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Avatar2go
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Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:43 pm

The Trump legal team was sanctioned by Judge Middlebrooks for filing a frivolous lawsuit against Clinton and a host of other defendants, alleging a conspiracy to defame Trump and besmirch his good name, for political purposes.

The judge described the lawsuit as "a two-hundred page political manifesto" that "contained factual allegations that were either knowingly false or made in reckless disregard for the truth."

To moderators: note that this case is related to the Mar-a-Lago case, as Trump accused the search warrant Judge Reinhart of bias, because he had recused himself from this case. In fact Trump accused the DoJ of "judge-shopping" based on Reinhart's prior recusal. But in fact as this outcome makes clear, the Clinton case had no merit from the beginning, as Judge Reinhart was no doubt aware.

https://www.axios.com/2022/11/11/trump- ... -sanctions

The sanctions include paying the legal fees of some defendants. Also of interest, Trump has another similar lawsuit filed in October against CNN, for using the term "The Big Lie" in reference to his stolen election claims. That will likely meet a similar fate.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-lawsui ... 063250149a
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:51 pm

My understanding of this particular order is slightly different. I understand that the $50000 is a joint and several sanction on Alina Habba,her partner, their legal practice, two other lawyers and their legal practice, i.e. 6 recipients. The legal fees are to one of the 26 or so defendants in the RICO case,brought by Ms Habba on behalf of Donald Trump.

10 of the other co-defendants have brought a joint case against Ms Habba, using a slightly different, but virtually at the invitation of Judge Middlebrooks, covering their legal fees for defending the entire case. This totals $ 1 mn plus change.

Judge Middlebrooks also warned that he is undecided whether to write to Ms Habba's bar disciplinary council regarding her conduct. I think it was the latest case his judgement was particularly scathing.

I know it's difficult keeping up to speed on Trump's legal woes, and who on the legal side is doing what to whom. Incidentally, I find Meidas Touch Youtube is good in that he frequently shows the actual paperwork, or at least some of it, so you can see what is actually on paper.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:03 pm

Thanks for the clarification, I was unaware of the separate actions. It's important to follow up on the merits of the actions brought by Trump, that concern his role as POTUS.
 
GDB
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:22 pm

Trump has abused the US legal system, set up it seems to protect the wealthy, as much as the Scientologist cult.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:59 am

Alina Habba just can't catch a break. She filed a case on Trump's behalf against New York AG Letitia James in Florida State Court. James successfully had it transferred to 11th Circuit (Federal) court, and guess who it was allocated to ? Judge Donald Middlebrooks ! She will probably apply to have it transferred to another judge, but the way the 11th Circuit Court of Appeal are castigating James Trusty (what a name for a lawyer) in the Mar-A-Largo papers case, they may not be very sympathetic.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:23 pm

Trump routinely plays the legal system. As he said in the 2016 debates and afterwards, that makes him smart. But he's increasingly outsmarting himself with poor legal strategy, and losing in court. They will tire of his shenanigans. The DoJ already has.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:51 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Trump routinely plays the legal system. As he said in the 2016 debates and afterwards, that makes him smart. But he's increasingly outsmarting himself with poor legal strategy, and losing in court. They will tire of his shenanigans. The DoJ already has.


He lobbies for what he wants. But sues for anything that makes him look bad.

When he couldn't laugh at Obama's roasting of him that was telling and when he sued Bill Maher for $5 million for a joke then you realize that he he is a 76 year old child.

He threatens to sue CNN on a weekly basis still.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:18 pm

StarAC17 wrote:

He threatens to sue CNN on a weekly basis still.


No longer threatening, he filed the $475M suit in October, claiming that the phrase "The Big Lie" has Nazi connotations, and impugns his reputation.

When a lie is not a lie, I guess. In 1984 parlance, untruths and doublespeak.

Kellyanne Conway was the canary in the coal mine, with "alternative facts". That was the harbinger of what was to come. That moment on TV, which I saw live, is etched indelibly in my mind. Until that moment, I was willing to give Trump some leeway, and the benefit of the doubt as President. But not since.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-lawsui ... 063250149a
 
StarAC17
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:01 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

He threatens to sue CNN on a weekly basis still.


No longer threatening, he filed the $475M suit in October, claiming that the phrase "The Big Lie" has Nazi connotations, and impugns his reputation.

When a lie is not a lie, I guess. In 1984 parlance, untruths and doublespeak.

Kellyanne Conway was the canary in the coal mine, with "alternative facts". That was the harbinger of what was to come. That moment on TV, which I saw live, is etched indelibly in my mind. Until that moment, I was willing to give Trump some leeway, and the benefit of the doubt as President. But not since.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-lawsui ... 063250149a


Has the judge thrown this out yet?
Its only a matter of time.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:06 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

He threatens to sue CNN on a weekly basis still.


No longer threatening, he filed the $475M suit in October, claiming that the phrase "The Big Lie" has Nazi connotations, and impugns his reputation.

When a lie is not a lie, I guess. In 1984 parlance, untruths and doublespeak.

Kellyanne Conway was the canary in the coal mine, with "alternative facts". That was the harbinger of what was to come. That moment on TV, which I saw live, is etched indelibly in my mind. Until that moment, I was willing to give Trump some leeway, and the benefit of the doubt as President. But not since.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-lawsui ... 063250149a


The irony - if Trump were being sued for something he’d said, his cult would be squealing about “freedom of speech!”
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:40 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

He threatens to sue CNN on a weekly basis still.


No longer threatening, he filed the $475M suit in October, claiming that the phrase "The Big Lie" has Nazi connotations, and impugns his reputation.

When a lie is not a lie, I guess. In 1984 parlance, untruths and doublespeak.

Kellyanne Conway was the canary in the coal mine, with "alternative facts". That was the harbinger of what was to come. That moment on TV, which I saw live, is etched indelibly in my mind. Until that moment, I was willing to give Trump some leeway, and the benefit of the doubt as President. But not since.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-lawsui ... 063250149a


Has the judge thrown this out yet?
Its only a matter of time.


Actually, I would like to see Trump actually get a case into court. The sight of whoever he can find to represent him actually producing evidence would be a novelty. as would what CNN would find in discovery.

I am certain CNN could find lawyers better than the idiot who sent the complete contents of Alex Jones' mobile phone to the lawyer for the Sandy Hook parents.
Another prime example from the latest Appeal Court hearings on, I think, the Mar-A-Largo case. Trump's lawyer put forward an argument and claimed that 'everybody knew we would introduce this argument.' He was informed by on of the judges (chief judge of the Appeals Court) that 'everybody was NOT aware that this would be introduced,because it has never been mentioned before in YOUR pleadings, and THOSE are what we are passing judgement on.'

Are people like this merely incompetent, allowing Trump to tell them what the law is or trying to sabotage the cases ?
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:51 pm

VolvoBus wrote:

Are people like this merely incompetent, allowing Trump to tell them what the law is or trying to sabotage the cases ?


Trump is well known for valuing appearance and loyalty over competence. That was the story of his Presidency. It's one of the factors that make it difficult now for him to hire competent counsel, along with firing those who disagree with him (which he perceives as being disloyal), and then not paying them.

Trusty, Corcoran, Bobb & Habba are not of the stature to be arguing cases before the appellate or supreme court. Kise does have that stature, but he was quickly sidelined because he advised Trump truthfully. He was smart enough to get his $3M up front, foreseeing that would happen.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:30 pm

LOL - the Big Lie does indeed have nazi connotations. As does almost everything the ultra right supporters of Trump say and do.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:57 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

No longer threatening, he filed the $475M suit in October, claiming that the phrase "The Big Lie" has Nazi connotations, and impugns his reputation.

When a lie is not a lie, I guess. In 1984 parlance, untruths and doublespeak.

Kellyanne Conway was the canary in the coal mine, with "alternative facts". That was the harbinger of what was to come. That moment on TV, which I saw live, is etched indelibly in my mind. Until that moment, I was willing to give Trump some leeway, and the benefit of the doubt as President. But not since.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-lawsui ... 063250149a


Has the judge thrown this out yet?
Its only a matter of time.


Actually, I would like to see Trump actually get a case into court. The sight of whoever he can find to represent him actually producing evidence would be a novelty. as would what CNN would find in discovery.

I am certain CNN could find lawyers better than the idiot who sent the complete contents of Alex Jones' mobile phone to the lawyer for the Sandy Hook parents.
Another prime example from the latest Appeal Court hearings on, I think, the Mar-A-Largo case. Trump's lawyer put forward an argument and claimed that 'everybody knew we would introduce this argument.' He was informed by on of the judges (chief judge of the Appeals Court) that 'everybody was NOT aware that this would be introduced,because it has never been mentioned before in YOUR pleadings, and THOSE are what we are passing judgement on.'

Are people like this merely incompetent, allowing Trump to tell them what the law is or trying to sabotage the cases ?


Well considering televised court cases are like reality TV why not? Trump would feel at home and I bet CNN will be allowed to televise a lawsuit in which they are the defendant.

If one of Trump's lawsuits did, I hope he loses and the judge makes him pay the defense court cases and CNN counter sues for having their time wasted.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:34 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
VolvoBus wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

Has the judge thrown this out yet?
Its only a matter of time.


Actually, I would like to see Trump actually get a case into court. The sight of whoever he can find to represent him actually producing evidence would be a novelty. as would what CNN would find in discovery.

I am certain CNN could find lawyers better than the idiot who sent the complete contents of Alex Jones' mobile phone to the lawyer for the Sandy Hook parents.
Another prime example from the latest Appeal Court hearings on, I think, the Mar-A-Largo case. Trump's lawyer put forward an argument and claimed that 'everybody knew we would introduce this argument.' He was informed by on of the judges (chief judge of the Appeals Court) that 'everybody was NOT aware that this would be introduced,because it has never been mentioned before in YOUR pleadings, and THOSE are what we are passing judgement on.'

Are people like this merely incompetent, allowing Trump to tell them what the law is or trying to sabotage the cases ?


Well considering televised court cases are like reality TV why not? Trump would feel at home and I bet CNN will be allowed to televise a lawsuit in which they are the defendant.

If one of Trump's lawsuits did, I hope he loses and the judge makes him pay the defense court cases and CNN counter sues for having their time wasted.


What would be even funnier would be for Trump to win, and a jury to award 1 cent damages, reflecting his reputation and the additional damage to it.
 
bluecrew
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:37 pm

If anyone would like to read the original suit, or get a flavor for why they're being sanctioned, this article does a pretty good job and has the entire suit attached at the bottom:

https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/trump-f ... -the-test/

Really wild - it's a pretty demented set of claims.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:55 pm

bluecrew wrote:
If anyone would like to read the original suit, or get a flavor for why they're being sanctioned, this article does a pretty good job and has the entire suit attached at the bottom:

https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/trump-f ... -the-test/

Really wild - it's a pretty demented set of claims.


Judge Middlebrooks called it a personal manifesto of every perceived wrong of Trump's candidacy & Presidency, which he wove into a widespread conspiracy against him. The dismissal of the 200 page lawsuit was itself 65 pages, as it documented all the legal flaws in the suit. It's worth a read as well.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -v-clinton

It's no wonder that such a suit would result in sanctions against the attorneys. It's just a shame that Trump himself can't be sanctioned. It's very likely that the RNC or one of his PAC's will pay all these fees and penalties.
 
bluecrew
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:51 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
If anyone would like to read the original suit, or get a flavor for why they're being sanctioned, this article does a pretty good job and has the entire suit attached at the bottom:

https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/trump-f ... -the-test/

Really wild - it's a pretty demented set of claims.


Judge Middlebrooks called it a personal manifesto of every perceived wrong of Trump's candidacy & Presidency, which he wove into a widespread conspiracy against him. The dismissal of the 200 page lawsuit was itself 65 pages, as it documented all the legal flaws in the suit. It's worth a read as well.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -v-clinton

It's no wonder that such a suit would result in sanctions against the attorneys. It's just a shame that Trump himself can't be sanctioned. It's very likely that the RNC or one of his PAC's will pay all these fees and penalties.

Yet another reason to never represent Trump. He makes his rounds to all of the different attorneys, they get arrested like Michael Cohen, possibly indicted like Evan Corcoran for lying to the FBI, ritually humiliated and sued for a billion dollars like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani. Apologies to all the other hacks, flacks, and hangers-on that I've left out.

Everyone this man touches lights themselves on fire. Pompeo and Pence think they have a future in the party, but they're just so tied to the Trump chaos.

I just really don't understand where he gets this inexhaustible supply of usable idiots from. You would think they would learn the lesson?
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pm

bluecrew wrote:

I just really don't understand where he gets this inexhaustible supply of usable idiots from. You would think they would learn the lesson?


I think it goes back to the cult of personality. Belief in a cult leader is by definition, irrational. Trump is very personable, represents himself as being their protector, and also comes across as completely sincere in the allegations he makes. People respond to the sincerity without critically thinking about the claims themselves.

Of course when you write those allegations down in black & white, in the form of a lawsuit, without the emotional response of the audience to the leader, they are revealed for what they are. Utter hogwash.

I'm reminded of the audience member in the Florida debate, who said he was such a handsome man and she wished he would smile more. That kind of adulation is what you're dealing with. He also gives these people opportunities they would never have on the basis of merit. So as with all cults, they will follow him to their own demise.
 
GDB
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:54 am

bluecrew wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
If anyone would like to read the original suit, or get a flavor for why they're being sanctioned, this article does a pretty good job and has the entire suit attached at the bottom:

https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/trump-f ... -the-test/

Really wild - it's a pretty demented set of claims.


Judge Middlebrooks called it a personal manifesto of every perceived wrong of Trump's candidacy & Presidency, which he wove into a widespread conspiracy against him. The dismissal of the 200 page lawsuit was itself 65 pages, as it documented all the legal flaws in the suit. It's worth a read as well.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -v-clinton

It's no wonder that such a suit would result in sanctions against the attorneys. It's just a shame that Trump himself can't be sanctioned. It's very likely that the RNC or one of his PAC's will pay all these fees and penalties.

Yet another reason to never represent Trump. He makes his rounds to all of the different attorneys, they get arrested like Michael Cohen, possibly indicted like Evan Corcoran for lying to the FBI, ritually humiliated and sued for a billion dollars like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani. Apologies to all the other hacks, flacks, and hangers-on that I've left out.

Everyone this man touches lights themselves on fire. Pompeo and Pence think they have a future in the party, but they're just so tied to the Trump chaos.

I just really don't understand where he gets this inexhaustible supply of usable idiots from. You would think they would learn the lesson?


Speaking of Pompeo, he recently identified in his view, the most dangerous person in the world, President Xi? No. Current butcher of Ukraine Putin, leader of a nation that shows animations of how their new nuclear weapons could devastate the US, Miami being one target they showed? No.
It’s the head of the US teachers Union!
 
luckyone
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:17 pm

GDB wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

Judge Middlebrooks called it a personal manifesto of every perceived wrong of Trump's candidacy & Presidency, which he wove into a widespread conspiracy against him. The dismissal of the 200 page lawsuit was itself 65 pages, as it documented all the legal flaws in the suit. It's worth a read as well.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -v-clinton

It's no wonder that such a suit would result in sanctions against the attorneys. It's just a shame that Trump himself can't be sanctioned. It's very likely that the RNC or one of his PAC's will pay all these fees and penalties.

Yet another reason to never represent Trump. He makes his rounds to all of the different attorneys, they get arrested like Michael Cohen, possibly indicted like Evan Corcoran for lying to the FBI, ritually humiliated and sued for a billion dollars like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani. Apologies to all the other hacks, flacks, and hangers-on that I've left out.

Everyone this man touches lights themselves on fire. Pompeo and Pence think they have a future in the party, but they're just so tied to the Trump chaos.

I just really don't understand where he gets this inexhaustible supply of usable idiots from. You would think they would learn the lesson?


Speaking of Pompeo, he recently identified in his view, the most dangerous person in the world, President Xi? No. Current butcher of Ukraine Putin, leader of a nation that shows animations of how their new nuclear weapons could devastate the US, Miami being one target they showed? No.
It’s the head of the US teachers Union!

I don't know that I agree with him about THE most dangerous. However, having lived through a Chicago mayoral election in which one of the candidates was supposed to be Karen Lewis, then head of the CTU (until she was diagnosed with a brain tumor), I've certainly seen how a labor union leader can disrupt an entire city for their own objectives.
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:10 pm

luckyone wrote:
GDB wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Yet another reason to never represent Trump. He makes his rounds to all of the different attorneys, they get arrested like Michael Cohen, possibly indicted like Evan Corcoran for lying to the FBI, ritually humiliated and sued for a billion dollars like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani. Apologies to all the other hacks, flacks, and hangers-on that I've left out.

Everyone this man touches lights themselves on fire. Pompeo and Pence think they have a future in the party, but they're just so tied to the Trump chaos.

I just really don't understand where he gets this inexhaustible supply of usable idiots from. You would think they would learn the lesson?


Speaking of Pompeo, he recently identified in his view, the most dangerous person in the world, President Xi? No. Current butcher of Ukraine Putin, leader of a nation that shows animations of how their new nuclear weapons could devastate the US, Miami being one target they showed? No.
It’s the head of the US teachers Union!

I don't know that I agree with him about THE most dangerous. However, having lived through a Chicago mayoral election in which one of the candidates was supposed to be Karen Lewis, then head of the CTU (until she was diagnosed with a brain tumor), I've certainly seen how a labor union leader can disrupt an entire city for their own objectives.


I think Xi and Putin are more than capable of doing that.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:54 pm

luckyone wrote:
GDB wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Yet another reason to never represent Trump. He makes his rounds to all of the different attorneys, they get arrested like Michael Cohen, possibly indicted like Evan Corcoran for lying to the FBI, ritually humiliated and sued for a billion dollars like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani. Apologies to all the other hacks, flacks, and hangers-on that I've left out.

Everyone this man touches lights themselves on fire. Pompeo and Pence think they have a future in the party, but they're just so tied to the Trump chaos.

I just really don't understand where he gets this inexhaustible supply of usable idiots from. You would think they would learn the lesson?


Speaking of Pompeo, he recently identified in his view, the most dangerous person in the world, President Xi? No. Current butcher of Ukraine Putin, leader of a nation that shows animations of how their new nuclear weapons could devastate the US, Miami being one target they showed? No.
It’s the head of the US teachers Union!

I don't know that I agree with him about THE most dangerous. However, having lived through a Chicago mayoral election in which one of the candidates was supposed to be Karen Lewis, then head of the CTU (until she was diagnosed with a brain tumor), I've certainly seen how a labor union leader can disrupt an entire city for their own objectives.


I am still not understanding what is so bad about unions. They give a voice to workers in a shop so those workers can receive a living wage, health care, retirement, vacation days, safe working environment among other things. Why is all that so horrible that we have to be against unions?
 
luckyone
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:06 pm

seb146 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
GDB wrote:

Speaking of Pompeo, he recently identified in his view, the most dangerous person in the world, President Xi? No. Current butcher of Ukraine Putin, leader of a nation that shows animations of how their new nuclear weapons could devastate the US, Miami being one target they showed? No.
It’s the head of the US teachers Union!

I don't know that I agree with him about THE most dangerous. However, having lived through a Chicago mayoral election in which one of the candidates was supposed to be Karen Lewis, then head of the CTU (until she was diagnosed with a brain tumor), I've certainly seen how a labor union leader can disrupt an entire city for their own objectives.


I am still not understanding what is so bad about unions. They give a voice to workers in a shop so those workers can receive a living wage, health care, retirement, vacation days, safe working environment among other things. Why is all that so horrible that we have to be against unions?

We don't have to be against unions. We need to acknowledge that they have proven to be easily corruptible and can be used by their leaders for ulterior purposes.
 
Vintage
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
I am still not understanding what is so bad about unions. They give a voice to workers in a shop so those workers can receive a living wage, health care, retirement, vacation days, safe working environment among other things. Why is all that so horrible that we have to be against unions?
From management's POV, it should be obvious.
From a worker's POV, they are often populated with egotistic but lazy schmucks who collect dues but do nothing useful, and screw up the shop floor with crazy rules.
From society's POV, they are a major source of corruption of business and government. Unions and corruption are nearly synonymous.

That said, without unions, or the threat of unions, we would be back to sweatshops and company stores.
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:28 pm

Often said that companies get the Unions they deserve.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:09 pm

luckyone wrote:
We don't have to be against unions. We need to acknowledge that they have proven to be easily corruptible and can be used by their leaders for ulterior purposes.


Same could be said of the organizations the employees work for. But two organizations negotiating for the best interests of everyone will do a better job of keeping each other in check that a large organization vs an unorganized collection of differing viewpoints.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:45 am

luckyone wrote:
seb146 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
I don't know that I agree with him about THE most dangerous. However, having lived through a Chicago mayoral election in which one of the candidates was supposed to be Karen Lewis, then head of the CTU (until she was diagnosed with a brain tumor), I've certainly seen how a labor union leader can disrupt an entire city for their own objectives.


I am still not understanding what is so bad about unions. They give a voice to workers in a shop so those workers can receive a living wage, health care, retirement, vacation days, safe working environment among other things. Why is all that so horrible that we have to be against unions?

We don't have to be against unions. We need to acknowledge that they have proven to be easily corruptible and can be used by their leaders for ulterior purposes.


But why is it bad when a corrupt board cuts hours and benefits for the gain of the board? How is that better than unions negotiating for all workers to have better pay and better benefits? Yes, I get people believe the only reason for unions is to give money to lazy hacks, but unions also advocate for employees for things like maternity leave and child care. When an individual goes to management asking for these things, they either have their hours cut, have their position eliminated or are simply laughed out of the room.

So, are you saying the corrupt system that supports the wealthy elite is better than the corrupt system that supports the workers?
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:14 am

The thing with organized labor and management, is that you have to take the good with the bad.

Working in the educational system, I've seen tenure protect some bad teachers, even some who committed petty crimes. But I've also seen good untenured teachers get the axe for speaking up about conditions in the school, along with board mumblings about "lucky to even have a job". These board members could not hope to become certified teachers, but they hold immense power.

Administrators are even worse, it's just as difficult to convince a school board that they hired an idiot or a jerk, than to get a tenured teacher fired.

Bottom line is that each side protects their own, and it more or less has to be that way, for there to be fairness at the macro scale. At the micro scale, there are still injustices on both sides, unfortunately. And those are what people tend to point to, when arguing the merits.
 
GDB
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Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:19 am

Unbelievable, I post something so obviously idiotic by an idiot from the Trump administration and it goes into a debate about a vital part of the functioning of a civilized and yes free, society!
They are not too keen on such things in Xi’s China or Putin’s Russia, notwithstanding the quiet fandom of the MAGA and their apologists for the latter.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11646
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:43 am

GDB wrote:
Unbelievable, I post something so obviously idiotic by an idiot from the Trump administration and it goes into a debate about a vital part of the functioning of a civilized and yes free, society!
They are not too keen on such things in Xi’s China or Putin’s Russia, notwithstanding the quiet fandom of the MAGA and their apologists for the latter.


IMO, you are falling into the trap of thinking that the UK and US are similar because they speak the same language (more or less).

The attitude to Trade Unions in the two countries are poles apart.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 18600
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Trump lawyers sanctioned for Clinton conspiracy lawsuit

Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:19 am

GDB wrote:
Unbelievable, I post something so obviously idiotic by an idiot from the Trump administration and it goes into a debate about a vital part of the functioning of a civilized and yes free, society!
They are not too keen on such things in Xi’s China or Putin’s Russia, notwithstanding the quiet fandom of the MAGA and their apologists for the latter.


To be fair, the very existence of the Trump administration and the chaotic shitshow it embodied sparks debate on the functioning of a civilized society (or lack thereof).

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