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ArchGuy1
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Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:32 pm

A few days ago, the State Duma in Russia approved a law that prohibits the promotion of homosexual relationships or suggesting normalcy for people of all age. This expands a law that prohibits the same things toward minors that was passed in 2013. Heavy fines will be imposed on individuals violating this law and in addition to fines, foreigners can be jailed for up to 15 days and deported. This is a law that makes life for LGBT people and people supporting them in Russia a nightmare.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/24/europe/r ... index.html
 
luckyone
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm

Focus on the boogeyman instead of their real problems.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:07 pm

This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.
 
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seb146
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:21 pm

I have been genuinely curious about something and I will try to be as delicate as possible, given the subject:

There have been many, many "adult" videos from Russia of adult Russian men having relations with each other. How does the Russian government justify that under strict, and now stricter, anti-LGBTQ laws?
 
luckyone
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
I have been genuinely curious about something and I will try to be as delicate as possible, given the subject:

There have been many, many "adult" videos from Russia of adult Russian men having relations with each other. How does the Russian government justify that under strict, and now stricter, anti-LGBTQ laws?

For all we know the Russian government could own the company that produces them.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
I have been genuinely curious about something and I will try to be as delicate as possible, given the subject:

There have been many, many "adult" videos from Russia of adult Russian men having relations with each other. How does the Russian government justify that under strict, and now stricter, anti-LGBTQ laws?


Simple: they're in the closet. :stirthepot:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
I have been genuinely curious about something and I will try to be as delicate as possible, given the subject:

There have been many, many "adult" videos from Russia of adult Russian men having relations with each other. How does the Russian government justify that under strict, and now stricter, anti-LGBTQ laws?


Russia isn't a state with a rule of law, like in a liberal democracy. Russia is an autocracy with a lot of arbitrariness. So these kinds of laws will be used two-fold: point to the boogyman and distract from the real problems (heck Ukraine war itself is a distraction), and secondly: get rid of people not willing to cooperate with the regime.
 
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seb146
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I have been genuinely curious about something and I will try to be as delicate as possible, given the subject:

There have been many, many "adult" videos from Russia of adult Russian men having relations with each other. How does the Russian government justify that under strict, and now stricter, anti-LGBTQ laws?


Russia isn't a state with a rule of law, like in a liberal democracy. Russia is an autocracy with a lot of arbitrariness. So these kinds of laws will be used two-fold: point to the boogyman and distract from the real problems (heck Ukraine war itself is a distraction), and secondly: get rid of people not willing to cooperate with the regime.


I was asking more because of Iran claiming there are no gays there. It seems the government leaders in Russia see LGBTQ people as a threat to their own narrow views of masculinity. I know the reason Iran outlaws homosexuality is religious based, but I still am curious. How can these young men do these things clearly against the government and the government seemingly look the other way?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:30 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:34 am

seb146 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I have been genuinely curious about something and I will try to be as delicate as possible, given the subject:

There have been many, many "adult" videos from Russia of adult Russian men having relations with each other. How does the Russian government justify that under strict, and now stricter, anti-LGBTQ laws?


Russia isn't a state with a rule of law, like in a liberal democracy. Russia is an autocracy with a lot of arbitrariness. So these kinds of laws will be used two-fold: point to the boogyman and distract from the real problems (heck Ukraine war itself is a distraction), and secondly: get rid of people not willing to cooperate with the regime.


I was asking more because of Iran claiming there are no gays there. It seems the government leaders in Russia see LGBTQ people as a threat to their own narrow views of masculinity. I know the reason Iran outlaws homosexuality is religious based, but I still am curious. How can these young men do these things clearly against the government and the government seemingly look the other way?


It may sound strange in our eyes, but remember that being a homosexual was against the law in the time of my grandparents, so not too long ago. And still, some groups in the Netherlands, religious of course - Christian and Muslims - still outcast guys.

On the point of looking away, I think I have answered that one on being not a state with a rule of law.
 
GDB
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:00 am

Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


If they want to join the EU, which they do, that will have to change.
Besides, I don’t know the current Ukrainian leader’s views on these issues though given his background, his prior career, I can hazard a guess.
Whatever reforms were or were not going on, or being resisted, was somewhat interrupted in February, actually they’ve been fighting a war on their territory for 8 years.
Not a Russian aligned oligarch, or even a non Russian one, this unusual President.

A lot of comparisons have been made with the struggle in WW2, after that massive social reforms were undertaken, certainly in the UK and elsewhere in Western Europe.
The East? Well they didn’t get the choice did they?

Like most ex Soviet Republics, the first leaders were former Communist Party officials who saw which way the wind was blowing and changed hats but not their practices.
Since the Oligarchs emerged way before the USSR collapsed, they were also those who then still had the power, within the Communist Party.
I recommend the TraumaZone films I linked a few pages back for more on this.
 
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seb146
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


Gay people have more rights in one country than the other. Not full equality, but which do you think is better for us? The country cancelling us or the country tolerating us and giving us the bare minimum?
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:28 pm

GDB wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


If they want to join the EU, which they do, that will have to change.
Besides, I don’t know the current Ukrainian leader’s views on these issues though given his background, his prior career, I can hazard a guess.
Whatever reforms were or were not going on, or being resisted, was somewhat interrupted in February, actually they’ve been fighting a war on their territory for 8 years.
Not a Russian aligned oligarch, or even a non Russian one, this unusual President.

A lot of comparisons have been made with the struggle in WW2, after that massive social reforms were undertaken, certainly in the UK and elsewhere in Western Europe.
The East? Well they didn’t get the choice did they?

Like most ex Soviet Republics, the first leaders were former Communist Party officials who saw which way the wind was blowing and changed hats but not their practices.
Since the Oligarchs emerged way before the USSR collapsed, they were also those who then still had the power, within the Communist Party.
I recommend the TraumaZone films I linked a few pages back for more on this.


Italy, Poland, and Hungary all do the same thing with their LGBT population, but they are all in the EU (not sure about Hungary's future though).

Therefore, I don't see this being an issue with Ukraine.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting

You are aware of the term "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Yes?

Tugg
 
bluecrew
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:14 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting

You are aware of the term "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Yes?

Tugg

There was actually a really great Vox interview with a gay Ukrainian soldier, he and his partner signed up for the TDF when the war started. He describes the pride parade the year before the invasion, how it was small but supportively attended, and from 6 months on the front (this was back in September), anecdotes and stories from his unit.
Unsurprisingly, they're fine with him. Why? Because the Russians are there to kill everyone.

Could easily have the same effect as WW2 on segregation in the armed forces did.

I'd also really like to know why we're still doing whataboutism by comparing Ukraine to a murderous, tyrannical dictatorship that commits casual war crimes, reminiscent of this area circa 1941.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


Gay people have more rights in one country than the other. Not full equality, but which do you think is better for us? The country cancelling us or the country tolerating us and giving us the bare minimum?


Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:31 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Gay people have more rights in one country than the other. Not full equality, but which do you think is better for us? The country cancelling us or the country tolerating us and giving us the bare minimum?


Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.

Experts? What is that supposed to mean?

And for the first part of you response, here's another one for you:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

- by Pastor Martin Niemöller

You may deny it is your problem but in reality it is.

Tugg
 
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seb146
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:50 am

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


Gay people have more rights in one country than the other. Not full equality, but which do you think is better for us? The country cancelling us or the country tolerating us and giving us the bare minimum?


Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.


As a member of a targeted group, I am an expert.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:04 am

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Gay people have more rights in one country than the other. Not full equality, but which do you think is better for us? The country cancelling us or the country tolerating us and giving us the bare minimum?


Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.


As a member of a targeted group, I am an expert.


As a member of that group I'm sure you don't travel to countries who have an issue with your orientation, and if you do you're not running around with rainbow flags inviting people to beat you up or worse.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:15 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Gay people have more rights in one country than the other. Not full equality, but which do you think is better for us? The country cancelling us or the country tolerating us and giving us the bare minimum?


Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.

Experts? What is that supposed to mean?

And for the first part of you response, here's another one for you:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

- by Pastor Martin Niemöller

You may deny it is your problem but in reality it is.

Tugg


I was wondering when someone would trot out that old trope. Luckly for me I am none of the above and never lived in 1930's Germany.

Lets not forget that Niemöller was a U boat Ace in WW1 who was awarded an Iron Cross and was anti semetic.

Niemöller's ambivalent and often contradictory behaviour during the Nazi period makes him a controversial figure among those who opposed the Nazis. Even his motives are disputed. Historian Raimund Lammersdorf considers Niemöller "an opportunist who had no quarrel with Hitler politically and only began to oppose the Nazis when Hitler threatened to attack the churches"

Niemöller's behaviour contrasts sharply with the much more broad-minded attitudes of other Confessing Church activists such as Hermann Maas. Pastor and liberal politician Maas—unlike Niemöller—belonged to those who unequivocally opposed every form of antisemitism and was later accorded the title Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:23 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Gay people have more rights in one country than the other. Not full equality, but which do you think is better for us? The country cancelling us or the country tolerating us and giving us the bare minimum?


Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.

Experts? What is that supposed to mean?

And for the first part of you response, here's another one for you:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

- by Pastor Martin Niemöller

You may deny it is your problem but in reality it is.

Tugg


Indeed, that poem sprong into my mind as well. It is naive to think it does not concern someone if he doesn't belong to the specific targeted group. Human rights are just that and need to be observed. Unfortunatelly, this poem remains as actual as when it was written, al those years ago.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:37 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I was wondering when someone would trot out that old trope. Luckly for me I am none of the above and never lived in 1930's Germany.


Hopefully, you do understand the meaning of this poem and its underlining message. That is as relevant today, as it was all those years ago. One cannot look away when human rights are ignored, even though one might not belong to that group that is being discriminated against.

Kiwirob wrote:
Lets not forget that Niemöller was a U boat Ace in WW1 who was awarded an Iron Cross and was anti semetic.

Niemöller's ambivalent and often contradictory behaviour during the Nazi period makes him a controversial figure among those who opposed the Nazis. Even his motives are disputed. Historian Raimund Lammersdorf considers Niemöller "an opportunist who had no quarrel with Hitler politically and only began to oppose the Nazis when Hitler threatened to attack the churches"

Niemöller's behaviour contrasts sharply with the much more broad-minded attitudes of other Confessing Church activists such as Hermann Maas. Pastor and liberal politician Maas—unlike Niemöller—belonged to those who unequivocally opposed every form of antisemitism and was later accorded the title Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem


From the wikipedia page

Niemöller was a national conservative and initially a supporter of Adolf Hitler[4] and a self-identified antisemite,[5] but he became one of the founders of the Confessing Church, which opposed the Nazification of German Protestant churches. He opposed the Nazis' Aryan Paragraph.[6] For his opposition to the Nazis' state control of the churches, Niemöller was imprisoned in Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps from 1938 to 1945


So even your frame isn't entirely true.

BTW what has the fact that he was a U-boat Ace in WW1 got to do with anything? WW1 is an entirely different war than WW2. Besides that, mostly the ideology starts 25miles behind the front lines. As the quote shows, he went from a supporter of the Nazis to someone who actively opposed it and paid a price for that, that is quite a different story than just saying he was anti-Semitic.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:39 am

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.


As a member of a targeted group, I am an expert.


As a member of that group I'm sure you don't travel to countries who have an issue with your orientation, and if you do you're not running around with rainbow flags inviting people to beat you up or worse.


I am sure we can find a minority group in which you fit, how would you feel if you were discriminated against because of XYZ.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:40 am

Kiwirob wrote:

So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


Ukraine has legal LGBT employment discrimination protections.

Ukraine was the only East Slavic nation to support the UN 2011 Declaration of LGBT rights

Zelenskyy has said that Same Sex Marriage will be looked at post wars

Lesbians are allowed to access IVF treatment

Transgender people can legally change their name to reflect their gender identity

There’s an LGBT unit of the Ukrainian Army that has a pink unicorn as it’s emblem

Laws to prohibit speaking on homosexuality were defeated in parliament

There’s been Pride parades in Kyiv attended by several thousand people endorsed by Zelenskyy

Homosexuality was declassified from being a mental illness and gay men are legally allowed to donate Blood.

Is it perfect? Not compared to Western Europe. Is it much, much better than Russia? INDISPUTABLY!

Here’s a twitter account I follow from a Transgender American woman who volunteered to openly serve in the Ukrainian military. Why would she if it wasn’t a tolerant society for LGBT persons?

https://mobile.twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV
 
GDB
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:27 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


Ukraine has legal LGBT employment discrimination protections.

Ukraine was the only East Slavic nation to support the UN 2011 Declaration of LGBT rights

Zelenskyy has said that Same Sex Marriage will be looked at post wars

Lesbians are allowed to access IVF treatment

Transgender people can legally change their name to reflect their gender identity

There’s an LGBT unit of the Ukrainian Army that has a pink unicorn as it’s emblem

Laws to prohibit speaking on homosexuality were defeated in parliament

There’s been Pride parades in Kyiv attended by several thousand people endorsed by Zelenskyy

Homosexuality was declassified from being a mental illness and gay men are legally allowed to donate Blood.

Is it perfect? Not compared to Western Europe. Is it much, much better than Russia? INDISPUTABLY!

Here’s a twitter account I follow from a Transgender American woman who volunteered to openly serve in the Ukrainian military. Why would she if it wasn’t a tolerant society for LGBT persons?

https://mobile.twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV


Interesting, I knew it was no Russia, or Hungary under Orban for that matter. With the twists and turns Ukraine has been through since independence, what with Moscow always trying to retain an overbearing influence either by backing sympathetic candidates and when they lose power, aggressive action as in 2014, it can be hard to get where they are on some issues.
Shows what a quick search will do, as opposed to being negative and dismissive about......well everything and everywhere it seems.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:35 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Is it perfect? Not compared to Western Europe. Is it much, much better than Russia? INDISPUTABLY!

Even western europe mostly introduced such laws only recently, if at all. Proper marriage is still not possible in Italy (and unlikely to happen with the current right-wing government). Switzerland passed legislation for joint adoption this year.
 
GDB
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:42 am

mxaxai wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Is it perfect? Not compared to Western Europe. Is it much, much better than Russia? INDISPUTABLY!

Even western europe mostly introduced such laws only recently, if at all. Proper marriage is still not possible in Italy (and unlikely to happen with the current right-wing government). Switzerland passed legislation for joint adoption this year.


Italy has the issue of that fake ‘state’ within Rome.
Look how Ireland has changed since that influence bled away.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

As a member of a targeted group, I am an expert.


As a member of that group I'm sure you don't travel to countries who have an issue with your orientation, and if you do you're not running around with rainbow flags inviting people to beat you up or worse.


I am sure we can find a minority group in which you fit, how would you feel if you were discriminated against because of XYZ.


I don’t think being a [expletive deleted] qualifies as a minority group. :wink2:
 
bennett123
Posts: 11646
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:08 pm

I recall some years ago there was a TV report about this 'dreadful' school which used corporal punishment 30 times in one term.

My Junior School (7-11 years old) normally used at least that much in one week.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.

Experts? What is that supposed to mean?

And for the first part of you response, here's another one for you:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

- by Pastor Martin Niemöller

You may deny it is your problem but in reality it is.

Tugg


I was wondering when someone would trot out that old trope. Luckly for me I am none of the above and never lived in 1930's Germany.

Lets not forget that Niemöller was a U boat Ace in WW1 who was awarded an Iron Cross and was anti semetic.

Niemöller's ambivalent and often contradictory behaviour during the Nazi period makes him a controversial figure among those who opposed the Nazis. Even his motives are disputed. Historian Raimund Lammersdorf considers Niemöller "an opportunist who had no quarrel with Hitler politically and only began to oppose the Nazis when Hitler threatened to attack the churches"

Niemöller's behaviour contrasts sharply with the much more broad-minded attitudes of other Confessing Church activists such as Hermann Maas. Pastor and liberal politician Maas—unlike Niemöller—belonged to those who unequivocally opposed every form of antisemitism and was later accorded the title Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem

Wouldn't that make him an expert then? And you said that is who you would listen to

So...


Tugg
 
SEAorPWM
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:52 am

GDB wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Is it perfect? Not compared to Western Europe. Is it much, much better than Russia? INDISPUTABLY!

Even western europe mostly introduced such laws only recently, if at all. Proper marriage is still not possible in Italy (and unlikely to happen with the current right-wing government). Switzerland passed legislation for joint adoption this year.


Italy has the issue of that fake ‘state’ within Rome.
Look how Ireland has changed since that influence bled away.


Italy doesn't even have most discrimination protections for LGBT citizens. It's really closer to Poland in this regard compared to the rest of the West (yes, even tne USA, which just passed the marriage bill at the federal level).

Ukraine would surge ahead in LGBT rights if Zelinsky ever gets the chance to propose this legislation.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 25147
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:35 am

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Either way it’s not my problem, I’ll leave that up to the experts.


As a member of a targeted group, I am an expert.


As a member of that group I'm sure you don't travel to countries who have an issue with your orientation, and if you do you're not running around with rainbow flags inviting people to beat you up or worse.


We have those issues right here in the good ole USofA. Look at what just happened in Colorado Springs. LGBTQ people gathering to simply be themselves. To feel included in a country where we feel threatened. And it is our fault, somehow, to expect safety and equality. We should just take crumbs and be grateful. And people like you wonder why we demand equality. oops... I mean "special rights" right?
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14613
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:08 am

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

As a member of a targeted group, I am an expert.


As a member of that group I'm sure you don't travel to countries who have an issue with your orientation, and if you do you're not running around with rainbow flags inviting people to beat you up or worse.


We have those issues right here in the good ole USofA. Look at what just happened in Colorado Springs. LGBTQ people gathering to simply be themselves. To feel included in a country where we feel threatened. And it is our fault, somehow, to expect safety and equality. We should just take crumbs and be grateful. And people like you wonder why we demand equality. oops... I mean "special rights" right?


You don’t understand I don’t care if you have rights or don’t have rights, it makes no difference to me.
 
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seb146
Posts: 25147
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:49 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

As a member of that group I'm sure you don't travel to countries who have an issue with your orientation, and if you do you're not running around with rainbow flags inviting people to beat you up or worse.


We have those issues right here in the good ole USofA. Look at what just happened in Colorado Springs. LGBTQ people gathering to simply be themselves. To feel included in a country where we feel threatened. And it is our fault, somehow, to expect safety and equality. We should just take crumbs and be grateful. And people like you wonder why we demand equality. oops... I mean "special rights" right?


You don’t understand I don’t care if you have rights or don’t have rights, it makes no difference to me.


So when your rights are taken because you no longer fit into a protected class, we will not care either. Sound good or is that different?
 
alfa164
Posts: 4192
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:59 pm

bluecrew wrote:
I'd also really like to know why we're still doing whataboutism by comparing Ukraine to a murderous, tyrannical dictatorship that commits casual war crimes, reminiscent of this area circa 1941.


That answer is easy: the Russian "apologists" here are desperate for any excuse to disparage Ukraine...

:roll:
 
GDB
Posts: 16520
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:54 pm

alfa164 wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
I'd also really like to know why we're still doing whataboutism by comparing Ukraine to a murderous, tyrannical dictatorship that commits casual war crimes, reminiscent of this area circa 1941.


That answer is easy: the Russian "apologists" here are desperate for any excuse to disparage Ukraine...

:roll:


I also thought it was at least against the spirit of the rules here not to label an entire group of people, based on their sexual orientation, as being a danger to children, hate speech in other words.
Seems it's fine on Air Net now, well for some.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14613
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:30 am

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

We have those issues right here in the good ole USofA. Look at what just happened in Colorado Springs. LGBTQ people gathering to simply be themselves. To feel included in a country where we feel threatened. And it is our fault, somehow, to expect safety and equality. We should just take crumbs and be grateful. And people like you wonder why we demand equality. oops... I mean "special rights" right?


You don’t understand I don’t care if you have rights or don’t have rights, it makes no difference to me.


So when your rights are taken because you no longer fit into a protected class, we will not care either. Sound good or is that different?


I doubt I will ever be in that position.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 16163
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Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:10 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


That was the same pretty much everywhere until 20 years ago or less.

The laws don't really matter it's what happens in practice that matters. In Russia, murdering gays is state sanctioned, basically.
 
SEAorPWM
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
This is why gays, lesbians, trans people, drag queens et al are taking up arms in Ukraine.

It’s an existential fight for them.


So you think prior to the invasion Ukraine was a paradise for LGBT people, you're having a laugh, it's out of one frying pan and into another.

There is no legal recognition of same sex relationships
Same sex marriage is constitutionally banned
Same sex couple are banned from adopting


That was the same pretty much everywhere until 20 years ago or less.

The laws don't really matter it's what happens in practice that matters. In Russia, murdering gays is state sanctioned, basically.


While Ukraine certainly never did that post-91, I'm sure culturally there is still some hostility towards LGBT people compared to western Europe (minus Italy).
 
ArchGuy1
Topic Author
Posts: 2109
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Russia Expands Law Prohibiting LGBT Propaganda

Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:10 am

The law has been signed by President Putin yesterday and went into effect immediately.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/05/euro ... index.html

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