From today's thread somebody had shared -

https://www.statista.com/statistics/298 ... ending-uk/

If one looks at the graph, the last time any good funding was done was in 2010 . Now if you look at the funding done from last to this year the "growth" is a measly 4% but they haven't taken inflation into account. If the inflation is taken into account which I gather is 12.5% then it represents a cut in education spending and not growth as people have been trying to share.

In fact, education spending seems to have been lagged for the last 12/13 years. Really, a sad state of affairs

With inflation taken into account, which part of UK government spending have grown relative to inflation?

c933103 wrote:

With inflation taken into account, which part of UK government spending have grown relative to inflation?

In an ideal world, spending should have gone up, that means more people are educated and make better choices. If funding is cut wherever, that means people's choices are reduced and they are becoming poorer and poorer, it is as simple as that. That is also the reason that both nurses and railway personnel are striking. You need good working conditions and decent pay staff. If you don't then they will be forced to leave the industry and sometimes even the country. I think there is staffing crisis in the UK in both the places and getting new people in from abroad won't be easy. You just can't replace x with y even though it may seem to be as easy as that.

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

With inflation taken into account, which part of UK government spending have grown relative to inflation?

In an ideal world, spending should have gone up, that means more people are educated and make better choices. If funding is cut wherever, that means people's choices are reduced and they are becoming poorer and poorer, it is as simple as that. That is also the reason that both nurses and railway personnel are striking. You need good working conditions and decent pay staff. If you don't then they will be forced to leave the industry and sometimes even the country. I think there is staffing crisis in the UK in both the places and getting new people in from abroad won't be easy. You just can't replace x with y even though it may seem to be as easy as that.

being outpaced by inflation ins't exactly same as it is "cut".
Also I am asking about components or shares of entire budget.
And I am not sure about how difficulty in hiring airport staff now have to do with education spending, wouldn't the most significant difficulty here being UK now being outside European labor market.

Hardly surprising. A well educated population is harder to control, it’s far easier to manage a dumb populace.

sadly the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government of 2010-2015 had to cut the budget after years of overspending from the Labour party.

Arion640 wrote:

sadly the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government of 2010-2015 had to cut the budget after years of overspending from the Labour party.

The statistics show that spending was cut from 2010 onwards, dunno how you came to 2015-16. Look at the first link I had shared. From then on, it has pretty much downhill. Now please let me know if after 2010 you had deflation in prices, if not then the above would hold true. And I suspect, this is for everything. And as somebody shared, it is easier to keep fooling people if they are not educated. A statement grounded in facts. That is the reason education is needed, so that critical reasoning can be developed. You can use facts, make a theory and see where the evidence or facts lead you, as simple as that.

pune wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

sadly the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government of 2010-2015 had to cut the budget after years of overspending from the Labour party.

The statistics show that spending was cut from 2010 onwards, dunno how you came to 2015-16. Look at the first link I had shared. From then on, it has pretty much downhill. Now please let me know if after 2010 you had deflation in prices, if not then the above would hold true. And I suspect, this is for everything. And as somebody shared, it is easier to keep fooling people if they are not educated. A statement grounded in facts. That is the reason education is needed, so that critical reasoning can be developed. You can use facts, make a theory and see where the evidence or facts lead you, as simple as that.

Not sure where 2015-16 came from. The budget went down from 2010 after the government of the time had to make difficult choices to address a huge deficit inherited from the labour government.

Governments don’t do these things for fun, you know. And magic socialist money trees don’t exist either.

Arion640 wrote:

sadly the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government of 2010-2015 had to cut the budget after years of overspending from the Labour party.

But they also allowed schools to sell of sports fields and recreational facilities which was a big mistake. No kids don’t have anywhere to play in many schools.

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

With inflation taken into account, which part of UK government spending have grown relative to inflation?

In an ideal world, spending should have gone up, that means more people are educated and make better choices. If funding is cut wherever, that means people's choices are reduced and they are becoming poorer and poorer, it is as simple as that. That is also the reason that both nurses and railway personnel are striking. You need good working conditions and decent pay staff. If you don't then they will be forced to leave the industry and sometimes even the country. I think there is staffing crisis in the UK in both the places and getting new people in from abroad won't be easy. You just can't replace x with y even though it may seem to be as easy as that.

This is such bad logic. There is such a thing as learning to be more efficient and effective in education and achieving even more with less funding. History is replete of examples of governments expanding administrative positions within departments and those yielding little to no benefit at all to students.

Someone’s this is purely out of a poor idea or poorly implemented idea, but sometimes it’s electoral politics: making civil servants and unions happy, which in turn yields votes for politicians. In democracies, for politicians, the vote is currency.

Kiwirob wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

sadly the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government of 2010-2015 had to cut the budget after years of overspending from the Labour party.

But they also allowed schools to sell of sports fields and recreational facilities which was a big mistake. No kids don’t have anywhere to play in many schools.

And that’s not right either.

pune wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

sadly the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government of 2010-2015 had to cut the budget after years of overspending from the Labour party.

The statistics show that spending was cut from 2010 onwards, dunno how you came to 2015-16. Look at the first link I had shared. From then on, it has pretty much downhill. Now please let me know if after 2010 you had deflation in prices, if not then the above would hold true. And I suspect, this is for everything. And as somebody shared, it is easier to keep fooling people if they are not educated. A statement grounded in facts. That is the reason education is needed, so that critical reasoning can be developed. You can use facts, make a theory and see where the evidence or facts lead you, as simple as that.

The overspending is BS, easy to check too, since between 1997-2010 the government spending as a portion of GDP was similar to between 1979-97.
It went, a lot of it, to different areas, there was a surge as irresponsible ‘Masters Of The Universe’ crashed the banking system, these events are contagious and several major banks had to be bailed out.
The Tories in opposition had urged even more deregulation of this sector though they shut their mouths about that after 2008, I can, if you like, go find the quotes from Shadow Chancellor Osbourne.

How to get away with it? Having 80% of the print media being essentially client press for them helps, those offshore billionaires who own them want what they want.
Besides, they never fixed the deficit, not when they said by or after, it has been called the largest transfer of wealth to the super rich in modern times, the result was devastating for public services, (including police, half the stations shut mostly in areas where they are most needed, the legal system and defence), infrastructure, the two former have not only caused a surge in crime but the the legal system is so slashed, courts so backed up, crimes like rape are now virtually legal as the conviction rate is 1%, pre DNA and other policing and forensic technology 40 years ago, it was around 40%

Education was always going to be slashed by them, when the Cabinet and Tory MPs overwhelmingly go to Private Schools, (hilariously registered as ‘charities’) as opposed to 93% of the school population.

PPVRA wrote:

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

With inflation taken into account, which part of UK government spending have grown relative to inflation?

In an ideal world, spending should have gone up, that means more people are educated and make better choices. If funding is cut wherever, that means people's choices are reduced and they are becoming poorer and poorer, it is as simple as that. That is also the reason that both nurses and railway personnel are striking. You need good working conditions and decent pay staff. If you don't then they will be forced to leave the industry and sometimes even the country. I think there is staffing crisis in the UK in both the places and getting new people in from abroad won't be easy. You just can't replace x with y even though it may seem to be as easy as that.

This is such bad logic. There is such a thing as learning to be more efficient and effective in education and achieving even more with less funding. History is replete of examples of governments expanding administrative positions within departments and those yielding little to no benefit at all to students.

Someone’s this is purely out of a poor idea or poorly implemented idea, but sometimes it’s electoral politics: making civil servants and unions happy, which in turn yields votes for politicians. In democracies, for politicians, the vote is currency.

If it was so, then Singapore wouldn't have been where it is. That is what UK wants to be or wanted to be. AFAIK, teachers in Singapore are paid the highest.

https://uban.motoretta.ca/asia/what-do- ... singapore/

Please don't drag history, be with the present. Even China has started paying their teachers well and pension - They realized that they weren't unlocking their teacher's true potential and around 1985 they started hiking teacher's salaries -

http://www.china.org.cn/english/1696.htm

I am sharing comparable ideas and data to counter this that you could teach more with less.

Even African countries are raising their education budgets -

https://allafrica.com/stories/202208310113.html

Let me ask you another question, does your underestanding applies to all or just education? Should bankers get more bonuses or less ? 2008 is an indicator but that probably would need a thread of its own.

pune wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

pune wrote:

In an ideal world, spending should have gone up, that means more people are educated and make better choices. If funding is cut wherever, that means people's choices are reduced and they are becoming poorer and poorer, it is as simple as that. That is also the reason that both nurses and railway personnel are striking. You need good working conditions and decent pay staff. If you don't then they will be forced to leave the industry and sometimes even the country. I think there is staffing crisis in the UK in both the places and getting new people in from abroad won't be easy. You just can't replace x with y even though it may seem to be as easy as that.

This is such bad logic. There is such a thing as learning to be more efficient and effective in education and achieving even more with less funding. History is replete of examples of governments expanding administrative positions within departments and those yielding little to no benefit at all to students.

Someone’s this is purely out of a poor idea or poorly implemented idea, but sometimes it’s electoral politics: making civil servants and unions happy, which in turn yields votes for politicians. In democracies, for politicians, the vote is currency.

If it was so, then Singapore wouldn't have been where it is. That is what UK wants to be or wanted to be. AFAIK, teachers in Singapore are paid the highest.

https://uban.motoretta.ca/asia/what-do- ... singapore/

Please don't drag history, be with the present. Even China has started paying their teachers well and pension - They realized that they weren't unlocking their teacher's true potential and around 1985 they started hiking teacher's salaries -

http://www.china.org.cn/english/1696.htm

I am sharing comparable ideas and data to counter this that you could teach more with less.

Even African countries are raising their education budgets -

https://allafrica.com/stories/202208310113.html

Let me ask you another question, does your underestanding applies to all or just education? Should bankers get more bonuses or less ? 2008 is an indicator but that probably would need a thread of its own.

According to https://www.zhihu.com/question/59291867?utm_id=0 , salary of teachers in Wuhan of China are about 10,000-20,000 USD per year, after including all bonuses and benefits for them.

GDB wrote:

pune wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

sadly the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government of 2010-2015 had to cut the budget after years of overspending from the Labour party.

The statistics show that spending was cut from 2010 onwards, dunno how you came to 2015-16. Look at the first link I had shared. From then on, it has pretty much downhill. Now please let me know if after 2010 you had deflation in prices, if not then the above would hold true. And I suspect, this is for everything. And as somebody shared, it is easier to keep fooling people if they are not educated. A statement grounded in facts. That is the reason education is needed, so that critical reasoning can be developed. You can use facts, make a theory and see where the evidence or facts lead you, as simple as that.

The overspending is BS, easy to check too, since between 1997-2010 the government spending as a portion of GDP was similar to between 1979-97.
It went, a lot of it, to different areas, there was a surge as irresponsible ‘Masters Of The Universe’ crashed the banking system, these events are contagious and several major banks had to be bailed out.
The Tories in opposition had urged even more deregulation of this sector though they shut their mouths about that after 2008, I can, if you like, go find the quotes from Shadow Chancellor Osbourne.

How to get away with it? Having 80% of the print media being essentially client press for them helps, those offshore billionaires who own them want what they want.
Besides, they never fixed the deficit, not when they said by or after, it has been called the largest transfer of wealth to the super rich in modern times, the result was devastating for public services, (including police, half the stations shut mostly in areas where they are most needed, the legal system and defence), infrastructure, the two former have not only caused a surge in crime but the the legal system is so slashed, courts so backed up, crimes like rape are now virtually legal as the conviction rate is 1%, pre DNA and other policing and forensic technology 40 years ago, it was around 40%

Education was always going to be slashed by them, when the Cabinet and Tory MPs overwhelmingly go to Private Schools, (hilariously registered as ‘charities’) as opposed to 93% of the school population.

The fact that there are people believe in some sort of evil mastermind controlling the world's system clearly shown the need of better education system.

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

This is such bad logic. There is such a thing as learning to be more efficient and effective in education and achieving even more with less funding. History is replete of examples of governments expanding administrative positions within departments and those yielding little to no benefit at all to students.

Someone’s this is purely out of a poor idea or poorly implemented idea, but sometimes it’s electoral politics: making civil servants and unions happy, which in turn yields votes for politicians. In democracies, for politicians, the vote is currency.

If it was so, then Singapore wouldn't have been where it is. That is what UK wants to be or wanted to be. AFAIK, teachers in Singapore are paid the highest.

https://uban.motoretta.ca/asia/what-do- ... singapore/

Please don't drag history, be with the present. Even China has started paying their teachers well and pension - They realized that they weren't unlocking their teacher's true potential and around 1985 they started hiking teacher's salaries -

http://www.china.org.cn/english/1696.htm

I am sharing comparable ideas and data to counter this that you could teach more with less.

Even African countries are raising their education budgets -

https://allafrica.com/stories/202208310113.html

Let me ask you another question, does your underestanding applies to all or just education? Should bankers get more bonuses or less ? 2008 is an indicator but that probably would need a thread of its own.

According to https://www.zhihu.com/question/59291867?utm_id=0 , salary of teachers in Wuhan of China are about 10,000-20,000 USD per year, after including all bonuses and benefits for them.

I do not know Chinese but you can see this as you quoted Wuhan, dunno why you used that as a benchmark but whatever.

https://eslauthority.com/teach/china/salary/

So as can be seen it varies, there is a lot of band gap even in Wuhan, there are lot of variations on that. In fact, that webpage lists all the different ways one can expect to make money as a teacher in China. The big takeaway is the Chinese Govt. has made education a priority and not just now, at least for the last two decades. Even English teaching skills, I know have been in demand for over a decade and a half. I know this because even some of my friends who were teachers were stolen or given much better offers even though they knew no Mandarin, although they do look for western teachers more and pay them even more than what is advertised above.

And as far as science and other stuff is concerned, they try to attract the best because all of their education is geared towards a network-centric world and they wanna be at the top rather than at the bottom.

Edit - And that is the precise reason that the Americans are waking up now, because they do see that if they don't act now, the Chinese will simply walk all over them. The Chips Act, Education Loan free Act (dunno the precise name) and such other things. Although personally speaking, think they are a bit late, they should have done all the above a decade back, They have been asleep on the wheel for far too long

Governments are unresponsive, inefficient and run by and for the incumbents, not the public. Who knew?

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

If it was so, then Singapore wouldn't have been where it is. That is what UK wants to be or wanted to be. AFAIK, teachers in Singapore are paid the highest.

https://uban.motoretta.ca/asia/what-do- ... singapore/

Please don't drag history, be with the present. Even China has started paying their teachers well and pension - They realized that they weren't unlocking their teacher's true potential and around 1985 they started hiking teacher's salaries -

http://www.china.org.cn/english/1696.htm

I am sharing comparable ideas and data to counter this that you could teach more with less.

Even African countries are raising their education budgets -

https://allafrica.com/stories/202208310113.html

Let me ask you another question, does your underestanding applies to all or just education? Should bankers get more bonuses or less ? 2008 is an indicator but that probably would need a thread of its own.

According to https://www.zhihu.com/question/59291867?utm_id=0 , salary of teachers in Wuhan of China are about 10,000-20,000 USD per year, after including all bonuses and benefits for them.

I do not know Chinese but you can see this as you quoted Wuhan, dunno why you used that as a benchmark but whatever.

https://eslauthority.com/teach/china/salary/

So as can be seen it varies, there is a lot of band gap even in Wuhan, there are lot of variations on that. In fact, that webpage lists all the different ways one can expect to make money as a teacher in China. The big takeaway is the Chinese Govt. has made education a priority and not just now, at least for the last two decades. Even English teaching skills, I know have been in demand for over a decade and a half. I know this because even some of my friends who were teachers were stolen or given much better offers even though they knew no Mandarin, although they do look for western teachers more and pay them even more than what is advertised above.

And as far as science and other stuff is concerned, they try to attract the best because all of their education is geared towards a network-centric world and they wanna be at the top rather than at the bottom.

Edit - And that is the precise reason that the Americans are waking up now, because they do see that if they don't act now, the Chinese will simply walk all over them. The Chips Act, Education Loan free Act (dunno the precise name) and such other things. Although personally speaking, think they are a bit late, they should have done all the above a decade back, They have been asleep on the wheel for far too long

As you have identified, there are great variation in China. Tier 1 cities namely Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Shenzhen are top 10% of the country lack representation. Wuhan is a typical and probably more famous Tier 2 city that is also not in decline unlike some others and is thus more representational of average Chinese city economy.
And yes there is a range depends on position and such, and I have also quoted such band in my reply. And the range I quoted already included monetary values of all the benefits and bonuses mentioned in the link as I have stated. Some of the position in your link are essentially reserved to foreigner, or some of them no longer exists due to Xi's recent policy to clamp down private education service, in addition to the education "de-burdening" for student policy.
Yes English teaching have been in demand in China, until China recently banned private tutoring, which made a number of people in such position lost their job, and the largest English training organization in China have to transform their business to something else to cope with the rule.
I think it would be misjudged to think these policies are trying to gear their people toward a network-centric world, if anything they are even gradually moving toward removal of English curriculum from mandatory course, and reducing the amount of class time spending on it, indicating China want to move toward a more inward-looking economy.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Governments are unresponsive, inefficient and run by and for the incumbents, not the public. Who knew?

Not all. Go and ask the countries with the highest quality of living in the world. They generally spend a huge amount more tax money than the US and UK does. If you have qualified, competent people in positions of power, generally (suprise suprise) countries run better. Private companies running everything is not everyone's cup of tea and is certainly not over this side of the pond. The answer is to vote in more qualified, and expect more from your elected officials. The UK has fallen flat on it's face in that regard for the last decade, the US likewise.

Funding for all public services has been cut since 2012, so it's no suprise. There are always consequences, whether it's an increase in crime because of Police cuts, a fall in having enough qualified persons in the workforce to fufill jobs, weeks and weeks to see a doctor or days spent in corridor at a hospital because of cuts to healthcare funding.

This was all a choice and is all related / an effect to what government policy has been.

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

According to https://www.zhihu.com/question/59291867?utm_id=0 , salary of teachers in Wuhan of China are about 10,000-20,000 USD per year, after including all bonuses and benefits for them.

I do not know Chinese but you can see this as you quoted Wuhan, dunno why you used that as a benchmark but whatever.

https://eslauthority.com/teach/china/salary/

So as can be seen it varies, there is a lot of band gap even in Wuhan, there are lot of variations on that. In fact, that webpage lists all the different ways one can expect to make money as a teacher in China. The big takeaway is the Chinese Govt. has made education a priority and not just now, at least for the last two decades. Even English teaching skills, I know have been in demand for over a decade and a half. I know this because even some of my friends who were teachers were stolen or given much better offers even though they knew no Mandarin, although they do look for western teachers more and pay them even more than what is advertised above.

And as far as science and other stuff is concerned, they try to attract the best because all of their education is geared towards a network-centric world and they wanna be at the top rather than at the bottom.

Edit - And that is the precise reason that the Americans are waking up now, because they do see that if they don't act now, the Chinese will simply walk all over them. The Chips Act, Education Loan free Act (dunno the precise name) and such other things. Although personally speaking, think they are a bit late, they should have done all the above a decade back, They have been asleep on the wheel for far too long

As you have identified, there are great variation in China. Tier 1 cities namely Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Shenzhen are top 10% of the country lack representation. Wuhan is a typical and probably more famous Tier 2 city that is also not in decline unlike some others and is thus more representational of average Chinese city economy.
And yes there is a range depends on position and such, and I have also quoted such band in my reply. And the range I quoted already included monetary values of all the benefits and bonuses mentioned in the link as I have stated. Some of the position in your link are essentially reserved to foreigner, or some of them no longer exists due to Xi's recent policy to clamp down private education service, in addition to the education "de-burdening" for student policy.
Yes English teaching have been in demand in China, until China recently banned private tutoring, which made a number of people in such position lost their job, and the largest English training organization in China have to transform their business to something else to cope with the rule.
I think it would be misjudged to think these policies are trying to gear their people toward a network-centric world, if anything they are even gradually moving toward removal of English curriculum from mandatory course, and reducing the amount of class time spending on it, indicating China want to move toward a more inward-looking economy.

Do agree partially but not wholly, evidence -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J3MKDhJ_G8

The advances they have made in EUV lithography is something to be looked at, and this is when they started what 5-6 years back earnestly. They are quickly catching to the U.S. hence the recent CHIPS Act and others. Americans are playing the delay game as they know they can't deny the Chinese. ASML is a Dutch multinational corporation, As the Chinese are becoming better, they exerted pressure on ASML not to sell to China and they complied.

https://www.asml.com/en

Just to remind, this is just an example of what the Chinese are doing. The same applies to the C919. Apart from Airbus and Boeing, AFAIK there are no other aircraft manufacturers who are making 150+ seats air-planes. If countries want, they can do great things. And in all of the above, the central Govt. helps in all and every way. I haven't included merchant shipping, Railways, the list would simply go on and on.

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

I do not know Chinese but you can see this as you quoted Wuhan, dunno why you used that as a benchmark but whatever.

https://eslauthority.com/teach/china/salary/

So as can be seen it varies, there is a lot of band gap even in Wuhan, there are lot of variations on that. In fact, that webpage lists all the different ways one can expect to make money as a teacher in China. The big takeaway is the Chinese Govt. has made education a priority and not just now, at least for the last two decades. Even English teaching skills, I know have been in demand for over a decade and a half. I know this because even some of my friends who were teachers were stolen or given much better offers even though they knew no Mandarin, although they do look for western teachers more and pay them even more than what is advertised above.

And as far as science and other stuff is concerned, they try to attract the best because all of their education is geared towards a network-centric world and they wanna be at the top rather than at the bottom.

Edit - And that is the precise reason that the Americans are waking up now, because they do see that if they don't act now, the Chinese will simply walk all over them. The Chips Act, Education Loan free Act (dunno the precise name) and such other things. Although personally speaking, think they are a bit late, they should have done all the above a decade back, They have been asleep on the wheel for far too long

As you have identified, there are great variation in China. Tier 1 cities namely Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Shenzhen are top 10% of the country lack representation. Wuhan is a typical and probably more famous Tier 2 city that is also not in decline unlike some others and is thus more representational of average Chinese city economy.
And yes there is a range depends on position and such, and I have also quoted such band in my reply. And the range I quoted already included monetary values of all the benefits and bonuses mentioned in the link as I have stated. Some of the position in your link are essentially reserved to foreigner, or some of them no longer exists due to Xi's recent policy to clamp down private education service, in addition to the education "de-burdening" for student policy.
Yes English teaching have been in demand in China, until China recently banned private tutoring, which made a number of people in such position lost their job, and the largest English training organization in China have to transform their business to something else to cope with the rule.
I think it would be misjudged to think these policies are trying to gear their people toward a network-centric world, if anything they are even gradually moving toward removal of English curriculum from mandatory course, and reducing the amount of class time spending on it, indicating China want to move toward a more inward-looking economy.

Do agree partially but not wholly, evidence -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J3MKDhJ_G8

The advances they have made in EUV lithography is something to be looked at, and this is when they started what 5-6 years back earnestly. They are quickly catching to the U.S. hence the recent CHIPS Act and others. Americans are playing the delay game as they know they can't deny the Chinese. ASML is a Dutch multinational corporation, As the Chinese are becoming better, they exerted pressure on ASML not to sell to China and they complied.

https://www.asml.com/en

Just to remind, this is just an example of what the Chinese are doing. The same applies to the C919. Apart from Airbus and Boeing, AFAIK there are no other aircraft manufacturers who are making 150+ seats air-planes. If countries want, they can do great things. And in all of the above, the central Govt. helps in all and every way. I haven't included merchant shipping, Railways, the list would simply go on and on.

You are on an aviation forum but convenietly omitted MC21 while talking about planes of the same class as C919. Not to mention even ignoring certification issue COMAC face, they have a hard time in actually making their planes as can be seen in production rate of ARJ21,
This is far from "if countries want they can do great thing", and that is even assuming what they want to do is great. Even in China people joked Comac as more of a property developer selling lands they got instead of actually building planes. And the ultimate reason why Russia and China want MC21 and C919 is they anticipate times when they cannot trade with other countries due to themselves failure to comply with international norm to sustain power of their ruling regime, which have already happening to some extent in China with like lithography as you mentioned and even more for Russia due to the war, that's definitely not a force for good. It can also be seen in content of their education.
Furthermore, many of China's plan to develop their own industry in area they are not familiar with, come from tech transfer agreement with technologies developed by overseas companies as well as taking professionals away from other countries together with knowhow they possess under schemes like "thousand people project", and these are totally not what one would do if one trust that their own people can develop the technology they need through their own education system.

c933103 wrote:

You are on an aviation forum but conveniently omitted MC21 while talking about planes of the same class as C919. Not to mention even ignoring certification issue COMAC face, they have a hard time in actually making their planes as can be seen in production rate of ARJ21,
This is far from "if countries want they can do great thing", and that is even assuming what they want to do is great. Even in China people joked Comac as more of a property developer selling lands they got instead of actually building planes. And the ultimate reason why Russia and China want MC21 and C919 is they anticipate times when they cannot trade with other countries due to themselves failure to comply with international norm to sustain power of their ruling regime, which have already happening to some extent in China with like lithography as you mentioned and even more for Russia due to the war, that's definitely not a force for good. It can also be seen in content of their education.
Furthermore, many of China's plan to develop their own industry in area they are not familiar with, come from tech transfer agreement with technologies developed by overseas companies as well as taking professionals away from other countries together with knowhow they possess under schemes like "thousand people project", and these are totally not what one would do if one trust that their own people can develop the technology they need through their own education system.

On the contrary. In fact India is pretty similar to the UK that it has commitment issues.

https://www.livemint.com/opinion/column ... 27155.html

Now from your comment about China, if you look at the import-export figures, the import figures from China to India have been the highest ever.

About knowhow the less said the better, both the UK and the U.S. did not deem to acknowledge either patents, copyrights till they made enough knowledge.

Copyright started in the 14th century but both UK and the U.S. did not let copyrights, patents let work till 18th, 19th century -

Rerum venetarum ab urbe condita opus

The above is the first copyright work, apparently it is about history of Venice.

So it would be the case of pot calling the kettle black.

Now as far as I know, apart from NASA only China has been able to put a rover in mars and that too in first attempt.

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

You are on an aviation forum but conveniently omitted MC21 while talking about planes of the same class as C919. Not to mention even ignoring certification issue COMAC face, they have a hard time in actually making their planes as can be seen in production rate of ARJ21,
This is far from "if countries want they can do great thing", and that is even assuming what they want to do is great. Even in China people joked Comac as more of a property developer selling lands they got instead of actually building planes. And the ultimate reason why Russia and China want MC21 and C919 is they anticipate times when they cannot trade with other countries due to themselves failure to comply with international norm to sustain power of their ruling regime, which have already happening to some extent in China with like lithography as you mentioned and even more for Russia due to the war, that's definitely not a force for good. It can also be seen in content of their education.
Furthermore, many of China's plan to develop their own industry in area they are not familiar with, come from tech transfer agreement with technologies developed by overseas companies as well as taking professionals away from other countries together with knowhow they possess under schemes like "thousand people project", and these are totally not what one would do if one trust that their own people can develop the technology they need through their own education system.

On the contrary. In fact India is pretty similar to the UK that it has commitment issues.

https://www.livemint.com/opinion/column ... 27155.html

Now from your comment about China, if you look at the import-export figures, the import figures from China to India have been the highest ever.

About knowhow the less said the better, both the UK and the U.S. did not deem to acknowledge either patents, copyrights till they made enough knowledge.

Copyright started in the 14th century but both UK and the U.S. did not let copyrights, patents let work till 18th, 19th century -

Rerum venetarum ab urbe condita opus

The above is the first copyright work, apparently it is about history of Venice.

So it would be the case of pot calling the kettle black.

Now as far as I know, apart from NASA only China has been able to put a rover in mars and that too in first attempt.

The trade volume you mentioned does not correlate with any of the previous points about education.
It is certain that breaking barrier against copyright make a country more capable of using mew technology, but it also decrease incentive for people to put their money and effort into developing new things AND encourage people make their new development secret.
On the time scale of education in view of one's entire life, it's already enough to make differences in where one would want to develop their own products.

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

You are on an aviation forum but conveniently omitted MC21 while talking about planes of the same class as C919. Not to mention even ignoring certification issue COMAC face, they have a hard time in actually making their planes as can be seen in production rate of ARJ21,
This is far from "if countries want they can do great thing", and that is even assuming what they want to do is great. Even in China people joked Comac as more of a property developer selling lands they got instead of actually building planes. And the ultimate reason why Russia and China want MC21 and C919 is they anticipate times when they cannot trade with other countries due to themselves failure to comply with international norm to sustain power of their ruling regime, which have already happening to some extent in China with like lithography as you mentioned and even more for Russia due to the war, that's definitely not a force for good. It can also be seen in content of their education.
Furthermore, many of China's plan to develop their own industry in area they are not familiar with, come from tech transfer agreement with technologies developed by overseas companies as well as taking professionals away from other countries together with knowhow they possess under schemes like "thousand people project", and these are totally not what one would do if one trust that their own people can develop the technology they need through their own education system.

On the contrary. In fact India is pretty similar to the UK that it has commitment issues.

https://www.livemint.com/opinion/column ... 27155.html

Now from your comment about China, if you look at the import-export figures, the import figures from China to India have been the highest ever.

About knowhow the less said the better, both the UK and the U.S. did not deem to acknowledge either patents, copyrights till they made enough knowledge.

Copyright started in the 14th century but both UK and the U.S. did not let copyrights, patents let work till 18th, 19th century -

Rerum venetarum ab urbe condita opus

The above is the first copyright work, apparently it is about history of Venice.

So it would be the case of pot calling the kettle black.

Now as far as I know, apart from NASA only China has been able to put a rover in mars and that too in first attempt.

Just in the news, China is trying to use Hong Kong as manufacturing place of new chips to attract American Chinese people which Mainland China is now difficult to. This mean they are entrusting American education system instead of their local education system to build the chips. Should UK learn from this?

https://news.now.com/home/local/player?Id=494186

Interestingly, even after the chip Act, U.S. allows Samsung to export chip technology to China for a year -

https://www.sammobile.com/news/usa-allo ... -one-year/

The link you shared gives a blank page. In fact, I used tor to bypass any regional restrictions on the same. Still it is a blank page. Are you certain you gave me the correct link.

I would suggest to look at Google Scholar and see which country has the most patents for 4G, 5G, 6G and 7G patents. You would find most of the patents are held by the Chinese. Patents for LFP batteries, the list simply goes on and on.

pune wrote:

Interestingly, even after the chip Act, U.S. allows Samsung to export chip technology to China for a year -

https://www.sammobile.com/news/usa-allo ... -one-year/

The link you shared gives a blank page. In fact, I used tor to bypass any regional restrictions on the same. Still it is a blank page. Are you certain you gave me the correct link.

Sorry, the link missed a few characters
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=494186

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

Interestingly, even after the chip Act, U.S. allows Samsung to export chip technology to China for a year -

https://www.sammobile.com/news/usa-allo ... -one-year/

The link you shared gives a blank page. In fact, I used tor to bypass any regional restrictions on the same. Still it is a blank page. Are you certain you gave me the correct link.

Sorry, the link missed a few characters
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=494186

Thanks, the Chinese are pretty smart, I must admit. They have found a way to outsmart the Americans. And the Americans would be in a fix. Because if they say no, then the Americans will be accused of not keeping their word, if they do, then the Chinese will get hands on the technology. The Chinese do know how to play the long game

Dunno if you have read it or not https://thehundredyearmarathon.com/

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

Interestingly, even after the chip Act, U.S. allows Samsung to export chip technology to China for a year -

https://www.sammobile.com/news/usa-allo ... -one-year/

The link you shared gives a blank page. In fact, I used tor to bypass any regional restrictions on the same. Still it is a blank page. Are you certain you gave me the correct link.

Sorry, the link missed a few characters
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=494186

Thanks, the Chinese are pretty smart, I must admit. They have found a way to outsmart the Americans. And the Americans would be in a fix. Because if they say no, then the Americans will be accused of not keeping their word, if they do, then the Chinese will get hands on the technology. The Chinese do know how to play the long game

Dunno if you have read it or not https://thehundredyearmarathon.com/

What words you mean? Are they related to education?

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Sorry, the link missed a few characters
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=494186

Thanks, the Chinese are pretty smart, I must admit. They have found a way to outsmart the Americans. And the Americans would be in a fix. Because if they say no, then the Americans will be accused of not keeping their word, if they do, then the Chinese will get hands on the technology. The Chinese do know how to play the long game

Dunno if you have read it or not https://thehundredyearmarathon.com/

What words you mean? Are they related to education?

Usually Countries do deals that we call as bilateral investment treaties in which they assure their partners that they will come to help the other. You need to read this -

https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-inve ... hong-kong/

And what I shared is to do with what Chinese interests are. Everything that the Chinese do has some long-term planning attached to it.

They weaponize whatever they can and are pretty good at it.

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

Thanks, the Chinese are pretty smart, I must admit. They have found a way to outsmart the Americans. And the Americans would be in a fix. Because if they say no, then the Americans will be accused of not keeping their word, if they do, then the Chinese will get hands on the technology. The Chinese do know how to play the long game

Dunno if you have read it or not https://thehundredyearmarathon.com/

What words you mean? Are they related to education?

Usually Countries do deals that we call as bilateral investment treaties in which they assure their partners that they will come to help the other. You need to read this -

https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-inve ... hong-kong/

And what I shared is to do with what Chinese interests are. Everything that the Chinese do has some long-term planning attached to it.

They weaponize whatever they can and are pretty good at it.

I am not sure how that's relevant and there are no bilateral investment treaty between Hong Kong and the US either as the website have stated

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

What words you mean? Are they related to education?

Usually Countries do deals that we call as bilateral investment treaties in which they assure their partners that they will come to help the other. You need to read this -

https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-inve ... hong-kong/

And what I shared is to do with what Chinese interests are. Everything that the Chinese do has some long-term planning attached to it.

They weaponize whatever they can and are pretty good at it.

I am not sure how that's relevant and there are no bilateral investment treaty between Hong Kong and the US either as the website have stated

Yeah, but you can't deny that they have actual businesses and being the sixth nation as far as overall trade figures says a lot and has many implications. And most of the Banking is actually in the hands of the Chinese. All of the above taken from the same webpage. Most of the people of Chinese origin are product of state institutions which are subsidized by tax payer. Same as in Germany and quite a few European countries. Germany arguably the biggest industrial power in the world.

Those two together tell why state funding is needed and important. Even small states in African countries or Israel understands that.where they are and have been putting funds in state education.

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

Usually Countries do deals that we call as bilateral investment treaties in which they assure their partners that they will come to help the other. You need to read this -

https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-inve ... hong-kong/

And what I shared is to do with what Chinese interests are. Everything that the Chinese do has some long-term planning attached to it.

They weaponize whatever they can and are pretty good at it.

I am not sure how that's relevant and there are no bilateral investment treaty between Hong Kong and the US either as the website have stated

Yeah, but you can't deny that they have actual businesses and being the sixth nation as far as overall trade figures says a lot and has many implications. And most of the Banking is actually in the hands of the Chinese. All of the above taken from the same webpage. Most of the people of Chinese origin are product of state institutions which are subsidized by tax payer. Same as in Germany and quite a few European countries. Germany arguably the biggest industrial power in the world.

Those two together tell why state funding is needed and important. Even small states in African countries or Israel understands that.where they are and have been putting funds in state education.

In other words, you believe national budget on education should produce because it would help promoting national ideology?

c933103 wrote:

pune wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I am not sure how that's relevant and there are no bilateral investment treaty between Hong Kong and the US either as the website have stated

Yeah, but you can't deny that they have actual businesses and being the sixth nation as far as overall trade figures says a lot and has many implications. And most of the Banking is actually in the hands of the Chinese. All of the above taken from the same webpage. Most of the people of Chinese origin are product of state institutions which are subsidized by tax payer. Same as in Germany and quite a few European countries. Germany arguably the biggest industrial power in the world.

Those two together tell why state funding is needed and important. Even small states in African countries or Israel understands that.where they are and have been putting funds in state education.

In other words, you believe national budget on education should produce because it would help promoting national ideology?

The sad fact is UK doesn't have any ideology anymore. If it had, then sure, but it doesn't. What it stands for, nobody knows, and especially now where the politicians are only tearing the country down.

pune wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

pune wrote:

In an ideal world, spending should have gone up, that means more people are educated and make better choices. If funding is cut wherever, that means people's choices are reduced and they are becoming poorer and poorer, it is as simple as that. That is also the reason that both nurses and railway personnel are striking. You need good working conditions and decent pay staff. If you don't then they will be forced to leave the industry and sometimes even the country. I think there is staffing crisis in the UK in both the places and getting new people in from abroad won't be easy. You just can't replace x with y even though it may seem to be as easy as that.

This is such bad logic. There is such a thing as learning to be more efficient and effective in education and achieving even more with less funding. History is replete of examples of governments expanding administrative positions within departments and those yielding little to no benefit at all to students.

Someone’s this is purely out of a poor idea or poorly implemented idea, but sometimes it’s electoral politics: making civil servants and unions happy, which in turn yields votes for politicians. In democracies, for politicians, the vote is currency.

If it was so, then Singapore wouldn't have been where it is. That is what UK wants to be or wanted to be. AFAIK, teachers in Singapore are paid the highest.

https://uban.motoretta.ca/asia/what-do- ... singapore/

Please don't drag history, be with the present. Even China has started paying their teachers well and pension - They realized that they weren't unlocking their teacher's true potential and around 1985 they started hiking teacher's salaries -

http://www.china.org.cn/english/1696.htm

I am sharing comparable ideas and data to counter this that you could teach more with less.

Even African countries are raising their education budgets -

https://allafrica.com/stories/202208310113.html

Let me ask you another question, does your underestanding applies to all or just education? Should bankers get more bonuses or less ? 2008 is an indicator but that probably would need a thread of its own.

In general, not just in education. Read the link below:

https://e360.yale.edu/features/phantom- ... ate-change

Much more benefit could have been achieved with HALF whatever budgets these governments had, if only they had sought advice.

PPVRA wrote:

pune wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

This is such bad logic. There is such a thing as learning to be more efficient and effective in education and achieving even more with less funding. History is replete of examples of governments expanding administrative positions within departments and those yielding little to no benefit at all to students.

Someone’s this is purely out of a poor idea or poorly implemented idea, but sometimes it’s electoral politics: making civil servants and unions happy, which in turn yields votes for politicians. In democracies, for politicians, the vote is currency.

If it was so, then Singapore wouldn't have been where it is. That is what UK wants to be or wanted to be. AFAIK, teachers in Singapore are paid the highest.

https://uban.motoretta.ca/asia/what-do- ... singapore/

Please don't drag history, be with the present. Even China has started paying their teachers well and pension - They realized that they weren't unlocking their teacher's true potential and around 1985 they started hiking teacher's salaries -

http://www.china.org.cn/english/1696.htm

I am sharing comparable ideas and data to counter this that you could teach more with less.

Even African countries are raising their education budgets -

https://allafrica.com/stories/202208310113.html

Let me ask you another question, does your underestanding applies to all or just education? Should bankers get more bonuses or less ? 2008 is an indicator but that probably would need a thread of its own.

In general, not just in education. Read the link below:

https://e360.yale.edu/features/phantom- ... ate-change

Much more benefit could have been achieved with HALF whatever budgets these governments had, if only they had sought advice.

I agree about what has been shared but that is politics. Even for education more often than not, funds are spend to just for show rather than taking advice from experts. But then we don't like experts, that is again a conundrum, I know of so many projects in many fields including education as well as environment where subject field experts are not bought in, and even if bought in, they are just there for the planning stage. What you need them is to be there not just for planning but execution also and need of proper follow-up. One can look at programs like GSOC (Google Summer of Code) and similar such programs and they could be replicated to some extent. But again, that would need planning and proper funding.

For e.g. I come from Pune where there is FTII (Film and Television Institute of India.) and that institute has been churning out actors and actresses which have won all sorts of prestige from around the world and they have done it consistently over 5 decades. The current administration doesn't see a need for soft power and hence have dried up funding.