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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Living near a sanctuary city, we're flooded with an influx of people. The system is overwhelmed. There is no way to keep up with the number of people, in my opinion.


Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.
 
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NIKV69
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:23 pm

seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:28 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?



So now you are telling me you are supporting Defund the police? Defund the prison system, the legal system, the Department of Defense?



The Tax Payer always has to pay for that which we need for our communities, as chosen by our representatives, as chosen by the people.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:19 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?


It’s crazy I know, but there are many people who will support those in need regardless of where they’re from.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:26 pm

We need immigration to keep our population from shrinking. As well as provide most of the low paid jobs in aviation (anyone on site interested in aviation? LOL), hospitality including restaurants, construction, farming, food processing. Then their dang kids go get an education and don't want to do those jobs 'cause they can get better ones'. From a nationalistic point of view our world power is very dependent upon a slowly rising population. Tell Abbot etc we'll take them, keep the good workers and educated kids, and ship the rest back to Texas or Florida.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:35 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?


What in the world are you talking about?
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:18 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?


Except those humans trafficked by DeSantis were here legally awaiting hearings on their asylum applications. But the system is so backed up because of Republican budget cuts, they have to wait. And, yes, under American immigration law, it is perfectly legal for these people to be in the United States.
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:25 pm

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?


Except those humans trafficked by DeSantis were here legally awaiting hearings on their asylum applications. But the system is so backed up because of Republican budget cuts, they have to wait. And, yes, under American immigration law, it is perfectly legal for these people to be in the United States.


They have a status, but are not legal per se. They are not LAPRs (Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence). They are paroled in pending the outcome of their case.
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:30 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?


Except those humans trafficked by DeSantis were here legally awaiting hearings on their asylum applications. But the system is so backed up because of Republican budget cuts, they have to wait. And, yes, under American immigration law, it is perfectly legal for these people to be in the United States.


They have a status, but are not legal per se. They are not LAPRs (Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence). They are paroled in pending the outcome of their case.


Right. They can legally be in the United States to await their hearing. Which are in Texas, not Massachusetts. They were trafficked thousands of miles away with no resources on arrival and no way to get back to where they were waiting for their hearings. Let's not lose focus. Though not full and legal citizens, they were in the country legally because they were waiting for their hearings.
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:32 pm

Since we are talking about migrants being trafficked

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/15/us/migra ... index.html
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/2-buses-of- ... c-fox-news

IIRC, the right were upset over people protesting outside officials homes, but this is fine?
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Except those humans trafficked by DeSantis were here legally awaiting hearings on their asylum applications. But the system is so backed up because of Republican budget cuts, they have to wait. And, yes, under American immigration law, it is perfectly legal for these people to be in the United States.


They have a status, but are not legal per se. They are not LAPRs (Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence). They are paroled in pending the outcome of their case.


Right. They can legally be in the United States to await their hearing. Which are in Texas, not Massachusetts. They were trafficked thousands of miles away with no resources on arrival and no way to get back to where they were waiting for their hearings. Let's not lose focus. Though not full and legal citizens, they were in the country legally because they were waiting for their hearings.


Not true at all. Once they have status, its not trafficking. I'm not going to break it down, but I know a lot about immigration and immigration laws, and it is 100% not trafficking. If they had not been processes and released, yes it could be, but once processed and released, its not. You can either take that or leave it as is because I will not go further into it on an internet message board. Their hearings dates, times and locations are generally not set. They are given a list of numbers to call when they get to their final destination. They are then connected to the local ICE Detention Docket and the process moves on from their. They are also not connected to that ICE Detention Docket, they can move where ever they want, they just have to provide the updated address and the case is transferred to the new local office. Nothing they did violates an US immigration laws. It looks like the individuals volunteered to go and singed waivers in their native languages. The southern border communities are 100% tapped out on resources from the over 2.2M encounters this fiscal year. Its not a bad thing for a lot of these folks to get away from there. As far as if the individuals were lied to or miss lead, I will wait to see if any evidence of that pops up before I cast accusations.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:05 pm

seb146 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Living near a sanctuary city, we're flooded with an influx of people. The system is overwhelmed. There is no way to keep up with the number of people, in my opinion.


Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.

There just isn't enough possible funding. The middle class cannot keep up. The is we are encouraging too many here. With inflation, the middle class is being crushed. Our issue is the need for skilled labor in today's society.

I don't know the answer, but we simply do not have the resources to handle the current levels of immigration. If the funds to help immigration increase, so will immigration.

Lightsaber
 
Newark727
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I don't know the answer, but we simply do not have the resources to handle the current levels of immigration.
Lightsaber


Do we not? We're pretty much the richest society to ever exist. A far less wealthy society accepted far more people legally in the 19th century. We're on pace to creating people worth half a trillion dollars in a few years. We absolutely have the resources. We just don't care to use them.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:24 pm

Lightsaber is right.

We aren't that rich. We've borrowed the money to sustain our life style and government budgets and wars. Now Norway, Switzerland, Dubai, Kuwait, UAE - those guys are rich.

And a lot of our wealth is based on inflated assets that have been pumped up by low cost money from the banks. Check your 401k recently?

Nobody coming here in the the 19th century got anything from the Government. And we had just stolen all that land from the Indians so we had plenty of room. There is a whole thread on here that talks about the cost of housing. How expensive will housing be with 400 million people?
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:48 am

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

They have a status, but are not legal per se. They are not LAPRs (Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence). They are paroled in pending the outcome of their case.


Right. They can legally be in the United States to await their hearing. Which are in Texas, not Massachusetts. They were trafficked thousands of miles away with no resources on arrival and no way to get back to where they were waiting for their hearings. Let's not lose focus. Though not full and legal citizens, they were in the country legally because they were waiting for their hearings.


Not true at all. Once they have status, its not trafficking.


They were told they would get housing, food, jobs, and health care but were, instead, dropped off on an island off Massachusetts. They were trafficked. It was all for show. It gained points for DeSantis by the base. Nothing more.

https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:50 am

lightsaber wrote:
seb146 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Living near a sanctuary city, we're flooded with an influx of people. The system is overwhelmed. There is no way to keep up with the number of people, in my opinion.


Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.

There just isn't enough possible funding. The middle class cannot keep up. The is we are encouraging too many here. With inflation, the middle class is being crushed. Our issue is the need for skilled labor in today's society.

I don't know the answer, but we simply do not have the resources to handle the current levels of immigration. If the funds to help immigration increase, so will immigration.

Lightsaber


We have the funding for building bridges to nowhere and 20+ year wars but not to process immigrants? No one (except the MAGAs) are saying admit every one, no questions asked. We want the system to work. And, to do that, the system must be funded. Maybe move money from useless stuff to things like this. Others, too, but that is off topic.
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:35 am

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Right. They can legally be in the United States to await their hearing. Which are in Texas, not Massachusetts. They were trafficked thousands of miles away with no resources on arrival and no way to get back to where they were waiting for their hearings. Let's not lose focus. Though not full and legal citizens, they were in the country legally because they were waiting for their hearings.


Not true at all. Once they have status, its not trafficking.


They were told they would get housing, food, jobs, and health care but were, instead, dropped off on an island off Massachusetts. They were trafficked. It was all for show. It gained points for DeSantis by the base. Nothing more.

https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking


It doesn't matter how many times you say it, they were not trafficked.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:53 am

lightsaber wrote:
seb146 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Living near a sanctuary city, we're flooded with an influx of people. The system is overwhelmed. There is no way to keep up with the number of people, in my opinion.


Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.

There just isn't enough possible funding. The middle class cannot keep up. The is we are encouraging too many here. With inflation, the middle class is being crushed. Our issue is the need for skilled labor in today's society.

I don't know the answer, but we simply do not have the resources to handle the current levels of immigration. If the funds to help immigration increase, so will immigration.

Lightsaber


According to my Canadian and Australian friends and colleagues, they cannot understand why Filipinos and Central Americans want to essentially end up in bad areas of US cities upon arrival after waiting so long for visas. From the perspective of many developed world foreigners, conditions in rural America and inner cities are not really much better than developing countries when factoring in cost of living and overall opportunity. Maybe they just don't know...or families just want to be together, as evidenced by three generations in one 4-bedroom house, a phenomenon that can be found in immigrant communities throughout the US.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.

There just isn't enough possible funding. The middle class cannot keep up. The is we are encouraging too many here. With inflation, the middle class is being crushed. Our issue is the need for skilled labor in today's society.

I don't know the answer, but we simply do not have the resources to handle the current levels of immigration. If the funds to help immigration increase, so will immigration.

Lightsaber


According to my Canadian and Australian friends and colleagues, they cannot understand why Filipinos and Central Americans want to essentially end up in bad areas of US cities upon arrival after waiting so long for visas. From the perspective of many developed world foreigners, conditions in rural America and inner cities are not really much better than developing countries when factoring in cost of living and overall opportunity. Maybe they just don't know...or families just want to be together, as evidenced by three generations in one 4-bedroom house, a phenomenon that can be found in immigrant communities throughout the US.



Freedom and Opportunity are strong draws. The ability to live together and send back money that means the world to someone still at home is also a draw. However like most immigrants, eventually the culture changes a bit, and so does the living conditions. The Middle Class will always be the Middle class. It is just a question of whether the Middle class wants everyone ( including the wealthy) to pay enough to keep the infrastructure going.

Immigration works in the opposite way as well. People can Emigrate. Eventually over centuries , there will be cultural and skilled exchanges throughout the world.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:35 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Not true at all. Once they have status, its not trafficking.


They were told they would get housing, food, jobs, and health care but were, instead, dropped off on an island off Massachusetts. They were trafficked. It was all for show. It gained points for DeSantis by the base. Nothing more.

https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking


It doesn't matter how many times you say it, they were not trafficked.


Yes. They were. They were lied to, promised things that were never delivered, and moved from one location to the next for the purposes of those moving them,.
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:35 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Not true at all. Once they have status, its not trafficking.


They were told they would get housing, food, jobs, and health care but were, instead, dropped off on an island off Massachusetts. They were trafficked. It was all for show. It gained points for DeSantis by the base. Nothing more.

https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking


It doesn't matter how many times you say it, they were not trafficked.


But they were, which is why I included the definition of human trafficking. The act of transporting or coercing people using fraud or force in order to benefit from their work or service. In this case, they were pawns for DeSantis' game. Since he didn't want to use any from his state, he went to another state, on Florida taxpayers dime, and did it. He wouldn't want to upset the voting block in his state, now would he?
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:01 pm

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

They were told they would get housing, food, jobs, and health care but were, instead, dropped off on an island off Massachusetts. They were trafficked. It was all for show. It gained points for DeSantis by the base. Nothing more.

https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking


It doesn't matter how many times you say it, they were not trafficked.


But they were, which is why I included the definition of human trafficking. The act of transporting or coercing people using fraud or force in order to benefit from their work or service. In this case, they were pawns for DeSantis' game. Since he didn't want to use any from his state, he went to another state, on Florida taxpayers dime, and did it. He wouldn't want to upset the voting block in his state, now would he?


I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:13 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, they were not trafficked.


But they were, which is why I included the definition of human trafficking. The act of transporting or coercing people using fraud or force in order to benefit from their work or service. In this case, they were pawns for DeSantis' game. Since he didn't want to use any from his state, he went to another state, on Florida taxpayers dime, and did it. He wouldn't want to upset the voting block in his state, now would he?


I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.


Your own definition defines what desantis did as Fraud.

Fraud and Coercion : Check
Personal or Financial Gain: Check. Personal Gain is Desantis trying to make a run for President. This had nothing to do with the welfare of those being trafficked.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:24 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?



You can worry about that when you become a tax-payer.


bpatus297 wrote:

They have a status, but are not legal per se. They are not LAPRs (Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence). They are paroled in pending the outcome of their case.


They still need to kept within their jurisdictions WRT state sponsored transport. If FL or TX have intentions to relocate them back for their respective hearings —they do not as those states lack the organizational skills/capabilities to do so— this is not an issue. But that is plainly not the case, so it is.

casinterest wrote:
Yes. They were. They were lied to, promised things that were never delivered, and moved from one location to the next for the purposes of those moving them,.


And this brings another problem. What exactly is the endgame for TX & FL here? There is not an obvious one, and in their respective cases, this means there is not one at all.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:15 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, they were not trafficked.


But they were, which is why I included the definition of human trafficking. The act of transporting or coercing people using fraud or force in order to benefit from their work or service. In this case, they were pawns for DeSantis' game. Since he didn't want to use any from his state, he went to another state, on Florida taxpayers dime, and did it. He wouldn't want to upset the voting block in his state, now would he?


I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.


Simple question: is it moral or ethical to use people as pawns in this way? Let's not pretend this is a consistent or legislatively-debated relocation policy either, because even if so, there is an obvious jurisdictional conflict.
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:49 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But they were, which is why I included the definition of human trafficking. The act of transporting or coercing people using fraud or force in order to benefit from their work or service. In this case, they were pawns for DeSantis' game. Since he didn't want to use any from his state, he went to another state, on Florida taxpayers dime, and did it. He wouldn't want to upset the voting block in his state, now would he?


I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.


Your own definition defines what desantis did as Fraud.

Fraud and Coercion : Check
Personal or Financial Gain: Check. Personal Gain is Desantis trying to make a run for President. This had nothing to do with the welfare of those being trafficked.


But all three elements have to be met, not two of three. Again, I have yet to see evidence that there was fraud, just accusations.
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:54 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Actually, there is: fund the system. Republicans keep slashing funding for things like immigration and health care and schools, then, when they start to fail, Republicans scream how the system does not work so we need to privatize everything. Privatization does not work. Fund these things and they will work.


Why is it on the taxpayer to fund people breaking the law?



You can worry about that when you become a tax-payer.


bpatus297 wrote:

They have a status, but are not legal per se. They are not LAPRs (Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence). They are paroled in pending the outcome of their case.


They still need to kept within their jurisdictions WRT state sponsored transport. If FL or TX have intentions to relocate them back for their respective hearings —they do not as those states lack the organizational skills/capabilities to do so— this is not an issue. But that is plainly not the case, so it is.

casinterest wrote:
Yes. They were. They were lied to, promised things that were never delivered, and moved from one location to the next for the purposes of those moving them,.


And this brings another problem. What exactly is the endgame for TX & FL here? There is not an obvious one, and in their respective cases, this means there is not one at all.



They absolutely do not need to stay in their jurisdictions. Well, let me side with you a tad, yes they have to stay in the jurisdiction of the Federal Gov, which is the entire United States.

https://www.ice.gov/doclib/detention/ch ... ess-en.pdf

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... essed.html

Do you want more proof that you don't need to stay in any particular area?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:58 pm

bpatus297 wrote:


They absolutely do not need to stay in their jurisdictions. Well, let me side with you a tad, yes they have to stay in the jurisdiction of the Federal Gov, which is the entire United States.

https://www.ice.gov/doclib/detention/ch ... ess-en.pdf

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... essed.html

Do you want more proof that you don't need to stay in any particular area?



You did not read what I wrote correctly, likely through lack of effort. This is not an issue of pedantry. You are simply wrong here.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:02 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.


Your own definition defines what desantis did as Fraud.

Fraud and Coercion : Check
Personal or Financial Gain: Check. Personal Gain is Desantis trying to make a run for President. This had nothing to do with the welfare of those being trafficked.


But all three elements have to be met, not two of three. Again, I have yet to see evidence that there was fraud, just accusations.


Three?

Fraud or Coercion is either or both. You don't need both. Regardless how is Fraud missing? They misrepresented the purpose of the trip to "Boston"
 
bpatus297
Posts: 896
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But they were, which is why I included the definition of human trafficking. The act of transporting or coercing people using fraud or force in order to benefit from their work or service. In this case, they were pawns for DeSantis' game. Since he didn't want to use any from his state, he went to another state, on Florida taxpayers dime, and did it. He wouldn't want to upset the voting block in his state, now would he?


I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.


Simple question: is it moral or ethical to use people as pawns in this way? Let's not pretend this is a consistent or legislatively-debated relocation policy either, because even if so, there is an obvious jurisdictional conflict.


No it is not, but its not just the right that are using immigrants as pawns. If you think so, then your eyes are shut. But, the non-political reason behind it is that the southern border communities are at a breaking point with the influx of immigrants that are released into their communities. See for your self, the Democratic Mayor of El Paso is doing the same thing, but you don't hear much about that. Wonder why?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/vi ... 9071941942
 
bpatus297
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:37 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:


They absolutely do not need to stay in their jurisdictions. Well, let me side with you a tad, yes they have to stay in the jurisdiction of the Federal Gov, which is the entire United States.

https://www.ice.gov/doclib/detention/ch ... ess-en.pdf

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... essed.html

Do you want more proof that you don't need to stay in any particular area?



You did not read what I wrote correctly, likely through lack of effort. This is not an issue of pedantry. You are simply wrong here.


I read what you wrote, and you are simply wrong. It is irrelevant if the state offers transportation to an alien once they have been processed and released or a if a family member pays for a plane or bus ticket. It simply doesn't matter where the alien moves, they are free to move anywhere they want and change their address. The Federal immigration system doesn't care who provides them transportation once they are processed and released.
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:39 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Your own definition defines what desantis did as Fraud.

Fraud and Coercion : Check
Personal or Financial Gain: Check. Personal Gain is Desantis trying to make a run for President. This had nothing to do with the welfare of those being trafficked.


But all three elements have to be met, not two of three. Again, I have yet to see evidence that there was fraud, just accusations.


Three?

Fraud or Coercion is either or both. You don't need both. Regardless how is Fraud missing? They misrepresented the purpose of the trip to "Boston"


The three elements are:

1-For sex or labor
2-Cohersion, fraud or other use of force
3-Personal or financial gain

Any way you slice it, number 1 is missing.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:57 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

But all three elements have to be met, not two of three. Again, I have yet to see evidence that there was fraud, just accusations.


Three?

Fraud or Coercion is either or both. You don't need both. Regardless how is Fraud missing? They misrepresented the purpose of the trip to "Boston"


The three elements are:

1-For sex or labor
2-Cohersion, fraud or other use of force
3-Personal or financial gain

Any way you slice it, number 1 is missing.


Labor? They are working for the person getting personal or financial gain. DeSantis , Abbott, and their whole team qualify
 
bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:04 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Three?

Fraud or Coercion is either or both. You don't need both. Regardless how is Fraud missing? They misrepresented the purpose of the trip to "Boston"


The three elements are:

1-For sex or labor
2-Cohersion, fraud or other use of force
3-Personal or financial gain

Any way you slice it, number 1 is missing.


Labor? They are working for the person getting personal or financial gain. DeSantis , Abbott, and their whole team qualify



They are not being trafficked for labor. What that is saying is indentured servitude or similar. If you don't believe me, look up the acts of Congress I linked. Your opinion on what happened doesn't change the legality of it.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 896
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:06 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

The three elements are:

1-For sex or labor
2-Cohersion, fraud or other use of force
3-Personal or financial gain

Any way you slice it, number 1 is missing.


Labor? They are working for the person getting personal or financial gain. DeSantis , Abbott, and their whole team qualify



They are not being trafficked for labor. What that is saying is indentured servitude or similar. If you don't believe me, look up the acts of Congress I linked. Your opinion on what happened doesn't change the legality of it. And if you want to hold to your belief, are you going to call the Mayor of El Paso a human trafficker as well?
 
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casinterest
Posts: 16072
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:33 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Labor? They are working for the person getting personal or financial gain. DeSantis , Abbott, and their whole team qualify



They are not being trafficked for labor. What that is saying is indentured servitude or similar. If you don't believe me, look up the acts of Congress I linked. Your opinion on what happened doesn't change the legality of it. And if you want to hold to your belief, are you going to call the Mayor of El Paso a human trafficker as well?



They trafficked them for temporary labor, and they used their human capital for their personal usage. These people were looking for acylium in the US. Not to be used as political pawns by dishonorable politicians.
Don't try to play a mayor of a city off against two governors going against the federal government.


//edit, and you know it was trafficking. Otherwise DeSantis would still be doing it, if he thought he was in the clear.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:49 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:



They are not being trafficked for labor. What that is saying is indentured servitude or similar. If you don't believe me, look up the acts of Congress I linked. Your opinion on what happened doesn't change the legality of it. And if you want to hold to your belief, are you going to call the Mayor of El Paso a human trafficker as well?



They trafficked them for temporary labor, and they used their human capital for their personal usage. These people were looking for acylium in the US. Not to be used as political pawns by dishonorable politicians.
Don't try to play a mayor of a city off against two governors going against the federal government.


//edit, and you know it was trafficking. Otherwise DeSantis would still be doing it, if he thought he was in the clear.


No matter what mental gymnastics you play to fit what happened into the Federal trafficking statues, its not. Since you don't care what the act of Congress says, I am done.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 16072
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:57 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:


They are not being trafficked for labor. What that is saying is indentured servitude or similar. If you don't believe me, look up the acts of Congress I linked. Your opinion on what happened doesn't change the legality of it. And if you want to hold to your belief, are you going to call the Mayor of El Paso a human trafficker as well?



They trafficked them for temporary labor, and they used their human capital for their personal usage. These people were looking for acylium in the US. Not to be used as political pawns by dishonorable politicians.
Don't try to play a mayor of a city off against two governors going against the federal government.


//edit, and you know it was trafficking. Otherwise DeSantis would still be doing it, if he thought he was in the clear.


No matter what mental gymnastics you play to fit what happened into the Federal trafficking statues, its not. Since you don't care what the act of Congress says, I am done.


Of course you are done. You admitted that DeSantis and Abbott engaged in Fraud, Kidnapping, misrepresentations, and a host of other crimes, but you want to deflect about whether human trafficking is most applicable based on whether the work they did was illegal or not?
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:04 pm

Well we can continue to argue but it appears that Haiti is about to really boil over due to food riots and the breakdown of law and order. Hurricane Ian did a number on Cuba.

If history is a guide, the boats will be on their way soon. Oh and a couple of thousand homes, trailers, and apartments in Florida just got destroyed.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 896
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:09 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


They trafficked them for temporary labor, and they used their human capital for their personal usage. These people were looking for acylium in the US. Not to be used as political pawns by dishonorable politicians.
Don't try to play a mayor of a city off against two governors going against the federal government.


//edit, and you know it was trafficking. Otherwise DeSantis would still be doing it, if he thought he was in the clear.


No matter what mental gymnastics you play to fit what happened into the Federal trafficking statues, its not. Since you don't care what the act of Congress says, I am done.


Of course you are done. You admitted that DeSantis and Abbott engaged in Fraud, Kidnapping, misrepresentations, and a host of other crimes, but you want to deflect about whether human trafficking is most applicable based on whether the work they did was illegal or not?


As much as I don't want to stay engaged, I cant sit by when you are outright lying about what I said. I said he may have committed fraud. I said I have only seen accusations and will wait for evidence before I make an informed opinion on that. I have not once said he kidnapped anyone, or a "host of other crimes". I am not deflecting, I was specifically addressing the trafficking claim made earlier.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 16072
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

No matter what mental gymnastics you play to fit what happened into the Federal trafficking statues, its not. Since you don't care what the act of Congress says, I am done.


Of course you are done. You admitted that DeSantis and Abbott engaged in Fraud, Kidnapping, misrepresentations, and a host of other crimes, but you want to deflect about whether human trafficking is most applicable based on whether the work they did was illegal or not?


As much as I don't want to stay engaged, I cant sit by when you are outright lying about what I said. I said he may have committed fraud. I said I have only seen accusations and will wait for evidence before I make an informed opinion on that. I have not once said he kidnapped anyone, or a "host of other crimes". I am not deflecting, I was specifically addressing the trafficking claim made earlier.



So since it crossed State lines. Shouldn't we let the Feds charge Abbot and Desantis with Crimes and see how the law works out?

I know certain people are abhorred and threatened by people that want to come to the US for better lives, but they should be just as abhorred and threatened by https://twitter.com/i/status/1575537782273019917eople who would commit major fraud and use humans as pawns for their own political aspirations.

They did kidnap these people. They lured these people under false pretenses and took them to a place other than promised.
 
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ua900
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:33 pm

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bpatus297
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:05 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Of course you are done. You admitted that DeSantis and Abbott engaged in Fraud, Kidnapping, misrepresentations, and a host of other crimes, but you want to deflect about whether human trafficking is most applicable based on whether the work they did was illegal or not?


As much as I don't want to stay engaged, I cant sit by when you are outright lying about what I said. I said he may have committed fraud. I said I have only seen accusations and will wait for evidence before I make an informed opinion on that. I have not once said he kidnapped anyone, or a "host of other crimes". I am not deflecting, I was specifically addressing the trafficking claim made earlier.



So since it crossed State lines. Shouldn't we let the Feds charge Abbot and Desantis with Crimes and see how the law works out?

I know certain people are abhorred and threatened by people that want to come to the US for better lives, but they should be just as abhorred and threatened by https://twitter.com/i/status/1575537782273019917eople who would commit major fraud and use humans as pawns for their own political aspirations.

They did kidnap these people. They lured these people under false pretenses and took them to a place other than promised.


You don't just charge crimes and see if they will stick. You have to have the elements of those crimes present and if its a felony, you generally go to a Grand Jury to get an indictment (or not) unless the crime is committed in the presence of an officer/agent. To head off the argument, this was not committed in the presence of an officer/agent. What statute should they be charged with? I think we covered that it doesn't meet the trafficking statue. They DOJ is going after Trump, pretty sure they wouldn't have an issue going after DeSantis if there was something there.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6332
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:43 pm

bpatus297 wrote:

No it is not, but its not just the right that are using immigrants as pawns. If you think so, then your eyes are shut. But, the non-political reason behind it is that the southern border communities are at a breaking point with the influx of immigrants that are released into their communities. See for your self, the Democratic Mayor of El Paso is doing the same thing, but you don't hear much about that. Wonder why?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/vi ... 9071941942


Here's another thing you don't hear much about. Why all these people are flocking here in the first place. Now I know what you're thinking, they're coming here for freedom and opportunity. That's the easy "rah, rah USA" answer.

Here's the connection that people in the America either haven't made, or have and don't want to admit to it. That this countries foreign and domestic policies have a tendency at times to create havoc in other parts of the world. Then as Americans we act bewildered as to why all these people show up at our door looking for a place to stay. But you really don't hear about that aspect do you? I'm guessing part of the reason is that if you do you will be viciously attacked by certain segments of this country.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:50 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

As much as I don't want to stay engaged, I cant sit by when you are outright lying about what I said. I said he may have committed fraud. I said I have only seen accusations and will wait for evidence before I make an informed opinion on that. I have not once said he kidnapped anyone, or a "host of other crimes". I am not deflecting, I was specifically addressing the trafficking claim made earlier.



So since it crossed State lines. Shouldn't we let the Feds charge Abbot and Desantis with Crimes and see how the law works out?

I know certain people are abhorred and threatened by people that want to come to the US for better lives, but they should be just as abhorred and threatened by https://twitter.com/i/status/1575537782273019917eople who would commit major fraud and use humans as pawns for their own political aspirations.

They did kidnap these people. They lured these people under false pretenses and took them to a place other than promised.


You don't just charge crimes and see if they will stick. You have to have the elements of those crimes present and if its a felony, you generally go to a Grand Jury to get an indictment (or not) unless the crime is committed in the presence of an officer/agent. To head off the argument, this was not committed in the presence of an officer/agent. What statute should they be charged with? I think we covered that it doesn't meet the trafficking statue. They DOJ is going after Trump, pretty sure they wouldn't have an issue going after DeSantis if there was something there.

Howeve
The DOJ may bring charges, there are multiple investigations going into how these people became political pawns of power hungry politicians. However too many in the media are giving passes to politicians for gross violations of Human Rights in these matters.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6332
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:51 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Well we can continue to argue but it appears that Haiti is about to really boil over due to food riots and the breakdown of law and order. Hurricane Ian did a number on Cuba.

If history is a guide, the boats will be on their way soon. Oh and a couple of thousand homes, trailers, and apartments in Florida just got destroyed.


That brings up a question no one seems to be asking. Why didn't Ron Desantis put a bunch recent Cuban immigrants living in Miami or any immigrants from South or Central America living in Florida on planes to other states. Answer is simple, because it would have been political suicide for him in the state of Florida to have done so. Which proves that this whole thing is nothing more than a cynical political stunt.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:42 am

I guess we might know soon what DeSantis does if a large number of Haitians and Cubans land on Key West.

"Migrant boat sinks off of Florida during Hurricane Ian 23 missing" Turns out there were 7 survivors and 19 lost at sea"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hurricane- ... -florida/#

With all the new homeless in Florida, that will put even more pressure on the State.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24946
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:58 am

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.


Simple question: is it moral or ethical to use people as pawns in this way? Let's not pretend this is a consistent or legislatively-debated relocation policy either, because even if so, there is an obvious jurisdictional conflict.


No it is not, but its not just the right that are using immigrants as pawns. If you think so, then your eyes are shut. But, the non-political reason behind it is that the southern border communities are at a breaking point with the influx of immigrants that are released into their communities. See for your self, the Democratic Mayor of El Paso is doing the same thing, but you don't hear much about that. Wonder why?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/vi ... 9071941942


If you are going to make the "both sides do it" argument, at least compare apples to apples. The mayor of El Paso is working with the federal government as well as governments in NYC and Chicago and asking for help while these LEGAL immigrants await their hearings. This NBC piece is a little misleading that the ILLEGAL crossings are not sent back. In fact, those arrested crossing ILLEGALLY and sent back is actually UP under this administration compared to the previous "law and order" "build the wall" "secure borders" administration.

Compare that to DeSantis who used Florida taxpayer money to travel to Texas to traffic humans to Washington and Massachusetts and gave those places zero warning and worked with no one but the companies aiding his trafficking. How is any of that the same?
 
LMP737
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:26 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
I guess we might know soon what DeSantis does if a large number of Haitians and Cubans land on Key West.

"Migrant boat sinks off of Florida during Hurricane Ian 23 missing" Turns out there were 7 survivors and 19 lost at sea"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hurricane- ... -florida/#

With all the new homeless in Florida, that will put even more pressure on the State.


Considering how close the 2018 Florida governors race was I don't think he will be putting them on an airplane.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:37 am

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I don't care if you listen to me or not as you most certainly already have your mind made up and are not willing to consider different viewpoints, but as someone in the know of immigration and immigration law, they were not trafficked. Look up the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 and the subsequent Trafficking Victims Protection Re-authorization Acts. Federally, trafficking is defined as: the use of force, fraud or coercion to exploit other people through sex or labor for financial or personal gain. Smuggling is often mislabeled as trafficking, but they are two distinct and different crimes and are not interchangeable. But neither trafficking or smuggling apply in this case. There could be some fraud or lying, but I will wait to see what evidence is presented before I make an option on that. I have only seen some accusations from people with a political bias that the individuals were lied too, no evidence yet. They were not trafficked, even is if fraud is found, because it was not for sex or labor and there was no financial or personal gain. I will grant you that the political clout from this could be looked at as personal gain, but I don't think that is black and white.


Simple question: is it moral or ethical to use people as pawns in this way? Let's not pretend this is a consistent or legislatively-debated relocation policy either, because even if so, there is an obvious jurisdictional conflict.


No it is not, but its not just the right that are using immigrants as pawns. If you think so, then your eyes are shut. But, the non-political reason behind it is that the southern border communities are at a breaking point with the influx of immigrants that are released into their communities. See for your self, the Democratic Mayor of El Paso is doing the same thing, but you don't hear much about that. Wonder why?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/vi ... 9071941942


I didn’t say anything in that vein. But I will say that immigrants as bogeymen/heroes is a tired and reliable catch-all political crux. They are pawns in a cynical macroeconomic game that the middle class have been slowly victimized in since the 1970s - it’s nothing to do with immigrants themselves. Just economic reality.

Something I saw on Twitter that really resonated:

No immigrant has taken your job. You were laid off by a capitalist who required cheap labor and took advantage of that immigrant to increase his profits, and nothing makes him happier than to hear you blame the immigrant and not him.

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos