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william
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‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:04 pm

This is interesting and fascinating politcal theatre to watch until one realizes real humans are the participants. The hypocrisy of both political parties are on full display here. No shame in their game. The Martha's Vineyard's response was priceless. Look forward to reading the responses from the normal "bots".

‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

https://www.yahoo.com/news/influx-migra ... 17090.html

"NEW YORK (AP) — There are few places in the U.S. with a more deeply ingrained reputation as a refuge for immigrants than New York City, where the Statue of Liberty rises from the harbor as a symbol of welcome for the worn and weary.

But for Mayor Eric Adams, reconciling that image with an influx of migrants landing in the city, including thousands being bused there by Republican Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas, is proving difficult. The city is struggling to accommodate what Adams says has totaled more than 13,000 asylum seekers, leading him to explore whether New York can ease its practices for sheltering the homeless or even temporarily house migrants on cruise ships. Both ideas have drawn blowback from liberal advocates who are influential in the city’s politics.

Adams is one of several leaders of Democratic-leaning jurisdictions facing a sudden test of their commitment to being "sanctuary” cities or states. The designation, in which local officials pledge to limit their cooperation with federal immigration authorities, has long proved popular among progressives pressing to ensure the government treats migrants humanely."
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:17 pm

Those flow to Martha's Vineyard were trafficked there. De Santis went to Texas, promised these people a big surprise and housing and jobs. He didn't even give Martha's Vineyard a heads up. Also, these people had petitions in immigration court to decide if their petition for asylum would be heard. But, because the right is obsessed with defunding the government in all facets, immigration courts are backed up.

So, now, we have asylum seekers, who have court dates and can legally be in the country (thanks to decades old laws) in a completely different state and could miss their court dates. All because some Americans believe these asylum seekers are not human.

https://help.unhcr.org/usa/applying-for ... of-asylum/

EDIT:

Arrests at the border are UP under this administration versus the previous administration. But, we have "open borders" somehow? I am still waiting for someone to explain this to me. Who demands "open borders" and who makes sure we have "open borders" if arrests are UP under this administration?

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19 ... cord-2022/
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp- ... statistics
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:40 pm

william wrote:
This is interesting and fascinating politcal theatre to watch until one realizes real humans are the participants. The hypocrisy of both political parties are on full display here. No shame in their game. The Martha's Vineyard's response was priceless. Look forward to reading the responses from the normal "bots".


Yes, Martha's Vineyard did a very good job and succeeded in handling the unexpected arrival very well. Definitely showed how failed the states the do this are. In ia a question you should pose to those states as to why they can't manage to address the issues even with funding and support and foreknowledge of the issue.

I will say, your comment on looking forward to getting responses from "normal bots" is pretty silly. It indicates an intent/expectation of flame-baiting. Likely means the thread will be removed.

Tugg
 
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william
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:47 pm

Tugger wrote:
william wrote:
This is interesting and fascinating politcal theatre to watch until one realizes real humans are the participants. The hypocrisy of both political parties are on full display here. No shame in their game. The Martha's Vineyard's response was priceless. Look forward to reading the responses from the normal "bots".


Yes, Martha's Vineyard did a very good job and succeeded in handling the unexpected arrival very well. Definitely showed how failed the states the do this are. In ia a question you should pose to those states as to why they can't manage to address the issues even with funding and support and foreknowledge of the issue.

I will say, your comment on looking forward to getting responses from "normal bots" is pretty silly. It indicates an intent/expectation of flame-baiting. Likely means the thread will be removed.

Tugg


Not silly at all, its what happens here. Expect out of 10 responses, two will be interesting and thought provoking and the other 8 to read like talking points from Fox News or MSNBC. It happens all the time, I just stated it.

I am looking forward to reading insightful posts that makes one think.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:11 pm

william wrote:
Tugger wrote:
william wrote:
This is interesting and fascinating politcal theatre to watch until one realizes real humans are the participants. The hypocrisy of both political parties are on full display here. No shame in their game. The Martha's Vineyard's response was priceless. Look forward to reading the responses from the normal "bots".


Yes, Martha's Vineyard did a very good job and succeeded in handling the unexpected arrival very well. Definitely showed how failed the states the do this are. In ia a question you should pose to those states as to why they can't manage to address the issues even with funding and support and foreknowledge of the issue.

I will say, your comment on looking forward to getting responses from "normal bots" is pretty silly. It indicates an intent/expectation of flame-baiting. Likely means the thread will be removed.

Tugg


Not silly at all, its what happens here. Expect out of 10 responses, two will be interesting and thought provoking and the other 8 to read like talking points from Fox News or MSNBC. It happens all the time, I just stated it.

I am looking forward to reading insightful posts that makes one think.



You say you are asking for a decent discussion, but you opened the thread with antagonistic sound bitess, and nothing very thought provoking in and of itself.
Are you expecting the rest of us to build from the ashes of a dumpster fire?
 
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william
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
william wrote:
Tugger wrote:

Yes, Martha's Vineyard did a very good job and succeeded in handling the unexpected arrival very well. Definitely showed how failed the states the do this are. In ia a question you should pose to those states as to why they can't manage to address the issues even with funding and support and foreknowledge of the issue.

I will say, your comment on looking forward to getting responses from "normal bots" is pretty silly. It indicates an intent/expectation of flame-baiting. Likely means the thread will be removed.

Tugg


Not silly at all, its what happens here. Expect out of 10 responses, two will be interesting and thought provoking and the other 8 to read like talking points from Fox News or MSNBC. It happens all the time, I just stated it.

I am looking forward to reading insightful posts that makes one think.



You say you are asking for a decent discussion, but you opened the thread with antagonistic sound bitess, and nothing very thought provoking in and of itself.
Are you expecting the rest of us to build from the ashes of a dumpster fire?


I stated what normally happens to most topics here. Just trying to get ahead of it.
 
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william
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
Those flow to Martha's Vineyard were trafficked there. De Santis went to Texas, promised these people a big surprise and housing and jobs. He didn't even give Martha's Vineyard a heads up. Also, these people had petitions in immigration court to decide if their petition for asylum would be heard. But, because the right is obsessed with defunding the government in all facets, immigration courts are backed up.

So, now, we have asylum seekers, who have court dates and can legally be in the country (thanks to decades old laws) in a completely different state and could miss their court dates. All because some Americans believe these asylum seekers are not human.

https://help.unhcr.org/usa/applying-for ... of-asylum/

EDIT:

Arrests at the border are UP under this administration versus the previous administration. But, we have "open borders" somehow? I am still waiting for someone to explain this to me. Who demands "open borders" and who makes sure we have "open borders" if arrests are UP under this administration?

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19 ... cord-2022/
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp- ... statistics


To your point about lower arrests. Serious question, because there must be a disconnect, when someone crosses over and states they want asylum is that considered an arrest?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:14 pm

william wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Those flow to Martha's Vineyard were trafficked there. De Santis went to Texas, promised these people a big surprise and housing and jobs. He didn't even give Martha's Vineyard a heads up. Also, these people had petitions in immigration court to decide if their petition for asylum would be heard. But, because the right is obsessed with defunding the government in all facets, immigration courts are backed up.

So, now, we have asylum seekers, who have court dates and can legally be in the country (thanks to decades old laws) in a completely different state and could miss their court dates. All because some Americans believe these asylum seekers are not human.

https://help.unhcr.org/usa/applying-for ... of-asylum/

EDIT:

Arrests at the border are UP under this administration versus the previous administration. But, we have "open borders" somehow? I am still waiting for someone to explain this to me. Who demands "open borders" and who makes sure we have "open borders" if arrests are UP under this administration?

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19 ... cord-2022/
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp- ... statistics


To your point about lower arrests. Serious question, because there must be a disconnect, when someone crosses over and states they want asylum is that considered an arrest?


No - there are both apprehensions and encounters, and not all of each lead to arrest. An asylum seeker would not immediately be subject to removal, and therefore not subject to arrest. Administratively, the reporting and classification requirements are fairly complex. You can see the various definitions here:

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... efinitions
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:16 pm

Putin's implementation of a draft is causing a large exodus from Russia. If he nukes Ukraine, expect pretty much the whole population of that country to be on the move.

And while this is happening, the US Federal Reserve is most likely going to spark a deep downturn in our economy. This will impact the economies of the rest of the Western Hemisphere most likely causing more migration north.

We (the US) better come up with plan and soon. It should be the number one priority of the US government outside of stopping nuclear war with Russia.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:24 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
[...]We (the US) better come up with plan and soon. [...]

What plans are being proposed by the legislature?

I am all for a good, smart immigration plan to be put into place. For me, I believe we need to increase allowed immigration and couple it with appropriate rules so those comign are able to support themselves and pay their way. Get jobs, work, and contribute.

Tugg
 
LCDFlight
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:55 pm

You have to love people saying “I am for diversity and welcoming people of all backgrounds, documented or not. But keep those hordes of immigrants the hell away from my community.”

I mean, this is a mic drop. This is an iconic moment in luxury politics.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:58 pm

Sanctuary cities are being inundated with people that were lied to by the border states, and are getting people dumped into the city with the wrong paperwork, and no information.

The immigrant influx is only being worsened by DeSantis and Abbott themselves .

Let's take a look at a recent story of a former Venezuelan small business owner bused to DC.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/18/us/t ... rides.html


When Lever Alejos of Venezuela arrived at the southern border penniless in July, he gladly accepted a free bus ride to Washington, D.C., courtesy of the state of Texas. He had no family or friends to receive him, and spent one night in the plaza across from Union Station. He soon settled into a homeless shelter.

“I have nothing,” Mr. Alejos, 29, said on his third day in the city, “but I have the will to work and succeed.”

Two months later, Mr. Alejos is making between $600 to $700 a week, saving up to buy a used car and planning to move out of the shelter.

“There is so much opportunity here,” he said on Thursday, at the end of a day’s work. “You just have to take advantage of it.”



Boom, American Dream Success Story.


So now you have border states willing to ship immigrants from the border north. Northerners willing to Help them, and these people are getting the jobs they need.
The US is getting a new resident that will pay taxes, pay for food, shelter, and products.

Exactly how do DeSantis and Abbott think this is going to reduce the amount of people showing up at the border looking for the same opportunity?



The migrant issue is due to the US's lack of ability to work with our neighbors to build them up. As long as we blame our neighbors, they can point at the evil US to take advantage of their populations, resulting in people needing to leave bad conditions.
Last edited by casinterest on Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:04 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
You have to love people saying “I am for diversity and welcoming people of all backgrounds, documented or not. But keep those hordes of immigrants the hell away from my community.”

I mean, this is a mic drop. This is an iconic moment in luxury politics.

Exactly, that Texas and Florida would do this, waste their citizens tax dollars dollars to, as you state "keep those hordes of immigrants the hell away from my community.” is luxury politics taken to its max. That those states governors are spending the amounts they are, just because they can spend it, is the definition of "luxury politics".

Tugg
 
MaverickM11
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:53 pm

Tugger wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
You have to love people saying “I am for diversity and welcoming people of all backgrounds, documented or not. But keep those hordes of immigrants the hell away from my community.”

I mean, this is a mic drop. This is an iconic moment in luxury politics.

Exactly, that Texas and Florida would do this, waste their citizens tax dollars dollars to, as you state "keep those hordes of immigrants the hell away from my community.” is luxury politics taken to its max. That those states governors are spending the amounts they are, just because they can spend it, is the definition of "luxury politics".

Tugg

And Florida would do that by paying 10x the going rate to charter them from Texas (which is not part of Florida) to MA... Luxury indeed.

LCDFlight wrote:
You have to love people saying “I am for diversity and welcoming people of all backgrounds, documented or not. But keep those hordes of immigrants the hell away from my community.”

I mean, this is a mic drop. This is an iconic moment in luxury politics.

No one is saying that.
 
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william
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:21 pm

Being from Texas, one knows many who are "undocumented". I remember a conversation with one who stated they did not want to stay in the US but work and take their money back home at the time Mexico. One cannot legally get a visa from Mexico because of government bureaucracy, and plan ineptitude. So you want a place to start, start with these inept governments and come up with a global Visa that will allow the transfer of money (wealth) back home. Tax the underground economy as it stands.

An interesting idea from an undocumented worker.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:39 pm

william wrote:
Being from Texas, one knows many who are "undocumented". I remember a conversation with one who stated they did not want to stay in the US but work and take their money back home at the time Mexico. One cannot legally get a visa from Mexico because of government bureaucracy, and plan ineptitude. So you want a place to start, start with these inept governments and come up with a global Visa that will allow the transfer of money (wealth) back home. Tax the underground economy as it stands.

An interesting idea from an undocumented worker.

You are talking about a work visa. Hell yes, and Mexico would be a great place to start. But it can't get through Congress as a certain subset of legislator's don't want to because it might "take jobs away from American's (I also think they fear making "illegal's" legal which can't be allowed).

So yes, I totally support that, work visa's and that needs to also include agricultural work.

Tugg
 
Newark727
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:41 pm

Glad to see Texas and Florida boldly stepping up to the challenge of illegal immigration by making it somebody else's problem.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:05 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Glad to see Texas and Florida boldly stepping up to the challenge of illegal immigration by making it somebody else's problem.


Hey now...kicking the can down the road (or in this case, to another state) had been the GQP mantra for years.

casinterest wrote:
Sanctuary cities are being inundated with people that were lied to by the border states, and are getting people dumped into the city with the wrong paperwork, and no information.

The immigrant influx is only being worsened by DeSantis and Abbott themselves .

Let's take a look at a recent story of a former Venezuelan small business owner bused to DC.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/18/us/t ... rides.html


When Lever Alejos of Venezuela arrived at the southern border penniless in July, he gladly accepted a free bus ride to Washington, D.C., courtesy of the state of Texas. He had no family or friends to receive him, and spent one night in the plaza across from Union Station. He soon settled into a homeless shelter.

“I have nothing,” Mr. Alejos, 29, said on his third day in the city, “but I have the will to work and succeed.”

Two months later, Mr. Alejos is making between $600 to $700 a week, saving up to buy a used car and planning to move out of the shelter.

“There is so much opportunity here,” he said on Thursday, at the end of a day’s work. “You just have to take advantage of it.”



Boom, American Dream Success Story.


So now you have border states willing to ship immigrants from the border north. Northerners willing to Help them, and these people are getting the jobs they need.
The US is getting a new resident that will pay taxes, pay for food, shelter, and products.

Exactly how do DeSantis and Abbott think this is going to reduce the amount of people showing up at the border looking for the same opportunity?



The migrant issue is due to the US's lack of ability to work with our neighbors to build them up. As long as we blame our neighbors, they can point at the evil US to take advantage of their populations, resulting in people needing to leave bad conditions.


But...but...those damn illegals stealing jobs!

Meanwhile I've always find Hispanics a hard-working group and in this case, one man's (state) trash is another one's treasure.
 
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NIKV69
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:27 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Hey now...kicking the can down the road (or in this case, to another state) had been the GQP mantra for years.



How are they doing that if you want AZ and TX to be the only states taking in the migrants and every blue state gets a pass?
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:28 pm

I will note how California has not yet started sending buses to Coeur d'Alene ID, Park City UT, or Jackson WY.

Tugg
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:34 pm

But isn't it the responsibility of the Federal Government to have a better plan that what we have now? The Canadian's seem to have a good one but they are blessed to have a 2 oceans and the US as buffers from people walking or sailing in.

And we should have a plan for a mass migration event - I recall many years ago the DOD did a table top drill dealing with a massive earthquake in Mexico City and the migration of millions north. The Mariel Boatlift from Cuba in 1980 was only 125,000 immigrants and we struggled with that.

And the US public should know what that plan is.
 
Newark727
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:41 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Hey now...kicking the can down the road (or in this case, to another state) had been the GQP mantra for years.



How are they doing that if you want AZ and TX to be the only states taking in the migrants and every blue state gets a pass?


That's not what he said. (Also ignores the existence of California.)
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:44 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
But isn't it the responsibility of the Federal Government to have a better plan that what we have now? The Canadian's seem to have a good one but they are blessed to have a 2 oceans and the US as buffers from people walking or sailing in.

And we should have a plan for a mass migration event - I recall many years ago the DOD did a table top drill dealing with a massive earthquake in Mexico City and the migration of millions north. The Mariel Boatlift from Cuba in 1980 was only 125,000 immigrants and we struggled with that.

And the US public should know what that plan is.

The USA very much should have a much better plan in place and I do not think it unfair if it were to have every state participate in the issue.

...Hey THAT is a great idea!

The White House should come forward with a plan, and very clearly thank Texas and Florida for their contribution, and have every state within the union have to participate equally for it to be implemented. Taking into account immigration numbers each state is already handling, then have them accept an equivalent portion of what border states see of immigration.

It will be interesting to see who has the biggest meltdown and refuses and blocks the TF (Texas-Florida) Immigration Sharing Plan.

Tugg
(And pedantry alert: Actually Canada has THREE oceans buffering them... :biggrin: )
 
CowAnon
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:52 pm

The US could follow the Canadian example and let each state set its own immigration policy.
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:49 am

william wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Those flow to Martha's Vineyard were trafficked there. De Santis went to Texas, promised these people a big surprise and housing and jobs. He didn't even give Martha's Vineyard a heads up. Also, these people had petitions in immigration court to decide if their petition for asylum would be heard. But, because the right is obsessed with defunding the government in all facets, immigration courts are backed up.

So, now, we have asylum seekers, who have court dates and can legally be in the country (thanks to decades old laws) in a completely different state and could miss their court dates. All because some Americans believe these asylum seekers are not human.

https://help.unhcr.org/usa/applying-for ... of-asylum/

EDIT:

Arrests at the border are UP under this administration versus the previous administration. But, we have "open borders" somehow? I am still waiting for someone to explain this to me. Who demands "open borders" and who makes sure we have "open borders" if arrests are UP under this administration?

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19 ... cord-2022/
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp- ... statistics


To your point about lower arrests. Serious question, because there must be a disconnect, when someone crosses over and states they want asylum is that considered an arrest?


No. An arrest is those people who climb the fence or tunnel under and are found by CBP. What you describe is perfectly legal and what these immigrants did.
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:55 am

CowAnon wrote:
The US could follow the Canadian example and let each state set its own immigration policy.


That would be an absolute disaster. Back to slave patrols? Why would North Dakota or Alaska need to have a voice about Venezuelan immigrants? No, we need a national border patrol, like we have now. And, again, we do not have "open borders". This is just a MAGA dog whistle. No one but no one to the left of MAGAs is wanting "open borders" but it plays in Peoria, as they said in the olden days. It gins up the base.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:07 am

william wrote:
Being from Texas, one knows many who are "undocumented". I remember a conversation with one who stated they did not want to stay in the US but work and take their money back home at the time Mexico. One cannot legally get a visa from Mexico because of government bureaucracy, and plan ineptitude. So you want a place to start, start with these inept governments and come up with a global Visa that will allow the transfer of money (wealth) back home. Tax the underground economy as it stands.

An interesting idea from an undocumented worker.


There was previously a 'bracero' program until the mid-1960s, though it was an imperfect solution to what was already acknowledged as a pretty permanent demand on the US side:

https://uncpressblog.com/2017/04/05/mir ... ed-states/
 
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NIKV69
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:06 am

Newark727 wrote:
That's not what he said. (Also ignores the existence of California.)


Isn't the majority of this influx coming through the Rio Grande?
 
jetwet1
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:57 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Glad to see Texas and Florida boldly stepping up to the challenge of illegal immigration by making it somebody else's problem.


Except they bodily stepped up and took people who are for now legal immigrants.
 
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c933103
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:11 pm

casinterest wrote:
The migrant issue is due to the US's lack of ability to work with our neighbors to build them up. As long as we blame our neighbors, they can point at the evil US to take advantage of their populations, resulting in people needing to leave bad conditions.

Countries in the world don't exactly have ability to build another country up. International aid to developing countries have been a thing for years but many poor countries remain relatively poor and only few succeeded. What set them apart? Environment that can attract investors to come and stay. One need to have a whole system, law, government, and governing structure to work this out. Hence the only way to make a country become better in this aspect is to forcefully change their governing structure. But US have proved to be lacking both the will and also the ability to carry out necessary changes even though US itself is comparatively successful in itself.
So this isn't a way that can work to fix people trying to immigrate.

Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The migrant issue is due to the US's lack of ability to work with our neighbors to build them up. As long as we blame our neighbors, they can point at the evil US to take advantage of their populations, resulting in people needing to leave bad conditions.

Countries in the world don't exactly have ability to build another country up. International aid to developing countries have been a thing for years but many poor countries remain relatively poor and only few succeeded. What set them apart? Environment that can attract investors to come and stay. One need to have a whole system, law, government, and governing structure to work this out. Hence the only way to make a country become better in this aspect is to forcefully change their governing structure. But US have proved to be lacking both the will and also the ability to carry out necessary changes even though US itself is comparatively successful in itself.
So this isn't a way that can work to fix people trying to immigrate.

Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.


I think you mean 'migration' in the last sentence, but you are correct.

Using Mexico as an example to what you posted, the US had a few opportunities to force through a better governing structure in Mexico post-WW2, but it was ultimately too convenient to continue propping up the hopelessly corrupt PRI because they were useful in maintaining a regional anti-Soviet bloc. Like many Cold War goings-on in Latin America, this had some good economic impacts at times, but resulted in a governing system based on corruption and patronage rather than democracy or meritocracy. The PRI was not above state-sanctioned killings for decades and opened fire on workaday Mexicans a number of times until the US got serious about that being bad optics in the 1960s.
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:51 am

c933103 wrote:
Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.


I am curious:

why would the federal government tell us that we can't move to one place or another? Isn't that another example of big government? Housing prices are going up, regardless. Banks and investors will get as much money as they can, at our expense. It is not a "domestic immigration" issue, but, rather greed.
 
ltbewr
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:00 am

Many 'sanctuary' cities and states,like in my home area of Northern New Jersey, already have already taken in millions of persons and taxpayers have to provide services by Federal Law to them who illegally entered or reside in the USA, not just from Mexico, Central and South America, but many other places.Texas and Florida are very harsh on helping the poor to hold down or not have income or other unpopular taxes.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:10 pm

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.


I am curious:

why would the federal government tell us that we can't move to one place or another? Isn't that another example of big government? Housing prices are going up, regardless. Banks and investors will get as much money as they can, at our expense. It is not a "domestic immigration" issue, but, rather greed.


This person was talking about China’s “hukou” system where you must bribe your local Party dignitary to get a certificate that allows you to move and have access to public services like schools and healthcare in a new region. Yes, what the Us has by comparison is an Ayn Rand fantasy of no government involvement at all. No rules, no laws about immigration. No protection for local workers. So, it is fair to point out the Us has an ultra libertarian migration system and China an ultra controlled one.
 
phluser
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:51 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Putin's implementation of a draft is causing a large exodus from Russia. If he nukes Ukraine, expect pretty much the whole population of that country to be on the move.

And while this is happening, the US Federal Reserve is most likely going to spark a deep downturn in our economy. This will impact the economies of the rest of the Western Hemisphere most likely causing more migration north.

We (the US) better come up with plan and soon. It should be the number one priority of the US government outside of stopping nuclear war with Russia.


Not sure what the Russia solution would be at the moment. It appears Russians in Moscow are still living a comfortable life and western sanctions haven't caused them to challenge their leadership. If the West could succeed in getting India/Modi to deepen ties while limiting it to Russia, it might help.

Majority of the migrants through the border that are seeking asylum are from Venezuala. The US has no formal diplomatic ties to Venezuala while Russia has strong ties, and US can't send the any of the migrants back there. Their leader is a dictator but at least not one that is invading another country. Maybe a solution would be improving ties to Venezuala even though it has a corrupt dictator.

I find it strange that conservative Cuban Hispanics and even some conservative Asians like to point out that they believe in immigration-legal immigration, but ignore asylum from immigrants of other countries.

Their conditions (from 40 plus years ago) to become legal was rather easy.
 
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c933103
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:15 am

LCDFlight wrote:
This person was talking about China’s “hukou” system where you must bribe your local Party dignitary to get a certificate that allows you to move and have access to public services like schools and healthcare in a new region. Yes, what the Us has by comparison is an Ayn Rand fantasy of no government involvement at all. No rules, no laws about immigration. No protection for local workers. So, it is fair to point out the Us has an ultra libertarian migration system and China an ultra controlled one.

No
As it have been identified in previous reply, people want to move to richer place, like from Latin America to the US, for economic opportunity.
The same is causing population in interior US to move to big cities mostly along the coast, and also similar situation in many other countries, including in China even with the Hukou system still unable to prevent people from making such move.
So the failure here refer to failure to develop those area that underperform in economy.

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.


I am curious:

why would the federal government tell us that we can't move to one place or another? Isn't that another example of big government? Housing prices are going up, regardless. Banks and investors will get as much money as they can, at our expense. It is not a "domestic immigration" issue, but, rather greed.

See above on reason, as it was previously said the US keep attracting people into inside its border, big cities in the US are doing the same to rest of the US.
Housing price go up is a product of this, no matter what you think of the population movement trend.
"Greed" is in no way a factor of this, unless you want to claim people trying to improve their own life is greedy.
There are people moving into big cities and their metropolitan area, but these places aren't providing enough housing, is the single most dominant reason behind the rise in housing price.
This is what happen when anything are in short supply.
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:44 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.


I am curious:

why would the federal government tell us that we can't move to one place or another? Isn't that another example of big government? Housing prices are going up, regardless. Banks and investors will get as much money as they can, at our expense. It is not a "domestic immigration" issue, but, rather greed.

See above on reason, as it was previously said the US keep attracting people into inside its border, big cities in the US are doing the same to rest of the US.
Housing price go up is a product of this, no matter what you think of the population movement trend.
"Greed" is in no way a factor of this, unless you want to claim people trying to improve their own life is greedy.
There are people moving into big cities and their metropolitan area, but these places aren't providing enough housing, is the single most dominant reason behind the rise in housing price.
This is what happen when anything are in short supply.


But... we can see housing costs and... somehow... still migrate to the high cost areas? Is this your premise? Because there is not enough housing in cities, people are going to cities?
 
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seb146
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:48 am

ltbewr wrote:
Many 'sanctuary' cities and states,like in my home area of Northern New Jersey, already have already taken in millions of persons and taxpayers have to provide services by Federal Law to them who illegally entered or reside in the USA, not just from Mexico, Central and South America, but many other places.Texas and Florida are very harsh on helping the poor to hold down or not have income or other unpopular taxes.


Literally none of that is true. If it were, you would provide proof. It is not true. Not one word. People show up in one place, have nothing, and demand food. People in Venezuela and Honduras and Guatemala and Mexico do not sit on their sofas and read the paper and do research for days seeing what states in the United States provide more food stamps and Section 8 than others. Immigrants are fleeing poverty and violence. Not just wanting free stuff. I know that does not fit the narrative, but do some research. Look at the economy of these nations and why people are fleeing them. Look at the climate change in these countries and see why people are fleeing them. Don't just make sweeping generalizations.
 
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c933103
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:37 am

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I am curious:

why would the federal government tell us that we can't move to one place or another? Isn't that another example of big government? Housing prices are going up, regardless. Banks and investors will get as much money as they can, at our expense. It is not a "domestic immigration" issue, but, rather greed.

See above on reason, as it was previously said the US keep attracting people into inside its border, big cities in the US are doing the same to rest of the US.
Housing price go up is a product of this, no matter what you think of the population movement trend.
"Greed" is in no way a factor of this, unless you want to claim people trying to improve their own life is greedy.
There are people moving into big cities and their metropolitan area, but these places aren't providing enough housing, is the single most dominant reason behind the rise in housing price.
This is what happen when anything are in short supply.


But... we can see housing costs and... somehow... still migrate to the high cost areas? Is this your premise? Because there is not enough housing in cities, people are going to cities?

Cities still have more opportunity, both in term of academic, occupational, social, and all other aspects.
Ask people around you who did similar move on why they made their choice if you want further in depth understanding.
Likewise, American society have many negatives including but not limited to housing cost, yet many people from all around the world including especially Latin America are still very eager to move into the US due to its other features being very attractive to people of the world that can outweigh these negatives.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:27 pm

Just so folks from outside the US know, alot of the US outside of the coastal cities are growing rapidly.
In my State, the area around the city of Columbus is absolutely booming. Even here in industrial northeast Ohio (Cleveland area), homes and apartments are being built like crazy

Housing (rent and home prices) prices have probably doubled in Ohio in the last 5 or 6 years. I posted before that the US tax code and literally free money from the Federal Reserve has played a much bigger role in the inflation of hard assets like housing. Not migration.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:06 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The migrant issue is due to the US's lack of ability to work with our neighbors to build them up. As long as we blame our neighbors, they can point at the evil US to take advantage of their populations, resulting in people needing to leave bad conditions.

Countries in the world don't exactly have ability to build another country up. International aid to developing countries have been a thing for years but many poor countries remain relatively poor and only few succeeded. What set them apart? Environment that can attract investors to come and stay. One need to have a whole system, law, government, and governing structure to work this out. Hence the only way to make a country become better in this aspect is to forcefully change their governing structure. But US have proved to be lacking both the will and also the ability to carry out necessary changes even though US itself is comparatively successful in itself.
So this isn't a way that can work to fix people trying to immigrate.

Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.


I think you mean 'migration' in the last sentence, but you are correct.

Using Mexico as an example to what you posted, the US had a few opportunities to force through a better governing structure in Mexico post-WW2, but it was ultimately too convenient to continue propping up the hopelessly corrupt PRI because they were useful in maintaining a regional anti-Soviet bloc. Like many Cold War goings-on in Latin America, this had some good economic impacts at times, but resulted in a governing system based on corruption and patronage rather than democracy or meritocracy. The PRI was not above state-sanctioned killings for decades and opened fire on workaday Mexicans a number of times until the US got serious about that being bad optics in the 1960s.



There is a mistake in taking building up your neighbor to mean bullying instead of working towards common goals. Mexico being on the southern border needs to have negotiations with the US on the handlinh of Asylum cases. If people are fleeing central and southern America, we need processes in place to work with Mexico on how to facilitate their asylum in Mexico first and foremost.
There has to be work in the UN to make countries more accountable world wide for persecution of their citizens and others, that cause these issues.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24975
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:16 pm

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:

See above on reason, as it was previously said the US keep attracting people into inside its border, big cities in the US are doing the same to rest of the US.
Housing price go up is a product of this, no matter what you think of the population movement trend.
"Greed" is in no way a factor of this, unless you want to claim people trying to improve their own life is greedy.
There are people moving into big cities and their metropolitan area, but these places aren't providing enough housing, is the single most dominant reason behind the rise in housing price.
This is what happen when anything are in short supply.


But... we can see housing costs and... somehow... still migrate to the high cost areas? Is this your premise? Because there is not enough housing in cities, people are going to cities?

Cities still have more opportunity, both in term of academic, occupational, social, and all other aspects.
Ask people around you who did similar move on why they made their choice if you want further in depth understanding.
Likewise, American society have many negatives including but not limited to housing cost, yet many people from all around the world including especially Latin America are still very eager to move into the US due to its other features being very attractive to people of the world that can outweigh these negatives.


You started with domestic migration and people feeing cities but pivot to international migration and people fleeing toward cities. Thank you for getting back on topic.

These legal immigrants, like the ones DeSantis used for props but were, ultimately, trafficked for his own game, would rather be in cities where they have better access to people who speak their own language and less chance of being threatened. Also, yes, if they are accepted into the United States as asylum seekers, they have better opportunities for work and education. More open minded in cities. Cities are safer for immigrants and "liberals" for many, many reasons.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:39 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Countries in the world don't exactly have ability to build another country up. International aid to developing countries have been a thing for years but many poor countries remain relatively poor and only few succeeded. What set them apart? Environment that can attract investors to come and stay. One need to have a whole system, law, government, and governing structure to work this out. Hence the only way to make a country become better in this aspect is to forcefully change their governing structure. But US have proved to be lacking both the will and also the ability to carry out necessary changes even though US itself is comparatively successful in itself.
So this isn't a way that can work to fix people trying to immigrate.

Not to mention US cannot even do anything about domestic immigration into big cities and their impact on housing demand and thus housing price.


I think you mean 'migration' in the last sentence, but you are correct.

Using Mexico as an example to what you posted, the US had a few opportunities to force through a better governing structure in Mexico post-WW2, but it was ultimately too convenient to continue propping up the hopelessly corrupt PRI because they were useful in maintaining a regional anti-Soviet bloc. Like many Cold War goings-on in Latin America, this had some good economic impacts at times, but resulted in a governing system based on corruption and patronage rather than democracy or meritocracy. The PRI was not above state-sanctioned killings for decades and opened fire on workaday Mexicans a number of times until the US got serious about that being bad optics in the 1960s.



There is a mistake in taking building up your neighbor to mean bullying instead of working towards common goals. Mexico being on the southern border needs to have negotiations with the US on the handlinh of Asylum cases. If people are fleeing central and southern America, we need processes in place to work with Mexico on how to facilitate their asylum in Mexico first and foremost.
There has to be work in the UN to make countries more accountable world wide for persecution of their citizens and others, that cause these issues.


The idea is that Mexico as a case study is complicated politically, and one reason is US interference in unhelpful ways. Also it is hard to seriously expect UN progress on accountability when PRC and Russia are permanent security council members with veto voting rights.
 
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c933103
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:43 pm

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But... we can see housing costs and... somehow... still migrate to the high cost areas? Is this your premise? Because there is not enough housing in cities, people are going to cities?

Cities still have more opportunity, both in term of academic, occupational, social, and all other aspects.
Ask people around you who did similar move on why they made their choice if you want further in depth understanding.
Likewise, American society have many negatives including but not limited to housing cost, yet many people from all around the world including especially Latin America are still very eager to move into the US due to its other features being very attractive to people of the world that can outweigh these negatives.


You started with domestic migration and people feeing cities but pivot to international migration and people fleeing toward cities. Thank you for getting back on topic.

These legal immigrants, like the ones DeSantis used for props but were, ultimately, trafficked for his own game, would rather be in cities where they have better access to people who speak their own language and less chance of being threatened. Also, yes, if they are accepted into the United States as asylum seekers, they have better opportunities for work and education. More open minded in cities. Cities are safer for immigrants and "liberals" for many, many reasons.

I am talking about people moving into cities, and into bigger cities, both when I am talking about domestic and international migration. Maybe my wording wasn't clear enough and caused misunderstanding
 
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c933103
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:38 am

casinterest wrote:
There is a mistake in taking building up your neighbor to mean bullying instead of working towards common goals. Mexico being on the southern border needs to have negotiations with the US on the handlinh of Asylum cases. If people are fleeing central and southern America, we need processes in place to work with Mexico on how to facilitate their asylum in Mexico first and foremost.
There has to be work in the UN to make countries more accountable world wide for persecution of their citizens and others, that cause these issues.

UN cannot be a global government because first and foremost job of UN is to prevent conflicts. Before WWII the League of Nations tried to stop its member countries from acting badly and the result was those countries simply quitting such international organization.
Unless other countries are prepared to use military response against countries that acted badly, I cannot see that changing
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:43 am

c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
There is a mistake in taking building up your neighbor to mean bullying instead of working towards common goals. Mexico being on the southern border needs to have negotiations with the US on the handlinh of Asylum cases. If people are fleeing central and southern America, we need processes in place to work with Mexico on how to facilitate their asylum in Mexico first and foremost.
There has to be work in the UN to make countries more accountable world wide for persecution of their citizens and others, that cause these issues.

UN cannot be a global government because first and foremost job of UN is to prevent conflicts. Before WWII the League of Nations tried to stop its member countries from acting badly and the result was those countries simply quitting such international organization.
Unless other countries are prepared to use military response against countries that acted badly, I cannot see that changing

It isn't about Global Government. The purpose of the UN is to work with nations to be effective together to avoid critical issues. However mass migration due to internal strife and inhumane actions is under the purview of the UN. The UN applies pressure as needed and no country wants to be out of the UN. It leaves them isolated and without industry.
 
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c933103
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:33 am

casinterest wrote:
c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
There is a mistake in taking building up your neighbor to mean bullying instead of working towards common goals. Mexico being on the southern border needs to have negotiations with the US on the handlinh of Asylum cases. If people are fleeing central and southern America, we need processes in place to work with Mexico on how to facilitate their asylum in Mexico first and foremost.
There has to be work in the UN to make countries more accountable world wide for persecution of their citizens and others, that cause these issues.

UN cannot be a global government because first and foremost job of UN is to prevent conflicts. Before WWII the League of Nations tried to stop its member countries from acting badly and the result was those countries simply quitting such international organization.
Unless other countries are prepared to use military response against countries that acted badly, I cannot see that changing

It isn't about Global Government. The purpose of the UN is to work with nations to be effective together to avoid critical issues. However mass migration due to internal strife and inhumane actions is under the purview of the UN. The UN applies pressure as needed and no country wants to be out of the UN. It leaves them isolated and without industry.

First, dictators think it is their right to enact internal strife and inhumane action within their own countries.
Second, you see countries like North Korea and Venezuela being sanctioned internationally yet still didn't change what they are doing. Reflect that they care more about their own benefits and power rather than international trade or domestic development.
Third, not inside UN does not kill a country. Like for example Taiwan, Kosovo, Somaliland, Palestine, and so on, they all continues to be in their way.
Fourth, number of countries supporting liberty amd democracy in the UN is not majority. Actions in the UN Human Right Council in the past year highlighted the situation. So if UN get to exert pressure on countries, the type of pressure might be opposite of what most have hoped.
 
pune
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:54 am

c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
c933103 wrote:
UN cannot be a global government because first and foremost job of UN is to prevent conflicts. Before WWII the League of Nations tried to stop its member countries from acting badly and the result was those countries simply quitting such international organization.
Unless other countries are prepared to use military response against countries that acted badly, I cannot see that changing

It isn't about Global Government. The purpose of the UN is to work with nations to be effective together to avoid critical issues. However mass migration due to internal strife and inhumane actions is under the purview of the UN. The UN applies pressure as needed and no country wants to be out of the UN. It leaves them isolated and without industry.

First, dictators think it is their right to enact internal strife and inhumane action within their own countries.
Second, you see countries like North Korea and Venezuela being sanctioned internationally yet still didn't change what they are doing. Reflect that they care more about their own benefits and power rather than international trade or domestic development.
Third, not inside UN does not kill a country. Like for example Taiwan, Kosovo, Somaliland, Palestine, and so on, they all continues to be in their way.
Fourth, number of countries supporting liberty amd democracy in the UN is not majority. Actions in the UN Human Right Council in the past year highlighted the situation. So if UN get to exert pressure on countries, the type of pressure might be opposite of what most have hoped.



You forgot Iran, Saudi Arabia, the list goes on and on. Last 8-10 years even India has become more right-leaning and pivoting to extreme right. And countries like China who use their money to shut UN, IMF you name it. It is also what the U.S. did in early and then late 19th century. Even in 1980s it was the same thing.
 
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casinterest
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:48 pm

pune wrote:
c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It isn't about Global Government. The purpose of the UN is to work with nations to be effective together to avoid critical issues. However mass migration due to internal strife and inhumane actions is under the purview of the UN. The UN applies pressure as needed and no country wants to be out of the UN. It leaves them isolated and without industry.

First, dictators think it is their right to enact internal strife and inhumane action within their own countries.
Second, you see countries like North Korea and Venezuela being sanctioned internationally yet still didn't change what they are doing. Reflect that they care more about their own benefits and power rather than international trade or domestic development.
Third, not inside UN does not kill a country. Like for example Taiwan, Kosovo, Somaliland, Palestine, and so on, they all continues to be in their way.
Fourth, number of countries supporting liberty amd democracy in the UN is not majority. Actions in the UN Human Right Council in the past year highlighted the situation. So if UN get to exert pressure on countries, the type of pressure might be opposite of what most have hoped.



You forgot Iran, Saudi Arabia, the list goes on and on. Last 8-10 years even India has become more right-leaning and pivoting to extreme right. And countries like China who use their money to shut UN, IMF you name it. It is also what the U.S. did in early and then late 19th century. Even in 1980s it was the same thing.



The more right leaning these cultures become the more inhumane they will become as well. The unfortunate outcome will be war. Remember North Korea still believes it is at war, and India will probably get worse in it's behaviors with disputed territories under far right leadership. Far right leadership tends to be very Authoritarian, and generally hypocritical. The same far right leaders that gripe about immigrants, need them to keep the costs down. So without the UN working to broker conversations between these countries, they tend to move off to their own worst tendencies.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: ‘Sanctuary’ cities navigate migrant influx from GOP states

Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:50 pm

Living near a sanctuary city, we're flooded with an influx of people. The system is overwhelmed. There is no way to keep up with the number of people, in my opinion.

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