library with their pitchforks and tiki torches, and demand that anything remotely LGBTQ (or non-white) be totally purged and in some cases literally burned. Those same people have been encouraged and driven to frothing madness to castigate any and every LGBTQ person and supporter as pedophiles, much in the same way as anyone daring to discuss black history has been tarred as peddling "critical race theory". Truly 30s Germany-style anger being fueled by the GOP of anything non straight-white-christian male.

This is a high school for crying out loud; most students are 16 or over, which is already completely legal in most states.

Therefore, for what other reason than the typical GOP homophobia would this be an issue? Florida public school districts are already approving policies to basically out gay kids to their classmates' parents...

Braybuddy wrote:

I'm scratching my head wondering why books about BDSM would be in any school library. Okay, so you can find all about it on the internet if you want, but I'm sure you can find out how to make homemade explosives on the internet too, but I wouldn't see that as part of any school curriculum.

Perhaps as a protest against MAGA book bans? I agree that BDSM books do not belong in general circulation in a school, but, again, these books are not in general circulation.

Braybuddy wrote:

I'm scratching my head wondering why books about BDSM would be in any school library. Okay, so you can find all about it on the internet if you want, but I'm sure you can find out how to make homemade explosives on the internet too, but I wouldn't see that as part of any school curriculum.

Actually, as SEB noted (I posted his quote below), the books are not in a/the school library. Fox appears offended that a teacher would openly post that these resources/books are available to people that find they may want to learn more about such things. I guess Fox finds it unacceptable that a teacher offer additional resources to people.

seb146 wrote:

So, I read this article (I know, I know...) and pretty far down, one must read between the lines to see the books are not in circulation at the school. They are on school property, but students can not go to the Card Catalog and use Dewey Decimal to find these books. Again, the article does not spell this out explicitly and it is pretty far down in the article.

And regarding how one wouldn't want bomb making instructions etc. being available in a school, I fully agree. However I don't find consensual sexual activities between peers to be in any way equivalent to learning methods to kill people or destroy property.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

Actually, as SEB noted (I posted his quote below), the books are not in a/the school library. Fox appears offended that a teacher would openly post that these resources/books are available to people that find they may want to learn more about such things. I guess Fox finds it unacceptable that a teacher offer additional resources to people.

Ah right. I didn't read the entire article, and it does say the books were not for general circulation, but for the use of extra-curricular clubs. I'm still a bit confused though, as the article says they were having difficulty getting them into general circulation.

Tugger wrote:

And regarding how one wouldn't want bomb making instructions etc. being available in a school, I fully agree. However I don't find consensual sexual activities between peers to be in any way equivalent to learning methods to kill people or destroy property.

I fully agree. It was a clumsy analogy on my part. I'm sure I could have come up with a better one had I spent more time on the post .

No I think they have a point... sexual identity really has ZERO role in typical school or business settings.

People who try to interject their own sexual, gender, or race identity at random, irrelevant times are actually doing something that is troubling. It is off-task and implies that the entire exchange is being influenced by factors that are illegal under federal law. People, and customers/students, are not supposed to be treated differently, at school or at work, based on those factors.

When you make it a topic, that needs to be questioned and understood, to ensure the law isn't being violated.

I don't want to hear about my straight teacher's sex life, and I also don't want to hear about my gay teacher's sex life. That is not a work friendly topic. Keep it out of the workplace. Or, you may face consequences.

Braybuddy wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Actually, as SEB noted (I posted his quote below), the books are not in a/the school library. Fox appears offended that a teacher would openly post that these resources/books are available to people that find they may want to learn more about such things. I guess Fox finds it unacceptable that a teacher offer additional resources to people.

Ah right. I didn't read the entire article, and it does say the books were not for general circulation, but for the use of extra-curricular clubs. I'm still a bit confused though, as the article says they were having difficulty getting them into general circulation.

Tugger wrote:

And regarding how one wouldn't want bomb making instructions etc. being available in a school, I fully agree. However I don't find consensual sexual activities between peers to be in any way equivalent to learning methods to kill people or destroy property.

I fully agree. It was a clumsy analogy on my part. I'm sure I could have come up with a better one had I spent more time on the post .

No worries. And the comparison is nothing against you. It was just such a big ripe easy target to shoot down

LCDFlight wrote:

No I think they have a point... sexual identity really has ZERO role in typical school or business settings.

People who try to interject their own sexual, gender, or race identity at random, irrelevant times are actually doing something that is troubling. It is off-task and implies that the entire exchange is being influenced by factors that are illegal under federal law. People, and customers/students, are not supposed to be treated differently, at school or at work, based on those factors.

When you make it a topic, that needs to be questioned and understood, to ensure the law isn't being violated.

I don't want to hear about my straight teacher's sex life, and I also don't want to hear about my gay teacher's sex life. That is not a work friendly topic. Keep it out of the workplace. Or, you may face consequences.

Well yes, absolutely. And you should complain to Fox News on their poor decision to wrongly impose it on people who are not interested in viewing or reading such things.

FOX NEWS making it a topic, as if something wrong is occurring, and forcing it into the general conversation is just not appropriate. This teacher is not doing that obviously. Fox is the one pushing it onto millions of people. The teacher simply made a post (for maybe a few thousand prior to Fox) how, if needed, people that are interested can have access to additional information.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Actually, as SEB noted (I posted his quote below), the books are not in a/the school library. Fox appears offended that a teacher would openly post that these resources/books are available to people that find they may want to learn more about such things. I guess Fox finds it unacceptable that a teacher offer additional resources to people.

Ah right. I didn't read the entire article, and it does say the books were not for general circulation, but for the use of extra-curricular clubs. I'm still a bit confused though, as the article says they were having difficulty getting them into general circulation.

Tugger wrote:

And regarding how one wouldn't want bomb making instructions etc. being available in a school, I fully agree. However I don't find consensual sexual activities between peers to be in any way equivalent to learning methods to kill people or destroy property.

I fully agree. It was a clumsy analogy on my part. I'm sure I could have come up with a better one had I spent more time on the post .

No worries. And the comparison is nothing against you. It was just such a big ripe easy target to shoot down

LCDFlight wrote:

No I think they have a point... sexual identity really has ZERO role in typical school or business settings.

People who try to interject their own sexual, gender, or race identity at random, irrelevant times are actually doing something that is troubling. It is off-task and implies that the entire exchange is being influenced by factors that are illegal under federal law. People, and customers/students, are not supposed to be treated differently, at school or at work, based on those factors.

When you make it a topic, that needs to be questioned and understood, to ensure the law isn't being violated.

I don't want to hear about my straight teacher's sex life, and I also don't want to hear about my gay teacher's sex life. That is not a work friendly topic. Keep it out of the workplace. Or, you may face consequences.

Well yes, you should complain to Fox News on their poor decision to wrongly make people who were not interested have to view and read such things.

FOX NEWS making a topic and forcing it into the general conversation is just not appropriate. This teacher is not doing that obviously. Fox is the one pushing it onto millions of people. The teacher simply made a post (for maybe a few thousand prior to Fox) how, if needed, people that are interested can have access to additional information.

Tugg

Posting on personal social media about it is probably fine (unless it is hate speech). Going on and on about your identity in the classroom opens the door to being investigated. Clarence Thomas was too open about his heterosexuality with Anita Hill, for example. Most people would say that this was inappropriate.

Teachers really have no reason to discuss this stuff with students, especially as it relates to them personally. That’s not relevant at work, unless you are a sex therapist or sex worker.

LCDFlight wrote:

Posting on personal social media about it is probably fine (unless it is hate speech). Going on and on about your identity in the classroom opens the door to being investigated. Clarence Thomas was too open about his heterosexuality with Anita Hill, for example. Most people would say that this was inappropriate.

Teachers really have no reason to discuss this stuff with students, especially as it relates to them personally. That’s not relevant at work, unless you are a sex therapist or sex worker.

And that is not being claimed to be being done by the teacher.

Also regarding your notion that sexual identity has ZERO role in typical school or business settings... Why on earth would you say or even think that?

High school is where so much socialization and relationship discovery occurs for so many. With what you are saying these things would be banned in school. Did you not date in high school? Meet girls or boys you liked? Wasn't such things part of daily conversation between you and your friends?

And at work, I don't know of any rules that say people aren't to allowed to talk about their life, weekends or their time with family and wife/husband/partner etc. Have you never been invited to a "plus one" event that the company is hosting? These are fairly normal things for me.

Tugger wrote:

And at work, I don't know of any rules that say people aren't to allowed to talk about their life, weekends or their time with family and wife/husband/partner etc. Have you never been invited to a "plus one" event that the company is hosting? These are fairly normal things for me.

When a lot of conservatives say “sexuality should be kept private” what they really mean is “LGBT people should stay in the closet”.

The mere discovery that someone is LGBT is enough to offend them. “So keep you mouth shut and don’t let me know that you have a same sex partner or are attracted to the same sex as it scares me, and when I get scared I get angry.”

“Oh but I’ll go on all day about my (hererosexual) marriage and kids because that’s promoting good family values……”

LCDFlight wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

Ah right. I didn't read the entire article, and it does say the books were not for general circulation, but for the use of extra-curricular clubs. I'm still a bit confused though, as the article says they were having difficulty getting them into general circulation.


I fully agree. It was a clumsy analogy on my part. I'm sure I could have come up with a better one had I spent more time on the post .

No worries. And the comparison is nothing against you. It was just such a big ripe easy target to shoot down

LCDFlight wrote:

No I think they have a point... sexual identity really has ZERO role in typical school or business settings.

People who try to interject their own sexual, gender, or race identity at random, irrelevant times are actually doing something that is troubling. It is off-task and implies that the entire exchange is being influenced by factors that are illegal under federal law. People, and customers/students, are not supposed to be treated differently, at school or at work, based on those factors.

When you make it a topic, that needs to be questioned and understood, to ensure the law isn't being violated.

I don't want to hear about my straight teacher's sex life, and I also don't want to hear about my gay teacher's sex life. That is not a work friendly topic. Keep it out of the workplace. Or, you may face consequences.

Well yes, you should complain to Fox News on their poor decision to wrongly make people who were not interested have to view and read such things.

FOX NEWS making a topic and forcing it into the general conversation is just not appropriate. This teacher is not doing that obviously. Fox is the one pushing it onto millions of people. The teacher simply made a post (for maybe a few thousand prior to Fox) how, if needed, people that are interested can have access to additional information.

Tugg

Posting on personal social media about it is probably fine (unless it is hate speech). Going on and on about your identity in the classroom opens the door to being investigated. Clarence Thomas was too open about his heterosexuality with Anita Hill, for example. Most people would say that this was inappropriate.

Teachers really have no reason to discuss this stuff with students, especially as it relates to them personally. That’s not relevant at work, unless you are a sex therapist or sex worker.

As you may or may not know, I grew up in rural Oregon. I started figuring out my sexuality before the AIDS crisis began. I was crushing on one of my classmates, Allen. At first, I didn't think anything of it. Then, I noticed the other boys talking about girls and how they liked this girl or that girl. Then the AIDS crisis hit. As I was still figuring things out. We all were. Back in those days, we did not have the internet or "safe spaces" or people who said they would be there if we had questions outside of heterosexuality. Some people even thought AIDS was great because it would rid the world of the unclean gays. Yes, people around me. In high school, the only adult I thought was gay was the choir teacher and he was super creepy.

I finally got into college and found people who were accepting. This was the early 1990s. They had questions but they were accepting and made me feel like a person and not an outcast.

Sometimes kids need someone to talk to. Someone who they think looks like them and talks like them. Why is that such a nightmare for some people?

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/09/11220109 ... tory-month

I mean, it's things like this that are disappointing. 5 years ago this would have been approved in a voice vote - track to today and you have an anti-LGBTQ mob sitting in the crowd cheering on as they reject LGBTQ History Month.

There's no denying that the language and the behavior has become coarse at best around sexual minorities, particularly the animus around the T. What's this "indoctrination" that people are so afraid of? Recent studies of Gen Z show us the most bisexual generation in world history, you're not telling me that you can't talk about gay people to 17 and 18 year olds? Believe me, they're aware.

LCDFlight wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

Ah right. I didn't read the entire article, and it does say the books were not for general circulation, but for the use of extra-curricular clubs. I'm still a bit confused though, as the article says they were having difficulty getting them into general circulation.


I fully agree. It was a clumsy analogy on my part. I'm sure I could have come up with a better one had I spent more time on the post .

No worries. And the comparison is nothing against you. It was just such a big ripe easy target to shoot down

LCDFlight wrote:

No I think they have a point... sexual identity really has ZERO role in typical school or business settings.

People who try to interject their own sexual, gender, or race identity at random, irrelevant times are actually doing something that is troubling. It is off-task and implies that the entire exchange is being influenced by factors that are illegal under federal law. People, and customers/students, are not supposed to be treated differently, at school or at work, based on those factors.

When you make it a topic, that needs to be questioned and understood, to ensure the law isn't being violated.

I don't want to hear about my straight teacher's sex life, and I also don't want to hear about my gay teacher's sex life. That is not a work friendly topic. Keep it out of the workplace. Or, you may face consequences.

Well yes, you should complain to Fox News on their poor decision to wrongly make people who were not interested have to view and read such things.

FOX NEWS making a topic and forcing it into the general conversation is just not appropriate. This teacher is not doing that obviously. Fox is the one pushing it onto millions of people. The teacher simply made a post (for maybe a few thousand prior to Fox) how, if needed, people that are interested can have access to additional information.

Tugg

Posting on personal social media about it is probably fine (unless it is hate speech). Going on and on about your identity in the classroom opens the door to being investigated. Clarence Thomas was too open about his heterosexuality with Anita Hill, for example. Most people would say that this was inappropriate.

Teachers really have no reason to discuss this stuff with students, especially as it relates to them personally. That’s not relevant at work, unless you are a sex therapist or sex worker.

Are you seriously equating sexual harassment with simply mentioning a husband/wife/partner?

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Tugger wrote:

No worries. And the comparison is nothing against you. It was just such a big ripe easy target to shoot down


Well yes, you should complain to Fox News on their poor decision to wrongly make people who were not interested have to view and read such things.

FOX NEWS making a topic and forcing it into the general conversation is just not appropriate. This teacher is not doing that obviously. Fox is the one pushing it onto millions of people. The teacher simply made a post (for maybe a few thousand prior to Fox) how, if needed, people that are interested can have access to additional information.

Tugg

Posting on personal social media about it is probably fine (unless it is hate speech). Going on and on about your identity in the classroom opens the door to being investigated. Clarence Thomas was too open about his heterosexuality with Anita Hill, for example. Most people would say that this was inappropriate.

Teachers really have no reason to discuss this stuff with students, especially as it relates to them personally. That’s not relevant at work, unless you are a sex therapist or sex worker.

As you may or may not know, I grew up in rural Oregon. I started figuring out my sexuality before the AIDS crisis began. I was crushing on one of my classmates, Allen. At first, I didn't think anything of it. Then, I noticed the other boys talking about girls and how they liked this girl or that girl. Then the AIDS crisis hit. As I was still figuring things out. We all were. Back in those days, we did not have the internet or "safe spaces" or people who said they would be there if we had questions outside of heterosexuality. Some people even thought AIDS was great because it would rid the world of the unclean gays. Yes, people around me. In high school, the only adult I thought was gay was the choir teacher and he was super creepy.

I finally got into college and found people who were accepting. This was the early 1990s. They had questions but they were accepting and made me feel like a person and not an outcast.

Sometimes kids need someone to talk to. Someone who they think looks like them and talks like them. Why is that such a nightmare for some people?

Conservatives still hate LGBTQ people--if not even more than the 80s. The whole point of the drag queen/safe space/LGBQT/critical race theory hysterias is to erase those communities and remind them they are to be neither seen nor heard.

bluecrew wrote:

h

There's no denying that the language and the behavior has become coarse at best around sexual minorities, particularly the animus around the T. What's this "indoctrination" that people are so afraid of? Recent studies of Gen Z show us the most bisexual generation in world history, you're not telling me that you can't talk about gay people to 17 and 18 year olds? Believe me, they're aware.

I recently heard some feedback from even younger people, 15-16 year olds. I was shocked about how mature and accepting they are of the LGBT community. Back when I was in high school the mere rumour or labelling of a student as possibly gay would move been enough to see them the victim of bullying, assault and harassment.

Now (according to this feedback from the younger generation) LGBT people are accepted in high school, there are open same sex couples and they openly hold hands and show affection in public areas of the school like a straight couple. Formal or prom dates being same gender is common, again unthinkable in my era. Students who are gender transitioning too are accepted, for most students it’s no big deal. The kids also seemed aware of all the various types of hormones used to transition.

The acceptance of the LGBT community amongst the current high school generation is leaps and bounds ahead of the generation that is trying to shove gay people back inside the closet. Don’t something like 20% of Gen Z identify as other than straight?

Edit: yes they do:

https://www.axios.com/2022/02/17/lgbtq- ... n-z-gallup

My thoughts are the current high schoolers (2004-2008) would be even higher than 21% LGBT

sierrakilo44 wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

h

There's no denying that the language and the behavior has become coarse at best around sexual minorities, particularly the animus around the T. What's this "indoctrination" that people are so afraid of? Recent studies of Gen Z show us the most bisexual generation in world history, you're not telling me that you can't talk about gay people to 17 and 18 year olds? Believe me, they're aware.

I recently heard some feedback from even younger people, 15-16 year olds. I was shocked about how mature and accepting they are of the LGBT community. Back when I was in high school the mere rumour or labelling of a student as possibly gay would move been enough to see them the victim of bullying, assault and harassment.

Now (according to this feedback from the younger generation) LGBT people are accepted in high school, there are open same sex couples and they openly hold hands and show affection in public areas of the school like a straight couple. Formal or prom dates being same gender is common, again unthinkable in my era. Students who are gender transitioning too are accepted, for most students it’s no big deal. The kids also seemed aware of all the various types of hormones used to transition.

The acceptance of the LGBT community amongst the current high school generation is leaps and bounds ahead of the generation that is trying to shove gay people back inside the closet. Don’t something like 20% of Gen Z identify as other than straight?

Edit: yes they do:

https://www.axios.com/2022/02/17/lgbtq- ... n-z-gallup

My thoughts are the current high schoolers (2004-2008) would be even higher than 21% LGBT

Yeah that was my point. Gen Z is the gayest generation ever. If you're going to talk to a room of 17 year olds about sex and relationships and conspicuously leave out LGBTQ folks, it will go over like you're wearing a smoking jacket, vest, and top hat, and puffing on a pipe.

Reality has moved a lot further than reactionary bigotry.

bluecrew wrote:

sierrakilo44 wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

h

There's no denying that the language and the behavior has become coarse at best around sexual minorities, particularly the animus around the T. What's this "indoctrination" that people are so afraid of? Recent studies of Gen Z show us the most bisexual generation in world history, you're not telling me that you can't talk about gay people to 17 and 18 year olds? Believe me, they're aware.

I recently heard some feedback from even younger people, 15-16 year olds. I was shocked about how mature and accepting they are of the LGBT community. Back when I was in high school the mere rumour or labelling of a student as possibly gay would move been enough to see them the victim of bullying, assault and harassment.

Now (according to this feedback from the younger generation) LGBT people are accepted in high school, there are open same sex couples and they openly hold hands and show affection in public areas of the school like a straight couple. Formal or prom dates being same gender is common, again unthinkable in my era. Students who are gender transitioning too are accepted, for most students it’s no big deal. The kids also seemed aware of all the various types of hormones used to transition.

The acceptance of the LGBT community amongst the current high school generation is leaps and bounds ahead of the generation that is trying to shove gay people back inside the closet. Don’t something like 20% of Gen Z identify as other than straight?

Edit: yes they do:

https://www.axios.com/2022/02/17/lgbtq- ... n-z-gallup

My thoughts are the current high schoolers (2004-2008) would be even higher than 21% LGBT

Yeah that was my point. Gen Z is the gayest generation ever. If you're going to talk to a room of 17 year olds about sex and relationships and conspicuously leave out LGBTQ folks, it will go over like you're wearing a smoking jacket, vest, and top hat, and puffing on a pipe.

Reality has moved a lot further than reactionary bigotry.

My 14yo knows the sexuality and sexual preferences of most of his classmates. His best friend is no -binary. To my 19yo people are just what they are.

Small minded people are small minded the world over, but we still need to call them out.

Kent350787 wrote:

My 14yo knows the sexuality and sexual preferences of most of his classmates. His best friend is no -binary. To my 19yo people are just what they are.

Small minded people are small minded the world over, but we still need to call them out.

Yep and that too, I know kids who remind their parents to use “they/them” pronouns when a non binary friend of theirs comes to visit.

Now in my workplace (and I’m a millennial, so I’m not that old) if anyone used “they/them” pronouns there would be weird looks to their face and then open ridicule behind their backs. And my generation is usually pretty tolerant of gay people, trans and non binary not so much. Trans and non binary people are today where Gays and Lesbians were 20/30 years ago.

Society has really changed for the generation coming of age in just the last 5 or so years.

Not into this pronoun stuff.

Just call me David.

I am GenX and I work with two boomers. One has a child who transitioned and uses he/him pronouns and we work with a Millennial who uses they/them. No one questions it, we just go with it. There are those from all generations who refuse to. I don't understand why giving someone else legitimacy and a self esteem boost is bad. Understanding and accepting that some people use different pronouns makes zero difference in my life. How another adult chooses to live does not make my life any better or worse.

seb146 wrote:

There are those from all generations who refuse to.

Part of the problem is people being forced into doing something they may do anyway. I would be part of that curmudgeonly cohort. I'll bend over backwards for people -- when I want to, but put me in a position of being told to do something, then the brakes go on, big time. I always refer to drag queens as "she", out of courtesy, when clearly it's a "he". I have no problem doing that. I'm not sure I'd have the will (or capacity) to remember everone's pronouns, but certainly if I knew and liked the person I'd manage it. For someone I didn't know, particularly if I suspected they were doing it for attention, (which, I suspect, some do) I wouldn't.

Braybuddy wrote:

Part of the problem is people being forced into doing something they may do anyway. I would be part of that curmudgeonly cohort. I'll bend over backwards for people -- when I want to, but put me in a position of being told to do something, then the brakes go on, big time. I always refer to drag queens as "she", out of courtesy, when clearly it's a "he". I have no problem doing that. I'm not sure I'd have the will (or capacity) to remember everone's pronouns, but certainly if I knew and liked the person I'd manage it. For someone I didn't know, particularly if I suspected they were doing it for attention, (which, I suspect, some do) I wouldn't.

+1 - well said.
There's something about 'being compelled' to use certain pronouns that smells of a lack of respect in the other direction. Respect breeds respect.

DH106 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

Part of the problem is people being forced into doing something they may do anyway. I would be part of that curmudgeonly cohort. I'll bend over backwards for people -- when I want to, but put me in a position of being told to do something, then the brakes go on, big time. I always refer to drag queens as "she", out of courtesy, when clearly it's a "he". I have no problem doing that. I'm not sure I'd have the will (or capacity) to remember everone's pronouns, but certainly if I knew and liked the person I'd manage it. For someone I didn't know, particularly if I suspected they were doing it for attention, (which, I suspect, some do) I wouldn't.

+1 - well said.
There's something about 'being compelled' to use certain pronouns that smells of a lack of respect in the other direction. Respect breeds respect.

I don’t understand what “lack of respect” is involved here. If I tell you I’m Mrs. and you insist on calling me Miss or Mr.—where is the respect? It makes no sense to me.

MaverickM11 wrote:

I don’t understand what “lack of respect” is involved here. If I tell you I’m Mrs. and you insist on calling me Miss or Mr.—where is the respect? It makes no sense to me.

You are appearing as a Mr and insisting I call you Mrs. I'm being told to play make believe. I can play along if I like and respect you, but you'll probably have to earn that respect first.

Braybuddy wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

I don’t understand what “lack of respect” is involved here. If I tell you I’m Mrs. and you insist on calling me Miss or Mr.—where is the respect? It makes no sense to me.

You are appearing as a Mr and insisting I call you Mrs. I'm being told to play make believe. I can play along if I like and respect you, but you'll probably have to earn that respect first.

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this is some micro-offense against ya. Just be nice to others and not a jerk. And if that means using someone's preferred pronouns, just do that thing.

People get brought in front of people in HR for less. The world gives back the energy you give.

Braybuddy wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

I don’t understand what “lack of respect” is involved here. If I tell you I’m Mrs. and you insist on calling me Miss or Mr.—where is the respect? It makes no sense to me.

You are appearing as a Mr and insisting I call you Mrs. I'm being told to play make believe. I can play along if I like and respect you, but you'll probably have to earn that respect first.

How do you determine how someone appears? Genital check? DNA test?

bluecrew wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this is some micro-offense against ya. Just be nice to others and not a jerk. And if that means using someone's preferred pronouns, just do that thing.

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do, especially if somone is trying to wind me up. See my previous post above. I can be pretty cantankerous when I want to be.

MaverickM11 wrote:

How do you determine how someone appears? Genital check? DNA test?

A pair of eyes and ears are good enough.

Braybuddy wrote:

[...] For someone I didn't know, particularly if I suspected they were doing it for attention, (which, I suspect, some do) I wouldn't.

There are really to elements here, one is regarding people one doesn't know, and the other is people doing this (pronouns) for attention.

For people I don't know I approach anyone and everyone as I see them or perceive them. I can't do much else. Most always this has been fine and nothing is even said even if there is something different that the person prefers. However if there is a regular or repeated interaction, I am not offended or have an issue if the person notes how they prefer to be addressed.

I do though have an issue if someone gets offended right off the bat.

Now, regrading the second element, I do have to ask why anyone would "do this to get attention"? I mean I guess someone might just to mock people but in general I can't see anyone doing it unless it meant something to them.

Tugg

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Tugger wrote:

No worries. And the comparison is nothing against you. It was just such a big ripe easy target to shoot down


Well yes, you should complain to Fox News on their poor decision to wrongly make people who were not interested have to view and read such things.

FOX NEWS making a topic and forcing it into the general conversation is just not appropriate. This teacher is not doing that obviously. Fox is the one pushing it onto millions of people. The teacher simply made a post (for maybe a few thousand prior to Fox) how, if needed, people that are interested can have access to additional information.

Tugg

Posting on personal social media about it is probably fine (unless it is hate speech). Going on and on about your identity in the classroom opens the door to being investigated. Clarence Thomas was too open about his heterosexuality with Anita Hill, for example. Most people would say that this was inappropriate.

Teachers really have no reason to discuss this stuff with students, especially as it relates to them personally. That’s not relevant at work, unless you are a sex therapist or sex worker.

As you may or may not know, I grew up in rural Oregon. I started figuring out my sexuality before the AIDS crisis began. I was crushing on one of my classmates, Allen. At first, I didn't think anything of it. Then, I noticed the other boys talking about girls and how they liked this girl or that girl. Then the AIDS crisis hit. As I was still figuring things out. We all were. Back in those days, we did not have the internet or "safe spaces" or people who said they would be there if we had questions outside of heterosexuality. Some people even thought AIDS was great because it would rid the world of the unclean gays. Yes, people around me. In high school, the only adult I thought was gay was the choir teacher and he was super creepy.

I finally got into college and found people who were accepting. This was the early 1990s. They had questions but they were accepting and made me feel like a person and not an outcast.

Sometimes kids need someone to talk to. Someone who they think looks like them and talks like them. Why is that such a nightmare for some people?

I think the most likely reason is that they have unresolved feeling of homosexuality and also think they’ll be sent to eternal hell for thinking these things.
As such, they’re scared.

Braybuddy wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this is some micro-offense against ya. Just be nice to others and not a jerk. And if that means using someone's preferred pronouns, just do that thing.

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do, especially if somone is trying to wind me up. See my previous post above. I can be pretty cantankerous when I want to be.

MaverickM11 wrote:

How do you determine how someone appears? Genital check? DNA test?

A pair of eyes and ears are good enough.

So for instance, say you meet someone that you know as, I dunno, Mrs. Jones. When you meet, Mrs Jones says “Please, call me Leslie”. Would this fall under the umbrella of things that you feel forced to do and will transform into a grumpy old man?

SL1200MK2 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this is some micro-offense against ya. Just be nice to others and not a jerk. And if that means using someone's preferred pronouns, just do that thing.

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do, especially if somone is trying to wind me up. See my previous post above. I can be pretty cantankerous when I want to be.

MaverickM11 wrote:

How do you determine how someone appears? Genital check? DNA test?

A pair of eyes and ears are good enough.

So for instance, say you meet someone that you know as, I dunno, Mrs. Jones. When you meet, Mrs Jones says “Please, call me Leslie”. Would this fall under the umbrella of things that you feel forced to do and will transform into a grumpy old man?

That is a great example!

Braybuddy wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this is some micro-offense against ya. Just be nice to others and not a jerk. And if that means using someone's preferred pronouns, just do that thing.

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do, especially if somone is trying to wind me up. See my previous post above. I can be pretty cantankerous when I want to be.

MaverickM11 wrote:

How do you determine how someone appears? Genital check? DNA test?

A pair of eyes and ears are good enough.

And when you inevitably get it wrong, and they correct you, what will you do?

MaverickM11 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this is some micro-offense against ya. Just be nice to others and not a jerk. And if that means using someone's preferred pronouns, just do that thing.

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do, especially if somone is trying to wind me up. See my previous post above. I can be pretty cantankerous when I want to be.

MaverickM11 wrote:

How do you determine how someone appears? Genital check? DNA test?

A pair of eyes and ears are good enough.

And when you inevitably get it wrong, and they correct you, what will you do?

I know the question wasn’t asked of me, but I figured I’d share how I deal with this. Most likely it wouldn’t happen because well, here in the Bay Area we tend to get lots of folks who prefer a different pronoun than may be expected. In any case, let’s say I did.

Typically I apologize and from then on refer to them how they wish. Then, I get on with having a life that offers enough that pronouns dont upset me. Further, I have enough autonomy in my life that being requested to respect someone’s wishes about a word doesn’t makes me feel forced to do anything.

I have been to technical conferences where people have dressed as drag or the other sex. While it has made me uncomfortable, it also told me how I have put myself in a box. And then I had a thought experiment. What if you met an alien race that was all non-binary, trans whatever you prefer? How would I/we deal with it? And by aliens, I mean extraterrestrials, intelligent beings from another planet. It is a supposition that they would have to be male or female. Even in the animal kingdom, mammal as well as reptile kingdom there are enough non-binary 'characters' that tell you that the possibility exists. It makes more sense to be able to say pronouns of however a person identifies himself/herself or whatever and move on. There are more than enough questions in life to make it interesting.

Tugger wrote:

Now, regrading the second element, I do have to ask why anyone would "do this to get attention"? I mean I guess someone might just to mock people but in general I can't see anyone doing it unless it meant something to them.

Tugg

Growing up we like to carve out identities for ourselves. Be part of a club, or tribe. Indeed, since the word "teenager" was coined, it has been almost de rigeur to identify with some sort of subgroup. You've had mod, rockers, hippies, punks, new romantics, emos etc, etc (we are not going to discuss my David Bowie phase here ). It's all taken very seriously and we eventually grow out of it. Plus, we like to shock by the way we dress and behave, and attract attention. It's part of the job description, and fun, of being a teenager. Because someone's feelings are so subjective I have no way of knowing if they are genuine in telling me how they identify. So I'm probably going to be somewhat cynical when someone announces something that I have not inquired about, and which I have no way of verifying.

SL1200MK2 wrote:

So for instance, say you meet someone that you know as, I dunno, Mrs. Jones. When you meet, Mrs Jones says “Please, call me Leslie”. Would this fall under the umbrella of things that you feel forced to do and will transform into a grumpy old man?

I'm not forced to call her anything. It's not going to arise in the initial conversation as I would be referring to her as "you". Behind her back I'll refer to her whatever way I want. Probably "Mrs Jones" if I don't particularly warm to her, "Leslie" if I do. I could also freely use any number of other adjectives -- and none of them complimentary -- if I don't take to her at all.

If you believe you must refer to someone as "they" or "them", to third parties to be respectful, have you never been disrespectful to someone and referred them in derogatory terms behind their back?

MaverickM11 wrote:

And when you inevitably get it wrong, and they correct you, what will you do?

Depends on the situation. If I like them I will, if I don't I won't.

Braybuddy wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Now, regrading the second element, I do have to ask why anyone would "do this to get attention"? I mean I guess someone might just to mock people but in general I can't see anyone doing it unless it meant something to them.

Tugg

Growing up we like to carve out identities for ourselves. Be part of a club, or tribe. Indeed, since the word "teenager" was coined, it has been almost de rigeur to identify with some sort of subgroup. You've had mod, rockers, hippies, punks, new romantics, emos etc, etc (we are not going to discuss my David Bowie phase here ). It's all taken very seriously and we eventually grow out of it. Plus, we like to shock by the way we dress and behave, and attract attention. It's part of the job description, and fun, of being a teenager. Because someone's feelings are so subjective I have no way of knowing if they are genuine in telling me how they identify. So I'm probably going to be somewhat cynical when someone announces something that I have not inquired about, and which I have no way of verifying.

SL1200MK2 wrote:

So for instance, say you meet someone that you know as, I dunno, Mrs. Jones. When you meet, Mrs Jones says “Please, call me Leslie”. Would this fall under the umbrella of things that you feel forced to do and will transform into a grumpy old man?

I'm not forced to call her anything. It's not going to arise in the initial conversation as I would be referring to her as "you". Behind her back I'll refer to her whatever way I want. Probably "Mrs Jones" if I don't particularly warm to her, "Leslie" if I do. I could also freely use any number of other adjectives -- and none of them complimentary -- if I don't take to her at all.

If you believe you must refer to someone as "they" or "them", to third parties to be respectful, have you never been disrespectful to someone and referred them in derogatory terms behind their back?

MaverickM11 wrote:

And when you inevitably get it wrong, and they correct you, what will you do?

Depends on the situation. If I like them I will, if I don't I won't.

You spend a lot of time and effort being pointlessly ugly to other people while whining about being disrespected. That's...a choice.

Braybuddy wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this is some micro-offense against ya. Just be nice to others and not a jerk. And if that means using someone's preferred pronouns, just do that thing.

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do, especially if somone is trying to wind me up. See my previous post above. I can be pretty cantankerous when I want to be.

I’m sorry…but is an adult seriously trying justify acting like a child? Because that’s what it looks like. I’m gonna poke you in the eye just to show you I can! Harumph!

Braybuddy wrote:

SL1200MK2 wrote:

So for instance, say you meet someone that you know as, I dunno, Mrs. Jones. When you meet, Mrs Jones says “Please, call me Leslie”. Would this fall under the umbrella of things that you feel forced to do and will transform into a grumpy old man?

I'm not forced to call her anything. It's not going to arise in the initial conversation as I would be referring to her as "you". Behind her back I'll refer to her whatever way I want. Probably "Mrs Jones" if I don't particularly warm to her, "Leslie" if I do. I could also freely use any number of other adjectives -- and none of them complimentary -- if I don't take to her at all.

If you believe you must refer to someone as "they" or "them", to third parties to be respectful, have you never been disrespectful to someone and referred them in derogatory terms behind their back?

Plenty of people say rotten stuff behind my back, probably. I don't know because why should I care? If they are respectful to me and where I can hear them, that's all I care about. I think the whole issue with pronouns has to do with people we deal with on a regular basis like family and classmates and co-workers, not a one-time meeting with the head of the Scranton office.

Your one remark about "going through a phase" reminded me that I did go through a "she/her" phase. I still refer to myself as she/her when I want to make a point about me. At the end of the day, I don't stress about pronouns if I am passing someone in the aisle at the market. I don't even stress about it with co-workers or family because, at the end of the day, if you respect someone and they respect you back, there is no stress at all.

MaverickM11 wrote:

You spend a lot of time and effort being pointlessly ugly to other people while whining about being disrespected. That's...a choice.

A sweeping and wholly inacurrate generalisation. Speaks volumes when you attack the person and avoid the argument.

luckyone wrote:

I’m sorry…but is an adult seriously trying justify acting like a child? Because that’s what it looks like. I’m gonna poke you in the eye just to show you I can! Harumph!

When dealing with children . . .

seb146 wrote:

At the end of the day, I don't stress about pronouns if I am passing someone in the aisle at the market. I don't even stress about it with co-workers or family because, at the end of the day, if you respect someone and they respect you back, there is no stress at all.

Well good for you. I just hope you always get all your pronouns correct.

Feeling a bit carnaptious lately Braybuddy?

seb146 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

I'm not forced to call her anything. It's not going to arise in the initial conversation as I would be referring to her as "you". Behind her back I'll refer to her whatever way I want. Probably "Mrs Jones" if I don't particularly warm to her, "Leslie" if I do. I could also freely use any number of other adjectives -- and none of them complimentary -- if I don't take to her at all.

If you believe you must refer to someone as "they" or "them", to third parties to be respectful, have you never been disrespectful to someone and referred them in derogatory terms behind their back?

Plenty of people say rotten stuff behind my back, probably. I don't know because why should I care? If they are respectful to me and where I can hear them, that's all I care about. I think the whole issue with pronouns has to do with people we deal with on a regular basis like family and classmates and co-workers, not a one-time meeting with the head of the Scranton office.

Your one remark about "going through a phase" reminded me that I did go through a "she/her" phase. I still refer to myself as she/her when I want to make a point about me. At the end of the day, I don't stress about pronouns if I am passing someone in the aisle at the market. I don't even stress about it with co-workers or family because, at the end of the day, if you respect someone and they respect you back, there is no stress at all.

Gotta agree here.

Tugg

Braybuddy wrote:

.

luckyone wrote:

I’m sorry…but is an adult seriously trying justify acting like a child? Because that’s what it looks like. I’m gonna poke you in the eye just to show you I can! Harumph!

When dealing with children . . .

Let me finish that for you…when dealing with children one acts like an adult. Otherwise one is just the tallest person in the room.

Braybuddy wrote:

I'll bend over backwards for people -- when I want to

Very big of you.

Braybuddy wrote:

, but put me in a position of being told to do something, then the brakes go on, big time.

Clearly.

Braybuddy wrote:

I always refer to drag queens as "she", out of courtesy, when clearly it's a "he". I have no problem doing that.

Only drag queens? So if they are putting on a show then you're happy to use female pronouns. If they have gender dysphoria... it's not something you can be forced to deal with? To understand? To accept?

Braybuddy wrote:

if I knew and liked the person I'd manage it.

Well done you.

Braybuddy wrote:

I can play along if I like and respect you

If you respected them then you wouldn't need to play at anything.

Braybuddy wrote:

but you'll probably have to earn that respect first.

Do you think people respect you and your opinions?

Braybuddy wrote:

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do

Might that be your weakness rather than someone else's?

Braybuddy wrote:

A pair of eyes and ears are good enough

...but only if you look and listen.

Braybuddy wrote:

Growing up we like to carve out identities for ourselves. Be part of a club, or tribe. Indeed, since the word "teenager" was coined, it has been almost de rigeur to identify with some sort of subgroup. You've had mod, rockers, hippies, punks, new romantics, emos etc, etc (we are not going to discuss my David Bowie phase here ). It's all taken very seriously and we eventually grow out of it.

Are you suggesting that gender dysphoria is a phase that someone is playing at to be de rigeur and that they'll eventually grow out of it? It's the equivalent of a fashion that they chose on the spur of the moment to appear trendy?

Braybuddy wrote:

If I like them I will, if I don't I won't

Pretty much sums up all of your comments.

Tugger wrote:

Feeling a bit carnaptious lately Braybuddy?

Going by the feathers I've ruffled in here I seem to be nailing it!

luckyone wrote:

Let me finish that for you…when dealing with children one acts like an adult. Otherwise one is just the tallest person in the room.

I think you got that the wrong way around!

Virtual737 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

I'll bend over backwards for people -- when I want to

Very big of you.

Braybuddy wrote:

, but put me in a position of being told to do something, then the brakes go on, big time.

Clearly.

Braybuddy wrote:

I always refer to drag queens as "she", out of courtesy, when clearly it's a "he". I have no problem doing that.

Only drag queens? So if they are putting on a show then you're happy to use female pronouns. If they have gender dysphoria... it's not something you can be forced to deal with? To understand? To accept?

Braybuddy wrote:

if I knew and liked the person I'd manage it.

Well done you.

Braybuddy wrote:

I can play along if I like and respect you

If you respected them then you wouldn't need to play at anything.

Braybuddy wrote:

but you'll probably have to earn that respect first.

Do you think people respect you and your opinions?

Braybuddy wrote:

I get pretty annoyed at being told what to do

Might that be your weakness rather than someone else's?

Braybuddy wrote:

A pair of eyes and ears are good enough

...but only if you look and listen.

Braybuddy wrote:

Growing up we like to carve out identities for ourselves. Be part of a club, or tribe. Indeed, since the word "teenager" was coined, it has been almost de rigeur to identify with some sort of subgroup. You've had mod, rockers, hippies, punks, new romantics, emos etc, etc (we are not going to discuss my David Bowie phase here ). It's all taken very seriously and we eventually grow out of it.

Are you suggesting that gender dysphoria is a phase that someone is playing at to be de rigeur and that they'll eventually grow out of it? It's the equivalent of a fashion that they chose on the spur of the moment to appear trendy?

Braybuddy wrote:

If I like them I will, if I don't I won't

Pretty much sums up all of your comments.

See reply to Tugger above (x10)

Braybuddy wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

You spend a lot of time and effort being pointlessly ugly to other people while whining about being disrespected. That's...a choice.

A sweeping and wholly inacurrate generalisation. Speaks volumes when you attack the person and avoid the argument.

What argument? I was literally repeating your words back to you.