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readytotaxi
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EU in conflict with Hungary.

Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:26 pm

EU moves to cut $7.5bn funding for Hungary over corruption.
The 27-nation EU bloc has three months to decide on the suspension of funding for Hungary over charges of damaging democracy.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/1 ... corruption
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

Hungarian civil liberties groups have welcomed a new EU report that says the country cannot be considered a full democracy.
The EU parliament voted to approve the report on Thursday, which accused Prime Minister Viktor Orban of creating an "electoral autocracy".

He has been in power now around a decade and finally the EU says enough is enough, and then gives him another 3 months.
 
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seb146
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:03 pm

Orban also hosted the American CPAC, the right wing political conference last spring

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/10996805 ... in-hungary
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/vikt ... -rcna40199

He is a world wide problem
 
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Francoflier
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:09 pm

Well, no one has ever the EU of acting too fast...

It's also about time they set rules for remaining in the EU, not just for entering.

seb146 wrote:
Orban also hosted the American CPAC, the right wing political conference last spring

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/10996805 ... in-hungary
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/vikt ... -rcna40199

He is a world wide problem



He is part of a World wide problem. One in which autocratic leaders and dictators are trying to legitimize and revive the power of their totalitarian and oppressive systems against the 'Western' model of democracy and freedom.
 
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casinterest
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:18 pm

It will be interesting to see how Hungary and Orban respond.

Will they move farther to the right? Will 5% really hurt Hungary?

We will have to see.
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:49 pm

There is no rule against staying in power for a long time, cue Angela Merkel. But subverting the justice system, the press, etc., to ensure that position of power is the problem.

The EU can't continue to finance such a country, and an exclusion should be a possibility.

Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.
 
marcelh
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:58 am

It looks Poland doesn’t like the steps towards Hungary:
https://www.politico.eu/article/commission-suggests-funding-cut-for-hungary-but-opens-compromise-path/amp/

” The Polish government — which has also been in the Commission’s crosshairs over rule-of-law issues — promptly indicated that it would resist any move to suspend funds.

“Poland will strongly oppose any actions of European institutions that intend to illegally deprive any member states of funds, in this case Hungary in particular,” Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said on Sunday, the state-run news agency PAP reported.”


So Poland opposes Hungarian position towards Russia, but are BFF when opposing the EU.

Guess who has benefited Poland since 2004?
https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

”Poland has received three times as much money than it has paid to the EU budget since joining the bloc in 2004, according to the Polish Economic Institute (PIE), a government think-tank.

In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.”
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:09 am

Aesma wrote:
There is no rule against staying in power for a long time, cue Angela Merkel. But subverting the justice system, the press, etc., to ensure that position of power is the problem.

The EU can't continue to finance such a country, and an exclusion should be a possibility.

Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.


How is this any different to what Poland has also done, IMO they are both as bad as each other.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:14 am

marcelh wrote:
So Poland opposes Hungarian position towards Russia, but are BFF when opposing the EU.

Guess who has benefited Poland since 2004?
https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

”Poland has received three times as much money than it has paid to the EU budget since joining the bloc in 2004, according to the Polish Economic Institute (PIE), a government think-tank.

In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.”


Aesma wrote:
Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.


In the face of potentially losing EU funding, Hungary seeks to rapidly deploy anti-graft and anti-corruption bills to assuage Brussels:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:20 am

Francoflier wrote:
marcelh wrote:
So Poland opposes Hungarian position towards Russia, but are BFF when opposing the EU.

Guess who has benefited Poland since 2004?
https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

”Poland has received three times as much money than it has paid to the EU budget since joining the bloc in 2004, according to the Polish Economic Institute (PIE), a government think-tank.

In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.”


Aesma wrote:
Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.


In the face of potentially losing EU funding, Hungary seeks to rapidly deploy anti-graft and anti-corruption bills to assuage Brussels:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?


I wonder if they miss the "Iron Curtain"? :duck:
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:11 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
There is no rule against staying in power for a long time, cue Angela Merkel. But subverting the justice system, the press, etc., to ensure that position of power is the problem.

The EU can't continue to finance such a country, and an exclusion should be a possibility.

Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.


How is this any different to what Poland has also done, IMO they are both as bad as each other.


Not very different, I have the same position with Poland.
 
JJJ
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:31 am

Francoflier wrote:
It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?


It counts as owning the libs in their book.
 
Redd
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:45 pm

Francoflier wrote:
marcelh wrote:
So Poland opposes Hungarian position towards Russia, but are BFF when opposing the EU.

Guess who has benefited Poland since 2004?
https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

”Poland has received three times as much money than it has paid to the EU budget since joining the bloc in 2004, according to the Polish Economic Institute (PIE), a government think-tank.

In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.”


Aesma wrote:
Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.


In the face of potentially losing EU funding, Hungary seeks to rapidly deploy anti-graft and anti-corruption bills to assuage Brussels:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?


Poland is the EU'S largest supplier of cheap skilled labour. Countries like Norway, Sweden, Germany and Holland would cease to function if all the Poles returned home.

Hungary, Romania, Czech and Slovakia to a smaller but similar degree. Its the leverage these countries have against the EU.

The EU needs these countries, and these countries need the EU. Nothing will change, just political grandstanding.
 
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Tugger
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:42 pm

Francoflier wrote:
In the face of potentially losing EU funding, Hungary seeks to rapidly deploy anti-graft and anti-corruption bills to assuage Brussels:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?

I am guessing these bills are just delaying tactics. Intended to never be enforced (would their judiciary do anything?) and only passed assuage the EU for a brief time and reset the clock for another four or five years of EU hand-wringing.

Tugg
 
marcelh
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:55 pm

Redd wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
marcelh wrote:
So Poland opposes Hungarian position towards Russia, but are BFF when opposing the EU.

Guess who has benefited Poland since 2004?
https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274



Aesma wrote:
Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.


In the face of potentially losing EU funding, Hungary seeks to rapidly deploy anti-graft and anti-corruption bills to assuage Brussels:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?


Poland is the EU'S largest supplier of cheap skilled labour. Countries like Norway, Sweden, Germany and Holland would cease to function if all the Poles returned home.

Hungary, Romania, Czech and Slovakia to a smaller but similar degree. Its the leverage these countries have against the EU.

The EU needs these countries, and these countries need the EU. Nothing will change, just political grandstanding.


We’ll see….
 
Redd
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:59 am

marcelh wrote:
Redd wrote:
Francoflier wrote:



In the face of potentially losing EU funding, Hungary seeks to rapidly deploy anti-graft and anti-corruption bills to assuage Brussels:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?


Poland is the EU'S largest supplier of cheap skilled labour. Countries like Norway, Sweden, Germany and Holland would cease to function if all the Poles returned home.

Hungary, Romania, Czech and Slovakia to a smaller but similar degree. Its the leverage these countries have against the EU.

The EU needs these countries, and these countries need the EU. Nothing will change, just political grandstanding.


We’ll see….



We have already.
 
Arion640
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:42 pm

Could this be the start of the winding up of the EU?
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:52 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Could this be the start of the winding up of the EU?
I thought Brexit was that?

Or is this the next hope as it didn't then?
 
Arion640
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:04 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Could this be the start of the winding up of the EU?
I thought Brexit was that?

Or is this the next hope as it didn't then?


Oh dear. It was only a question.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:49 pm

27 EU members, it was never designed for that, what a mess.
 
marcelh
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:50 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Could this be the start of the winding up of the EU?
I thought Brexit was that?

Or is this the next hope as it didn't then?


Oh dear. It was only a question.


You asking “only a question”? Considering you are a hard core Brextremist, it’s everything but “only a question”.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:18 pm

I think the EU has been an unmitigated tragedy for Italy, Greece and Spain… they have tolerated the pain for far too long, imo…
 
Arion640
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:40 pm

marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
I thought Brexit was that?

Or is this the next hope as it didn't then?


Oh dear. It was only a question.


You asking “only a question”? Considering you are a hard core Brextremist, it’s everything but “only a question”.


Oh dear. More insults.

Perhaps try answering my question?
 
Arion640
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:41 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I think the EU has been an unmitigated tragedy for Italy, Greece and Spain… they have tolerated the pain for far too long, imo…


Its the euro that has been an unmitigated tragedy rather than the EU itself I’d say, personally.

I was having the same conversation with a friend recently and the EU is a nice idea, but like all things they can be taken too far.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:18 am

LCDFlight wrote:
I think the EU has been an unmitigated tragedy for Italy, Greece and Spain… they have tolerated the pain for far too long, imo…


I wonder if you'd bother to substantiate that opinion, such as explaining why you believe these nations would be better off having remained outside of Europe.
Or can we just assume that this is a purely emotional statement?
 
marcelh
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:56 am

Arion640 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Oh dear. It was only a question.


You asking “only a question”? Considering you are a hard core Brextremist, it’s everything but “only a question”.


Oh dear. More insults.

Perhaps try answering my question?


No insult, just stating some facts. And answering your question: no, it won’t “winding up” the EU. All crises the EU had to deal with has made it stronger in the end.
 
marcelh
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:04 am

LCDFlight wrote:
I think the EU has been an unmitigated tragedy for Italy, Greece and Spain… they have tolerated the pain for far too long, imo…


A tragedy caused by their incompetent governments. But hey, blaming the EU is always easier if you don’t know where you’re talking about. A lot of people from outside the EU have an opinion about it, unfortunately only a handful actually know where they are talking about…
 
mxaxai
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:26 am

marcelh wrote:
But hey, blaming the EU is always easier if you don’t know where you’re talking about.

Just hot off the press today, after yesterday's mobilization speech:
Hungary PM Orban says EU's Russia sanctions should be scrapped

Without sanctions, Europe could regain strength and could avoid a looming recession, the report quoted Orban as saying, reiterating his earlier stance that the sanctions were hurting Europe more than Russia.

On his Facebook page, Orban posted from the party meeting:
"The Brussels sanctions have pushed Europe into an energy crisis."

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-22/

If Orban wants to kiss Putin's ass, go ahead, but don't alienate your allies on the way to Moscow...
 
marcelh
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:30 am

mxaxai wrote:
marcelh wrote:
But hey, blaming the EU is always easier if you don’t know where you’re talking about.

Just hot off the press today, after yesterday's mobilization speech:
Hungary PM Orban says EU's Russia sanctions should be scrapped

Without sanctions, Europe could regain strength and could avoid a looming recession, the report quoted Orban as saying, reiterating his earlier stance that the sanctions were hurting Europe more than Russia.

On his Facebook page, Orban posted from the party meeting:
"The Brussels sanctions have pushed Europe into an energy crisis."

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-22/

If Orban wants to kiss Putin's ass, go ahead, but don't alienate your allies on the way to Moscow...


It will be interesting to see how the Polish government is going to react on those statements from Orban.
 
GDB
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:21 am

marcelh wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I think the EU has been an unmitigated tragedy for Italy, Greece and Spain… they have tolerated the pain for far too long, imo…


A tragedy caused by their incompetent governments. But hey, blaming the EU is always easier if you don’t know where you’re talking about. A lot of people from outside the EU have an opinion about it, unfortunately only a handful actually know where they are talking about…


Something so obviously apparent in the UK.
Brexit supporters quieter these days, not the clowns in government but those who, in my experience, voted for it (none had the slightest clue about the EU), now get rather sullen if it is mentioned. Or have moaned about the effects of it, especially when traveling abroad.
It’s not so different from how investigating fraud and scammers is difficult as there is a natural tendency not to want to admit when people have been duped.

People foolish enough to actually believe Facist friendly Farage and/or the notoriously Xenophobic, stupid and vindictive UK Tory tabloids fell for that idiotic line of ‘when the UK leaves, the EU will collapse’, more recently one of Truss’s minions saying Ireland should leave too.
Yes they are that stupid, that ignorant of their, the EU and our history.
And that’s why I don’t take Brexit supporters seriously.

A cursory look at Greece in various monetary unions, usually locally such as within Aegean and/or Mediterranean nations from the 19th and 20th centuries always ends the same, they go bankrupt and usually leave or got thrown out of these organizations.
They never should have been near the Single Currency, that was an EU mistake but a Greek choice.
 
Redd
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:04 pm

marcelh wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
marcelh wrote:
But hey, blaming the EU is always easier if you don’t know where you’re talking about.

Just hot off the press today, after yesterday's mobilization speech:
Hungary PM Orban says EU's Russia sanctions should be scrapped

Without sanctions, Europe could regain strength and could avoid a looming recession, the report quoted Orban as saying, reiterating his earlier stance that the sanctions were hurting Europe more than Russia.

On his Facebook page, Orban posted from the party meeting:
"The Brussels sanctions have pushed Europe into an energy crisis."

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-22/

If Orban wants to kiss Putin's ass, go ahead, but don't alienate your allies on the way to Moscow...


It will be interesting to see how the Polish government is going to react on those statements from Orban.


Poland will stay silent because they, and everyone else knows, Orban is right. Sanctions have so far hurt us more than they have Russia, it's not exactly a secret. The west doesn't even know how to do sanctions anymore. Someone should point out, that sanctions aren't meant to hurt your own people. And people are hurting, big time.

Poland, which still has quite a low-income population in places, heat their homes with coal. Coal went from 1000pln per ton last year, to 5000pln per ton, and it takes 3 tons to heat the average household for the winter. So, the average low-income Polish citizen will have to fork out 15000pln instead of the 3000pln they did last year. And then the doubling or tripling of almost everything else.

Food has doubled or more, petrol has doubled, social security payments for the self-employed have doubled, traffic infractions have tripled (mostly to help pay for the extra costs of Ukrainian refugee benefits), natural gas to heat homes has more than doubled, and inflation is up to 16%, all since sanctions. Are those effective sanctions at work? Or incompetent governments failing to apply sanctions properly?
 
GDB
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:48 pm

Redd wrote:
marcelh wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Just hot off the press today, after yesterday's mobilization speech:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-22/

If Orban wants to kiss Putin's ass, go ahead, but don't alienate your allies on the way to Moscow...


It will be interesting to see how the Polish government is going to react on those statements from Orban.


Poland will stay silent because they, and everyone else knows, Orban is right. Sanctions have so far hurt us more than they have Russia, it's not exactly a secret. The west doesn't even know how to do sanctions anymore. Someone should point out, that sanctions aren't meant to hurt your own people. And people are hurting, big time.

Poland, which still has quite a low-income population in places, heat their homes with coal. Coal went from 1000pln per ton last year, to 5000pln per ton, and it takes 3 tons to heat the average household for the winter. So, the average low-income Polish citizen will have to fork out 15000pln instead of the 3000pln they did last year. And then the doubling or tripling of almost everything else.

Food has doubled or more, petrol has doubled, social security payments for the self-employed have doubled, traffic infractions have tripled (mostly to help pay for the extra costs of Ukrainian refugee benefits), natural gas to heat homes has more than doubled, and inflation is up to 16%, all since sanctions. Are those effective sanctions at work? Or incompetent governments failing to apply sanctions properly?


Orban was long a Putin fanboy. (like GOP/MAGA, hence his welcome to CPAC, who presumably also like his anti Jewish conspiracy stuff, his racism and undermining of democracy, all MAGA/21st Century BUND principles).
Poland has, as any slight glance of history shows, had a very different relationship with Russia, Putin in particular, despite some of the traits of Orban in domestic policy, both also enjoy a staple diet of the hand that feeds it, the EU.
Whose tolerance, now more acute since Trump's best bud invaded Ukraine, is being sorely tested, in particular with Orban, who like Putin, MAGA/GOP, likes to try and fix elections.
But he isn't in the front line, unlike Poland, he's an irritating worm on the side, right about nothing.

That's the thing about the Ukraine war, it has brought into sharp relief who stands where and for what.
The absence of the defenders/apologists of MAGA/Trump on those threads is certainly instructive.
 
Redd
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Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:25 pm

GDB wrote:
Redd wrote:
marcelh wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the Polish government is going to react on those statements from Orban.


Poland will stay silent because they, and everyone else knows, Orban is right. Sanctions have so far hurt us more than they have Russia, it's not exactly a secret. The west doesn't even know how to do sanctions anymore. Someone should point out, that sanctions aren't meant to hurt your own people. And people are hurting, big time.

Poland, which still has quite a low-income population in places, heat their homes with coal. Coal went from 1000pln per ton last year, to 5000pln per ton, and it takes 3 tons to heat the average household for the winter. So, the average low-income Polish citizen will have to fork out 15000pln instead of the 3000pln they did last year. And then the doubling or tripling of almost everything else.

Food has doubled or more, petrol has doubled, social security payments for the self-employed have doubled, traffic infractions have tripled (mostly to help pay for the extra costs of Ukrainian refugee benefits), natural gas to heat homes has more than doubled, and inflation is up to 16%, all since sanctions. Are those effective sanctions at work? Or incompetent governments failing to apply sanctions properly?


Orban was long a Putin fanboy. (like GOP/MAGA, hence his welcome to CPAC, who presumably also like his anti Jewish conspiracy stuff, his racism and undermining of democracy, all MAGA/21st Century BUND principles).
Poland has, as any slight glance of history shows, had a very different relationship with Russia, Putin in particular, despite some of the traits of Orban in domestic policy, both also enjoy a staple diet of the hand that feeds it, the EU.
Whose tolerance, now more acute since Trump's best bud invaded Ukraine, is being sorely tested, in particular with Orban, who like Putin, MAGA/GOP, likes to try and fix elections.
But he isn't in the front line, unlike Poland, he's an irritating worm on the side, right about nothing.

That's the thing about the Ukraine war, it has brought into sharp relief who stands where and for what.
The absence of the defenders/apologists of MAGA/Trump on those threads is certainly instructive.


I don't see how partisan politics play into the world of hurt people are in right now? This whole situation has happened under the leadership of Biden Democrats and an incompetent EU leadership that refused to listen to the MAGA devil when he was telling us that we need to become energy independent of Russia. Say what you will about the toupe, but he was right.

I say we drop the partisan politics and concentrate on what governments should be doing to make people's lives better because things are going to get much, much worse before they get better for most people in the west right now.

And the reason countries like Poland are paid by the EU, is because the EU doesn't allow many industries to grow to protect those same industries in Western Europe. Take the Gdańsk shipyards for example, we're not allowed to call it shipyard or finish building complete ships, to protect Dutch shipbuilding. Not exactly free market, and that's not the only industry that works that way. So yes, compensation is due for not being able to compete on a level playing field. Best-case scenario would be for Poland to be able to compete, especially with our lower labor costs, we'd be happy to forgo the EU payments. It would end up a net positive for Poland.
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:09 pm

Redd wrote:
GDB wrote:
Redd wrote:

Poland will stay silent because they, and everyone else knows, Orban is right. Sanctions have so far hurt us more than they have Russia, it's not exactly a secret. The west doesn't even know how to do sanctions anymore. Someone should point out, that sanctions aren't meant to hurt your own people. And people are hurting, big time.

Poland, which still has quite a low-income population in places, heat their homes with coal. Coal went from 1000pln per ton last year, to 5000pln per ton, and it takes 3 tons to heat the average household for the winter. So, the average low-income Polish citizen will have to fork out 15000pln instead of the 3000pln they did last year. And then the doubling or tripling of almost everything else.

Food has doubled or more, petrol has doubled, social security payments for the self-employed have doubled, traffic infractions have tripled (mostly to help pay for the extra costs of Ukrainian refugee benefits), natural gas to heat homes has more than doubled, and inflation is up to 16%, all since sanctions. Are those effective sanctions at work? Or incompetent governments failing to apply sanctions properly?


Orban was long a Putin fanboy. (like GOP/MAGA, hence his welcome to CPAC, who presumably also like his anti Jewish conspiracy stuff, his racism and undermining of democracy, all MAGA/21st Century BUND principles).
Poland has, as any slight glance of history shows, had a very different relationship with Russia, Putin in particular, despite some of the traits of Orban in domestic policy, both also enjoy a staple diet of the hand that feeds it, the EU.
Whose tolerance, now more acute since Trump's best bud invaded Ukraine, is being sorely tested, in particular with Orban, who like Putin, MAGA/GOP, likes to try and fix elections.
But he isn't in the front line, unlike Poland, he's an irritating worm on the side, right about nothing.

That's the thing about the Ukraine war, it has brought into sharp relief who stands where and for what.
The absence of the defenders/apologists of MAGA/Trump on those threads is certainly instructive.


I don't see how partisan politics play into the world of hurt people are in right now? This whole situation has happened under the leadership of Biden Democrats and an incompetent EU leadership that refused to listen to the MAGA devil when he was telling us that we need to become energy independent of Russia. Say what you will about the toupe, but he was right.

I say we drop the partisan politics and concentrate on what governments should be doing to make people's lives better because things are going to get much, much worse before they get better for most people in the west right now.

And the reason countries like Poland are paid by the EU, is because the EU doesn't allow many industries to grow to protect those same industries in Western Europe. Take the Gdańsk shipyards for example, we're not allowed to call it shipyard or finish building complete ships, to protect Dutch shipbuilding. Not exactly free market, and that's not the only industry that works that way. So yes, compensation is due for not being able to compete on a level playing field. Best-case scenario would be for Poland to be able to compete, especially with our lower labor costs, we'd be happy to forgo the EU payments. It would end up a net positive for Poland.

What Dutch shipbuilding?? In 2020 the revenue for new seagoing vessels was less than 900million Euro built in The Netherlands - less than 0.1% of the GDP. Really something worth protecting….
The biggest player is Damen Shipyards, who has a lot of sites worldwide and ironically one of the most important is in Poland…

But you want a Polexit, that’s OK with me. Please go.
You would become another Great-Britain, but only without a decent economy and no free access to the EU market. That is gonna be fun!
 
GDB
Posts: 16208
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:09 pm

Redd wrote:
GDB wrote:
Redd wrote:

Poland will stay silent because they, and everyone else knows, Orban is right. Sanctions have so far hurt us more than they have Russia, it's not exactly a secret. The west doesn't even know how to do sanctions anymore. Someone should point out, that sanctions aren't meant to hurt your own people. And people are hurting, big time.

Poland, which still has quite a low-income population in places, heat their homes with coal. Coal went from 1000pln per ton last year, to 5000pln per ton, and it takes 3 tons to heat the average household for the winter. So, the average low-income Polish citizen will have to fork out 15000pln instead of the 3000pln they did last year. And then the doubling or tripling of almost everything else.

Food has doubled or more, petrol has doubled, social security payments for the self-employed have doubled, traffic infractions have tripled (mostly to help pay for the extra costs of Ukrainian refugee benefits), natural gas to heat homes has more than doubled, and inflation is up to 16%, all since sanctions. Are those effective sanctions at work? Or incompetent governments failing to apply sanctions properly?


Orban was long a Putin fanboy. (like GOP/MAGA, hence his welcome to CPAC, who presumably also like his anti Jewish conspiracy stuff, his racism and undermining of democracy, all MAGA/21st Century BUND principles).
Poland has, as any slight glance of history shows, had a very different relationship with Russia, Putin in particular, despite some of the traits of Orban in domestic policy, both also enjoy a staple diet of the hand that feeds it, the EU.
Whose tolerance, now more acute since Trump's best bud invaded Ukraine, is being sorely tested, in particular with Orban, who like Putin, MAGA/GOP, likes to try and fix elections.
But he isn't in the front line, unlike Poland, he's an irritating worm on the side, right about nothing.

That's the thing about the Ukraine war, it has brought into sharp relief who stands where and for what.
The absence of the defenders/apologists of MAGA/Trump on those threads is certainly instructive.


I don't see how partisan politics play into the world of hurt people are in right now? This whole situation has happened under the leadership of Biden Democrats and an incompetent EU leadership that refused to listen to the MAGA devil when he was telling us that we need to become energy independent of Russia. Say what you will about the toupe, but he was right.

I say we drop the partisan politics and concentrate on what governments should be doing to make people's lives better because things are going to get much, much worse before they get better for most people in the west right now.

And the reason countries like Poland are paid by the EU, is because the EU doesn't allow many industries to grow to protect those same industries in Western Europe. Take the Gdańsk shipyards for example, we're not allowed to call it shipyard or finish building complete ships, to protect Dutch shipbuilding. Not exactly free market, and that's not the only industry that works that way. So yes, compensation is due for not being able to compete on a level playing field. Best-case scenario would be for Poland to be able to compete, especially with our lower labor costs, we'd be happy to forgo the EU payments. It would end up a net positive for Poland.


Ah yes, what did he say, Trump, on the day of the invasion? 'Genius'.
It has been an issue, with division within the EU, energy dependence.
German was wrong to decommission nuclear plants, however Putin was banking on a total fracture within the organization and NATO too (two bodies Trump was hostile about, don't try and deny it, I will just dump a bunch of footage of his own words here), it did predate him and also do not, please, try to insult our intelligence and say that had he still been in place, Ukraine would have got any of the aid the US has provided, even the training mission from several NATO nations, extant until the beginning of the year, predated him. His one visit there was hostile and about, as ever, his own concerns, namely an attempt to dig up dirt.

Orban, back to topic, is playing a dangerous game, as a NATO and EU member, that comes with certain rules and commitments, which he has been breaking all the time, now when it is purely domestic, that is one thing, more an EU issue but not really something they would go all in on, with NATO however it's more serious.
The EU has, as I said, despite what Putin expected, scrambled to adapt and while Winter won't be easy, already it won't be the disaster he expected, planned for.
That's what a functioning multi national organisation does, as with NATO for defence, the EU working to reduce the use of Russian fossil fuels, even Germany on it's own could not do that.
Something our idiots here in the UK could not grasp, too late now.

Orban can chose to try and play both sides, the latest escalations by Putin after his crap army was humiliated again recently, make that more problematic for him.
Since even China is getting edgy about their relationship to Putin.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 3373
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:02 pm

Redd wrote:
Poland, which still has quite a low-income population in places, heat their homes with coal. Coal went from 1000pln per ton last year, to 5000pln per ton, and it takes 3 tons to heat the average household for the winter. So, the average low-income Polish citizen will have to fork out 15000pln instead of the 3000pln they did last year. And then the doubling or tripling of almost everything else.

I would consider this more of a failure on Poland's side to properly plan for and regulate energy sources. Well, nearly all of Europe to be honest.
Gas is exempt from EU sanctions; the current lack of gas deliveries is a unilateral decision by Putin.

Pre-war, states loved to buy cheap Russian gas without worrying about the political implications. Some countries, like Poland and Germany, also had a coal industry they needed to keep afloat with subsidies. Others, like France and Belgium, thought that their ancient nuclear powerplants would run forever. And of course the UK, who believed that being an island outside the EU would protect them from worldwide market developments. Hungary is a special case in that they have a Russian oil pipeline which generates handsome profits for nearly no effort.

Well, at least the polish coal mines don't need subsidies this year. Neither do US oil refineries and Qatari LNG terminals. But more than anything, this year's energy cost explosion should be a reminder to diversify energy sources - especially wind and solar, which don't rely on imports, and new nuclear where it makes sense (although the developments in Ukraine also highlight the risks of that technology). Sooner or later, reliance on a single unstable foreign leader is going to bite you in the ass.
 
Redd
Posts: 1552
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:44 am

marcelh wrote:
But you want a Polexit, that’s OK with me. Please go.


Who said anything about a Polexit? Is it reading or comprehension that's your issue?
Last edited by Redd on Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Redd
Posts: 1552
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:49 am

mxaxai wrote:
Redd wrote:
. Others, like France and Belgium, thought that their ancient nuclear powerplants would run forever. .


I'd say that France and Belgium are pretty happy right now with their nuclear, and Germany was proven wrong. Properly managed and with new nuclear technology, nuclear is the ultimate green energy source.

France is building 14 new nuclear power plants by 2050. Germany is still going to be burning coal. I wish Poland had a more competent government and pushed us in that direction.
 
Redd
Posts: 1552
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:54 am

GDB wrote:
Redd wrote:
GDB wrote:

Orban was long a Putin fanboy. (like GOP/MAGA, hence his welcome to CPAC, who presumably also like his anti Jewish conspiracy stuff, his racism and undermining of democracy, all MAGA/21st Century BUND principles).
Poland has, as any slight glance of history shows, had a very different relationship with Russia, Putin in particular, despite some of the traits of Orban in domestic policy, both also enjoy a staple diet of the hand that feeds it, the EU.
Whose tolerance, now more acute since Trump's best bud invaded Ukraine, is being sorely tested, in particular with Orban, who like Putin, MAGA/GOP, likes to try and fix elections.
But he isn't in the front line, unlike Poland, he's an irritating worm on the side, right about nothing.

That's the thing about the Ukraine war, it has brought into sharp relief who stands where and for what.
The absence of the defenders/apologists of MAGA/Trump on those threads is certainly instructive.


I don't see how partisan politics play into the world of hurt people are in right now? This whole situation has happened under the leadership of Biden Democrats and an incompetent EU leadership that refused to listen to the MAGA devil when he was telling us that we need to become energy independent of Russia. Say what you will about the toupe, but he was right.

I say we drop the partisan politics and concentrate on what governments should be doing to make people's lives better because things are going to get much, much worse before they get better for most people in the west right now.

And the reason countries like Poland are paid by the EU, is because the EU doesn't allow many industries to grow to protect those same industries in Western Europe. Take the Gdańsk shipyards for example, we're not allowed to call it shipyard or finish building complete ships, to protect Dutch shipbuilding. Not exactly free market, and that's not the only industry that works that way. So yes, compensation is due for not being able to compete on a level playing field. Best-case scenario would be for Poland to be able to compete, especially with our lower labor costs, we'd be happy to forgo the EU payments. It would end up a net positive for Poland.


Ah yes, what did he say, Trump, on the day of the invasion? 'Genius'.
It has been an issue, with division within the EU, energy dependence.
German was wrong to decommission nuclear plants, however Putin was banking on a total fracture within the organization and NATO too (two bodies Trump was hostile about, don't try and deny it, I will just dump a bunch of footage of his own words here), it did predate him and also do not, please, try to insult our intelligence and say that had he still been in place, Ukraine would have got any of the aid the US has provided, even the training mission from several NATO nations, extant until the beginning of the year, predated him. His one visit there was hostile and about, as ever, his own concerns, namely an attempt to dig up dirt.

Orban, back to topic, is playing a dangerous game, as a NATO and EU member, that comes with certain rules and commitments, which he has been breaking all the time, now when it is purely domestic, that is one thing, more an EU issue but not really something they would go all in on, with NATO however it's more serious.
The EU has, as I said, despite what Putin expected, scrambled to adapt and while Winter won't be easy, already it won't be the disaster he expected, planned for.
That's what a functioning multi national organisation does, as with NATO for defence, the EU working to reduce the use of Russian fossil fuels, even Germany on it's own could not do that.
Something our idiots here in the UK could not grasp, too late now.

Orban can chose to try and play both sides, the latest escalations by Putin after his crap army was humiliated again recently, make that more problematic for him.
Since even China is getting edgy about their relationship to Putin.



If the end result of Orban playing both sides is no energy crisis and out of control prices for his citizens, is it really such a bad thing? I know Orban is easy to hate, but as a citizen of Hungary, I'd be pretty happy right now with energy and petrol prices.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:09 am

Redd wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Redd wrote:
. Others, like France and Belgium, thought that their ancient nuclear powerplants would run forever. .


I'd say that France and Belgium are pretty happy right now with their nuclear, and Germany was proven wrong. Properly managed and with new nuclear technology, nuclear is the ultimate green energy source.

France is building 14 new nuclear power plants by 2050. Germany is still going to be burning coal. I wish Poland had a more competent government and pushed us in that direction.


And the problem over summer in France was they had a few nuclear plants offline for maintenance and some had issues due to the lower river levels.
Germany was actually exporting electricity to France over the summer - the other way around than usual.

Like you say - properly managed, so cooling of the plants need to take into account all these potential risks.
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:23 am

Redd wrote:
marcelh wrote:
But you want a Polexit, that’s OK with me. Please go.


Who said anything about a Polexit? Is it reading or comprehension that's your issue?


You were stating:
And the reason countries like Poland are paid by the EU, is because the EU doesn't allow many industries to grow to protect those same industries in Western Europe. Take the Gdańsk shipyards for example, we're not allowed to call it shipyard or finish building complete ships, to protect Dutch shipbuilding. Not exactly free market, and that's not the only industry that works that way. So yes, compensation is due for not being able to compete on a level playing field. Best-case scenario would be for Poland to be able to compete, especially with our lower labor costs, we'd be happy to forgo the EU payments. It would end up a net positive for Poland.


It doesn't really sound like someone who wants to be part of the EU because of the mutual benefit the countries within the EU having. It's more like "Poland first", just like the Brits did with Brexit. You are talking about "competing", so you fail to see/understand/comprehend the WHY about the EU single market. The EU is more than just a cash machine and a place where you can make money with cheap labor. You are part of it or you aren't and your previous statements made clear you aren't. Sorry, you can't have the cake and eat it. Instead of blaming the EU, you should be worried about the extremist nationalism and democratic freedoms which are at stake in Poland.
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:32 am

Redd wrote:
GDB wrote:
Redd wrote:

I don't see how partisan politics play into the world of hurt people are in right now? This whole situation has happened under the leadership of Biden Democrats and an incompetent EU leadership that refused to listen to the MAGA devil when he was telling us that we need to become energy independent of Russia. Say what you will about the toupe, but he was right.

I say we drop the partisan politics and concentrate on what governments should be doing to make people's lives better because things are going to get much, much worse before they get better for most people in the west right now.

And the reason countries like Poland are paid by the EU, is because the EU doesn't allow many industries to grow to protect those same industries in Western Europe. Take the Gdańsk shipyards for example, we're not allowed to call it shipyard or finish building complete ships, to protect Dutch shipbuilding. Not exactly free market, and that's not the only industry that works that way. So yes, compensation is due for not being able to compete on a level playing field. Best-case scenario would be for Poland to be able to compete, especially with our lower labor costs, we'd be happy to forgo the EU payments. It would end up a net positive for Poland.


Ah yes, what did he say, Trump, on the day of the invasion? 'Genius'.
It has been an issue, with division within the EU, energy dependence.
German was wrong to decommission nuclear plants, however Putin was banking on a total fracture within the organization and NATO too (two bodies Trump was hostile about, don't try and deny it, I will just dump a bunch of footage of his own words here), it did predate him and also do not, please, try to insult our intelligence and say that had he still been in place, Ukraine would have got any of the aid the US has provided, even the training mission from several NATO nations, extant until the beginning of the year, predated him. His one visit there was hostile and about, as ever, his own concerns, namely an attempt to dig up dirt.

Orban, back to topic, is playing a dangerous game, as a NATO and EU member, that comes with certain rules and commitments, which he has been breaking all the time, now when it is purely domestic, that is one thing, more an EU issue but not really something they would go all in on, with NATO however it's more serious.
The EU has, as I said, despite what Putin expected, scrambled to adapt and while Winter won't be easy, already it won't be the disaster he expected, planned for.
That's what a functioning multi national organisation does, as with NATO for defence, the EU working to reduce the use of Russian fossil fuels, even Germany on it's own could not do that.
Something our idiots here in the UK could not grasp, too late now.

Orban can chose to try and play both sides, the latest escalations by Putin after his crap army was humiliated again recently, make that more problematic for him.
Since even China is getting edgy about their relationship to Putin.



If the end result of Orban playing both sides is no energy crisis and out of control prices for his citizens, is it really such a bad thing? I know Orban is easy to hate, but as a citizen of Hungary, I'd be pretty happy right now with energy and petrol prices.


I'd rather live in a country where my government is spending billions to reduce the energy costs - for all households - and still be able to support the Ukraine, mitigate the problems due to the sanctions and able to keep the debt in check . O, we also have a decent social security system everyone can use - even foreigners who are working (or have worked) here and paid taxes. Also those from Poland and other countries.

And Orban/Hungary will be considered as the one who choose the "wrong" side. :wave:
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14433
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:33 am

Redd wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
marcelh wrote:
So Poland opposes Hungarian position towards Russia, but are BFF when opposing the EU.

Guess who has benefited Poland since 2004?
https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274



Aesma wrote:
Orban plays the strongman, but he's not strong enough to put his money where his mouth is and leave the EU by himself.


In the face of potentially losing EU funding, Hungary seeks to rapidly deploy anti-graft and anti-corruption bills to assuage Brussels:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 022-09-19/

It's interesting how these nations oppose the European Union and its values but do seem to very much like the funding they receive from it, isn't it?


Poland is the EU'S largest supplier of cheap skilled labour. Countries like Norway, Sweden, Germany and Holland would cease to function if all the Poles returned home.


Norway could replace the Poles with more Swedes, the second largest immigrant group in the country.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14433
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:42 am

readytotaxi wrote:
27 EU members, it was never designed for that, what a mess.


IMO the problem with the EU is too many countries with too few being net contributors to it. The EU should have stayed as a French German UK run entity with the addition of other sensibly run countries like Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Ireland, Finland, Spain, Portugal. If they wanted to admit former Iron Curtain countries and financial basket cases like Greece and Italy they should have done so as junior non voting members who were given X number of years to bring themselves up to a prescribed standard before they were granted full membership. Free movement of people should not have happened until full membership was granted.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5649
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:51 pm

The disaster for Greece and Italy, Spain too was going into the Euro zone. Unless fiscal and monetary are both united it can be a disaster, especially to weaker economies. Milton Friedman and Paul Krugman, kind of from opposite ends of the economic spectrum were both agreed on this. They, like the UK should have kept their own currency. If anyone wants the economic case for this I will dredge through my ancient memory and provide links.
 
tomcat
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:26 pm

Redd wrote:
I don't see how partisan politics play into the world of hurt people are in right now? This whole situation has happened under the leadership of Biden Democrats and an incompetent EU leadership that refused to listen to the MAGA devil when he was telling us that we need to become energy independent of Russia. Say what you will about the toupe, but he was right.


Maybe it's worth adding a few points:
- the Obama administration was also opposed to the ever increasing energy dependence of the EU from Russia.
- the EU Commission as well as several EU member states were opposed to the (German lead) Nord Stream 2 project.
- the Biden administration was obviously opposed to the Nord Stream 2 project as well.
- the EU Commission has limited power to define and implement an energy policy in the EU. The member states are still entitled to run their own energy policy. I believe they never agreed to transfer this competence to the EU level because the energy policy is highly related to the foreign policy (again, mainly in the hands of the member states). The energy policy is also linked to some dogmas (like against nuclear power or in favor of it) which differ greatly from member state to member state.

Redd wrote:
And the reason countries like Poland are paid by the EU, is because the EU doesn't allow many industries to grow to protect those same industries in Western Europe. Take the Gdańsk shipyards for example, we're not allowed to call it shipyard or finish building complete ships, to protect Dutch shipbuilding. Not exactly free market, and that's not the only industry that works that way. So yes, compensation is due for not being able to compete on a level playing field. Best-case scenario would be for Poland to be able to compete, especially with our lower labor costs, we'd be happy to forgo the EU payments. It would end up a net positive for Poland.


This is mostly wrong. The EU subsidies are first and foremost supporting the primary sector, ie agriculture. Originally, the aim of this EU policy was to increase the productivity of our agriculture to avoid the near-famine situations we experienced after WWII. Lately this policy has evolved slightly but the subsidies received by the member states are still commensurate to the importance of their agricultural sector. When the eastern European countries joined EU, their agriculture had a low productivity and still made up a relatively large share of their economies (more than 5% of Polish GDP in 1995). So there is no question that the Polish agricultural sector was a large recipient of EU subsidies and this has obviously nothing to do with the industry.

There are actually similar EU policies towards the industry. Industries can receive subsidies when going through deep restructuring. This is again a policy designed to get rid of unproductive organisations and boost the overall productivity of the EU industry. Many people have the impression that this policy is designed to protect the industry of western Europe and in particular the German one but this is not true. Industries in western Europe have undergone the same kind of restructuring earlier on (and not always successfully) The truth is also that it's tough to compete against efficient and well established companies so it may be hard to gain market share against them. But if you look carefully, you will notice that a significant portion of the European industrial sector has been delocalized to eastern Europe. Think of the automotive assembly lines and their subcontractors for example. A lot of fournitures are now made in eastern Europe as well.

And one have to look beyond yesterday's economy. Estonia is for example punching way above its weight in the IT industry.

Finally, the average income per capita is growing much faster in eastern Europe than in western Europe. So I don't see how it's possible to argue that the EU policy is aiming at blocking the development of these economies.
 
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Tugger
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:50 pm

As an outsider I am curious, is it true as it is implied above, that member states can be forced to not develop industries? I am reading how Poland wants to develop ship building but cannot? And I have read some things regarding protectionist tendencies in agriculture.

Regarding the Euro and member states having their own currency, I think it is a very smart thing for a state to have its own currency as it allows actually monetary policy adjustments to address functional differences between the various member states. Allowing one states to have a devalued currency and thus attract investment.

Tugg
 
mxaxai
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Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
As an outsider I am curious, is it true as it is implied above, that member states can be forced to not develop industries? I am reading how Poland wants to develop ship building but cannot? And I have read some things regarding protectionist tendencies in agriculture.

Tugg

No, they can develop their industries however they want to; the only constraint is that they must adhere to antitrust laws. This tends to hit smaller states more than larger ones, since these smaller states often support small, internationally uncompetitive companies. If states continue providing subsidies to a specific company for too long, without any plan or expectation that the company becomes profitable again, they can be forced to cut subsidies or sell assets.

This is, for example, what led to the liquidation of the original Cyprus Airways, and what played a key role in the rebranding and restructuring of Alitalia / ITA.

It also seems to be what hit the mentioned shipyards. Gdansk used to have a large shipyard but they really struggled with profitability after 1990. It went through multiple bankruptcies, going from more than 20,000 employees to about 2,000 nowadays.
This is not entirely unique to Gdansk, though; many other European (and US) shipyards have been forced to downsize over the past few decades.

The global demand for new ships has doubled, but orders placed in Europe have declined last year by another twenty per cent, even compared to the extremely poor previous year. In 2021, 85 per cent of global orders went to China and Korea. Japan, while maintaining a relatively high domestic demand, barely contributes ten per cent to the global order intake today.

https://swzmaritime.nl/news/2022/07/08/ ... in-europe/

Many German shipyards, for example, are only kept alive by producing small numbers of warships, which cannot be built abroad for political reasons.

Tugger wrote:
Regarding the Euro and member states having their own currency, I think it is a very smart thing for a state to have its own currency as it allows actually monetary policy adjustments to address functional differences between the various member states. Allowing one states to have a devalued currency and thus attract investment.

Tugg

From a US perspective the Euro may seem odd but consider a situation where each US state had their own currency. Even tiny ones such as Maryland or Rhode Island. You'd have to exchange currency every time crossing the Hudson river.
It quickly becomes a major obstacle to trade and travel. Not only do you need to take into account moving exchange rates, but there are fees for each exchange as well.

Kiwirob wrote:
If they wanted to admit former Iron Curtain countries and financial basket cases like Greece and Italy

Italy was a founding member of the original EU predecessor, the ECSC, partially due to its economic importance, partially because it was one of the main powers involved in WW2.
Greece signed an association agreement with the EEC in 1962. The trade agreements already put in place at the time caused an economic boom in Greece. If it hadn't been for a non-democratic military government, which put the negotiations on hold and stopped most financial aid previously promised to Greece, their economy could've grown a lot faster in the 20 years it took to actually join the EEC.
 
Newark727
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Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:04 pm

mxaxai wrote:
From a US perspective the Euro may seem odd but consider a situation where each US state had their own currency. Even tiny ones such as Maryland or Rhode Island. You'd have to exchange currency every time crossing the Hudson river.
It quickly becomes a major obstacle to trade and travel. Not only do you need to take into account moving exchange rates, but there are fees for each exchange as well.


IIRC this situation might have sorta existed under the Articles of Confederation?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 12231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:27 pm

mxaxai wrote:
From a US perspective the Euro may seem odd but consider a situation where each US state had their own currency. Even tiny ones such as Maryland or Rhode Island. You'd have to exchange currency every time crossing the Hudson river.
It quickly becomes a major obstacle to trade and travel. Not only do you need to take into account moving exchange rates, but there are fees for each exchange as well.

Newark727 wrote:
IIRC this situation might have sorta existed under the Articles of Confederation?


I am not suggesting the Euro be abandoned or is a bad thing, just that each of the nations had their own currency, for centuries basically, and for those with economies that struggle, having ones own currency is a very good thing. It was the smartest thing the UK did when it joined and if Greece had reverted to the drachma, they could have done things very differently.

The Euro is great currency supported by a large block of nations robust with economies. It is one of the a strongest currencies now in the world. However I am wondering if some kind of "cooling off period" or transition process wouldn't be a very good thing for both the EU and nations that join. Say having the joining nation keep their own currency for ten years before transitioning the the Euro.

Regarding the USA, I am not asking this from that frame of reference as the USA has had some 200 years of integration and all states economies are now fully integrated.

Tugg
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU in conflict with Hungary.

Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:16 pm

Tugger wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
From a US perspective the Euro may seem odd but consider a situation where each US state had their own currency. Even tiny ones such as Maryland or Rhode Island. You'd have to exchange currency every time crossing the Hudson river.
It quickly becomes a major obstacle to trade and travel. Not only do you need to take into account moving exchange rates, but there are fees for each exchange as well.

Newark727 wrote:
IIRC this situation might have sorta existed under the Articles of Confederation?


I am not suggesting the Euro be abandoned or is a bad thing, just that each of the nations had their own currency, for centuries basically, and for those with economies that struggle, having ones own currency is a very good thing. It was the smartest thing the UK did when it joined and if Greece had reverted to the drachma, they could have done things very differently.

The Euro is great currency supported by a large block of nations robust with economies. It is one of the a strongest currencies now in the world. However I am wondering if some kind of "cooling off period" or transition process wouldn't be a very good thing for both the EU and nations that join. Say having the joining nation keep their own currency for ten years before transitioning the the Euro.

Regarding the USA, I am not asking this from that frame of reference as the USA has had some 200 years of integration and all states economies are now fully integrated.

Tugg


There are criteria to be met before an EU member may switch to the Euro.

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/convergence-criteria-joining_en

Unfortunately those criteria weren’t rock solid in 1999 and Italy/Greece slipped through it. We’ve already paid for Greece and sooner or later Italy will follow…

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