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Revelation
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Sun Nov 06, 2022 11:12 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
RIP - predeceased by hand cranking, spark control, air/gas mixture. The passing of the ICE will be even more momentous. The US fleet will be showing signs by the end of 2025.

I just missed the manual choke era. My '74 Duster could have used one, the automatic choke would open too soon and the engine would stall out.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Automatics killed the hand brake which was needed for managing hills. Set the hand brake, put it in gear, release the hand brake as you let out the clutch. Trucks have what we called in the fire service, a trolley brake because it was on the steering column and used for the same purpose. Last time I drove a standard, rented in the very hilly Canaries, it all came back in about one start.

All in all I drove manuals for a good decade and never used that move. Just keep the foot on the brake, have the hand ready to shift, then do the quick foot move from brake to clutch if the person isn't right on your behind, or, if needed, the old "foot on the brake and the clutch at the same time" move. I had a light that was on a steep uphill on my daily commute for quite a while and got quite good at both of these moves.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:13 am

Volvo had the handbrake between the door and the driver’s seat to facilitate hill starts. One hand on the brake, one for the gear lever. Easy to damage things trying to catch the rolling backwards with the clutch. We had a driver try that in a new Seagrave pumper, sheared the axle. Didn’t the fire that day.
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:15 am

I’m in between vehicles at the moment and am slowly accepting that I will likely never have another manual transmission ride again. My last car was an automatic, but my first car was a manual (1986 Jeep Cherokee) and I subsequently owned a 2001 Subaru Outback with a stick for many years. Both were great cars and a lot of fun to drive, but even the used market is starting to dry up unless you can stomach something with a decade plus year model on it these days. Probably won’t get a chance to teach anyone to drive one again, either!
 
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Classa64
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:09 am

I work at Honda dealer, 22 years now. Manual trans Honda's nobody wants anymore, at least not in my area. I despise Auto and CVT and as I have to drive them daily for work I have to say getting back in my Civic Si with it's 6 speed is so much more fun. Unless its a Type R or a Si, we will never purposely order a Manual to put on the lot, no one will want it. The next best thing for me would be a DCT, just for the sheer speed at the shifting and no delay. The paddles in an and Auto or CVT are just a bad joke, its a CVT , what imaginary gear are we going to pick today and they don't take well to abuse. I have always had Honda products and always manual, my wife as well she cant do Auto lol. For most an Auto is convenient and simple and for them that's great, for me its just more fun to do the shifting myself. Autos are what the Manufactures want in their cars to get the fuel econ numbers where they want them to be, best gear best RPM etc.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:23 am

I like driving manuals. One of my cars is manual, and driving it correctly is one of those small successes in life. Maybe I do everything wrong on a given day, but at least my driving is on point, smooth and under control.

It is too bad that fewer cars have them now, but it is like power windows. Automatics are more mechanically efficient now, perform better and it just isn’t worth manufacturing crank windows or manual transmissions anymore. Sad but true. I might just collect 90s-2010s cars and drive them the rest of my life.
 
hh65man
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 am

Last three autos were all manual. In Norge here I had to take my drivers exam in a manual as my license states that’s what I drive. Actually come to think about it I’ve never owned and auto, except for our EV. :scratchchin:
 
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Aesma
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:33 am

Something really annoying is stop & start with manuals. Don't get me wrong I think it's useful, and the beefed up alternator and battery are welcome. However on my Clio I always deactivate it (at every start) because it has a tendency to shut down the engine just as I'm about to enter a roundabout. With my previous Clio it was the same, but thanks to the torque of the diesel engine I usually managed it, but with my 0.9l gas engine, it inevitably stalls, at basically the worst moment.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:50 am

Aesma wrote:
Something really annoying is stop & start with manuals. Don't get me wrong I think it's useful, and the beefed up alternator and battery are welcome. However on my Clio I always deactivate it (at every start) because it has a tendency to shut down the engine just as I'm about to enter a roundabout. With my previous Clio it was the same, but thanks to the torque of the diesel engine I usually managed it, but with my 0.9l gas engine, it inevitably stalls, at basically the worst moment.


This must be only an EU thing. My previous car, a 2012 Chevy Sonic (totalled :weeping: ) and current car, a '19 Subaru Impreza are both manual and don't shut down the engine while in neutral.

When I rented a VW Polo in France on business the thing shut down on me while putting it in neutral while at a light.

Many automatic cars in the US have this feature though.
 
ACDC8
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:33 am

SEAorPWM wrote:
This must be only an EU thing. My previous car, a 2012 Chevy Sonic (totalled :weeping: ) and current car, a '19 Subaru Impreza are both manual and don't shut down the engine while in neutral.

When I rented a VW Polo in France on business the thing shut down on me while putting it in neutral while at a light.

Many automatic cars in the US have this feature though.

Was thinking the same thing - VWs in Canada only have the start/stop feature on the automatic models.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:24 am

Every gram of CO2 emitted counts in the EU. That same car I have also exists with a smaller gas tank (39 liters instead of 45 liters) just so that it gains 1 or 2 g of CO2...

Having the engine stop at a red light is no issue, when it goes green you know you need to depress the clutch, wait an instant for the engine to start, then shift. At a roundabout you have a tendency to not decompose things like that and just shift too quickly, while the engine is still starting => stall.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:08 pm

 
N1120A
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:17 pm

My rep at the BMW Welt said that the U.S. market, ironically, has forced BMW to keep making manuals for the foreseeable future. The bean counters in the Four Cylinder would chop them, but American customers, especially on performance models, insist on them. When I took the car in for the 2000 km service in Frankfurt before later putting it on the boat to come home, the service department was gobsmacked and smiling ear to ear seeing a manual car.

SEAorPWM wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Something really annoying is stop & start with manuals. Don't get me wrong I think it's useful, and the beefed up alternator and battery are welcome. However on my Clio I always deactivate it (at every start) because it has a tendency to shut down the engine just as I'm about to enter a roundabout. With my previous Clio it was the same, but thanks to the torque of the diesel engine I usually managed it, but with my 0.9l gas engine, it inevitably stalls, at basically the worst moment.


This must be only an EU thing. My previous car, a 2012 Chevy Sonic (totalled :weeping: ) and current car, a '19 Subaru Impreza are both manual and don't shut down the engine while in neutral.

When I rented a VW Polo in France on business the thing shut down on me while putting it in neutral while at a light.

Many automatic cars in the US have this feature though.


My M4 has the stop start feature. I disabled it as soon as I pulled out of the BMW Welt and it hasn't been turned back on in 6 years.

Aesma wrote:
Not just EVs will kill the manual, with the new EU emissions standards, ICE engines are still allowed, but to pass they will need to be hybrids. Hybrid means automatic transmission...


Hybrids can be made with manuals. The original Honda Insight was manual only.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
@Aesma,

Hill holders didn’t exist in my day, sorry


Well, you're still here, so they do :-P
 
FLYFIRSTCLASS
Topic Author
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
Something really annoying is stop & start with manuals. Don't get me wrong I think it's useful, and the beefed up alternator and battery are welcome. However on my Clio I always deactivate it (at every start) because it has a tendency to shut down the engine just as I'm about to enter a roundabout. With my previous Clio it was the same, but thanks to the torque of the diesel engine I usually managed it, but with my 0.9l gas engine, it inevitably stalls, at basically the worst moment.


My Mercedes had that, start stop. Could not stand it, especially in summer where in a few seconds time my car would turn into a sauna at every red light. The "auxiliary battery" that controlled start stop function would fail every 12-18 months.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:52 pm

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Something really annoying is stop & start with manuals. Don't get me wrong I think it's useful, and the beefed up alternator and battery are welcome. However on my Clio I always deactivate it (at every start) because it has a tendency to shut down the engine just as I'm about to enter a roundabout. With my previous Clio it was the same, but thanks to the torque of the diesel engine I usually managed it, but with my 0.9l gas engine, it inevitably stalls, at basically the worst moment.


My Mercedes had that, start stop. Could not stand it, especially in summer where in a few seconds time my car would turn into a sauna at every red light. The "auxiliary battery" that controlled start stop function would fail every 12-18 months.


Which is why I’m looking at buying and restoring a W124 or W126 rather than the new ones. A mint C126 (560SEC) was on the short list of best cars ever engineered and no more money than a new E-class.
 
StarAC17
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:29 pm

Aesma wrote:
Something really annoying is stop & start with manuals. Don't get me wrong I think it's useful, and the beefed up alternator and battery are welcome. However on my Clio I always deactivate it (at every start) because it has a tendency to shut down the engine just as I'm about to enter a roundabout. With my previous Clio it was the same, but thanks to the torque of the diesel engine I usually managed it, but with my 0.9l gas engine, it inevitably stalls, at basically the worst moment.


I never had a problem with it when I was in Germany but didn't see a lot of roundabouts that I had to stop before getting into.

Perhaps the engine shuts off after 10 seconds stationary which would have it off for most of a red light period but would stay on when waiting to enter a roundabout.

LCDFlight wrote:
I like driving manuals. One of my cars is manual, and driving it correctly is one of those small successes in life. Maybe I do everything wrong on a given day, but at least my driving is on point, smooth and under control.

It is too bad that fewer cars have them now, but it is like power windows. Automatics are more mechanically efficient now, perform better and it just isn’t worth manufacturing crank windows or manual transmissions anymore. Sad but true. I might just collect 90s-2010s cars and drive them the rest of my life.


I think the automatic is dead essentially as well as all of these cars have CVT's which doesn't specify how many gears there even is. Also if my 2020 Subaru Crosstrek is any indication, having the manual means you don't get the toys such as the adaptive cruise control or the lane assist. Not like I want those yet, every time my brother turns it one he nearly rear-ends the car in front of him.
 
FLYFIRSTCLASS
Topic Author
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:35 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Something really annoying is stop & start with manuals. Don't get me wrong I think it's useful, and the beefed up alternator and battery are welcome. However on my Clio I always deactivate it (at every start) because it has a tendency to shut down the engine just as I'm about to enter a roundabout. With my previous Clio it was the same, but thanks to the torque of the diesel engine I usually managed it, but with my 0.9l gas engine, it inevitably stalls, at basically the worst moment.


My Mercedes had that, start stop. Could not stand it, especially in summer where in a few seconds time my car would turn into a sauna at every red light. The "auxiliary battery" that controlled start stop function would fail every 12-18 months.


Which is why I’m looking at buying and restoring a W124 or W126 rather than the new ones. A mint C126 (560SEC) was on the short list of best cars ever engineered and no more money than a new E-class.



Those older Mercedes bring VERY strong money if they are in decent condition. If they are diesel they go off the charts. There was I think an 1978 or so 300SD with just 600 original miles that went for almost $50,000 or so. Yes a car that old would likely need all the gaskets and seals replaced as well as all the rubber hoses and belts etc but thats a brand new car. A Mercedes diesel (W123 era) are just about the best cars ever made and can go 700,000 miles easy if maintained.
 
StarAC17
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:28 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Automatics killed the hand brake which was needed for managing hills. Set the hand brake, put it in gear, release the hand brake as you let out the clutch. Trucks have what we called in the fire service, a trolley brake because it was on the steering column and used for the same purpose. Last time I drove a standard, rented in the very hilly Canaries, it all came back in about one start.

Pedal emergency brakes, worse the silly electronic ones, are the bane of manual transmissions, to say nothing of their use in a service brake emergency.


People with Automatic transmissions who didn't use their emergency brake often had it seize up when it was needed, you should always use it with the only exception being if the car is going to sit for a reasonable long period of time. Or so I have been told. I always use the e-brake on an automatic regardless of the type the car has.

Interesting note about my 2020 Subaru Crosstrek which is a 6 speed manual. It won't roll back if the car is in gear. If I have it in 1st on a hill and release the brake and still have the clutch engaged it will remain stationary. The only way to make it roll back is if its in true neutral.
 
ACDC8
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:53 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
I always use the e-brake on an automatic regardless of the type the car has

Same here. Most people don't, even when parked on a hill and all the weight of the car gets put on the gear pawl - silly people. I always put my car in neutral, set the parking brake, release the foot brake to put all the pressure on the parking brake, depress the foot brake again and put it in park.
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Those older Mercedes bring VERY strong money if they are in decent condition. If they are diesel they go off the charts. There was I think an 1978 or so 300SD with just 600 original miles that went for almost $50,000 or so. Yes a car that old would likely need all the gaskets and seals replaced as well as all the rubber hoses and belts etc but thats a brand new car. A Mercedes diesel (W123 era) are just about the best cars ever made and can go 700,000 miles easy if maintained.

Yup, those were truly some of the best MB ever built.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:55 am

StarAC17 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Automatics killed the hand brake which was needed for managing hills. Set the hand brake, put it in gear, release the hand brake as you let out the clutch. Trucks have what we called in the fire service, a trolley brake because it was on the steering column and used for the same purpose. Last time I drove a standard, rented in the very hilly Canaries, it all came back in about one start.

Pedal emergency brakes, worse the silly electronic ones, are the bane of manual transmissions, to say nothing of their use in a service brake emergency.


People with Automatic transmissions who didn't use their emergency brake often had it seize up when it was needed, you should always use it with the only exception being if the car is going to sit for a reasonable long period of time. Or so I have been told. I always use the e-brake on an automatic regardless of the type the car has.

Interesting note about my 2020 Subaru Crosstrek which is a 6 speed manual. It won't roll back if the car is in gear. If I have it in 1st on a hill and release the brake and still have the clutch engaged it will remain stationary. The only way to make it roll back is if its in true neutral.


Was the Crosstrek available with a true manual? I thought the only option was the CVT.
 
ACDC8
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:13 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Was the Crosstrek available with a true manual? I thought the only option was the CVT.

Yup, but only with the 2.0L engine - if you want to opt for the more powerful 2.5L, then its CVT only.
 
Noshow
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:17 am

Manual transmissions are more fun to drive from my view. You can rev the engine like you want and use the engine as a brake on long downhill passages. I am from Europe and all the small cars have manual transmissions, automatic is extra. So you get used to manual shifting from the beginning.
It is useful to drive super efficient too. You can "under rev" your engine in certain conditions to save fuel.

Lightweight manual transmission small cars are the more "greener" way to go from my view, not super heavy battery SUVs with rare earth batteries from slave mines.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:24 am

All of our vehicles are manual, my kia crap box, my wifes mini, the pickup, the tractor, the quad and the the iveco truck, every single one. Would I get an automatic? my next car would probably be one to be honest, well it wouldnt have a clutch, discovery sport, Mustang or an EV is what I would get... The only one that I would care if it wasn't manual is my wifes mini as its superbly fun to drive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPIXRv0pgi0) this is my wifes daily commute :bouncy:

Fred
 
Noshow
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:28 am

Automatic can be comfortable whenever you have to spend your life in traffic jams. That scooter mode.
 
M564038
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:45 am

Luckily your view counts for nothing in the big picture.
Manual transmission cars are the least green of all alternatives.

Noshow wrote:
Manual transmissions are more fun to drive from my view. You can rev the engine like you want and use the engine as a brake on long downhill passages. I am from Europe and all the small cars have manual transmissions, automatic is extra. So you get used to manual shifting from the beginning.
It is useful to drive super efficient too. You can "under rev" your engine in certain conditions to save fuel.

Lightweight manual transmission small cars are the more "greener" way to go from my view, not super heavy battery SUVs with rare earth batteries from slave mines.
 
Noshow
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:53 am

Care to elaborate?
Manual cars can be made lighter and use less engine power to start with.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:49 am

Noshow wrote:
Care to elaborate?
Manual cars can be made lighter and use less engine power to start with.


In essence, technology and particularly around control and understanding limits of engineering mean that the system is now more capable of managing wear and limits than a human could ever be, thus a 9 or 10 speed automatic can maintain a better balance between efficiency and power by matching a tighter power band to a correct gear whilst not having to have the added over-engineering to deal with the most ham-fisted driver limiting wear and over stressing. Whilst not as engaging to drive for those who enjoy the feeling and understanding of driving the overall performance begins to meet that of a manual even if not the engagement.

I enjoy driving sometimes but most of the time a car is a tool to get the job done. In my next car I would likely have Auto vs manual further down the list of priority than Apple car play...

Fred
 
M564038
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:54 am

It’s a long time since manual was more fuel efficient!
Noshow wrote:
Care to elaborate?
Manual cars can be made lighter and use less engine power to start with.
 
Noshow
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:18 am

Haha. Truly convincing, again.
 
ACDC8
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:41 am

A car is only as fuel efficient as the driver, regardless of transmission. You can publish manufacturer or EPA numbers all day long, but at the end of the day, if the driver doesn't drive a vehicle in the same optimal manner, those numbers are moot.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 2002
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:52 am

ACDC8 wrote:
A car is only as fuel efficient as the driver, regardless of transmission. You can publish manufacturer or EPA numbers all day long, but at the end of the day, if the driver doesn't drive a vehicle in the same optimal manner, those numbers are moot.


Yes. My grandfather said that brakes convert wasted fuel into heat. If you are using the brakes, you are wasting money and fuel. He was right… minimal brake use is a sign of good driving.
 
M564038
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:58 am

Even with regenerative braking in EVs and Hybrids this is true as something is always lost in conversion. Putting just the right amount of energy to do the job in the system in the first place always give the highest efficiency.

Of course in all fossil cars, most of the energy is lost to heat anyway being the rube goldberg contraptions that they are.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:09 pm

As an European I am always astouned that women driving manual cars is so special for Americans. Nevertheless, manual transmissions are on the way out here, as well. Many young people no longer learn it at the driving school.

We have an electic VW ID.3 and a 2009 Ford Fiesta with manual gear. The change is so dramatic between those 2 cars, in the last 10 years, cars became digital computers. I miss the manual part, but if you have ever driven an electric car, you never go back. Ok, maybe to my VW Bug I had as a student, but that one doesnt count.
 
Noshow
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:25 pm

We deliberately avoided getting an EV as company car two times already, as charging is such a hassle where we live and want to go to. Manual transmission BTW.
 
M564038
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:18 pm

Most places have quite a bit of infrastructure to get into place during the EV-revolution, but the limiting factor at the moment are late deliveries of cars.
Noshow wrote:
We deliberately avoided getting an EV as company car two times already, as charging is such a hassle where we live and want to go to. Manual transmission BTW.
 
Noshow
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:36 pm

The charger per car ratio got worse in my country.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 911
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:57 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
All of our vehicles are manual, my kia crap box, my wifes mini, the pickup, the tractor, the quad and the the iveco truck, every single one. Would I get an automatic? my next car would probably be one to be honest, well it wouldnt have a clutch, discovery sport, Mustang or an EV is what I would get... The only one that I would care if it wasn't manual is my wifes mini as its superbly fun to drive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPIXRv0pgi0) this is my wifes daily commute :bouncy:

Fred


It will have a clutch, just not one you control. :o
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5768
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:01 pm

I'm on the committee for EV charging in our (kinna) high rise condo. I understand that state law now says that HOAs must accommodate requests for charging, but unit owner bears the costs. My initial assessment is that it is going to cost about double what a home owner with a driveway or garage would pay. Paying for the electricity used is also more expensive. We cannot run a line from unit meters in the electrical room, so in effect separate meters for the car. Expensive equipment and administrative costs taken care of by a third party.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 911
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:07 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I'm on the committee for EV charging in our (kinna) high rise condo. I understand that state law now says that HOAs must accommodate requests for charging, but unit owner bears the costs. My initial assessment is that it is going to cost about double what a home owner with a driveway or garage would pay. Paying for the electricity used is also more expensive. We cannot run a line from unit meters in the electrical room, so in effect separate meters for the car. Expensive equipment and administrative costs taken care of by a third party.


Are there any companies, and would the HOA allow, a third party company to install, maintain, and manage EV chargers? Then the residents could go direct with the company to charge their EVs? Just curious.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Automatics killed the hand brake which was needed for managing hills. Set the hand brake, put it in gear, release the hand brake as you let out the clutch. Trucks have what we called in the fire service, a trolley brake because it was on the steering column and used for the same purpose. Last time I drove a standard, rented in the very hilly Canaries, it all came back in about one start.

Pedal emergency brakes, worse the silly electronic ones, are the bane of manual transmissions, to say nothing of their use in a service brake emergency.


People with Automatic transmissions who didn't use their emergency brake often had it seize up when it was needed, you should always use it with the only exception being if the car is going to sit for a reasonable long period of time. Or so I have been told. I always use the e-brake on an automatic regardless of the type the car has.

Interesting note about my 2020 Subaru Crosstrek which is a 6 speed manual. It won't roll back if the car is in gear. If I have it in 1st on a hill and release the brake and still have the clutch engaged it will remain stationary. The only way to make it roll back is if its in true neutral.


Was the Crosstrek available with a true manual? I thought the only option was the CVT.


All the models up to the Limited model have a 6 speed manual.
I made the guy who sold me mine work as I wanted the sport model with a standard which was a challenge to find.

Interesting fact about Subaru. The Impreza and the Crosstrek have the same 2.0L engine but the Impreza has a 5 speed manual and the Crosstrek has a 6 speed manual.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5768
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Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:17 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I'm on the committee for EV charging in our (kinna) high rise condo. I understand that state law now says that HOAs must accommodate requests for charging, but unit owner bears the costs. My initial assessment is that it is going to cost about double what a home owner with a driveway or garage would pay. Paying for the electricity used is also more expensive. We cannot run a line from unit meters in the electrical room, so in effect separate meters for the car. Expensive equipment and administrative costs taken care of by a third party.


Are there any companies, and would the HOA allow, a third party company to install, maintain, and manage EV chargers? Then the residents could go direct with the company to charge their EVs? Just curious.


A electrical firm, think industrial grade, would install the basic wiring throughout the garages. There are a variety of ways to structure paying for it. Then we choose one 3rd party's system - charging stations, metering, and billing hardware/software, probably to be installed by the same firm. The HOA provides the electricity (as it does the gas, water, and sewage system, but the 3rd party handles all the administration and billing), no HOA admin burden. I think unit owners need to access the system via their smart phones. Complication upon complication compared to a home owner installing a system.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 911
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:24 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I'm on the committee for EV charging in our (kinna) high rise condo. I understand that state law now says that HOAs must accommodate requests for charging, but unit owner bears the costs. My initial assessment is that it is going to cost about double what a home owner with a driveway or garage would pay. Paying for the electricity used is also more expensive. We cannot run a line from unit meters in the electrical room, so in effect separate meters for the car. Expensive equipment and administrative costs taken care of by a third party.


Are there any companies, and would the HOA allow, a third party company to install, maintain, and manage EV chargers? Then the residents could go direct with the company to charge their EVs? Just curious.


A electrical firm, think industrial grade, would install the basic wiring throughout the garages. There are a variety of ways to structure paying for it. Then we choose one 3rd party's system - charging stations, metering, and billing hardware/software, probably to be installed by the same firm. The HOA provides the electricity (as it does the gas, water, and sewage system, but the 3rd party handles all the administration and billing), no HOA admin burden. I think unit owners need to access the system via their smart phones. Complication upon complication compared to a home owner installing a system.


Sounds pretty straight forward. Glad the cost isn't put on the backs of those tenants who don't have an EV.
 
Noshow
Posts: 3803
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:29 pm

Would it make sense to put more demand on the electrical grid with so many more EVs charging each night? Thinking about California in the summer and the power grid having been on the edge already.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4857
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:36 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
All of our vehicles are manual, my kia crap box, my wifes mini, the pickup, the tractor, the quad and the the iveco truck, every single one. Would I get an automatic? my next car would probably be one to be honest, well it wouldnt have a clutch, discovery sport, Mustang or an EV is what I would get... The only one that I would care if it wasn't manual is my wifes mini as its superbly fun to drive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPIXRv0pgi0) this is my wifes daily commute :bouncy:

Fred


It will have a clutch, just not one you control. :o
This is very true! We just take humans out of the loop to make it more reliable.

Fred
 
M564038
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:15 pm

EVs don’t put that much extra strain on the grid (about 130W per EV continously on average).

I am on a «comitee» myself, we currently have about 200-250 EVs on our system. Demand is the highest in the late afternoon. We automatically turn down the Amps of the chargers in that period to reduce the contious demand and spread throughout the evening.
On my app I can see demand per car/unit and make individual changes if needed.
So each car usually get 16 A in the afternoon and 32A at night. (@230 Volt)
Demand is very low during the night.

These is a pretty normal system. By law, everyone in the housing unit needs to share the cost of the main installation, and each user pays for their individual charger installation and electricity.

If I need faster charging, there is a total of 25 fast chargers within a couple of Km. I try avoiding those at today’s electricity prices.

Noshow wrote:
Would it make sense to put more demand on the electrical grid with so many more EVs charging each night? Thinking about California in the summer and the power grid having been on the edge already.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I'm on the committee for EV charging in our (kinna) high rise condo. I understand that state law now says that HOAs must accommodate requests for charging, but unit owner bears the costs. My initial assessment is that it is going to cost about double what a home owner with a driveway or garage would pay. Paying for the electricity used is also more expensive. We cannot run a line from unit meters in the electrical room, so in effect separate meters for the car. Expensive equipment and administrative costs taken care of by a third party.


I live in a 50 year old condo in Burlington, Ontario. I rent so I am not on the board or could be. The building is too old to bill electricity to each unit thus pretty high condo fees.
One resident does have a charging station. According the condo corp. most recent Newsletter it costed the resident $5,000 to install and the electricity for the charging station is billed separately to the resident.

My brother lives in townhouse and an electrician (a family friend) did a 240V line into his garage for $400. That is less than 10%.

This might be something you are dealing with in a condo as there are a group of Karen's in my building who lost their collective s*it even after the cost was communicated to the residents.
This got so bad our management company fired us (there were some other issues but minor ones).

However this is something that is going to have to accommodated for at least few parking spots over the next few years. I wonder with you if it has been tense.
 
M564038
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:48 pm

It has been tense, as the board has consisted of older persons sceptical towards anything new.
Electricity metering is automatically fes from each charging station to a central unit reporting to the electricity company (All meters in the country was changed a few years back and reports continously theough the mobile network).

We have 200 parking spaces left to wire up outside, and the (conservative) board is tempted to write a contract with a company to do the whole thing with very little money up front, recouping the cost from extremely high charging prices many, many years ahead. It would be an idiotic agreement, but very tempting for the board to make the numbers look good short-term.
Us younger people will have to fight it.

StarAC17 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I'm on the committee for EV charging in our (kinna) high rise condo. I understand that state law now says that HOAs must accommodate requests for charging, but unit owner bears the costs. My initial assessment is that it is going to cost about double what a home owner with a driveway or garage would pay. Paying for the electricity used is also more expensive. We cannot run a line from unit meters in the electrical room, so in effect separate meters for the car. Expensive equipment and administrative costs taken care of by a third party.


I live in a 50 year old condo in Burlington, Ontario. I rent so I am not on the board or could be. The building is too old to bill electricity to each unit thus pretty high condo fees.
One resident does have a charging station. According the condo corp. most recent Newsletter it costed the resident $5,000 to install and the electricity for the charging station is billed separately to the resident.

My brother lives in townhouse and an electrician (a family friend) did a 240V line into his garage for $400. That is less than 10%.

This might be something you are dealing with in a condo as there are a group of Karen's in my building who lost their collective s*it even after the cost was communicated to the residents.
This got so bad our management company fired us (there were some other issues but minor ones).

However this is something that is going to have to accommodated for at least few parking spots over the next few years. I wonder with you if it has been tense.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5768
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:21 pm

Keep in mind that code requirements are a lot higher for ligh rise/underground garages
 
M564038
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:22 pm

These codes varies wildly from country to country.
For instance, we are not allowed to charge by regular outlets a part from emergencies, anymore. Our IT power supply system also increases complexity, as an extra circuit breaker installation is required to make it a «quasi-TT» supply that brings down the reliability a whole lot.
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Keep in mind that code requirements are a lot higher for ligh rise/underground garages
 
AtomicGarden
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:24 pm

I'm fairly surprised for the love of manuals -- specially from US posters. I cannot wait to change my car and buy an automatic, as traffic jams are common here, and my GF barely drives it (even though it's actually hers!). Also last week I was cut off by a major asshole and I was so angry I mis-shifted and the engine stopped, very annoying and shameful :O
 
ACDC8
Posts: 9124
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: The death of the manual transmission

Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:37 pm

AtomicGarden wrote:
a major asshole

Insert Spaceballs reference here :rotfl:

Can't wait to get out of my automatic and back into a manual - one last fun car :cloudnine:

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