Another complete overreach of needless government regulations. This guy buys a STOCK Hyundai Elantra N and did NO modifications to the car. A Riverside California cop pulls him over and cites him saying the car is too loud for the street. Now his registration has been suspended on the car making it undrivable till the car can comply with state regulations. Hyundai of North America and the dealer refuse to help because the car is stock and unmodified.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-hy ... alifornia/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXDFWuNrCRA

I’m sure his neighbors are just heartbroken to hear this

Been following this story for a few weeks.

Not sure how it works in the US between Federal and State regulations, but if the vehicle meets Federal Transportation requirements that should trump any State regulations. But if you live in a Country that prefers each State have their own regulations, well, have fun.

As a car enthusiast, I’m all for stricter noise regulations on cars - exhaust noise has gotten way out of hand but it should be done in a Federal level. If the vehicles Race Mode does not meet Federal or State regulations or is for “off road” use only, then the vehicle should not be for sale as is.

As for the cops, well, some of them can be just straight up dicks.

California has a 95db limit. That is unsafe loud! (It will cause hearing damage if that was typical).

The car registered 102db when tested. That is dangerously loud. (2nd link)

https://maisonlaw.com/safety-laws/calif ... oise-laws/

The car was loudly backfiring per this report:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-hy ... ornia/amp/

The car was being driven on the street in "track mode". He was required to have "track mode" disabled per the above link.

This should not be a street legal car. 95db is too loud. What is Switzerland's rule, 85db? I think that is fair.

Your rights end when it infringes on my rights. These cars should have their registrations revoked.

Lightsaber

95dB what? 120 dB What? Just «dB» means nothing. Nothing in the world is easier than getting a sound measurement wrong. Everything can measure 95dB if you do it wrong.
Now, I’m all for making it a ticketable offense to drive a fossil car at all, but this seems rather thin.

After reading the car and driver report, I think Hyundai, and state officials should have their experts present for the next test. If the car fails, hyundai has to recall it, if it passes, then the state was incorrect.

I think if the man was in "Track" Mode while driving on the streets, he should still be ticketed.

However a car that can be customized with options while driving, does not requre a "fix" it just requires testing under "Normal Mode"

casinterest wrote:

After reading the car and driver report, I think Hyundai, and state officials should have their experts present for the next test. If the car fails, hyundai has to recall it, if it passes, then the state was incorrect.

I think if the man was in "Track" Mode while driving on the streets, he should still be ticketed.

However a car that can be customized with options while driving, does not requre a "fix" it just requires testing under "Normal Mode"

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

From a strictly legal view point, if it was being driven on a public street in "track mode" then it seems logical to test it in that mode. There may be no law against driving it in said mode but there is the law about the noise the car makes. Curios if it is possible to confirm it was being driven in that mode at that time.

Tugg

Testing should be done at the loudest setting possible in stock form including all drive modes.

If a stock mode can be used in public roads then that’s what needs be tested.

ACDC8 wrote:

Testing should be done at the loudest setting possible in stock form including all drive modes.

If a stock mode can be used in public roads then that’s what needs be tested.

I don't agree on that, the owner is responsible for operating their vehicle in a legal manner. An unregistered car can still be driven on the road and a car can be driven far faster than any legal speed limits. I don't want to see us begin the path that makes that something at issue.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

From a strictly legal view point, if it was being driven on a public street in "track mode" then it seems logical to test it in that mode. There may be no law against driving it in said mode but there is the law about the noise the car makes. Curios if it is possible to confirm it was being driven in that mode at that time.

Tugg

More precisely, the driver saw no issue driving on the street in track mode.

To those discussing db:
As to noise, there are OSHA standards. I have calibrated meters to protect people and prove our manufacturing is within OSHA guidelines. It isn't rocket science to measure noise. Heck, my noiseX app on my phone is only off by a dB from calibrated devices. 55db is a library. It shouldn't ever exceed 65db in a suburb outside (46 to 65db per link).

At high 70s dB people who still have their hearing complain. 102db causes hearing damage.

https://soundproofingguide.com/decibels ... el%20range.

My local community has noise sensors.
I was told if it triggers above 95 db they find and ticket the offender. Since there are only 5 roads in and out, they catch almost everyone. No one has a right to 102db.

Seriously, it is like people don't care about waking babies anymore. Since the sensors (e.g., at schools), the communities are much more pleasant.

Lightsaber

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

casinterest wrote:

After reading the car and driver report, I think Hyundai, and state officials should have their experts present for the next test. If the car fails, hyundai has to recall it, if it passes, then the state was incorrect.

I think if the man was in "Track" Mode while driving on the streets, he should still be ticketed.

However a car that can be customized with options while driving, does not requre a "fix" it just requires testing under "Normal Mode"

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

Track mode isn't illegal, but if Track mode puts you at +95 db, then Track mode made you violate the noise ordinance.

lightsaber wrote:

Tugger wrote:

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

From a strictly legal view point, if it was being driven on a public street in "track mode" then it seems logical to test it in that mode. There may be no law against driving it in said mode but there is the law about the noise the car makes. Curios if it is possible to confirm it was being driven in that mode at that time.

Tugg

More precisely, the driver saw no issue driving on the street in track mode.

To those discussing db:
As to noise, there are OSHA standards. I have calibrated meters to protect people and prove our manufacturing is within OSHA guidelines. It isn't rocket science to measure noise. Heck, my noiseX app on my phone is only off by a dB from calibrated devices. 55db is a library. It shouldn't ever exceed 65db in a suburb outside (46 to 65db per link).

At high 70s dB people who still have their hearing complain. 102db causes hearing damage.

https://soundproofingguide.com/decibels ... el%20range.

My local community has noise sensors.
I was told if it triggers above 95 db they find and ticket the offender. Since there are only 5 roads in and out, they catch almost everyone. No one has a right to 102db.

Seriously, it is like people don't care about waking babies anymore. Since the sensors (e.g., at schools), the communities are much more pleasant.

Lightsaber

Is there a standard distance from noise source to the mic?

Tugg

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

casinterest wrote:

After reading the car and driver report, I think Hyundai, and state officials should have their experts present for the next test. If the car fails, hyundai has to recall it, if it passes, then the state was incorrect.

I think if the man was in "Track" Mode while driving on the streets, he should still be ticketed.

However a car that can be customized with options while driving, does not requre a "fix" it just requires testing under "Normal Mode"

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

The reg isn't about the selected mode - you really want the law to specify for make and model? The reg is about street noise, and that reflects the wishes of residents.

You make it sound like it's perfectly OK for a driver to operate their vehicle however they want.

Aaron747 wrote:

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

casinterest wrote:

After reading the car and driver report, I think Hyundai, and state officials should have their experts present for the next test. If the car fails, hyundai has to recall it, if it passes, then the state was incorrect.

I think if the man was in "Track" Mode while driving on the streets, he should still be ticketed.

However a car that can be customized with options while driving, does not requre a "fix" it just requires testing under "Normal Mode"

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

The reg isn't about the selected mode - you really want the law to specify for make and model? The reg is about street noise, and that reflects the wishes of residents.

You make it sound like it's perfectly OK for a driver to operate their vehicle however they want.

Well, in another thread he started, he also wanted there to be no oversight or govt regulation over car dealers, either.

johns624 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

The reg isn't about the selected mode - you really want the law to specify for make and model? The reg is about street noise, and that reflects the wishes of residents.

You make it sound like it's perfectly OK for a driver to operate their vehicle however they want.

Well, in another thread he started, he also wanted there to be no oversight or govt regulation over car dealers, either.

Oh I see. I have to admit I find the whole 'sovereign citizen' thing morbidly fascinating.

Aaron747 wrote:

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

casinterest wrote:

After reading the car and driver report, I think Hyundai, and state officials should have their experts present for the next test. If the car fails, hyundai has to recall it, if it passes, then the state was incorrect.

I think if the man was in "Track" Mode while driving on the streets, he should still be ticketed.

However a car that can be customized with options while driving, does not requre a "fix" it just requires testing under "Normal Mode"

Despite what the Motor Trend Article says, there is NO LAW in the CVC that says you cannot operate a car in Track Mode. The testing facility tested the car in track mode and it should have been tested in normal mode. There are several youtube videos on this were attorneys chime in. This guy got a bad deal, and this ticket should be dismissed.

The reg isn't about the selected mode - you really want the law to specify for make and model? The reg is about street noise, and that reflects the wishes of residents.

You make it sound like it's perfectly OK for a driver to operate their vehicle however they want.

In other countries you have laws where you can be in trouble if you drive a car in a manner that makes it very noisy. That stops the clowns driving around at 11pm at night making heaps of noise.

Noise cameras are the best invention, they soon lose interest in being noisy when it costs them money!

Are their sovereign citizen rights to be super noisy more sovereign than the sovereign citizen rights of others to not be impacted by that noise...

Yea like I said, complete overreach of govt regs. My brother bought a TransAm back in 2000, first thing he did was straight pipe it and take off the cats. His car his choice. Never got bothered.

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

Yea like I said, complete overreach of govt regs. My brother bought a TransAm back in 2000, first thing he did was straight pipe it and take off the cats. His car his choice. Never got bothered.

Your rights stop where mine begin.

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:

Yea like I said, complete overreach of govt regs. My brother bought a TransAm back in 2000, first thing he did was straight pipe it and take off the cats. His car his choice. Never got bothered.

In other words, your brother was totally inconsiderate to neighbors. There’s living with choice and then there’s straight up being a childish jerk.

I have seen issues like this hit an HOA twice in my lifetime. The boyfriend has a load muffler, everyone hears him coming and going into the neighborhood. Everyone complains to the HOA. HOA tells the complainers to contact the cops for the local noise ordinance. Eventually the boyfriend is pulled over. Car is not street legal , and off to court they go with the ticket. People are pissed, and then the person that gets the ticket is hacked off because he is inconviencinced, but he ignores everyone else's peace and privacy on his path to glory. Usually it is because of a bad modificiation.

If this is a stock Hyundai, then perhaps the state of california needs to look into it.

ACDC8 wrote:

Not sure how it works in the US between Federal and State regulations, but if the vehicle meets Federal Transportation requirements that should trump any State regulations. But if you live in a Country that prefers each State have their own regulations, well, have fun.

AFAIK, all drivers in California must "smog" their cars. Even in the far flung counties like Modoc and Del Norte, away from Los Angeles and San Francisco. Also, parts of Washington and Oregon must "smog" their cars as well. Not everywhere. We don't, but in Medford, Eugene, and Portland, they do.

State's rights and all, I guess?

Maybe, and I gladly accept feedback since I don't know all 50 states regulations on motor vehicles, the federal government sets a minimum standard, but each state sets other standards, which are higher.

ACDC8 wrote:

As for the cops, well, some of them can be just straight up dicks.

Yes, we knew this. Can not stress this enough but for another thread....

casinterest wrote:

I have seen issues like this hit an HOA twice in my lifetime. The boyfriend has a load muffler, everyone hears him coming and going into the neighborhood. Everyone complains to the HOA. HOA tells the complainers to contact the cops for the local noise ordinance. Eventually the boyfriend is pulled over. Car is not street legal , and off to court they go with the ticket. People are pissed, and then the person that gets the ticket is hacked off because he is inconviencinced, but he ignores everyone else's peace and privacy on his path to glory. Usually it is because of a bad modificiation.

If this is a stock Hyundai, then perhaps the state of california needs to look into it.

Or maybe California made these laws for a reason? Side shows, maybe? I hate loud vehicles. Motorcycles or cars. Motorcycles I get. It still bothers me, but fine. I can live with loud motorcycles. But why in the heck does a 2002 Honda Civic need to be that loud? Or maybe private sales should be exempt?

Oregon has a law that "homeless" RVs can not be removed from the streets during the winter months. It is irritating, especially in "older" sections of towns, like where we live. I get it, I guess, but these people need mental health resources more than a drafty, run-down RV. We have a broken down RV and SUV in our parking lot at work. It has been there for like a month. No one has come or gone. If we wait another week, we can not do anything about it for like six months. At that time, it will be vandalized and probably a meth lab.

Each state has their own laws, which we in other states may not understand, but they are there.

Aaron747 wrote:

In other words, your brother was totally inconsiderate to neighbors. There’s living with choice and then there’s straight up being a childish jerk.

People could always respond in kind, late at night, early morning a loud lawn-mower left going near the fence, particularly when said person is very tired, and if said person complains then they must be a commie snowflake...

Eventually it gets silly. The current crop of cars with stupid engine maps to make lots of noise are just so overdone. A classic like a Ferrari F355 doesn't do that. Nor does a 600+hp V12 McLaren F1. Yet a 250hp hatchback shopping trolley is sounding like it is attacking a world-rally stage.

Tugger wrote:

I don't agree on that, the owner is responsible for operating their vehicle in a legal manner. An unregistered car can still be driven on the road and a car can be driven far faster than any legal speed limits. I don't want to see us begin the path that makes that something at issue.

Tugg

I'm not going to disagree with you, but my point is that manufacturers don't typically sell stock features on mass produced cars that are for "off road" use only. Its one thing if you take a new car and go to a third party vendor to modify it, but not directly from the manufacturer. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd think that vehicles wouldn't get certification to be sold with "off road" use only features. I'm sure there are the odd exceptions here and there, but for the most part, every thing on the car should be street legal. If, track mode truly does open up the exhaust to higher than allowed sound limits, then that car should not be able to sold as is by Hyundai.

I had a Mk7 Golf R, and even with a resonator delete and the valves coded open, put it in "Race" mode and it was still quiet. The new Mk8 is a bit louder, has a few more farts and burbles, but still pretty tame.

seb146 wrote:

AFAIK, all drivers in California must "smog" their cars. Even in the far flung counties like Modoc and Del Norte, away from Los Angeles and San Francisco. Also, parts of Washington and Oregon must "smog" their cars as well. Not everywhere. We don't, but in Medford, Eugene, and Portland, they do.

State's rights and all, I guess?

We had that too back in the 1990s here in BC, but it only applied to the Metro Vancouver area, but any new car, unless it had a defect, would pass the test.

cpd wrote:

Eventually it gets silly. The current crop of cars with stupid engine maps to make lots of noise are just so overdone. A classic like a Ferrari F355 doesn't do that. Nor does a 600+hp V12 McLaren F1. Yet a 250hp hatchback shopping trolley is sounding like it is attacking a world-rally stage.

The Audi diesel prototypes at Le Mans were wild - 200mph on a serene turbo whoosh with barely any exhaust noise at all. The engineer who was in charge of the engine said that noise was just wasted energy.

Found this in the Elantra N's owner's manual:

"Please be aware and be mindful when using exhaust sound system in SPORT+ mode as the pops and bangs can cause disturbance to your neighbors when using it in a crowded public area, closed parking spaces, and/or residential area.We strongly recommend to use it with consideration."

The only mention I could find about only using a feature on the track is the launch control, but it doesn't say not to be used on public roads.

ACDC8 wrote:

Found this in the Elantra N's owner's manual:

"Please be aware and be mindful when using exhaust sound system in SPORT+ mode as the pops and bangs can cause disturbance to your neighbors when using it in a crowded public area, closed parking spaces, and/or residential area.We strongly recommend to use it with consideration."

The only mention I could find about only using a feature on the track is the launch control, but it doesn't say not to be used on public roads.

Great, use it all the time and never shift higher than second gear. That’s what the try-hards do around here. BMW M drivers in M2/3/4 are equally guilty, so are AMG drivers.

Give me a classic quiet and potent 993 Turbo or a W140 or R129 Merc with an M120E72.

Newark727 wrote:

cpd wrote:

Eventually it gets silly. The current crop of cars with stupid engine maps to make lots of noise are just so overdone. A classic like a Ferrari F355 doesn't do that. Nor does a 600+hp V12 McLaren F1. Yet a 250hp hatchback shopping trolley is sounding like it is attacking a world-rally stage.

The Audi diesel prototypes at Le Mans were wild - 200mph on a serene turbo whoosh with barely any exhaust noise at all. The engineer who was in charge of the engine said that noise was just wasted energy.

Same with the Peugeot 908HDI - huge power and torque and no noise. It did max 4500rpm. There is a guy in the UK that has all the parts, intellectual property and data for the 908. He bought it all from Peugeot. Theoretically he could build you a new one…

cpd wrote:

Great, use it all the time and never shift higher than second gear. That’s what the try-hards do around here. BMW M drivers in M2/3/4 are equally guilty, so are AMG drivers.

Oh, I'm not defending the driver or the car - I despise "pops and bangs" and excessively loud exhaust just as much as anyone else. Just looking for any evidence where the manufacturer states that "N Mode" is not to be used on public roads or any legal ground the officer had saying that the driver has to take a stock feature out of a vehicle.

"exhaust sound system"

So it might not even be real engine exhaust noise, but a HP faking it.

The cop might be a dick but he's right anyway. The manufacturer, we'll see.

The original Bugatti Veyron "invented" track mode I think, in the case of that car it was 400Km/h mode. You were supposed to check your tires, pressure etc., then had to put in a special key and only then would it activate. It wasn't about noise, though.

ACDC8 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

I don't agree on that, the owner is responsible for operating their vehicle in a legal manner. An unregistered car can still be driven on the road and a car can be driven far faster than any legal speed limits. I don't want to see us begin the path that makes that something at issue.

Tugg

I'm not going to disagree with you, but my point is that manufacturers don't typically sell stock features on mass produced cars that are for "off road" use only. Its one thing if you take a new car and go to a third party vendor to modify it, but not directly from the manufacturer. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd think that vehicles wouldn't get certification to be sold with "off road" use only features. I'm sure there are the odd exceptions here and there, but for the most part, every thing on the car should be street legal. If, track mode truly does open up the exhaust to higher than allowed sound limits, then that car should not be able to sold as is by Hyundai.

I had a Mk7 Golf R, and even with a resonator delete and the valves coded open, put it in "Race" mode and it was still quiet. The new Mk8 is a bit louder, has a few more farts and burbles, but still pretty tame.

I think you and I are pretty much on the same page. As long as the vehicle can be street legal and driven off the lot by the owner without any issue, it is OK to be sold. I'm just leaning to more "the owner is responsible use of the car" regarding it's capabilities after that. That same owner can drive it off not wearing a seat belt and speeding down the street (only to get pulled over and ticketed for both, which I am sure this has happened countless times ). The car must be able to meet all legal requirements but the fact it can exceed them/be driven in an illegal manner even as sold by the manufacturer does not make the manufacturer responsible or the car automatically illegal. Though I think manufacturing the car with a nitrous-oxide option probably crosses the line... :-spin:

In the case of idiots making their cars public nuisances, that is exactly why the public demands government regulations. It is the inconsiderate idiots themselves who make regulation needed. (And I have been know be be one of those idiots at times.) Sure there is a lot of overreach but in this case, as some posters have demonstrated, there is a need for vehicle noise regulations.

seb146 wrote:

AFAIK, all drivers in California must "smog" their cars. Even in the far flung counties like Modoc and Del Norte, away from Los Angeles and San Francisco. Also, parts of Washington and Oregon must "smog" their cars as well. Not everywhere. We don't, but in Medford, Eugene, and Portland, they do.

State's rights and all, I guess?

Actually California three "types" of areas regarding smog checks. Some only require smog check at change of title (original sale and later ones), and Modoc is one of those.
https://www.bar.ca.gov/services/program ... arealookup

Tugg

lightsaber wrote:

It isn't rocket science to measure noise. Heck, my noiseX app on my phone is only off by a dB from calibrated devices.

Messuring noise is a lot harder than rocket science.
I’ve been an audio professional for more than 20 years and I would never pretend to be able to accurately measure sound pressure levels, and you shouldn’t either.

Aesma wrote:

"exhaust sound system"

So it might not even be real engine exhaust noise, but a HP faking it.

The cop might be a dick but he's right anyway. The manufacturer, we'll see.

The original Bugatti Veyron "invented" track mode I think, in the case of that car it was 400Km/h mode. You were supposed to check your tires, pressure etc., then had to put in a special key and only then would it activate. It wasn't about noise, though.

That’s true. But in the case of Bugatti they only did it as a way to deter people from doing 400km/h everywhere. Going through the whole procedure I think was also a bit of a thing to protect the company.

Koenigsegg almost had a customer going to do a world speed record effort on their own with koenigsegg notified as a courtesy. Naturally Christian von Koenigsegg freaked out and insisted they work together, bring engineers and Michelin along for safety (and a second another car). Hence how the Agera RS did 457km/h.

Bugatti is a great example of quiet performance. It’s quiet and it goes. It doesn’t overstate what it is and what it can do. But when you have 1600hp you don’t need pops and bangs.

Loud exhaust is a lot like the question, “do you know who I am?” If you are that important or your car is that fast, they speak for themselves.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Loud exhaust is a lot like the question, “do you know who I am?” If you are that important or your car is that fast, they speak for themselves.

A mismatch between reality and self awareness, yes.

Aaron747 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Loud exhaust is a lot like the question, “do you know who I am?” If you are that important or your car is that fast, they speak for themselves.

A mismatch between reality and self awareness, yes.

Or compensating for other shortcomings...