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Avatar2go
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Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:37 am

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton fled a process server who tried to serve two subpoenas, for him to testify in an abortion rights lawsuit challenging the restriction of rights to travel out of state for medical care.

Paxton then filed a motion to quash, saying the subpoenas had been improperly served, and that his position makes him immune from compelled testimony. The judge granted the quash.

Later Paxton stated that a threatening individual appeared on his property, and he fled for his own safety and that of his family.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/texas ... y/3082728/
 
bennett123
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:44 am

So how should a subpoena be served or is he beyond the law.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:33 am

bennett123 wrote:
So how should a subpoena be served or is he beyond the law.


All these guys operate by two sets of rules, one for them and one for everyone else. It's the characteristic that defines them. What's amazing is that they convince their supporters that they are looking out for others, and not for themselves. Exact opposite of the truth.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:01 am

Avatar2go wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So how should a subpoena be served or is he beyond the law.


All these guys operate by two sets of rules, one for them and one for everyone else. It's the characteristic that defines them. What's amazing is that they convince their supporters that they are looking out for others, and not for themselves. Exact opposite of the truth.


According to the reports I've seen, when confronted by the process server, Paxton returned to the house. Soon afterwards a vehicle emerged from the garage, with the passenger door open, driven by his wife. Paxton jumped in and the vehicle drove off. No mention has been made of any other members of the family. Can somebody explain how concern for the safety of his family requires sending out his wife first ?

In passing, let it be noted Paxton has not always been so quick to turn to the courts. He is under indictment for securities fraud from 7 ( yes that is seven ) years ago, shortly after he was first elected Attorney-General.

But this is the USA. Where everybody is equal under the law.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:05 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So how should a subpoena be served or is he beyond the law.


All these guys operate by two sets of rules, one for them and one for everyone else. It's the characteristic that defines them. What's amazing is that they convince their supporters that they are looking out for others, and not for themselves. Exact opposite of the truth.


I'm not defending this persons actions, I don't know what the subpoena is for and don't care to look it up, but this happens everyday with process servers. There are not two sets of rules, people all over the country do this crap everyday to avoid being served and things such as having cars repossessed. An elected official should be above this, but the court decision was because he wasn't properly served, that's it. The rule is the same for everyone.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:35 pm

bpatus297 wrote:

I'm not defending this persons actions, I don't know what the subpoena is for and don't care to look it up, but this happens everyday with process servers. There are not two sets of rules, people all over the country do this crap everyday to avoid being served and things such as having cars repossessed. An elected official should be above this, but the court decision was because he wasn't properly served, that's it. The rule is the same for everyone.


I would agree that he wasn't properly served. But normally that would not be grounds to quash the action being served. It would be a delaying tactic at best.

The other reason he cited is that he can't be compelled to testify, as sitting attorney general. I suspect that's why the judge quashed the subpoena. But if he knew that, why flee the server?

I think he fled because he's under several investigations, and doesn't know what's coming at him next. So in that sense, he is different than people who are trying to hold on to their possessions.

It also shows the conflict that results from his position. Technically, he is being served under his own authority as attorney general. So how does he refuse a server that is technically working for him?

That is the bizarre nature of his situation, that mystifies so many people. And why it's so different.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:55 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I'm not defending this persons actions, I don't know what the subpoena is for and don't care to look it up, but this happens everyday with process servers. There are not two sets of rules, people all over the country do this crap everyday to avoid being served and things such as having cars repossessed. An elected official should be above this, but the court decision was because he wasn't properly served, that's it. The rule is the same for everyone.


I would agree that he wasn't properly served. But normally that would not be grounds to quash the action being served. It would be a delaying tactic at best.

The other reason he cited is that he can't be compelled to testify, as sitting attorney general. I suspect that's why the judge quashed the subpoena. But if he knew that, why flee the server?

I think he fled because he's under several investigations, and doesn't know what's coming at him next. So in that sense, he is different than people who are trying to hold on to their possessions.

It also shows the conflict that results from his position. Technically, he is being served under his own authority as attorney general. So how does he refuse a server that is technically working for him?

That is the bizarre nature of his situation, that mystifies so many people. And why it's so different.



Maybe that is why the judge quashed it, I don't know. I didn't look into the decision, but I bet its public record if you really want to know the truth. Look for the court record, not a news story. I don't know, nor care why he did what he did. I was just pointing out that it's not different set of rules about being served. If there is a different set of rules about a sitting AG testifying and having the subpoena quashed, well that is for every AG of Texas, not just this guy. I also bet its not just the AG that would have that rule, and not just Texas.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:20 pm

Ken Paxton is a genuinely bad dude, like evil to his core. One of many embarrassments representing Texas.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:29 pm

Something I don't understand is this : each US state has laws that apply in that state. That makes sense (actually it doesn't, but I get it). But are US citizens, citizens of the state they live in ? How can a Texas law apply to you if you're not in Texas ?
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:38 pm

bpatus297 wrote:

Maybe that is why the judge quashed it, I don't know. I didn't look into the decision, but I bet its public record if you really want to know the truth. Look for the court record, not a news story. I don't know, nor care why he did what he did. I was just pointing out that it's not different set of rules about being served. If there is a different set of rules about a sitting AG testifying and having the subpoena quashed, well that is for every AG of Texas, not just this guy. I also bet its not just the AG that would have that rule, and not just Texas.


So again, the different set of rules is that an attorney general is fleeing a server from his own court system, then having the action quashed within his own court system.

I guarantee that you or I could not do the same. We might be able to flee a server, as you suggest. But probably could not quash a subpoena.

As an example, Georgia Senator Lyndsey Graham tried to quash his electoral fraud subpoena, on the same basis as a sitting elected official, but the judge only restricted his questioning. Same for Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, he got a delay until after the election, but will have to testify.

Notably, neither of them fled the server. They probably could not survive politically if they did.
Last edited by Avatar2go on Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
Something I don't understand is this : each US state has laws that apply in that state. That makes sense (actually it doesn't, but I get it). But are US citizens, citizens of the state they live in ? How can a Texas law apply to you if you're not in Texas ?


It doesn't, what Texas is trying to do is apply the law to residents of Texas when they travel to a different state.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:48 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
Ken Paxton is a genuinely bad dude, like evil to his core. One of many embarrassments representing Texas.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: His own staff has said so, and were all promptly turfed

All seven of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton's whistleblowers have resigned, been fired or put on leave
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/10/28 ... leblowers/
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:00 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
How can a Texas law apply to you if you're not in Texas ?


It doesn't, what Texas is trying to do is apply the law to residents of Texas when they travel to a different state.


Yes, the law would criminalize crossing the state border for the purpose of seeking abortion services.

Texas Senate Bill 8, passed last year and upheld by the US Supreme Court, also permits any person or entity, to sue any Texas citizen or Texas healthcare provider who solicits, participates, aids, or abets an abortion procedure. It creates a $10,000 reward for the person or entity that successfully prosecutes such a lawsuit.

By so doing, it removes the state as the enforcement agency, and instead pays citizens to perform enforcement through the civil, rather than criminal courts. It's effectively a bounty, and it evades constitutionality issues that arise for a state criminal action, but not for a citizen civil action.

These are the laws Ken Paxton has worked to create, even though 60% of Texans favor some form of legal abortion services.
 
bennett123
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:16 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I'm not defending this persons actions, I don't know what the subpoena is for and don't care to look it up, but this happens everyday with process servers. There are not two sets of rules, people all over the country do this crap everyday to avoid being served and things such as having cars repossessed. An elected official should be above this, but the court decision was because he wasn't properly served, that's it. The rule is the same for everyone.


I would agree that he wasn't properly served. But normally that would not be grounds to quash the action being served. It would be a delaying tactic at best.

The other reason he cited is that he can't be compelled to testify, as sitting attorney general. I suspect that's why the judge quashed the subpoena. But if he knew that, why flee the server?

I think he fled because he's under several investigations, and doesn't know what's coming at him next. So in that sense, he is different than people who are trying to hold on to their possessions.

It also shows the conflict that results from his position. Technically, he is being served under his own authority as attorney general. So how does he refuse a server that is technically working for him?

That is the bizarre nature of his situation, that mystifies so many people. And why it's so different.


Surely the fact that he resisted/evaded the attempt to serve the subpoena would prevent it being quashed.

A bit like police going to your house with an arrest warrant, you run out the back door and then are able to get the warrant cancelled.

Also does being Attorney General mean the law does not apply to him?.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:45 pm

It probably was a stretch by the federal class-action plaintiffs to subpoena an attorney general. But he should have accepted service and then dealt with it openly in court. Instead of trying to quash before service.

Here is an article that describes the lawsuit, the plaintiffs, and the defendants. They are seeking relief in the form of an injunction on the "trigger" law, House Bill 1280.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/08/23 ... as-travel/

Here is article that describes the hearing itself. States attorneys argue that HB1280 allows for civil and not criminal penalties, and that this gives Paxton broad discretion in pursuit of individual cases. They are saying plaintiffs need not worry, but admitted under questioning from the judge that they could prosecute if they chose.

Paxton is not yet in the clear, Judge Pittman is considering another request for subpoena.

https://www.rawstory.com/texas-ags-offi ... abortions/

In addition to SB8 and HB1280, which create civil penalties and enforcement to evade issues of constitutionality, there is a 1925 Texas law that criminalized those same activities. That law has been suspended during the Roe era, but was never removed, and Paxton has said he now considers it active again. Which means he could choose which law he intends to enforce, on case-by-case basis.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/18 ... -campaign/

Overall the intent of the state is to threaten and intimidate anyone who assists a Texas resident in obtaining an abortion, with both civil and criminal actions, while simultaneously claiming that they will use discretion and will not abuse those powers. Yet they have already sent warnings to various groups, threatening legal action.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:24 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Something I don't understand is this : each US state has laws that apply in that state. That makes sense (actually it doesn't, but I get it). But are US citizens, citizens of the state they live in ? How can a Texas law apply to you if you're not in Texas ?


It doesn't, what Texas is trying to do is apply the law to residents of Texas when they travel to a different state.


So Texas is treating these people as its own (citizens) even when they're somewhere else.

It's like if I was in Canada smoking pot and got a jail sentence for it here in France because here it's illegal. (yeah my example also works between US states, it's on purpose)
 
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seb146
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:51 am

No one wants to be served. It is not a legal thing, it is a human nature thing.

What were the papers being served?
 
bennett123
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:47 am

seb146 wrote:
No one wants to be served. It is not a legal thing, it is a human nature thing.

What were the papers being served?


No one wants to pay their taxes either.

Should we make it optional.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:41 am

seb146 wrote:
No one wants to be served. It is not a legal thing, it is a human nature thing.

What were the papers being served?


The service was of 2 subpoenas for testimony in the federal class-action lawsuit, asking for an injunction on HB1280, SB8, and other pre-Roe Texas laws. These laws give the state broad powers to prosecute anyone involved in providing abortion-related medical care to a Texas resident.

The plaintiffs claim that this could include anyone providing assistance to persons traveling to other states where abortion is still legal. That was a widespread practice prior to Roe. Texas has sought to block assistance by establishing criminal and civil penalties, for those assisting.

As AG, Paxton has argued on behalf of the state that the prosecution powers are subject to discretion, and won't be abused, rendering the injunction unnecessary. But under questioning from the judge, the state admitted they could prosecute if they chose.

The judge then questioned what constitutes discretion, how is it defined? Paxton was subpoenaed to testify before the court, how he would apply discretion. Those are the subpoenas he fled.

In a nutshell, Paxton is saying I won't use those powers, but I need them. Trust me. And then evading clarification on what that exactly means.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:02 am

Here is a more detailed account of what happened. Paxton and his office had been evading the service for several days.

Further plaintiff's counsel Myers was in contact with Paxton's office while the server waited outside Paxton's home, advising them that he was refusing service, and asking if they would accept. They also refused. So Paxton knew exactly what was being served.

“We repeatedly tried to avoid having to serve your client personally, which I agree would have been preferable,” Myers wrote. “Your staff and client necessitated this, and we even advised that he was evading service before it was ultimately completed, to avoid a result embarrassing to you and your client.”


https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/28 ... -subpoena/
 
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Aesma
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:38 am

Avatar2go wrote:
As AG, Paxton has argued on behalf of the state that the prosecution powers are subject to discretion, and won't be abused,


Let's say that's true. I don't know if it's the case for all US laws but I've read enough stories showing this is true for many. How can a justice system be just, if basically one man can decide that you have or haven't committed a crime, without even going to court ?

French people were widely exposed to this (aside from TV shows) with the DSK affair, when he "got away with it" thanks to an expensive lawyer and "credibility issues" on the part of the victim. Despite DNA evidence. I'm not saying he would have gotten 20 years in jail in France, but he would have had a trial and probably something like 5 years.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Paxton flees process server, then has subpoenas quashed

Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:23 am

Aesma wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
As AG, Paxton has argued on behalf of the state that the prosecution powers are subject to discretion, and won't be abused,


Let's say that's true. I don't know if it's the case for all US laws but I've read enough stories showing this is true for many. How can a justice system be just, if basically one man can decide that you have or haven't committed a crime, without even going to court ?


That's the issue when powers of the state become too broad. The threat of extreme prosecution, can be used in place of actual prosecution, through the mechanism of intimidation. That effectively removes review by the courts, and shifts authority to the prosecutor.

This is the current status of the abortion support organizations in Texas. They have ceased support because there are multiple laws that could be invoked against them, both civil and criminal. So they have asked the court for an injunction to remove that threat of intimidation, while providing their assistance services.

That's why the judge has asked Paxton to clarify his discretion, and why he was subpoenaed to testify as to how he would apply it. All of which is frankly avoided by the legislature passing fair & balanced laws.

It's notable that the organizations are not challenging the abortion ban in this action. Only the right of the state to restrict their assistance to Texas residents.

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