Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
ArchGuy1 wrote:A shooting at an LGBT nightclub in Colorado Springs has led to the death of 5 people and 25 more being injured. The suspect has had a history of a bomb threat on his record. Wondering what homophobic mindset he had.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/21/us/color ... index.html
CaptHadley wrote:ArchGuy1 wrote:A shooting at an LGBT nightclub in Colorado Springs has led to the death of 5 people and 25 more being injured. The suspect has had a history of a bomb threat on his record. Wondering what homophobic mindset he had.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/21/us/color ... index.html
How do you know he had a homophobic mindset. Haven't read that anywhere.
art wrote:CaptHadley wrote:ArchGuy1 wrote:A shooting at an LGBT nightclub in Colorado Springs has led to the death of 5 people and 25 more being injured. The suspect has had a history of a bomb threat on his record. Wondering what homophobic mindset he had.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/21/us/color ... index.html
How do you know he had a homophobic mindset. Haven't read that anywhere.
A lot of gays killed. Isn't Archguy entitled to wonder about the killer's attitude to homosexuals?
TriJets wrote:Isn't "Murder" enough?The shooter has been charged with a hate crime, which makes it very likely that the victims were targeted due to their sexual orientation:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/11/21 ... oting-news
johns624 wrote:TriJets wrote:Isn't "Murder" enough?The shooter has been charged with a hate crime, which makes it very likely that the victims were targeted due to their sexual orientation:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/11/21 ... oting-news
ArchGuy1 wrote:A shooting at an LGBT nightclub in Colorado Springs has led to the death of 5 people and 25 more being injured. The suspect has had a history of a bomb threat on his record. Wondering what homophobic mindset he had.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/21/us/color ... index.html
TriJets wrote:My point was the sentence for these murders will be life imprisonment. Any other conviction can't increase that.johns624 wrote:TriJets wrote:Isn't "Murder" enough?The shooter has been charged with a hate crime, which makes it very likely that the victims were targeted due to their sexual orientation:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/11/21 ... oting-news
I don’t think anything is enough for this guy.
According to international standards, including the UN Security Council, terrorism always involves the intimidation or coercion of populations or governments through the threat or perpetration of violence causing death, serious injury or the taking of hostages.
FluidFlow wrote:Shouldn't a crime like this count as terrorism if it was deliberately pointed at a certain group of people to make a statement towards this group and spread fear within the community?
EDIT: Just to complete my thought:According to international standards, including the UN Security Council, terrorism always involves the intimidation or coercion of populations or governments through the threat or perpetration of violence causing death, serious injury or the taking of hostages.
It seems clear that if the attacker chose the target because of the LGBTQ attendance, his goal was to intimidate the LGBTQ population to further have such gatherings.
art wrote:FluidFlow wrote:Shouldn't a crime like this count as terrorism if it was deliberately pointed at a certain group of people to make a statement towards this group and spread fear within the community?
EDIT: Just to complete my thought:According to international standards, including the UN Security Council, terrorism always involves the intimidation or coercion of populations or governments through the threat or perpetration of violence causing death, serious injury or the taking of hostages.
It seems clear that if the attacker chose the target because of the LGBTQ attendance, his goal was to intimidate the LGBTQ population to further have such gatherings.
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
FluidFlow wrote:art wrote:FluidFlow wrote:Shouldn't a crime like this count as terrorism if it was deliberately pointed at a certain group of people to make a statement towards this group and spread fear within the community?
EDIT: Just to complete my thought:
It seems clear that if the attacker chose the target because of the LGBTQ attendance, his goal was to intimidate the LGBTQ population to further have such gatherings.
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
Wouldn't that still be terrorism then? As hatred of homosexuals as a group is not targeted at individuals it immediately causes intimidation of any member of this group. It would be different if a specific person was his target and the others were just collateral damage, but if the killings are indiscriminately within a certain group it certainly also intimidates the rest of the group.
Otherwise you could argue that a visceral hatred towards the USA or Catholics (or take whatever you want) and subsequently killing as many as possible in a place you know there are many located is no terrorist attack. Using this as a defence would mean that the Boston marathon bombings or even 9/11 were just very well-planned hate crimes.
LabQuest wrote:FluidFlow wrote:art wrote:
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
Wouldn't that still be terrorism then? As hatred of homosexuals as a group is not targeted at individuals it immediately causes intimidation of any member of this group. It would be different if a specific person was his target and the others were just collateral damage, but if the killings are indiscriminately within a certain group it certainly also intimidates the rest of the group.
Otherwise you could argue that a visceral hatred towards the USA or Catholics (or take whatever you want) and subsequently killing as many as possible in a place you know there are many located is no terrorist attack. Using this as a defence would mean that the Boston marathon bombings or even 9/11 were just very well-planned hate crimes.
Terrorism has to have a political component. This is a hate crime.
JJJ wrote:There is a sizeable political and media movement in the US aimed at disenfranchising gay people (marriage/unions, adoption, visibility in certain circles, etc.)
LabQuest wrote:FluidFlow wrote:art wrote:
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
Wouldn't that still be terrorism then? As hatred of homosexuals as a group is not targeted at individuals it immediately causes intimidation of any member of this group. It would be different if a specific person was his target and the others were just collateral damage, but if the killings are indiscriminately within a certain group it certainly also intimidates the rest of the group.
Otherwise you could argue that a visceral hatred towards the USA or Catholics (or take whatever you want) and subsequently killing as many as possible in a place you know there are many located is no terrorist attack. Using this as a defence would mean that the Boston marathon bombings or even 9/11 were just very well-planned hate crimes.
Terrorism has to have a political component. This is a hate crime.
As a minimum,Terrorism involves the intimidation or coercion of populations or governments through the threat or perpetration of violence, causing death, serious injury or the taking of hostages.
phluser wrote:I was reading comments from a few right wing posts, and they have focused it as Colorado being weak on crime (and by way of that, it's the Democrats fault). Basically challenging why Aldrich was able to buy a gun, after his prior arrest a year and a half ago. And, why he wasn't prosecuted and jailed. I read his last crime was a bomb threat but no bomb found and a kidnapping.
JJJ wrote:LabQuest wrote:FluidFlow wrote:
Wouldn't that still be terrorism then? As hatred of homosexuals as a group is not targeted at individuals it immediately causes intimidation of any member of this group. It would be different if a specific person was his target and the others were just collateral damage, but if the killings are indiscriminately within a certain group it certainly also intimidates the rest of the group.
Otherwise you could argue that a visceral hatred towards the USA or Catholics (or take whatever you want) and subsequently killing as many as possible in a place you know there are many located is no terrorist attack. Using this as a defence would mean that the Boston marathon bombings or even 9/11 were just very well-planned hate crimes.
Terrorism has to have a political component. This is a hate crime.
There is a sizeable political and media movement in the US aimed at disenfranchising gay people (marriage/unions, adoption, visibility in certain circles, etc.)
FluidFlow wrote:So by brushing crimes like this into the "hate crime" distinctions instead of terrorism it softens the seriousness of the committed crime and will embolden future actors.
art wrote:JJJ wrote:There is a sizeable political and media movement in the US aimed at disenfranchising gay people (marriage/unions, adoption, visibility in certain circles, etc.)
Perhaps, but what bearing does that have on some nutter (I consider a person who awards himself the right to kill other people a nutter) targeting a particular group of people - assuming he was?
bennett123 wrote:Is there any evidence he was Homophobic?.
BN747 wrote:Kudos to US Army vet. Richard Fierro, giving live interviews all day today, hearing his account of taking the shooter down, disarming him (Fierro did 4 tours in Iraq) then pummeling
but it was the drag queen in heels that ended the massacre with heels to the head, a great image for stomping out 'hate'.
seb146 wrote:You didn't answer the question. The extremes on both sides always classify every little thing in political terms, when many times politics doesn't even enter into it.bennett123 wrote:Is there any evidence he was Homophobic?.
Look at all the Republican leaders out there rallying and demanding laws against homosexuality and the LGBTQ community. From Greg Abbot to Kari Lake to Ron DeSantis to MTG and Boebert and Kristi Noem and supreme MAGA leader and Proud Boys and AM talk radio and Fox infotainment........
When Democrats do something, EVER Democrat must be held accountable but when a Republican does something, blame the one person and not party messaging.
MaverickM11 wrote:FluidFlow wrote:So by brushing crimes like this into the "hate crime" distinctions instead of terrorism it softens the seriousness of the committed crime and will embolden future actors.
Does it? To me the difference seems to be academic but I'm happy to be proven wrong. The actors are being emboldened every day by Fox News and right wing media. I'm not sure the designation of the crime would alter their decisions.
johns624 wrote:seb146 wrote:You didn't answer the question. The extremes on both sides always classify every little thing in political terms, when many times politics doesn't even enter into it.bennett123 wrote:Is there any evidence he was Homophobic?.
Look at all the Republican leaders out there rallying and demanding laws against homosexuality and the LGBTQ community. From Greg Abbot to Kari Lake to Ron DeSantis to MTG and Boebert and Kristi Noem and supreme MAGA leader and Proud Boys and AM talk radio and Fox infotainment........
When Democrats do something, EVER Democrat must be held accountable but when a Republican does something, blame the one person and not party messaging.
ltbewr wrote:Ft Carson is a much bigger installation than the AFA. The man who took down the shooter was ex-military.The Colorado Springs area is very politically conservative, it is the home to the US Air Force Academy so has a lot of current and ex-military, so a lot of anti-LGTBQ and strong pro-2nd Amendment attitudes. The club that was attacked is about the only one in the area that was for LGTBQ's and one of the 'safe' places for them. Sadly we have to note how the national, indeed international attention this attack had plays right into the motives of the attacker.
seb146 wrote:BN747 wrote:Kudos to US Army vet. Richard Fierro, giving live interviews all day today, hearing his account of taking the shooter down, disarming him (Fierro did 4 tours in Iraq) then pummeling
but it was the drag queen in heels that ended the massacre with heels to the head, a great image for stomping out 'hate'.
Point of order: the stomper is trans.
art wrote:FluidFlow wrote:Shouldn't a crime like this count as terrorism if it was deliberately pointed at a certain group of people to make a statement towards this group and spread fear within the community?
EDIT: Just to complete my thought:According to international standards, including the UN Security Council, terrorism always involves the intimidation or coercion of populations or governments through the threat or perpetration of violence causing death, serious injury or the taking of hostages.
It seems clear that if the attacker chose the target because of the LGBTQ attendance, his goal was to intimidate the LGBTQ population to further have such gatherings.
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
SL1200MK2 wrote:art wrote:FluidFlow wrote:Shouldn't a crime like this count as terrorism if it was deliberately pointed at a certain group of people to make a statement towards this group and spread fear within the community?
EDIT: Just to complete my thought:
It seems clear that if the attacker chose the target because of the LGBTQ attendance, his goal was to intimidate the LGBTQ population to further have such gatherings.
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
I’m sure it *could* be, but I’ve a hard time believing that someone simply had a visceral hatred of gay folks and a so much so that he massacred people doing nothing more than enjoying themselves. .
BN747 wrote:SL1200MK2 wrote:art wrote:
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
I’m sure it *could* be, but I’ve a hard time believing that someone simply had a visceral hatred of gay folks and a so much so that he massacred people doing nothing more than enjoying themselves. .
Really? Did I just read that right?
You have a hard time believing that people hold such 'vicseral hatred' of ____________ people,' ...you are terribly late to 'Hate Life' of Bigots, Racists and Anti-Semites.
It has a very long history of just how easy it is to shape and direct the minds of others to carry out acts of lethal violence on a whim.
Perhaps I missed something, but sounds like you really do not understand violent hatred in any shape or form.
BN747
BN747 wrote:SL1200MK2 wrote:art wrote:
Could be that the killer has a visceral hatred of homosexuals and simply decided to act upon that by killing as many as he could at a place where they are known to gather.
I’m sure it *could* be, but I’ve a hard time believing that someone simply had a visceral hatred of gay folks and a so much so that he massacred people doing nothing more than enjoying themselves. .
Really? Did I just read that right?
You have a hard time believing that people hold such 'vicseral hatred' of ____________ people,' ...you are terribly late to 'Hate Life' of Bigots, Racists and Anti-Semites.
It has a very long history of just how easy it is to shape and direct the minds of others to carry out acts of lethal violence on a whim.
Perhaps I missed something, but sounds like you really do not understand violent hatred in any shape or form.
BN747
johns624 wrote:People shoot up heterosexual nightclubs and bars, too. Does that mean that they hate heterosexuals? Just playing devil's advocate here...
Terrorism charges would make sense if no one was killed, since the sentence would probably be stiffer. With murder charges already on the table, adding more charges are just to make some feel good and special.
johns624 wrote:People shoot up heterosexual nightclubs and bars, too. Does that mean that they hate heterosexuals? Just playing devil's advocate here...
Terrorism charges would make sense if no one was killed, since the sentence would probably be stiffer. With murder charges already on the table, adding more charges are just to make some feel good and special.
SL1200MK2 wrote:BN747 wrote:SL1200MK2 wrote:
I’m sure it *could* be, but I’ve a hard time believing that someone simply had a visceral hatred of gay folks and a so much so that he massacred people doing nothing more than enjoying themselves. .
Really? Did I just read that right?
You have a hard time believing that people hold such 'vicseral hatred' of ____________ people,' ...you are terribly late to 'Hate Life' of Bigots, Racists and Anti-Semites.
It has a very long history of just how easy it is to shape and direct the minds of others to carry out acts of lethal violence on a whim.
Perhaps I missed something, but sounds like you really do not understand violent hatred in any shape or form.
BN747
One last point - I am indeed at a misunderstanding of violent hatred and I’m not sure how to understand it. I do try to be aware of it but without being violent and hateful myself, it’s easy to misunderstand
BN747 wrote:SL1200MK2 wrote:BN747 wrote:
Really? Did I just read that right?
You have a hard time believing that people hold such 'vicseral hatred' of ____________ people,' ...you are terribly late to 'Hate Life' of Bigots, Racists and Anti-Semites.
It has a very long history of just how easy it is to shape and direct the minds of others to carry out acts of lethal violence on a whim.
Perhaps I missed something, but sounds like you really do not understand violent hatred in any shape or form.
BN747
One last point - I am indeed at a misunderstanding of violent hatred and I’m not sure how to understand it. I do try to be aware of it but without being violent and hateful myself, it’s easy to misunderstand
Okay, I did read exactly what I thought I read...
And I did see you express that 'you're a proud Jew'...then the above of your having a 'misunderstanding of violent hatred..'...then my head exploded!
The Holocaust, the 3rd worst genocidal, violent acts of abject inhumanity exacted on a specific people (1 -N/S America Indigenous people 2 - African Slave Trade African Exploitation)
1 & 2 - Inhuman Acts of Savagery for Profit (Catholic Church Discovery Doctrine)
3rd - Outright hatred of Jews and other minorities (Gypsies, Nomadic rivalries 'score settling' etc)
Making the statement of being a proud Jew and having a misunderstanding raw naked human hatred at it's worse..tells me you have either avoided or had the misfortune of poor schooling
on so much that has taken place in America in the last 80 years or so.
Americans will have forgotten about the COS shooting by next week (Thanksgiving - yeah,) followed by the Xmas rush then of course some nutjob human somewhere will have to make a big deadly act of inhumanity here or somewhere around the world before 2023 arrives. Luckily young LGBTQ voters and young Gun Violence David Hogg + his league of young voters, will not forget and will break even bigger in 2024 as they did impress in this years midterms.
I take offense to 'a proud Jew' making such a statement on hatred when synagogues are being vandalized almost weekly, idiots like Kyrie and Kanye publicly displaying
their sheer ignorance of a relatable tragic history suffered by Jews because they're too intellectually lazy to bother (Kyrie is still young...but still).
Anti-Semitic fervor is at an all time high right now and Traitor Trump isn't helping.
Also, I've had to part with a group of older Jewish guys (60s-80s) I'd meet up with to discuss geopolitical issues.politics.
I made that decision because they appear to be like yourself and are unaware of pervasive Jewish threats, online and around the corner...while a few younger Jewish friends are more militant in thier attitudes. I would think that 'most' of the older guys would know better.
Violent Hatred...it's real.
BN747
SL1200MK2 wrote:Obviously I’ve offended you but I don’t think this is a good place to discuss what has become personal.
In any case, if you’d ever like to discuss, you can send me a personal message here because I think first, I like to hear your point of view and second, I’d like to defend myself as well.
Regards
Redd wrote:Aldrich identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns, according to their attorney.
It'll be interesting to see if this is genuine.
https://www.axios.com/2022/11/23/colora ... orneys-say
seb146 wrote:Well, he also threatened to kill his mother, so where does that fit in to your tidy little worldview?johns624 wrote:People shoot up heterosexual nightclubs and bars, too. Does that mean that they hate heterosexuals? Just playing devil's advocate here...
Terrorism charges would make sense if no one was killed, since the sentence would probably be stiffer. With murder charges already on the table, adding more charges are just to make some feel good and special.
Where is the hate filled rhetoric against heterosexuals? The calls by liberal talking heads that heterosexuals are grooming children and forcing children to be heterosexual? Where are the lawmakers demanding CPS be called when children are being read to by heterosexuals?
johns624 wrote:seb146 wrote:Well, he also threatened to kill his mother, so where does that fit in to your tidy little worldview?johns624 wrote:People shoot up heterosexual nightclubs and bars, too. Does that mean that they hate heterosexuals? Just playing devil's advocate here...
Terrorism charges would make sense if no one was killed, since the sentence would probably be stiffer. With murder charges already on the table, adding more charges are just to make some feel good and special.
Where is the hate filled rhetoric against heterosexuals? The calls by liberal talking heads that heterosexuals are grooming children and forcing children to be heterosexual? Where are the lawmakers demanding CPS be called when children are being read to by heterosexuals?
This situation is a perfect example of people trying to politicize everything. Some people point to his grandfather being a GOP politician so inferring that he must've been a hateful conservative. Then his lawyers say he was "nonbinary", which would make him a "self loathing" gay person. It might be one, it might be the other, or it could be "neither".