Well if people vote for somebody like Trump because Biden freed a black olympian, it says more about them than about Biden...

ltbewr wrote:

FoxNews and other RW news/opinion media outlets are going full tilt to bash Biden and Democrats over. It will be seen as and I agree will be one of the biggest political mistakes Pres. Biden will have done as President.

I'm really not sure what else the administration should have done if they were given the opportunity to free her... leave her to rot in a Russian prison?
If the fact that they had a chance to free her but chose not to came out in the future, Biden and Co. would have been crucified by the opposition propaganda even worse than now, and they would even be slightly less hypocritical about it in that case.

As it stands, all I can see are racist/misogynistic sentiments veiled in excuses of 'excess government resources wasted' or 'aiding and abetting a criminal' or other baseless assumptions which, btw, plays right into the hand of Putin and his cronies, a.k.a. the GOP's greatest supporter outside of the US.
The fact is, she was a political prisoner, was used by Russian as a negotiation pawn and was likely not going to survive 9 years in the extremely harsh prison system of a nation where racism and homophobia run rampant, especially among criminals. The US lost that fight the moment she was arrested.

As said above, this should serve as another reminder for Americans not to visit Russia and to their government that Putin's Russia is and will remain an enemy of the USA.

Now I hope they can do something about Whelan too.

Also a reminder for everyone else in the world, starting with Africans, that Russia isn't a friendly country...

Thankfully there is no ‘patriotism’ test for consular services. A black lesbian US citizen that kneels during the anthem is entitled to US government consular help as much as any flag waving patriot. That is a good thing, as much as some around here hate to admit it.

This is a good conclusion. I was worried she would end up with a similar fate as Otto Warmbier who was basically murdered in a North Korea prison for, similarly, minor and duped up charges. Only in that case Trump was actively cozying up to the regime and trading love letters with Kim Jong Un

First thing came to my mind that now every US athlete is on some terrorist group target lists.
Seems like a no brainer. Catch somebody doing something stupid that can be considered illegal and trade him/her for somebody that is ready to burn the world the moment he is out.

PixelPilot wrote:

First thing came to my mind that now every US athlete is on some terrorist group target lists.
Seems like a no brainer. Catch somebody doing something stupid that can be considered illegal and trade him/her for somebody that is ready to burn the world the moment he is out.

Apart from if your hideout is known an you're not a state actor, this might happen to you:

https://www.eliteukforces.info/special- ... on-barras/

PixelPilot wrote:

First thing came to my mind that now every US athlete is on some terrorist group target lists.
Seems like a no brainer. Catch somebody doing something stupid that can be considered illegal and trade him/her for somebody that is ready to burn the world the moment he is out.

? Really?
We got a US citizen back, and if he is that bad of a person, why was he not locked up with a life sentence? He was trafficking weapons. Guarantee that the moment he got locked up someone took his place.

He had been out of commission for 14 years. What happens now is up to him, but this is how the spy game is played.

The two countries also swapped prisoners in April when Russia released former U.S. Marine Trevor Reed and the United States released Russian pilot Konstantin Yaroshenko.

https://www.reuters.com/world/griner-la ... 022-12-09/

The process will continue, and hopefully more and more citizens will be sent back to their countries.

Hopefully Whelan will be returned soon, but Russia apparently wasn't going to let it happen.

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/08/11415619 ... r-released

"I would say that if a message could go to President Biden, that this is a precarious situation that needs to be resolved quickly," Whelan said. "My bags are packed. I'm ready to go home. I just need an airplane to come and get me."

Despite the disappointment, Whelan's brother said he is happy for Griner and her loved ones, adding that "there is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be freed and for them to go home."

"As the family member of a Russian hostage, I can literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays," he wrote. "The Biden Administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn't going to happen."

ltbewr wrote:

It will be seen as and I agree will be one of the biggest political mistakes Pres. Biden will have done as President.

Only among a minority of people who would never vote for a Democrat anyway. For everyone else it will soon fade to a distant memory.

QF7

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout: The ‘Merchant of Death’ swapped for Brittney Griner

The 2005 Nicolas Cage movie “Lord of War” was loosely based on Bout.

“Lord of War” was a pretty good movie.

The bit that most resonated with me was the end titles.

“Although private arms dealers push a lot of weapons, the world’s 5 biggest arms dealers are the US, UK, Russia, France and China. The 5 permanent UN Security Council members”

So as bad as Viktor about is in terms of “dealing death” he’s an amateur compared to the CEOs of Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin.

ReverseFlow wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

First thing came to my mind that now every US athlete is on some terrorist group target lists.
Seems like a no brainer. Catch somebody doing something stupid that can be considered illegal and trade him/her for somebody that is ready to burn the world the moment he is out.

Apart from if your hideout is known an you're not a state actor, this might happen to you:

https://www.eliteukforces.info/special- ... on-barras/

If that had been a US operation there would have been at least one Hollywood movie and after a decent passage of time, likely a limited series on a streaming channel!

As for some of the responses on here, which I suspect is based on the ‘portrait’ of Bout by Nicholas Cage in that not very good movie, undoubtedly a nasty piece of work but as stated, likely near parole anyway, they have the reek of being as much about the appearance and sexuality of the US citizen swapped. ‘Uppity’ and worse.
Was she very unwise? Yes but not deserving of her politically motivated punishment.

ltbewr wrote:

You know this prisoner swap is going to be used by Republicans in the 2024 election ads to bash Biden/Harris and any or all Democrats in campaign ads.I am quite sure FoxNews and other RW news/opinion media outlets are going full tilt to bash Biden and Democrats over. It will be seen as and I agree will be one of the biggest political mistakes Pres. Biden will have done as President.

I suspect it will be a litmus test issue, just as it has been here. And as the Afghanistan withdrawal also will be. Was it perfect? No, far from it. Did it achieve something valuable and lasting? Yes, absolutely.

No one today would advocate going back to Afghanistan. Nor would they advocate sending Griner back to Russia.

Biden will need to maintain efforts to get others out, such as Whelan and Fogel. But Putin, knowing this, will also frustrate those efforts. He can inflict some damage from afar, with the help of the MAGA's and Fox News. Like Trump, they see an advantage in working with Russia against Biden. They just can't do it explicitly.

There is always some hope that the GOP will grow a spine and refute those people. But unlikely while there's an advantage in not doing so.

Aesma wrote:

I don't see this as a great win for Russia though, is there someone on the planet who actually likes arms dealers ? Does it raise the profile of Russia in any way to have blackmailed the US into releasing that guy ?

It fits in well with Putin's multi-polar world rhetoric. The deals Bout made worked largely against the interests of the West and in favor of third-world actors that enhance his multi-polar world theory.

Newark727 wrote:

Honestly I'm not sure why Russia wants this guy back - they'd be doing a lot better in Ukraine if all those ex-USSR arms stockpiles hadn't been raided for profit by guys like Bout.

It's interesting how Putin says Russia's biggest problem is corruption, yet when he gets a chance to act against it, he does not.

mxaxai wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

The important thing here, is we got an American citizen back, from a sentence of 9 years for something that would not even be a crime in most of the US. That, again, is the simple truth.

It would not even have been considered that serious of an offence in Russia in other circumstances. She was given close to the maximum possible punishment for trace amounts of cannabis oil (<1g). Her sentence was politically motivated to strengthen Russia's position in negotiations, far from a fair trial.

And yet, by her own admission, she did the crime. The fact she may have been treated unfairly after she did the crime was made possible by the fact she did the crime.

It should also serve as a reminder for US and EU citizens to avoid travel to Russia unless they want to risk sharing her fate, much like one is discouraged from travelling to Somalia or North Korea.

If you go to any other country, spend a bit of time learning about their laws and customs first.

ltbewr wrote:

The reason why she was in Russia was to make money playing in one of Russia's pro woman's basketball teams. The WNBA pays poorly so Griner was playing in Russia in the WNBA 'off' season.

$250k a year is poor pay? Really?

Maybe if the WNBA could pay its players more money, she wouldn't have there in the first place.

Maybe if the product was more compelling, people would pay more money to watch it.

You know this prisoner swap is going to be used by Republicans in the 2024 election ads to bash Biden/Harris and any or all Democrats in campaign ads.I am quite sure FoxNews and other RW news/opinion media outlets are going full tilt to bash Biden and Democrats over. It will be seen as and I agree will be one of the biggest political mistakes Pres. Biden will have done as President.

His biggest mistake was going out of his way to help his son's career. This is a nothing-burger, IMO.

Revelation wrote:

$250k a year is poor pay? Really?

NBA minimum is over $1,000,000.00. Foreign leagues pay that too. So yes, $250,000.00 is poor pay.

It's the market of course but mostly because so many poo-poo women's sports. Not sure if that is changing but I get the feeling it is as this generation has a lot of girls playing sports. We'll have to wait and see how things go.

Tugg

sierrakilo44 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout: The ‘Merchant of Death’ swapped for Brittney Griner

The 2005 Nicolas Cage movie “Lord of War” was loosely based on Bout.

“Lord of War” was a pretty good movie.

The bit that most resonated with me was the end titles.

“Although private arms dealers push a lot of weapons, the world’s 5 biggest arms dealers are the US, UK, Russia, France and China. The 5 permanent UN Security Council members”

So as bad as Viktor about is in terms of “dealing death” he’s an amateur compared to the CEOs of Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin.

Not to mention - the US and France markedly increased their exports to Saudi Arabia, amid their human rights nightmare and illegal war against Yemen.

https://www.sipri.org/media/press-relea ... orter-says
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr ... di-arabia/

We've probably sold more kit, completely excluding Ukraine sales, in the last 5 years than he did his entire criminal career. He was just another actor in the post-Soviet fall decades of corruption - stealing everything not nailed down and selling it. If anything, Russia should have maneuvered for his release and then executed him - he no doubt did more than most to set the tone for Russia's abysmal military readiness.

I would also find it laughable to describe this guy as a "get" for Russia. He's an arms dealer that unquestionably was replaced over and over again by new fish in the sea, and he's been out of the business for 15 years. It's not like we stopped all illegal sales of weapons when we caught Viktor Bout, but our brains aren't very good at understanding things we don't see, or things that don't get media attention (in the form of news, podcasts, TV shows, movies, all media), so the instinctive lurch is that this will bring back arms smuggling. That industry is still alive and well.

Amazes me the lengths people will go to in this thread to justify leaving her in a Russian prison. It's gross.

ltbewr wrote:

You know this prisoner swap is going to be used by Republicans in the 2024 election ads to bash Biden/Harris and any or all Democrats in campaign ads.I am quite sure FoxNews and other RW news/opinion media outlets are going full tilt to bash Biden and Democrats over. It will be seen as and I agree will be one of the biggest political mistakes Pres. Biden will have done as President.

Fox news is already trying to stir up racial animosity.

Brittney Griner's return to the U.S. sparks controversy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC-TfIPGCg8

There's no 'controversy', a lot of Fox's viewers are racists and so don't approve of lifting a finger to help a black person (can you imagine these same people's response if Putin had put Willie Nelson in a penal colony) we already knew that.

And we could have predicted that Fox would try to use this to create another point of racial divisiveness.

Tugger wrote:

Revelation wrote:

$250k a year is poor pay? Really?

NBA minimum is over $1,000,000.00. Foreign leagues pay that too. So yes, $250,000.00 is poor pay.

If she was as skilled as an NBA player, she'd be making >$1M a year. $250k is in the top 8% of US income percentiles, and this is before any endorsements she has. She's doing better than 92% of Americans. No one is crying for her.

It was never imperative she be released - it was a real option that she just do her time. The echo chambers talked themselves into making this into an issue.

It's the market of course but mostly because so many poo-poo women's sports.

I've watched some women's bball and footie, and it's just not very compelling. The game is slower. Bball in particular lacks the athleticism that the NBA has. Footie is a bit more watchable since the game is more about the passing and the individual moves. I think sports viewing overall is down, except for the NFL. I don't see that trend changing.

Aaron747 wrote:

phatfarmlines wrote:

This was a bad call by the Biden admin. This event and the recent FIFA Qatar beer thread show that people need to educate themselves and respect the laws of the country they intend on visiting.

All this did was give the Fox News prime timers much-needed fodder to bash Biden.

Regardless of what Fox hosts think, it is *always* good to help US citizens in politically-motivated trouble abroad.

Maybe so, but does this give athletes agency to do the same, knowing they could get bailed out by the government?

mxaxai wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:
The important thing here, is we got an American citizen back, from a sentence of 9 years for something that would not even be a crime in most of the US. That, again, is the simple truth.

It would not even have been considered that serious of an offence in Russia in other circumstances. She was given close to the maximum possible punishment for trace amounts of cannabis oil (<1g). Her sentence was politically motivated to strengthen Russia's position in negotiations, far from a fair trial.

This was essentially a hostage / PoW exchange.

It should also serve as a reminder for US and EU citizens to avoid travel to Russia unless they want to risk sharing her fate, much like one is discouraged from travelling to Somalia or North Korea.

She could have followed the Russian letter of the law and not tried to bring that in the first place, regardless of how much or how little she brought in. It speaks of the "holier-than-thou" attitudes some athletes have, and I say that without caring whether she stands for the flag or not.

phatfarmlines wrote:

Maybe so, but does this give athletes agency to do the same, knowing they could get bailed out by the government?

I thought that was the whole part of having to pay US taxes as a citizen, even though you don't live there?
That if in trouble the US Marines will come and rescue you?

Tugger wrote:

Revelation wrote:

$250k a year is poor pay? Really?

NBA minimum is over $1,000,000.00. Foreign leagues pay that too. So yes, $250,000.00 is poor pay.

It's the market of course but mostly because so many poo-poo women's sports. Not sure if that is changing but I get the feeling it is as this generation has a lot of girls playing sports. We'll have to wait and see how things go.

Tugg

What's needed is not women playing it's women watching !

I don't discriminate and don't watch sports.

Well I watch F1 which has no women in it but I would gladly have them (if they can compete, of course). No need for a separate F1, but the below levels are clearly lacking in girls participating, meaning in parents spending the money on their girls doing karting etc. In that case it certainly has something to do with girls in general not being really interested in such things, compared to boys. My young nephew liked toy cars before he could walk, while his sister doesn't care at all, despite their parents letting them do whatever they want, buying "color neutral" toys etc.

Whelan happened under Trump didn't it ?

phatfarmlines wrote:

She could have followed the Russian letter of the law and not tried to bring that in the first place, regardless of how much or how little she brought in. It speaks of the "holier-than-thou" attitudes some athletes have, and I say that without caring whether she stands for the flag or not.

I don't think she had a "holier-than-thou" attitude, I think like most pot users, she thought that the war against marijuana was over and nobody cared anymore, and she was pretty much correct on that point. What she didn't give any consideration to was the fact that she could be used as a political pawn.

Aesma wrote:

Whelan happened under Trump didn't it ?

It did. But we don't blame Trump for that because the State Department declared him a wrongful detainee, and attempted to negotiate an exchange to release him. Same as now, the Russians refused the offer.

Then, the minority party was rational in evaluating the situation objectively and fairly, supporting Trump in his efforts to free Whelan and Reed. Both chambers of Congress voted overwhelmingly and repeatedly to do everything possible to bring them home.

Now, we have the minority party ranting irrationally & nonsensically, and attacking Biden for the exact same thing. Even though US policy has never changed on this issue.

It truly is shameful. I've said before that history will regard the MAGA era as a dark period in American history, in common with the McCarthy era.

Vintage wrote:

phatfarmlines wrote:

She could have followed the Russian letter of the law and not tried to bring that in the first place, regardless of how much or how little she brought in. It speaks of the "holier-than-thou" attitudes some athletes have, and I say that without caring whether she stands for the flag or not.

I don't think she had a "holier-than-thou" attitude, I think like most pot users, she thought that the war against marijuana was over and nobody cared anymore, and she was pretty much correct on that point. What she didn't give any consideration to was the fact that she could be used as a political pawn.

No, she was just plain stupid. In fact she was very lucky that she had the option to be a "political pawn"

I have NO IDEA why anyone thinks it is a good idea (or will be successful) to flout another nation's laws. And getting busted at entry isn't a Russia thing, many nations will do that and will jail the person. And that person will (and as has been mentioned in this thread) sit incarcerated by that nation until they decide to release them. And home nation often will not involve itself.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

No, she was just plain stupid. In fact she was very lucky that she had the option to be a "political pawn"

I have NO IDEA why anyone thinks it is a good idea (or will be successful) to flout another nation's laws. And getting busted at entry isn't a Russia thing, many nations will do that and will jail the person. And that person will (and as has been mentioned in this thread) sit incarcerated by that nation until they decide to release them. And home nation often will not involve itself.

Tugg

She was stupid, but she was also granted wrongful detention status because she had less than a gram, and it was for medicinal use. In almost any other country, her release would have been negotiated, she just wouldn't have been admitted or permitted a visa. Remember she was just entering the country.

She essentially provided the trigger, and the excuse for what happened subsequently. But those events were massively disproportionate to her actions, or her crime. Her detention value to Russia was not in removing any kind of threat she posed, but rather in propaganda and use as a bargaining chip. She was a thing, not a person.

Avatar2go wrote:

Tugger wrote:

No, she was just plain stupid. In fact she was very lucky that she had the option to be a "political pawn"

I have NO IDEA why anyone thinks it is a good idea (or will be successful) to flout another nation's laws. And getting busted at entry isn't a Russia thing, many nations will do that and will jail the person. And that person will (and as has been mentioned in this thread) sit incarcerated by that nation until they decide to release them. And home nation often will not involve itself.

Tugg

She was stupid, but she was also granted wrongful detention status because she had less than a gram, and it was for medicinal use. In almost any other country, her release would have been negotiated, she just wouldn't have been admitted or permitted a visa. Remember she was just entering the country.

She essentially provided the trigger, and the excuse for what happened subsequently. But those events were massively disproportionate to her actions, or her crime. Her detention value to Russia was not in removing any kind of threat she posed, but rather in propaganda and use as a bargaining chip. She was a thing, not a person.

Look, kissing in public shouldn't be a crime either. Nor should unmarried sex or being seen in a same-sex relationship, but in some countries they are and the people are jailed, are these people granted "wrongful detention status"?

I get it, the penalty is far outside of acceptable norms but they happen. And in her case, they did not need to had she observed the laws of the country she was entering. Quite frankly there is a robust underground market for the vape canisters she was caught with, so she could have just got them there. Still crime but less risk as you aren't passing directly through a bottle neck with the goods.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

Look, kissing in public shouldn't be a crime either. Nor should unmarried sex or being seen in a same-sex relationship, but in some countries they are and the people are jailed, are these people granted "wrongful detention status"?

I get it, the penalty is far outside of acceptable norms but they happen. And in her case, they did not need to had she observed the laws of the country she was entering. Quite frankly there is a robust underground market for the vape canisters she was caught with, so she could have just got them there. Still crime but less risk as you aren't passing directly through a bottle neck with the goods.

Tugg

She made a dumb mistake, but I think you're still operating under very naive assumptions about how and why the law is enforced in countries like Russia.

Newark727 wrote:

She made a dumb mistake, but I think you're still operating under very naive assumptions about how and why the law is enforced in countries like Russia.

What is naive is giving the authorities an excuse to make an example out of you.

Revelation wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

She made a dumb mistake, but I think you're still operating under very naive assumptions about how and why the law is enforced in countries like Russia.

What is naive is giving the authorities an excuse to make an example out of you.

Generous of you to assume they need one! I just have a hard time believing that, if Griner had turned up clean, the Russians wouldn't have been just as happy to detain some other American on some other incredibly minor offense to play the same game.

Vintage wrote:

I think like most pot users, she thought that the war against marijuana was over and nobody cared anymore, and she was pretty much correct on that point.

In that case, she was woefully misinformed. Try that in Saudi Arabia or Singapore.

Vintage wrote:

What she didn't give any consideration to was the fact that she could be used as a political pawn.

I can see that - the penal colony assignment was done after the Russia-Ukraine conflict was underway.

Revelation wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

She made a dumb mistake, but I think you're still operating under very naive assumptions about how and why the law is enforced in countries like Russia.

What is naive is giving the authorities an excuse to make an example out of you.

Don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the Russians were making an example of Griner for their own population. Her primary value was as a prominent American they could use for propaganda or bargaining. The cannabis charge was a sideshow, as was her trial and sentencing. There was only ever one objective.

Avatar2go wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

She made a dumb mistake, but I think you're still operating under very naive assumptions about how and why the law is enforced in countries like Russia.

What is naive is giving the authorities an excuse to make an example out of you.

Don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the Russians were making an example of Griner for their own population. Her primary value was as a prominent American they could use for propaganda or bargaining. The cannabis charge was a sideshow, as was her trial and sentencing. There was only ever one objective.

It's classic "hostage diplomacy". Remember the two Michaels? (For Meng Wanzhou the Huawei head) dealing with CCP? Same here and everyone knows that.

Griner was, well, a very useful pawn - having all the demographics that both GOP and Russian hates (Black, Lesbian).

As for Whelan - Russia clearly wants to keep him as a chess piece, and US realized (for now) that they are just short on chess pieces to make further moves.

Now, do I agree with the trade? No. Griner is not worth trading an arms dealer for. But for Biden it's damn if he do, damn if he don't.

Tugger wrote:

Look, kissing in public shouldn't be a crime either. Nor should unmarried sex or being seen in a same-sex relationship, but in some countries they are and the people are jailed, are these people granted "wrongful detention status"?

I get it, the penalty is far outside of acceptable norms but they happen. And in her case, they did not need to had she observed the laws of the country she was entering. Quite frankly there is a robust underground market for the vape canisters she was caught with, so she could have just got them there. Still crime but less risk as you aren't passing directly through a bottle neck with the goods.

Tugg

I think if you consider where these events happen, their motivation is pretty obvious. There are between 30 and 40 American wrongful detentions at any one time. Some are resolved through diplomatic channels, some have been there for years. Here are the countries in involved:

Iran, China, Russia, Venezuela, and Myanmar. This pattern should be exceedingly evident as to purpose. Note that there are strict countries like Singapore and UAE, where plenty of Americans get arrested for ignorance of local laws, but don't end up in this situation.

If you are an American in these countries, you are forever at risk of a minor infraction that could land you as a political hostage. Griner's failure to understand this was clueless & costly. But we shouldn't mistake that for the true injustice.

Avatar2go wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Look, kissing in public shouldn't be a crime either. Nor should unmarried sex or being seen in a same-sex relationship, but in some countries they are and the people are jailed, are these people granted "wrongful detention status"?

I get it, the penalty is far outside of acceptable norms but they happen. And in her case, they did not need to had she observed the laws of the country she was entering. Quite frankly there is a robust underground market for the vape canisters she was caught with, so she could have just got them there. Still crime but less risk as you aren't passing directly through a bottle neck with the goods.

Tugg

I think if you consider where these events happen, their motivation is pretty obvious. There are between 30 and 40 American wrongful detentions at any one time. Some are resolved through diplomatic channels, some have been there for years. Here are the countries in involved:

Iran, China, Russia, Venezuela, and Myanmar. This pattern should be exceedingly evident as to purpose. Note that there are strict countries like Singapore and UAE, where plenty of Americans get arrested for ignorance of local laws, but don't end up in this situation.

If you are an American in these countries, you are forever at risk of a minor infraction that could land you as a political hostage. Griner's failure to understand this was clueless & costly. But we shouldn't mistake that for the true injustice.

Absolutely, and I agree and I don't confuse the situation. I am just assigning to her the responsibility of being an international traveler who KNEW of the rule against bring marijuana related items into Russia. That SHE HAD CONTROL of that part, the part that started al this and got her into the situation.

If she had been pushed by a Russian and had pushed back then been arrested for assault, whatever, then I would hold her blameless but that is not what happened.

Even still, there are hundreds or Americans entering Russia and we are not seeing them all being held on trumped up charges. Customs enforcement authorities everywhere in the world can detain you without needing a reason, so it is always dumb to give them one. You don't get to choose the consequences of your error when you put yourself in that situation.

She made a mistake that was wholly avoidable. That is the key element of my point.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

She made a mistake that was wholly avoidable. That is the key element of my point.

Tugg

I would only say in response, that the vast majority of mistakes are wholly avoidable. In fact that's what makes them mistakes. Otherwise they are intentional deeds.

But I take your point that Griner committed the initial fault, and I believe you are arguing in good faith. The concern is that these arguments often evolve into full-on victim-blaming, and there is a lot of that circulating right now. However I accept that is not your intent here.

Avatar2go wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

She made a dumb mistake, but I think you're still operating under very naive assumptions about how and why the law is enforced in countries like Russia.

What is naive is giving the authorities an excuse to make an example out of you.

Don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the Russians were making an example of Griner for their own population. Her primary value was as a prominent American they could use for propaganda or bargaining. The cannabis charge was a sideshow, as was her trial and sentencing. There was only ever one objective.

Of course it was but so was Whelan. Biden had a choice and he made one that would keep the voters he needs in two years happy. His Press Sec loves to recite the propaganda term "Political stunt" while at the same time she was key in Biden's huge political stunt.

NIKV69 wrote:

Of course it was but so was Whelan. Biden had a choice and he made one that would keep the voters he needs in two years happy. His Press Sec loves to recite the propaganda term "Political stunt" while at the same time she was key in Biden's huge political stunt.

No, this again is false. It's been reported widely that Russia wanted Krasikov in exchange for Whelan, which wasn't possible because he's not in US custody. There was no choice. Even Whelan's family have confirmed this in interviews.

Really need to broaden your horizons to include factual news sources, as well as the entertainment sources you prefer.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

First thing came to my mind that now every US athlete is on some terrorist group target lists.
Seems like a no brainer. Catch somebody doing something stupid that can be considered illegal and trade him/her for somebody that is ready to burn the world the moment he is out.

? Really?
We got a US citizen back, and if he is that bad of a person, why was he not locked up with a life sentence? He was trafficking weapons. Guarantee that the moment he got locked up someone took his place.

He had been out of commission for 14 years. What happens now is up to him, but this is how the spy game is played.

Didn't his sold guns to Islamist Taliban insurgents?
Sounds like those US citizen lives that never got back don't matter now much don't they.

And if somebody thinks think a person like that is out of commission then I have a mountain for sale in the Everglades.

On the other hand knowing that they released The Merchant of Death cause you acted irresponsibly must hit hard.

NIKV69 wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Revelation wrote:

What is naive is giving the authorities an excuse to make an example out of you.

Don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the Russians were making an example of Griner for their own population. Her primary value was as a prominent American they could use for propaganda or bargaining. The cannabis charge was a sideshow, as was her trial and sentencing. There was only ever one objective.

Of course it was but so was Whelan. Biden had a choice and he made one that would keep the voters he needs in two years happy. His Press Sec loves to recite the propaganda term "Political stunt" while at the same time she was key in Biden's huge political stunt.

What are you talking about?

Two different people have corrected your post and indicated you are factually wrong - as reported the requested prisoner in exchange would not be released by the Germans.

You really need to stop watching Fox News. There are facts, and there's rhetoric, and you're just making it up as you go along here.

There was no path to getting Whelan home today. We don't have anyone they're going to want - it's not as if we can spring Robert Hanssen and it would suddenly make him relevant. If you want to make stuff up and believe a conspiracy theory, go ahead, but please stop posting the falsehoods.

NIKV69 wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Revelation wrote:

What is naive is giving the authorities an excuse to make an example out of you.

Don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the Russians were making an example of Griner for their own population. Her primary value was as a prominent American they could use for propaganda or bargaining. The cannabis charge was a sideshow, as was her trial and sentencing. There was only ever one objective.

Of course it was but so was Whelan. Biden had a choice and he made one that would keep the voters he needs in two years happy. His Press Sec loves to recite the propaganda term "Political stunt" while at the same time she was key in Biden's huge political stunt.

FFS making shit up (or repeating made up shit) is just not necessary. Whelan's family has been very clear on what proceedings have transpired, and when.

Tugger wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Look, kissing in public shouldn't be a crime either. Nor should unmarried sex or being seen in a same-sex relationship, but in some countries they are and the people are jailed, are these people granted "wrongful detention status"?

I get it, the penalty is far outside of acceptable norms but they happen. And in her case, they did not need to had she observed the laws of the country she was entering. Quite frankly there is a robust underground market for the vape canisters she was caught with, so she could have just got them there. Still crime but less risk as you aren't passing directly through a bottle neck with the goods.

Tugg

I think if you consider where these events happen, their motivation is pretty obvious. There are between 30 and 40 American wrongful detentions at any one time. Some are resolved through diplomatic channels, some have been there for years. Here are the countries in involved:

Iran, China, Russia, Venezuela, and Myanmar. This pattern should be exceedingly evident as to purpose. Note that there are strict countries like Singapore and UAE, where plenty of Americans get arrested for ignorance of local laws, but don't end up in this situation.

If you are an American in these countries, you are forever at risk of a minor infraction that could land you as a political hostage. Griner's failure to understand this was clueless & costly. But we shouldn't mistake that for the true injustice.

Absolutely, and I agree and I don't confuse the situation. I am just assigning to her the responsibility of being an international traveler who KNEW of the rule against bring marijuana related items into Russia. That SHE HAD CONTROL of that part, the part that started al this and got her into the situation.

If she had been pushed by a Russian and had pushed back then been arrested for assault, whatever, then I would hold her blameless but that is not what happened.

Even still, there are hundreds or Americans entering Russia and we are not seeing them all being held on trumped up charges. Customs enforcement authorities everywhere in the world can detain you without needing a reason, so it is always dumb to give them one. You don't get to choose the consequences of your error when you put yourself in that situation.

She made a mistake that was wholly avoidable. That is the key element of my point.

Tugg

Well said, as usual. The last thing authorities need in unfriendly places is an excuse - don't provide one.

I'm happy this happened so soon, and thankful for everyone who made this happen. All of the side talk doesn't matter, people are still working. The video from the exchange in Abu Dhabi is interesting.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

First thing came to my mind that now every US athlete is on some terrorist group target lists.
Seems like a no brainer. Catch somebody doing something stupid that can be considered illegal and trade him/her for somebody that is ready to burn the world the moment he is out.

? Really?
We got a US citizen back, and if he is that bad of a person, why was he not locked up with a life sentence? He was trafficking weapons. Guarantee that the moment he got locked up someone took his place.

He had been out of commission for 14 years. What happens now is up to him, but this is how the spy game is played.

Didn't his sold guns to Islamist Taliban insurgents?
Sounds like those US citizen lives that never got back don't matter now much don't they.

And if somebody thinks think a person like that is out of commission then I have a mountain for sale in the Everglades.

On the other hand knowing that they released The Merchant of Death cause you acted irresponsibly must hit hard.

As opposed to what? The US used to fund the Taliban through the 80's.

If selling weapons that are used to kill US citizens was a crime, most of the NRA and it's associated business owners would be in jail.

The US government would be just as guilty as well.

The only reason the right is in a twist is that the person that came home wasn't a white maie.

This trade makes the US venerable to hostage diplomacy. Brittney Griner was clearly framed and used in this 'game'. Viktor Bout has done some dispicable things and is very close to the Kremlin. From Russian/Krmlin perspective this is indeed a good deal, Griner is unimportant and they protect their goons, good signal all around for all the people that do their dirty work.

So the signal is: lock US citizens with a public presents on some bogus charge in order to exchange them with someone who th US has in prison which is important to the regime. Not good at all.

Dutchy wrote:

So the signal is: lock US citizens with a public presents on some bogus charge in order to exchange them with someone who th US has in prison which is important to the regime. Not good at all.

No bogus charge at all (in this particular case) - she was caught red handed.

Dutchy wrote:

This trade makes the US venerable to hostage diplomacy. Brittney Griner was clearly framed and used in this 'game'. Viktor Bout has done some dispicable things and is very close to the Kremlin. From Russian/Krmlin perspective this is indeed a good deal, Griner is unimportant and they protect their goons, good signal all around for all the people that do their dirty work.

So the signal is: lock US citizens with a public presents on some bogus charge in order to exchange them with someone who th US has in prison which is important to the regime. Not good at all.

Biden was pushed into a corner by the media and from the people in his admin that wanted her home so hence the lopsided deal. You are correct. To get Whelan out he will have to make a worse deal which I feel he will right before the next big election.

Dutchy wrote:

This trade makes the US venerable to hostage diplomacy. Brittney Griner was clearly framed and used in this 'game'. Viktor Bout has done some dispicable things and is very close to the Kremlin. From Russian/Krmlin perspective this is indeed a good deal, Griner is unimportant and they protect their goons, good signal all around for all the people that do their dirty work.

So the signal is: lock US citizens with a public presents on some bogus charge in order to exchange them with someone who th US has in prison which is important to the regime. Not good at all.

This argument is disingenuous at best. As noted in earlier posts, there are always Americans in wrongful detention, and they are always from the same countries. It was true before Griner was arrested, and will continue to be true after her release. Nor would that change if she had not been released.

Those countries (Iran, Russia, China, Venezuela, Myanmar) are not going to alter their behavior. The list itself is evidence of the motivation in play. They use people as pawns for their objectives. The US does not do the same, which is why we don't have a Russian equivalent of Griner to exchange. Nor should we.

Thus you again have no evidence for the claim that this makes things worse for the US. Nor is it a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from history.

Further this argument plays directly into the hands of Putin, giving the him the support and cover he needs to do the things you are apparently advocating for him to do. While simultaneously laying the blame for that on others. It's bad reasoning and bad behavior. You should be concerned about what you are doing and saying, more than Biden.

Your only truthful statement here is that Bout is a bad dude. On that we agree 100%. But we caught him, he was convicted and served time. At some point, he would have been released and deported anyway. If that is accelerated to get one of our own back, so be it. It's not something Americans will lose any sleep over.

889091 wrote:

No bogus charge at all (in this particular case) - she was caught red handed.

The charge was not bogus. The sentencing and imprisonment were completely bogus, being disproportionate beyond all fairness or justice, for obvious reasons.

Avatar2go wrote:

Further this argument plays directly into the hands of Putin, giving the him the support and cover he needs to do the things you are apparently advocating for him to do. While simultaneously laying the blame for that on others. It's bad reasoning and bad behavior. You should be concerned about what you are doing and saying, more than Biden.

I figured Dutchy's opinion was important but I had no idea how much .