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leader1
Posts: 494
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:46 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Kemp being projected the winner. Will Abrams concede?


She just did.

https://www.axios.com/abrams-kemp-georg ... 1ee0d.html

How about Trump? still waiting for his concession…two years later.
 
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KPTKRampy
Posts: 141
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:15 am

Has Michigan’s governor race (Whitmer Vs Dixon) been called yet?
 
BN747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:16 am

Oz pulls a Geo. (price of milk) Bush Sr HUGE Fubar...

Oz the day (Saturday) before Sunday NFL games, Oz tells voters 'now go out and find 10 Steeler fans at the game tomorrow..."

Thinking he was clever at coming across as a 'clued in fan'...only to find out the next day, was a Steeler bye-week,...there was no game.

In Steeler country, that's a swan dive of a Fubar. The votes he lost on that alone has to eclipse the difference in his loss.


BN747
Last edited by BN747 on Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:17 am

Fetterman now projected as the winner in Pennsylvania, over Oz.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:21 am

KPTKRampy wrote:
Has Michigan’s governor race (Whitmer Vs Dixon) been called yet?


Whitmer leads by 6 points with 68% of the votes counted. A loss is not statistically impossible. Michigan is a slow-count state, so may be awhile before the call.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:26 am

Evers projected to win in Wisconsin.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:26 am

leader1 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
How about Trump? still waiting for his concession…two years later.


According to Bill Maher on Kimmel tonight, "Trump will get around to it...he's just been busy..."
 
bennett123
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:26 am

NIKV69 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I read that the GOP will try to impeach Biden if they win. Not sure on what basis.

If they do surely Kamala Harris becomes President and choses a VP.


Impeach doesn't mean removal from office. That is a separate thing and the votes are not there.

victrola wrote:
I seem to remember Hilary Clinton making a concession speech after your hero Donald Trump won..


She also called him illegitimate for 4 years

Not looking good for Walker


Having read the link, the ultimate outcome of the impeachment process can force him out of office leaving Kamala in the White House.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:33 am

Incumbent Nessel is leading DePerno for Michigan AG, by 3 points. DePerno is under criminal investigation for allegedly accessing voting machine hard drives after the 2020 election. If elected, he could scuttle his own investigation.
 
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KPTKRampy
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:35 am

Fetterman defeated Oz, good for him, the dude’s been through a lot.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna54935
 
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KPTKRampy
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:35 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Incumbent Nessel is leading DePerno for Michigan AG, by 3 points. DePerno is under criminal investigation for allegedly accessing voting machine hard drives after the 2020 election. If elected, he could scuttle his own investigation.



SoS for Michigan, Jocelyn Benson took the W home too
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:37 am

Whitmer now projected to win in Michigan.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:38 am

This turned out to be a bit of a yawn...

And that's good news. :whiteflag:

I didn't vote, because nothing of note was at stake in my solid blue area.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:43 am

No Red Wave as expected, so we will see what erupts in the days to follow. It's likely that the conspiracy theorists will claim again, that the only possible explanation for losing is election fraud.

Also interesting to see what Trump will do, and if he will claim fraud again in this cycle.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:47 am

Fetterman now called winner by multiple media outlets.

Warnock also lead by <1% but it is heading to runoff most likely.

At the current pace looks like Dems will keep Senate (and if they win GA, AZ, and NV, actually gain a seat to make Manchin irrelevant). Dems is still projected to lose the House, but not at as big of a margin as fear.

Red Wave? Not even a ripple.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:50 am

Derrick Van Orden is projected to win a House
seat for Wisconsin, despite being in the crowd on Jan 6. However he did not deny or question the election results.
 
astuteman
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:00 am

BN747 wrote:
In Colorado, Boobert is circling the drain....uh oh!

BN747


Appropriate IMO.
Haven't got involved as much as you guys have, as its not my country.

But it doesn't matter how pretty the toilet paper that wraps it is.
A piece of s**t is still a piece of s**t, and the drain is where it belongs

Rgds
 
BN747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:03 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Fetterman now called winner by multiple media outlets.

Warnock also lead by <1% but it is heading to runoff most likely.

At the current pace looks like Dems will keep Senate (and if they win GA, AZ, and NV, actually gain a seat to make Manchin irrelevant). Dems is still projected to lose the House, but not at as big of a margin as fear.

Red Wave? Not even a ripple.


A Red-Face Plant...I sensed a very strong rebellious vibe while standing in (my 30 min wait) line today..I apparently, the Save Democracy message resonated across the country.

...and tons of mail ballots outstanding.

BN747
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:31 am

Gabriel Sterling calls another Senate runoff in Georgia, between Walker and Warnock.

Warnock has been through this before, so hopefully has the campaign in place to do well.
 
flyguy89
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:12 am

astuteman wrote:
BN747 wrote:
In Colorado, Boobert is circling the drain....uh oh!

BN747


Appropriate IMO.
Haven't got involved as much as you guys have, as its not my country.

But it doesn't matter how pretty the toilet paper that wraps it is.
A piece of s**t is still a piece of s**t, and the drain is where it belongs

Rgds

Oh I really hope she does lose…that would just be delicious. I didn’t even know that was a competitive race.

Very pleasantly surprised to see Lake doing so poorly. Still many votes outstanding so things could yet change, but I’ll very interested to see what transpires with the Arizona GOP if she loses. Arizona is a solidly center-right state so the GOP should be doing far better there than it has been the past few years…but the state GOP party is just absolutely nuts with nothing but failure to show for it. There has to be a coming reckoning there at some point.
 
jetwet1
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:33 am

BN747 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Fetterman now called winner by multiple media outlets.

Warnock also lead by <1% but it is heading to runoff most likely.

At the current pace looks like Dems will keep Senate (and if they win GA, AZ, and NV, actually gain a seat to make Manchin irrelevant). Dems is still projected to lose the House, but not at as big of a margin as fear.

Red Wave? Not even a ripple.


A Red-Face Plant...I sensed a very strong rebellious vibe while standing in (my 30 min wait) line today..I apparently, the Save Democracy message resonated across the country.

...and tons of mail ballots outstanding.

BN747


I think you will find, when the smoke clears it wasn't "save democracy ", it will be a record number of young women voting and the cause is the overturning Roe v Wade.

The GOP should have taken this election in a landslide, instead they managed to get tue young voting.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:49 am

If Boebert loses, that will be a spectacular upset. FiveThirtyEight had her at 97:100 to win. Her opponent said he just had a "calm belief" that moderate Republicans were fed up with her behavior. Looks like he was right, even if she squeaks out a victory.
 
M564038
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:09 am

Hope the GOP still has enough crazies elected to manage to firmly pull the trigger with the gun aiming towards their own foot, over and over and over again the next few years.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:19 am

M564038 wrote:
Hope the GOP still has enough crazies elected to manage to firmly pull the trigger with the gun aiming towards their own foot, over and over and over again the next few years.


They haven’t officially told Trump to get lost yet, and that’s crazy enough.

Especially now that DeSantis has clearly shown he can capture independent voters better than Trump, Trump’s new threats against him are just silly. Oh noo he’s going to expose stuff from DeSantis’s past? Like what? Parties with teen girls in his 20s? DeSantis can just turn around and ask Trump about Epstein Island travel logs. Much popcorn will be popped...
 
BN747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:35 am

jetwet1 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Fetterman now called winner by multiple media outlets.

Warnock also lead by <1% but it is heading to runoff most likely.

At the current pace looks like Dems will keep Senate (and if they win GA, AZ, and NV, actually gain a seat to make Manchin irrelevant). Dems is still projected to lose the House, but not at as big of a margin as fear.

Red Wave? Not even a ripple.


A Red-Face Plant...I sensed a very strong rebellious vibe while standing in (my 30 min wait) line today..I apparently, the Save Democracy message resonated across the country.

...and tons of mail ballots outstanding.

BN747


I think you will find, when the smoke clears it wasn't "save democracy ", it will be a record number of young women voting and the cause is the overturning Roe v Wade.

The GOP should have taken this election in a landslide, instead they managed to get tue young voting.


No question Roe was the #1 compelling issue along with a massive turnout of the Youth vote and that is where I think the save Democracy played strong.
Those young people want their share of inherent rights, body autonomy, safety from out of control gun laws, thier shot at America...I think many of them were wise enough to be aware of Ukraine and their fight for self-determination.

BN747
 
TheSonntag
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:45 am

From a German perspective, it shows pretty reasonable results. Yes, losing the House of Representatives will it make harder for Biden, but that is the way democracy works.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:00 am

Looks like the Dems can just hold Senate majority through either GA or NV. I just hope Biden tells Manchin and Sinema to pull their heads in and be team players.

GOP underperformed in the House without a doubt. They’ll just squeak out a tiny majority, but one that probably wouldn’t have existed unless DeSantis hadn’t Gerrymandered Florida to give the GOP another 4 House seats.

Time to take the gloves off Democrats and fight. Expand the Supreme court, pass Voting Rights legislation, and even gerrymander more Blue seats in states like CA, NY and IL.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:42 am

I wonder whether Trump will really announce his return now, and whetehr deSantis gives up without a fight. This quarrel will help Democrats, who now need to find a good candidate for Biden.

From an outside view, Biden did really a great job as US President so far.
 
M564038
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:52 am

Agreed. Biden has been doing good work. The economical challenges he faces are the same all over the world and has nothing to do with his policies.

TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether Trump will really announce his return now, and whetehr deSantis gives up without a fight. This quarrel will help Democrats, who now need to find a good candidate for Biden.

From an outside view, Biden did really a great job as US President so far.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:58 am

TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether Trump will really announce his return now, and whetehr deSantis gives up without a fight. This quarrel will help Democrats, who now need to find a good candidate for Biden.

From an outside view, Biden did really a great job as US President so far.


More to the point, they need someone younger to replace him. We need to stop this era of septuagenarian POTUSes.
 
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Btblue
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:20 am

M564038 wrote:
Agreed. Biden has been doing good work. The economical challenges he faces are the same all over the world and has nothing to do with his policies.

TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether Trump will really announce his return now, and whetehr deSantis gives up without a fight. This quarrel will help Democrats, who now need to find a good candidate for Biden.

From an outside view, Biden did really a great job as US President so far.


With respect, you mean the 'Biden Administration'. Biden as an individual, can barely string two coherent sentences together.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7691
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:31 am

Btblue wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Agreed. Biden has been doing good work. The economical challenges he faces are the same all over the world and has nothing to do with his policies.

TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether Trump will really announce his return now, and whetehr deSantis gives up without a fight. This quarrel will help Democrats, who now need to find a good candidate for Biden.

From an outside view, Biden did really a great job as US President so far.


With respect, you mean the 'Biden Administration'. Biden as an individual, can barely string two coherent sentences together.


Still, on the bright side, that's two more than Trump ever managed :)

Rgds
 
TheSonntag
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:13 pm

Btblue wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Agreed. Biden has been doing good work. The economical challenges he faces are the same all over the world and has nothing to do with his policies.

TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether Trump will really announce his return now, and whetehr deSantis gives up without a fight. This quarrel will help Democrats, who now need to find a good candidate for Biden.

From an outside view, Biden did really a great job as US President so far.


With respect, you mean the 'Biden Administration'. Biden as an individual, can barely string two coherent sentences together.


Yes, this administration does a pretty decent job. Actually, while Trump bashing (deservedly so) is a sports in Europe, even he did have some points, like Germany finally waking up and spending on Defence. But apart from that he really lacked the democratic mindset of actually accepting when you lost. This is what democracy is all about. And this election reassures me a bit that there is still some respect for US democracy left in the USA. I just hope the Republicans get rid of the Maga people. I know they wont, but they should.
 
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Btblue
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:17 pm

astuteman wrote:
Btblue wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Agreed. Biden has been doing good work. The economical challenges he faces are the same all over the world and has nothing to do with his policies.



With respect, you mean the 'Biden Administration'. Biden as an individual, can barely string two coherent sentences together.


Still, on the bright side, that's two more than Trump ever managed :)

Rgds


I do not disagree with you on that!
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:21 pm

Yes, totally agree. It somewhat restores my faith that as Biden said, there are moderate Republicans out there who are not under Trump's thumb. Unfortunately Trump and McCarthy have been able to control the candidates in this round, but given the results, the party will want to change that in 2024.

I look for Ronna McDaniel to be a casualty of this as well, given her endorsement and cooperation with Trump and the losing candidates. All his mini-me's need to go with him.

If Trump declares for 2024, I think that will trigger a struggle within the party. Not sure how that would fall out, but while Trump might handily win the primary, he would not fare well in the general election. Too many people have had enough.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:34 pm

Full Democratic sweep in Michigan, both state houses and governorship. First time since 1984.
 
astuteman
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:36 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Btblue wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Agreed. Biden has been doing good work. The economical challenges he faces are the same all over the world and has nothing to do with his policies.



With respect, you mean the 'Biden Administration'. Biden as an individual, can barely string two coherent sentences together.


Yes, this administration does a pretty decent job. Actually, while Trump bashing (deservedly so) is a sports in Europe, even he did have some points, like Germany finally waking up and spending on Defence. But apart from that he really lacked the democratic mindset of actually accepting when you lost. This is what democracy is all about. And this election reassures me a bit that there is still some respect for US democracy left in the USA. I just hope the Republicans get rid of the Maga people. I know they wont, but they should.


I don't think you ever "get rid" of right wing nationalists - a spectrum of opinion exists in every democracy.
The trick is to ensure that they get marginalised before they have a chance to wreck the very democracy that gave then their platform.

There's a bit of me that prays that Trump actually runs for President again, as I think it might bring one of two results
a) the realisation that his cult needs to be curbed and a different brand of GOP presented
b) it will split the GOP in two and result in another Democrat president in 2024

Don't know. Could well be wrong with those opinions
I suspect DeSantis will win out in the long term GOP leadership though anyway.

You talk about Trump bashing in Europe.
I have to confess that I leave the "centre-right" to "centre-left" debate of the US election in the hands of the American people.

But I loathe with a vengeance people whose only skill is to shout and scream incoherently, and who gaslight a rabid following wherever they go
See my comment about Lauren Boebert above.
That's irrespective of the policies they espouse.

The only saving grace is that without it we would have been denied all of those outstanding YT videos that Jordan Klepper has made.
Staggeringly painful, but staggeringly funny, in a rather sinister way

I watch the YT videos of Barack Obama at the Correspondents Dinners (would love to see one of Trump attending as President, but haven't found one yet..), and the guy is just so savvy, smooth, slides the knife in without the victim even knowing, and is more than happy to play up his own shortcomings, is happy to recognise and respect his opponents, and recognises the value that the press bring to a free democracy.
That's what a politician looks like in my book.
Very, very telling that John McCain asked for him to do his Eulogy at his funeral.
None of the above to do with Obama's political leanings either.

I wonder what invitations Trump will get?

Rgds
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:41 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether Trump will really announce his return now, and whetehr deSantis gives up without a fight. This quarrel will help Democrats, who now need to find a good candidate for Biden.

From an outside view, Biden did really a great job as US President so far.


I think he's almost as bad as the twit he replaced. He surely can't stand for another term, he's clearly not firing on all cylinders, he's a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

Age limits, clearly after Reagan, Biden and the Orange man voters in the US must realise age limits need to be in place for officials elected to higher office. .
 
bennett123
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:13 pm

Suspect the Democrats will be hoping that Trump and De Santis run against each other.
 
luckyone
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:32 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Suspect the Democrats will be hoping that Trump and De Santis run against each other.

Such a display would be bad for the GOP. But it would be immensely good theater. And one gets the sense that Trump knows it could be a problem.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:43 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Suspect the Democrats will be hoping that Trump and De Santis run against each other.


The only thing that will decide that is, well, the two's ego.

Me = If only they throw out a Liz Cheney/Larry Hogan ticket...third party one of course :).

Desantis himself just won reelection by like 20-points. Even heavy blue Maryland didn't went to Wes Moore by that much lol.
 
bpatus297
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:46 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Looks like the Dems can just hold Senate majority through either GA or NV. I just hope Biden tells Manchin and Sinema to pull their heads in and be team players.

GOP underperformed in the House without a doubt. They’ll just squeak out a tiny majority, but one that probably wouldn’t have existed unless DeSantis hadn’t Gerrymandered Florida to give the GOP another 4 House seats.

Time to take the gloves off Democrats and fight. Expand the Supreme court, pass Voting Rights legislation, and even gerrymander more Blue seats in states like CA, NY and IL.


Being team players is a big part of the problem. They are elected by their state to represent their state. They should vote for what is good for their constituents and what the people of their state want, not what a particular party is trying to push. I think Manchin and Sinema have done a decent job at that.
 
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NIKV69
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:49 pm

leader1 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Kemp being projected the winner. Will Abrams concede?


She just did.

https://www.axios.com/abrams-kemp-georg ... 1ee0d.html

How about Trump? still waiting for his concession…two years later.


Well it took Abrams 4 years so.

bennett123 wrote:
Suspect the Democrats will be hoping that Trump and De Santis run against each other.


Trump has to go, DeSantis can win FL and OH so he is viable. We don't need an ugly primary.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:25 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Trump has to go, DeSantis can win FL and OH so he is viable. We don't need an ugly primary.


Trump won't go anywhere - he's so fragile he can't stand two seconds outside the news cycle.
 
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casinterest
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:31 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Trump has to go, DeSantis can win FL and OH so he is viable. We don't need an ugly primary.


Trump won't go anywhere - he's so fragile he can't stand two seconds outside the news cycle.


Desantis is the wrong Hearted GOP smart choice, but he only wins in Florida as it is a state that lives off the rest of the country in terms of tourism, Federal Government, and Retirement pension spending of other states.

Desantis would be just as polarizing as Trump , and as this Election showed, I don't think Desantis has the temperment or policies to actually win.
He also would run a fight with the big donors as they would split a bit with Trump creating an ugly primary.

Desantis and Trump represent all that is wrong with the GOP these days. Abusive Narcissists that think only they can do the right thing, and the misguided followers that just hate half of America.
 
luckyone
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:31 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
leader1 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Kemp being projected the winner. Will Abrams concede?


She just did.

https://www.axios.com/abrams-kemp-georg ... 1ee0d.html

How about Trump? still waiting for his concession…two years later.


Well it took Abrams 4 years so.

bennett123 wrote:
Suspect the Democrats will be hoping that Trump and De Santis run against each other.


Trump has to go, DeSantis can win FL and OH so he is viable. We don't need an ugly primary.

Send him a note. Please.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:52 pm

A pretty terse accounting by Axios of why there was no big celebration party at Mar-a-Lago last night:

https://www.axios.com/2022/11/09/trump- ... ction-2022
 
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casinterest
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:02 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
A pretty terse accounting by Axios of why there was no big celebration party at Mar-a-Lago last night:

https://www.axios.com/2022/11/09/trump- ... ction-2022


The GOP is going to have to do a lot of soul searching. Any Majority is going to be slim in the house, and the Trump lie is not a motivating factor anymore.
 
BN747
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Trump has to go, DeSantis can win FL and OH so he is viable. We don't need an ugly primary.


Trump won't go anywhere - he's so fragile he can't stand two seconds outside the news cycle.


But Most importantly, and those who see Trump for what he truly is.. the free flowing Money spigot is about to come to end. Sure the poorest of Red Hatters will faithfully send every penny they can spare to any cause he states..and he'll will take every single penny they give!

He will really try to remain relevant.

Musk's tweet of 'Vote GOP' tanked be possibly did help the GOP get 'what little' they came away with.

And Ukraine is not left to the whims of first class idiot Marjorie Traitor Greene.
Putin's Russia made their desires publicly clear...and they now soaked in vodka...it's going be colder in Moscow than Kiev although Moscow holds the pipelines.

Uncle Joe can relax and retire into the sunset, he did good.

2024? Newsom vs DeSantis - we know how that will turn out.

BN747
 
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NIKV69
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Re: 2022 US Elections

Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:06 pm

luckyone wrote:
Send him a note. Please.


No need he is getting plenty of them already. I can't see him running at this point. He has an ego but he is also smart and it's time to be Kingmaker and not King.

BN747 wrote:

2024? Newsom vs DeSantis - we know how that will turn out.

BN747


Yes President elect DeSantis. Newsom will run but has no shot in the general.

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