https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/1 ... gia-meloni

I've been reading that this Christo-fascist idiot is leading in the polls for the PM race, and it got me thinking (as a foreigner): why is Italy's politics much more similar to the US than its western EU counterparts?

At first I thought it was due to the fact that over 90% of the country is religious (more than the US), but other predominantly Catholic countries like Ireland and the Iberian nations don't seem to have this level of bigotry spewing from their leading candidates, and France ditched LePen recently.

What exactly makes Italy different in this regard from other western EU nations?

SEAorPWM wrote:

What exactly makes Italy different in this regard from other western EU nations?

I think Italy is very conservative and backwards with the exception of the urban areas. And don’t even get me started about the south, people don’t realize but the Italian culture is still pretty much very conservative in its values. Old school mentality and the Vatican influence still prevails in their daily life.

santi319 wrote:

SEAorPWM wrote:

What exactly makes Italy different in this regard from other western EU nations?

I think Italy is very conservative and backwards with the exception of the urban areas. And don’t even get me started about the south, people don’t realize but the Italian culture is still pretty much very conservative in its values. Old school mentality and the Vatican influence still prevails in their daily life.

Interesting. Reading some of this woman's quotes, it sounds like they could be right out of one of the US far-right/Trump Cultists' mouths.

Scary times for the Western World for sure...

Sweden has also moved to the right based of this Sundays election results, to be fair the Swedish right is still slightly to the left of the Democrats in the US.

Kiwirob wrote:

Sweden has also moved to the right based of this Sundays election results, to be fair the Swedish right is still slightly to the left of the Democrats in the US.

Agreed. There seems to be less of a focus on things like abortion and LGBT equality in Sweden compared to the Italian and US righties.

SEAorPWM wrote:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/19/who-is-italys-leadership-hopeful-giorgia-meloni

I've been reading that this Christo-fascist idiot is leading in the polls for the PM race, and it got me thinking (as a foreigner): why is Italy's politics much more similar to the US than its western EU counterparts?

At first I thought it was due to the fact that over 90% of the country is religious (more than the US), but other predominantly Catholic countries like Ireland and the Iberian nations don't seem to have this level of bigotry spewing from their leading candidates, and France ditched LePen recently.

What exactly makes Italy different in this regard from other western EU nations?

The Italian system is designed to be inherently inhibit the rise of another Mussolini. It's central power structure is also intentionally unstable due to long standing tensions between the various kingdoms that were united to make up the modern Italy in the late 19th Century and the Papal States.

... Same is happening across the world, be it Latin America, Africa, or South Asia and such. It is not helpful to try to claim this as an exceptional label or tendency of a few individual countries.

c933103 wrote:

... Same is happening across the world, be it Latin America, Africa, or South Asia and such. It is not helpful to try to claim this as an exceptional label or tendency of a few individual countries.

I'm not implying this is not a global phenomenon, but Italy has been historically (lets say since the 80s) behind its western EU peers when it comes to these matters.

For example, the treatment of and legal protections for LGBT Italians is more along the lines of Poland or Hungary, as opposed to France or Portugal.

SEAorPWM wrote:

c933103 wrote:

... Same is happening across the world, be it Latin America, Africa, or South Asia and such. It is not helpful to try to claim this as an exceptional label or tendency of a few individual countries.

I'm not implying this is not a global phenomenon, but Italy has been historically (lets say since the 80s) behind its western EU peers when it comes to these matters.

For example, the treatment of and legal protections for LGBT Italians is more along the lines of Poland or Hungary, as opposed to France or Portugal.

A more religious society.

The best description I have heard of post war Italian politics is that conspiracy theories are not generally true, unless they are in Italy.

SEAorPWM wrote:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/19/who-is-italys-leadership-hopeful-giorgia-meloni

I've been reading that this Christo-fascist idiot is leading in the polls for the PM race, and it got me thinking (as a foreigner): why is Italy's politics much more similar to the US than its western EU counterparts?

At first I thought it was due to the fact that over 90% of the country is religious (more than the US), but other predominantly Catholic countries like Ireland and the Iberian nations don't seem to have this level of bigotry spewing from their leading candidates, and France ditched LePen recently.

What exactly makes Italy different in this regard from other western EU nations?

Well if you have a problem with Moloni you better be glad one of her coalition colleagues (Salvini) doesn't get more votes- then you should be really worried.

This feels like a good time to share an all-time classic on the differences between Italy and the rest of Europe.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63029909

Looks like Meloni will win.

Aaron747 wrote:

Most educated people would prefer to live in 2022, not 1895.

1922 seems to be the voters' preference.

At the same time, I'm regularly surprised that a significant portion of Italians keeps voting for Berlusconi, an 85-year old convicted of perjury, corruption, tax fraud and sex with teenage prostitutes. Well, at least he got fewer votes than last time.

Let's hope that this government falls apart as easily as those before it. At least they didn't get the required two-thirds majority to do major constitutional changes.

mxaxai wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Most educated people would prefer to live in 2022, not 1895.

1922 seems to be the voters' preference.

At the same time, I'm regularly surprised that a significant portion of Italians keeps voting for Berlusconi, an 85-year old convicted of perjury, corruption, tax fraud and sex with teenage prostitutes. Well, at least he got fewer votes than last time.

Let's hope that this government falls apart as easily as those before it. At least they didn't get the required two-thirds majority to do major constitutional changes.

I think brown will suit her very well…..

So proud of Italy’s citizens and Meloni. Embrace your culture, your family, your religion, your sovereignty. Do not allow anti-Italic/communist/globalist bigots to intimate or influence you. Stand by your Latin European principles and be strong. No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

DeltaMD95 wrote:

So proud of Italy’s citizens and Meloni. Embrace your culture, your family, your religion, your sovereignty. Do not allow anti-Italic/communist/globalist bigots to intimate or influence you. Stand by your Latin European principles and be strong. No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

I'm assuming the "embrace... your family" part means kicking your gay 14 year old son out of the house, and "sovereignty" means dropping replacing "EU" with "Putin" (yes, I am aware Meloni is publicly supporting Ukraine on this issue, but the two perverts she hangs around with used to sing praises about Vlad).

DeltaMD95 wrote:

So proud of Italy’s citizens and Meloni. Embrace your culture, your family, your religion, your sovereignty. Do not allow anti-Italic/communist/globalist bigots to intimate or influence you. Stand by your Latin European principles and be strong. No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

You are aware what "globalist" is a dog-whistle for, right?

My mother was born in Italy and I have family there. In Tuscany mainly, and a bit in the north. I wouldn't say people are conservative and listening to the Pope, not at all. People are largely areligious and don't care at all about culture wars. Besides, the current Pope is a socialist...

Salvini, Meloni etc. win votes thanks to their populist ideas on two fronts : immigration, and "elites are screwing you", nothing else.

The comparison with the US doesn't go very far, because Italy's issues are very different : no growth for more than 20 years, high youth unemployment, abysmal natality. Basically the whole country doesn't see a future for itself. Then add to that the south that is under the control of the mafia with no hope of economic improvement as a result.

These issues are very difficult to grapple with, and it looks like the new government will not even acknowledge they exist, so nothing will come out of it, and in 2-3 years top people will want another election.

Natality : the ratio of the number of births to the size of the population; birth rate.

DeltaMD95 wrote:

No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

They may not be in better off than they were 30 years ago (I don't know) but they are doing better than Italy ever was.

johns624 wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

They may not be in better off than they were 30 years ago (I don't know) but they are doing better than Italy ever was.

Ever was? Even if you want to believe that due to your innate prejudice, it is factually inaccurate given that Italy’s economy was #3 in the world in 1987-88 during the Il Sorprasso period. England and France (& Germany) all were beneath Italy’s ascendancy before the forming of the EU. Which together with Belgium, formed the basis of ensuring that bloated bureaucratic government/globalism/over-regulation and political pressure would favor Northwestern Europe’s prosperity at the expense of the rest of the continent. Twenty-five plus years later, Euroscepticism is alive and well for a reason.

Newark727 wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

So proud of Italy’s citizens and Meloni. Embrace your culture, your family, your religion, your sovereignty. Do not allow anti-Italic/communist/globalist bigots to intimate or influence you. Stand by your Latin European principles and be strong. No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

You are aware what "globalist" is a dog-whistle for, right?

When this is your rebuttal, you are exposing that you really do not have one. Save the cute hollow clichés for Twitter.

SEAorPWM wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

So proud of Italy’s citizens and Meloni. Embrace your culture, your family, your religion, your sovereignty. Do not allow anti-Italic/communist/globalist bigots to intimate or influence you. Stand by your Latin European principles and be strong. No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

I'm assuming the "embrace... your family" part means kicking your gay 14 year old son out of the house, and "sovereignty" means dropping replacing "EU" with "Putin" (yes, I am aware Meloni is publicly supporting Ukraine on this issue, but the two perverts she hangs around with used to sing praises about Vlad).

Resorting to “what-aboutism” does nothing to nullify the valid points that I made above. This turning point is bigger than identity politics. And the fact that identity politics is the de facto retort, says it all.
Let’s be real: If you were genuinely concerned about gay rights, there would be countless countries for you to exhibit your SJW energy towards before your crosshairs would land on Italy.

As for the “replacing EU with Putin” remark, this type of inflammatory fake news destroys any credibility outside your leftist censorship circle.

DeltaMD95 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

They may not be in better off than they were 30 years ago (I don't know) but they are doing better than Italy ever was.

Ever was? Even if you want to believe that due to your innate prejudice, it is factually inaccurate given that Italy’s economy was #3 in the world in 1987-88 during the Il Sorprasso period. England and France (& Germany) all were beneath Italy’s ascendancy before the forming of the EU. Which together with Belgium, formed the basis of ensuring that bloated bureaucratic government/globalism/over-regulation and political pressure would favor Northwestern Europe’s prosperity at the expense of the rest of the continent. Twenty-five plus years later, Euroscepticism is alive and well for a reason.

There's more to a country than just GDP. Italy can't keep a government long, the national airline was finally put out of its misery after decades of barely hanging on, the mafia runs things in many areas, etc, etc. Have you already forgotten the PIIG crisis?

johns624 wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

They may not be in better off than they were 30 years ago (I don't know) but they are doing better than Italy ever was.

Ever was? Even if you want to believe that due to your innate prejudice, it is factually inaccurate given that Italy’s economy was #3 in the world in 1987-88 during the Il Sorprasso period. England and France (& Germany) all were beneath Italy’s ascendancy before the forming of the EU. Which together with Belgium, formed the basis of ensuring that bloated bureaucratic government/globalism/over-regulation and political pressure would favor Northwestern Europe’s prosperity at the expense of the rest of the continent. Twenty-five plus years later, Euroscepticism is alive and well for a reason.

There's more to a country than just GDP. Italy can't keep a government long, the national airline was finally put out of its misery after decades of barely hanging on, the mafia runs things in many areas, etc, etc. Have you already forgotten the PIIG crisis?

Indeed, the mafia needs to be expelled once and for all. Just as it had while the Left were in power and were largely ineffective in improving the problem. Aviation enthusiasm aside, Alitalia as an airline factored quite marginally in terms of the country’s prosperity. Hopefully ITA will do better. PIIGS is this result of allowing NW EU elites in Brussels to dictate your national direction. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different results. Your points contribute to why Meloni won. Change has met it’s time.

If you'd prefer me to be earnest, I can be. Here are the facts - every government that has inveighed against communists, "globalists," and progressives in the name of "putting their nation first" and preserving their "Latin european culture" goes to the anti-Semitism well eventually. Hungary has, Russia has, Trump did. If you think that the Italian far-right won't, you're dangerously naive - assuming that isn't your goal to begin with. No sarcasm.

From what I'm reading on wikipedia, "il sorpasso" was caused in part by overdriving the economy using debt (a bit like what Trump did and Biden continued). 35 years later that debt is one of the main issues of the Italian economy, as without it would be running a surplus.

Nothing to do with the EU, on the contrary the EU pushed countries to reduce their deficits and debts.

You might argue Italy should have devalued its currency or defaulted on its debt, and indeed it should probably have in the 1990's, its leader didn't think so, obviously.

The EU isn't controlling Italy, Italy is a sovereign country like every EU country. If its people and leaders think it would be better for Italy to leave the EU, they can do it, Brexit showed the way.

Meloni/Salvini/Berlusconi don't seem to have an actual economic plan, but one thing is clear, Italexit isn't in the cards.

Aesma wrote:

My mother was born in Italy and I have family there. In Tuscany mainly, and a bit in the north. I wouldn't say people are conservative and listening to the Pope, not at all. People are largely areligious and don't care at all about culture wars. Besides, the current Pope is a socialist...

Salvini, Meloni etc. win votes thanks to their populist ideas on two fronts : immigration, and "elites are screwing you", nothing else.

The comparison with the US doesn't go very far, because Italy's issues are very different : no growth for more than 20 years, high youth unemployment, abysmal natality. Basically the whole country doesn't see a future for itself. Then add to that the south that is under the control of the mafia with no hope of economic improvement as a result.

These issues are very difficult to grapple with, and it looks like the new government will not even acknowledge they exist, so nothing will come out of it, and in 2-3 years top people will want another election.

Meloni's party's talking points sound exactly like the Trump GOP's.

Maybe your family's circles don't care about the culture wars, but I would much rather be a gay person or (legal) immigrant in the US than Italy.

DeltaMD95 wrote:

SEAorPWM wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

So proud of Italy’s citizens and Meloni. Embrace your culture, your family, your religion, your sovereignty. Do not allow anti-Italic/communist/globalist bigots to intimate or influence you. Stand by your Latin European principles and be strong. No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

I'm assuming the "embrace... your family" part means kicking your gay 14 year old son out of the house, and "sovereignty" means dropping replacing "EU" with "Putin" (yes, I am aware Meloni is publicly supporting Ukraine on this issue, but the two perverts she hangs around with used to sing praises about Vlad).

Resorting to “what-aboutism” does nothing to nullify the valid points that I made above. This turning point is bigger than identity politics. And the fact that identity politics is the de facto retort, says it all.
Let’s be real: If you were genuinely concerned about gay rights, there would be countless countries for you to exhibit your SJW energy towards before your crosshairs would land on Italy.

As for the “replacing EU with Putin” remark, this type of inflammatory fake news destroys any credibility outside your leftist censorship circle.

I've been plenty vocal about the KSA and UAE on here, and quite frankly, I've never had the desire to visit or do business with either wealthy Gulf state. Same with Russia (which is a moot point anyway).

Italy on the other hand I've had a desire to visit, and my great-grandmother was from Marché, so it's a bit aggravating to see this culture wars crap start up there again.

Yes, and I have seen gay kids that age kicked out of the house. To relate it to the topic, this happens in the US and Italy, but not high-GDP Germany (outside Islamic-fundie families perhaps). I think many have already answered with the reason: religion.

Newark727 wrote:

If you'd prefer me to be earnest, I can be. Here are the facts - every government that has inveighed against communists, "globalists," and progressives in the name of "putting their nation first" and preserving their "Latin european culture" goes to the anti-Semitism well eventually. Hungary has, Russia has, Trump did. If you think that the Italian far-right won't, you're dangerously naive - assuming that isn't your goal to begin with. No sarcasm.

I don't know where you're getting the anti-semtism, but you might as well throw it in there for good measure with all of your other judgments of all other people who don't view the world exactly as you do. Inveighing against communism is critical as well. Every country that has any sort of personal freedom's today stood against communism.

Also, do you have a looking glass into the future to see what these 'far right' governments will do? Have you ever stopped to consider, for even a moment, why people are turning more towards the conservative side and voting for more conservative governments? Perhaps people are moving away from the left because the left is alienating people? Insulting anyone who doesn't agree with everything they have to dictate, calling them some sort of phobe or another if they don't.. It'll be a good place to start if you want more people voting liberal again.

It's not that the right is gaining ground, the left is losing it, and the right is the only voting alternative.

Redd wrote:

It's not that the right is gaining ground, the left is losing it, and the right is the only voting alternative.

We've already had a Europe ruled by right-wing nationalists and it didn't end well. No need to make the same mistake twice.

[photoid][/photoid]

Aesma wrote:

From what I'm reading on wikipedia, "il sorpasso" was caused in part by overdriving the economy using debt (a bit like what Trump did and Biden continued). 35 years later that debt is one of the main issues of the Italian economy, as without it would be running a surplus.

Nothing to do with the EU, on the contrary the EU pushed countries to reduce their deficits and debts.

You might argue Italy should have devalued its currency or defaulted on its debt, and indeed it should probably have in the 1990's, its leader didn't think so, obviously.

The EU isn't controlling Italy, Italy is a sovereign country like every EU country. If its people and leaders think it would be better for Italy to leave the EU, they can do it, Brexit showed the way.

Meloni/Salvini/Berlusconi don't seem to have an actual economic plan, but one thing is clear, Italexit isn't in the cards.

Italy is in the Euro Zone, has been since it’s founding, how would they devalue their currency?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

[photoid][/photoid]

Aesma wrote:

[...]
You might argue Italy should have devalued its currency or defaulted on its debt, and indeed it should probably have in the 1990's, its leader didn't think so, obviously.
[...]

Italy is in the Euro Zone, has been since it’s founding, how would they devalue their currency?

Defaulting would have been catastrophic, but devaluing is how Italy maintained competitiveness until they got into the Euro in 2001 IIRC (so devaluation was OK throughout the 90s). After that it tried through outsourcing, and half its manufacturing went abroad, especially Eastern Europe, and it was a half disaster. Now there is an attempt to use cheap immigrant labor from Africa, and it promises to be a complete disaster, but it will be probably stopped by the new government.

The right solution should be high added value productions -- fortunately there is still a strong manufacturing base. There is quite a lot of those, e.g., in defense, but not enough.




How's that for a two-sentence socio-historic-economic-geopolitical analysis?

IADFCO wrote:

Defaulting would have been catastrophic, but devaluing is how Italy maintained competitiveness until they got into the Euro in 2001 IIRC (so devaluation was OK throughout the 90s).

Devaluation is not an ideal long-term solution either. It increases the cost of imports - of which energy is the most critical - which is disadvantageous in an economy reliant on them. Interestingly, the lira was extremely stable 1945-1975 (as it was directly pegged to USD until 1971) but had lost 50% of its value by 1982, a time of high inflation.

The Turkish lira is undergoing rapid devaluation currently, let's see if that gives Turkey the needed economic boost.

mxaxai wrote:

Redd wrote:

It's not that the right is gaining ground, the left is losing it, and the right is the only voting alternative.

We've already had a Europe ruled by right-wing nationalists and it didn't end well. No need to make the same mistake twice.

Half of Europe was behind an Iron Curtain led by left wing communists that were even worse than said right wing nationalists (body count wise anyhow). What's your point?

Redd wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

Redd wrote:

It's not that the right is gaining ground, the left is losing it, and the right is the only voting alternative.

We've already had a Europe ruled by right-wing nationalists and it didn't end well. No need to make the same mistake twice.

Half of Europe was behind an Iron Curtain led by left wing communists that were even worse than said right wing nationalists (body count wise anyhow). What's your point?

You'll have to dig quite deep to find a left-wing party in Western Europe that aims for the kind of measures that the likes of Hungary and Poland are being called out for (independence of the judiciary, media control, etc.)

Even the (in)famous Syriza in Greece had to walk back and fall in line with their anti-austerity stance.

Delete please

JJJ wrote:

Redd wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

We've already had a Europe ruled by right-wing nationalists and it didn't end well. No need to make the same mistake twice.

Half of Europe was behind an Iron Curtain led by left wing communists that were even worse than said right wing nationalists (body count wise anyhow). What's your point?

You'll have to dig quite deep to find a left-wing party in Western Europe that aims for the kind of measures that the likes of Hungary and Poland are being called out for (independence of the judiciary, media control, etc.)

Even the (in)famous Syriza in Greece had to walk back and fall in line with their anti-austerity stance.

I don't know if you'd read the previous posts. But it wasn't about my team is better than your team, bla bla bla. It was about why the left is losing ground to the right, and a mention of the fact that both the left and the right have some recent genocidal history in Europe. The left more so than the right.

But yes, certainly Polish and Hungarian governments aren't anywhere near ideal. The difference between rational people and the modern left, is that rational people can deduce the reasons why people are voting for these governments. The modern left's reasons: Rednecks, backwards people, stupid people, bla bla homophobic, not tolerant, transphobic......!!!!! That will not help the left get back on track, good luck with that approach.

This is coming from an old school liberal, btw. So I'd like to have a rational center left option to vote for.

Newark727 wrote:

If you'd prefer me to be earnest, I can be. Here are the facts - every government that has inveighed against communists, "globalists," and progressives in the name of "putting their nation first" and preserving their "Latin european culture" goes to the anti-Semitism well eventually. Hungary has, Russia has, Trump did. If you think that the Italian far-right won't, you're dangerously naive - assuming that isn't your goal to begin with. No sarcasm.

It's been repeated so many times that it just requires the most cursory reading of history. But that would be critical race theory.

Redd wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

If you'd prefer me to be earnest, I can be. Here are the facts - every government that has inveighed against communists, "globalists," and progressives in the name of "putting their nation first" and preserving their "Latin european culture" goes to the anti-Semitism well eventually. Hungary has, Russia has, Trump did. If you think that the Italian far-right won't, you're dangerously naive - assuming that isn't your goal to begin with. No sarcasm.

I don't know where you're getting the anti-semtism, but you might as well throw it in there for good measure with all of your other judgments of all other people who don't view the world exactly as you do. Inveighing against communism is critical as well. Every country that has any sort of personal freedom's today stood against communism.

Often against their will! Show me you haven't read any history without telling me you haven't read any history.

DeltaMD95 wrote:

SEAorPWM wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

So proud of Italy’s citizens and Meloni. Embrace your culture, your family, your religion, your sovereignty. Do not allow anti-Italic/communist/globalist bigots to intimate or influence you. Stand by your Latin European principles and be strong. No one other than the extreme radical left “progressives” think England or France are better off now than 30 years ago.

Let’s be real: If you were genuinely concerned about gay rights, there would be countless countries for you to exhibit your SJW energy towards before your crosshairs would land on Italy.

This is just a red herring to justify your own homophobia, much like the GOP who will regularly meet with "kill the gays" pastors and then remind us how they stand against the moose lambs who are the real danger, when in fact Muslims are on average far more progressive than conservative christians, and the GOP has no problem sucking up to Saudi Arabia all day.

MaverickM11 wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

SEAorPWM wrote:

Let’s be real: If you were genuinely concerned about gay rights, there would be countless countries for you to exhibit your SJW energy towards before your crosshairs would land on Italy.

This is just a red herring to justify your own homophobia, much like the GOP who will regularly meet with "kill the gays" pastors and then remind us how they stand against the moose lambs who are the real danger, when in fact Muslims are on average far more progressive than conservative christians, and the GOP has no problem sucking up to Saudi Arabia all day.

MaverickM11, is this directed at me? What exactly are you talking about? Who is this unnamed mythical 14 year old gay boy SEAorPWM cites that was disowned by his family and abandoned due to his sexuality because of Giorgia Meloni? And moreover, what does this non-sequitur have to do with restoring a country’s cultural preservation and improving the lives of its citizens economically?

Newark727 wrote:

If you'd prefer me to be earnest, I can be. Here are the facts - every government that has inveighed against communists, "globalists," and progressives in the name of "putting their nation first" and preserving their "Latin european culture" goes to the anti-Semitism well eventually. Hungary has, Russia has, Trump did. If you think that the Italian far-right won't, you're dangerously naive - assuming that isn't your goal to begin with. No sarcasm.

See Godwin’s Law, anyone disagreeing with me must be a Nazi. Very common idea. I’m sure Reagan, Thatcher were anti-Semitic.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

If you'd prefer me to be earnest, I can be. Here are the facts - every government that has inveighed against communists, "globalists," and progressives in the name of "putting their nation first" and preserving their "Latin european culture" goes to the anti-Semitism well eventually. Hungary has, Russia has, Trump did. If you think that the Italian far-right won't, you're dangerously naive - assuming that isn't your goal to begin with. No sarcasm.

See Godwin’s Law, anyone disagreeing with me must be a Nazi. Very common idea. I’m sure Reagan, Thatcher were anti-Semitic.

Reagan? Probably not. But he told his supporters what they wanted to hear. And he wanted the support of people who thought that civil rights movement was communist race-mixing and AIDS was punishment for the decadent homosexual lifestyle, so he didn't say a word to challenge those people. His successors acted much the same. Keep doing that for a generation, and suddenly you have people marching down the streets of Virginia with torches yelling that "Jews will not replace us!" and honestly thinking that they represent the right wing. And, I mean, CPAC where all the Republican presidential wannabes hang out, did bring in Hungarian autocrat Viktor Orban, whose record on anti-Semitism is pretty dubious, to speak to them, so maybe they're not entirely wrong.

MaverickM11 wrote:

[
Show me you haven't read any history without telling me you haven't read any history.

.

Euphemisms without substance, color me surprised. But sure, I'll answer just for the hell of it. USA, #1 chaser of commies worldwide, #1 supporter of Israel, so anti-communism & anti-Semitism do not go hand in hand, do they? Not in all examples, but when they do:

If you're going after the commies, Jews will be a target as communism was quite popular among Jews. The 1st central committee of the USSR was about 40% Jewish, at a time when Jews barly made up 1.8% of the Soviet population.

Lenin was part Jewish, Trotsky, Iurii Kamenev, Maksim Litvinov, Karl Radek, Iakov Sverdlov, and Grigorii Zinov’ev, pretty much the who's who of early communism was Jewish. Marx, was ethnically Jewish, but his family converted to Christianity to make life easier for themselves in anti-Semitic times.

So going after communism was largely synonymous with going after Jewish people because the two were inextricably linked, fairly or unfairly. Some of the most notorious spies for the USSR, Klaus Fuchs, the Rosenbergs, etc...

So just labeling anyone who is anti-communism, anti-Semitic, isn't only false, but it's also in the cases that it is true, is not so simple as just disliking Jews for the sake of disliking Jews. I can go on and on with more examples of Jewish history and communism tightly linked if you'd like. But I'm pretty sure you get the point. History isn't so black and white as simple people would like it to be.

Redd wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Redd wrote:

Half of Europe was behind an Iron Curtain led by left wing communists that were even worse than said right wing nationalists (body count wise anyhow). What's your point?

You'll have to dig quite deep to find a left-wing party in Western Europe that aims for the kind of measures that the likes of Hungary and Poland are being called out for (independence of the judiciary, media control, etc.)

Even the (in)famous Syriza in Greece had to walk back and fall in line with their anti-austerity stance.

I don't know if you'd read the previous posts. But it wasn't about my team is better than your team, bla bla bla. It was about why the left is losing ground to the right, and a mention of the fact that both the left and the right have some recent genocidal history in Europe. The left more so than the right.

But it is. "The right" shouldn't mean Putin cosplayers seizing the judiciary and strongarming media, but there they are.

And that's on the right, not the left.

DeltaMD95 wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

This is just a red herring to justify your own homophobia, much like the GOP who will regularly meet with "kill the gays" pastors and then remind us how they stand against the moose lambs who are the real danger, when in fact Muslims are on average far more progressive than conservative christians, and the GOP has no problem sucking up to Saudi Arabia all day.

MaverickM11, is this directed at me? What exactly are you talking about? Who is this unnamed mythical 14 year old gay boy SEAorPWM cites that was disowned by his family and abandoned due to his sexuality because of Giorgia Meloni? And moreover, what does this non-sequitur have to do with restoring a country’s cultural preservation and improving the lives of its citizens economically?

It's directed at whomever is whining about "SJW" and the LGBT community having the audacity to not want to be violently persecuted. "Cultural preservation" always means a very specific view of what is contained in that culture, and what is not. Meloni's party and colleagues are extremely anti LGBT, in the same way the GOP is in the USA--it doesn't matter that she's a single mother not following her own "traditional family" nonsense, or that the GOP's messiah is a thrice married adulterer who bangs hookers. All that matters is the preservation of the "culture", ie straight white christian families. Anything else is the enemy.

Redd wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

[
Show me you haven't read any history without telling me you haven't read any history.

.

History isn't so black and white as simple people would like it to be.

You say that while doubling down on the canard that the US was a freedom fighter spreading democracy and personal freedoms while fighting communism around the globe, which is one of the easiest myths to debunk.

MaverickM11 wrote:

You say that while doubling down on the canard that the US was a freedom fighter spreading democracy and personal freedoms while fighting communism around the globe, which is one of the easiest myths to debunk.

Can you show me where I said anything about America spreading democracy and personal freedoms, and being number 1 at it? No? And doubling down? lol

I'm pretty sure I just outlined the connection between anti-communism and anti-Semitism in certain cases. But you are welcome to tell me what my intentions were, you seem to be good at that.

JJJ wrote:

Redd wrote:

JJJ wrote:

You'll have to dig quite deep to find a left-wing party in Western Europe that aims for the kind of measures that the likes of Hungary and Poland are being called out for (independence of the judiciary, media control, etc.)

Even the (in)famous Syriza in Greece had to walk back and fall in line with their anti-austerity stance.

I don't know if you'd read the previous posts. But it wasn't about my team is better than your team, bla bla bla. It was about why the left is losing ground to the right, and a mention of the fact that both the left and the right have some recent genocidal history in Europe. The left more so than the right.

But it is. "The right" shouldn't mean Putin cosplayers seizing the judiciary and strongarming media, but there they are.

And that's on the right, not the left.

The left stuff courts just as much as the right does, and does the same thing with state-owned media. In Poland for example, the state media, TVP was a mouth piece for the center left government, PO. Since 2015, it's a mouth piece for the religious right wing PiS party. Both parties stuffed their own people in there and purged the non ideologically aligned when they came into power. The issue is with the people that are okay with such actions if it's 'their side' doing the deeds.

In the USA, most media is a mouthpiece for the left. Just look at CNN (which seems to be changing under new ownership) and MSNBC. Those ceased being news channels to any degree and became FOX for the left. All politics are dirty and use the same tricks, and it's getting worse and worse. But only one side is cancelling people, calling them somethingphobes or racists if they disagree to the slightest from their ideology, demonizing many groups of people in the meantime, and not expecting a backlash.

The left is losing ground, and it's the left's fault where it's happening.

MaverickM11 wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

This is just a red herring to justify your own homophobia, much like the GOP who will regularly meet with "kill the gays" pastors and then remind us how they stand against the moose lambs who are the real danger, when in fact Muslims are on average far more progressive than conservative christians, and the GOP has no problem sucking up to Saudi Arabia all day.

MaverickM11, is this directed at me? What exactly are you talking about? Who is this unnamed mythical 14 year old gay boy SEAorPWM cites that was disowned by his family and abandoned due to his sexuality because of Giorgia Meloni? And moreover, what does this non-sequitur have to do with restoring a country’s cultural preservation and improving the lives of its citizens economically?

It's directed at whomever is whining about "SJW" and the LGBT community having the audacity to not want to be violently persecuted. "Cultural preservation" always means a very specific view of what is contained in that culture, and what is not. Meloni's party and colleagues are extremely anti LGBT, in the same way the GOP is in the USA--it doesn't matter that she's a single mother not following her own "traditional family" nonsense, or that the GOP's messiah is a thrice married adulterer who bangs hookers. All that matters is the preservation of the "culture", ie straight white christian families. Anything else is the enemy.

Ah, okay...These predictable grievance cards, intended to distract and change the conversation. Victim bonus seeking 101: when all else fails go the “-ist” route, turn your opponent for which you cannot debate on merit into the “bad guy” with false accusations and generalizations. (Notice you never clarified who the fictional 14 year old disowned gay boy was). Absolute non-sequitur of an argument indeed.

Since you went there, here’s a lesson for you: You’re NOT entitled to your hypocrisy or expectation of preferential treatment. Save your anti-“white” heterophobic rhetoric for another culture. And get a clue: Neither the K or W is a part of the Italian alphabet and at least 1/3rd of its native born citizens have olive complexions, ie level 4 on the Fitzpatrick scale of dermatology. But you wouldn’t know anything about that…There’s no social construct to exploit for grievances and deception there…