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Kiwirob
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:46 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I am not sure if the new law in NZ will really work but it is worth a try. I think eventually it will be reversed due to it lack of working or creating black markets and other issues.

There has been several major ways taken to reduce tobacco consumption I have seen develop in the USA over the last almost 60 years. Raising age to purchase to 21 (as in many USA states, some other countries). Severely limit marketing and advertising including at the stores themselves. Don't show smoking in movies or TV programs (even if historically incorrect). Keep raising taxes. Ban smoking starting with workplaces and eventually except in private residences. Higher rates for life and health insurance. Pressure from doctors and health officials. All tobacco products are sold 'from behind the counter'. Ban flavored tobacco products (including menthol). Plain packaging so no open brand showing, much of the packaging with graphic pictures of body disease from smoking and blunt warnings. The best thing is to not start. For me, my father (who lived to 80, quit smoking unfiltered cigarette in his 50's) hacking his brains out every morning when a child and teen discouraged me.

Social, economic and other pressures can also be put into play. In the USA, the discount store chain Target stopped selling tobacco products in 1996 due to the hassles of enforcement of age of purchase laws and major drugstore chain CVS stopped doing so in 2014 as in conflict with their connection to health. Other US retailers have raised prices above state mandated minimum prices, don't want the risks of losing their business if sell to underage persons, remove a product that is frequently stolen by employees, or due to ID checking, made it not worth the hassle to sell tobacco products. Social and peer pressure against tobacco as a filthy habit should be encouraged.

I think one area of law to consider is to substantially reduce the number of retail sales points of purchase as done in some USA states with alcoholic beverages. Perhaps limiting the number of outlets and requiring an expensive license may reduce access so can be more tightly controlled with fewer outlets.Make it so not every convenience store sells them. Ban all advertising of tobacco products at point of sale. Ban sales within 500 feet of a school. As in the UK, all tobacco products have to kept behind a closed cabinet, marked with prices of brands at the most like other products in the store, make it more inconvenient to sell.


I think it will work, I’m 49, I only know one person in NZ who smokes, I don’t know anyone in Norway who smokes, smoking is both countries is dying off, this is just going to make it end quicker.

As I said in a previous post, NZ is an island far from anywhere, we have really strong border control, mostly put in place to protect our agricultural industries. I doubt anyone is going to be able to smuggle in large enough quantities to make it worth the effort.
 
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Tugger
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
NZ is an Island far from anywhere else, with pretty effective border control, smuggling cigarettes isn’t going to be all that easy, to make smuggling worth while you’re you would need to smuggle tens of thousands of them, NZ is not like most other countries where you can simply drive a truck over the border.

Well... the reality is that more drugs and illegal items are smuggled worldwide via container than any other method. Hidden within and entering the various nations via the ports and clearing customs inspections etc.

And of note, just one standard shipping container can hold 475,000 packs, almost 10 million cigarettes.
(Not saying an entire container loaded with just cigs would get through, just highlighting how easy it would be to hide a mere 10,000 inside one.)

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cpd
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:05 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
A101 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It's not really, smoking is at historic lows in NZ, all this is doing is accelerating it's demise. Only a complete idiot would take up smoking today, now those people will have to find something else.


it's called choice that's the difference until they ban tobacco period.

What's next alcohol

wonder what taxes are going to rise to replace the lost revenue



I don't smoke so I'm not concerned about it, besides it only applies if you were born after 2008 and doesn't cover e-cigarettes.


It matters however if you are supported by the tobacco lobby groups or tasked to advocate for them…

That would influence your stance on this.
 
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Aesma
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:16 pm

I applied that law to myself when I was about 13 so basically the age of the first people it will apply to.

I don't see how there can be a law that applies to some adults but not others though, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't pass constitutional scrutiny here.
 
ACDC8
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:31 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
I think government in many countries should be doing vastly more in regard to diets - promoting healthier eating from an early age. Parents need to do much better here especially in certain Western Countries where you do have a choice.

In terms of exercising, so many schools don't have playing fields anymore in my country as they had to be sold off because the schools were not funded properly. A lot more effort needs to go into helping single parents, those on lower incomes to eat healthier and not take it into adult life. I don't think we should be denying junk food (I mean ban ingredients we know cause issues by all means.. US needs to do much better there), because in moderation it's fine.. smoking however isn't fine in any moderation.

If you look at those countries with the highest life expectancy, alchohol is part of the culture but it comes in at a young age and is responsbily done. Those countries also happen to have diets nothing like you see in the US or UK for example. Huge amounts of fresh veg, fish etc.

I don't believe extreme sports have anything like an impact on healthcare services as smokers.

Promoting and regulating are two very different things though.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:39 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Where do you get 17 from?

16 is the age of consent
18 is the voting, drinking, smoking age
20 is when you reach legal adulthood


17 is when adulthood starts per the The Oranga Tamariki Act of 1989:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_j ... g%20factor

The good news is, it sounds an "underage" person won't get charged with possession under NZ law, so you won't get these idiotic situations where underaged people (17 year olds) get rammed through the adult court/jail system like in Texas for the same thing.


Which as far as I can tell doesn’t repeal the Age of Majority Act 1970

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/pub ... whole.html


Well, it clearly puts the age into question, or, Parliament had a simultaneous case of collective amnesia in the late 80s and forgot about previous statutes (how very American of them).

As long as this doesn't create more legally ambiguous/contradictory "underage adult" situations (like how 17 year olds Kiwis stupidly get an "adult" record for having a beer without parental supervision), I think this birthyear policy is fine, especially considering the drain on the nation's health system.
 
N1120A
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Massively shortsighted. I detest cigarettes and have never smoked. I've always supported indoor smoking bans as common sense public health measures. This is ridiculous. Prohibition never works and just causes more problems.

NIKV69 wrote:
Wow what is next? Alcohol? Soda? Scary actually.


Abortion? Being gay? Other plants with less harmful effects than tobacco or alcohol?

Oh...wait...


NZ is an Island far from anywhere else, with pretty effective border control, smuggling cigarettes isn’t going to be all that easy, to make smuggling worth while you’re you would need to smuggle tens of thousands of them, NZ is not like most other countries where you can simply drive a truck over the border. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Australia follow sooner rather than later.


Well, people don't seem to have trouble smuggling other, less used, processed plant products into New Zealand, given what apparently happened here.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cocaine-s ... 6PQ4WDCHI/
 
889091
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:20 pm

N1120A wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Massively shortsighted. I detest cigarettes and have never smoked. I've always supported indoor smoking bans as common sense public health measures. This is ridiculous. Prohibition never works and just causes more problems.



Abortion? Being gay? Other plants with less harmful effects than tobacco or alcohol?

Oh...wait...


NZ is an Island far from anywhere else, with pretty effective border control, smuggling cigarettes isn’t going to be all that easy, to make smuggling worth while you’re you would need to smuggle tens of thousands of them, NZ is not like most other countries where you can simply drive a truck over the border. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Australia follow sooner rather than later.


Well, people don't seem to have trouble smuggling other, less used, processed plant products into New Zealand, given what apparently happened here.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cocaine-s ... 6PQ4WDCHI/


Along similar lines:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programm ... ree-months

Cigarettes are being seized at the border in relentless quantities: more than quarter of a million a month, along with an average of 129 kilograms of loose tobacco.

Customs is bracing for the problem to increase as smoking laws get stricter - and promising to put the heat on the people responsible.

The first three months of this year saw more than 800,000 individual cigarettes confiscated by Customs officers, which was 60 percent more than the same three months in 2021.

They also seized a whopping 390 kilograms of loose tobacco.


It's only going to get worse.
 
mxaxai
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:28 pm

N1120A wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Wow what is next? Alcohol? Soda? Scary actually.

Other plants with less harmful effects than tobacco or alcohol?

Well, merely being suspected of owning other plants can put you at risk of being handcuffed and might leave you brutally injured in some other countries. Being convicted of posession or production can end your career and put you into prison for years with all the consequences this carries.

I feel like the public cost of such policies far exceeds the cost incurred by the consumption of potentially harmful substances.
Strict prohibition is never a solution. Give people the opportunity to satisfy their addictions legally and safely.
 
Toenga
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:50 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
NZ is an Island far from anywhere else, with pretty effective border control, smuggling cigarettes isn’t going to be all that easy, to make smuggling worth while you’re you would need to smuggle tens of thousands of them, NZ is not like most other countries where you can simply drive a truck over the border.

Well... the reality is that more drugs and illegal items are smuggled worldwide via container than any other method. Hidden within and entering the various nations via the ports and clearing customs inspections etc.

And of note, just one standard shipping container can hold 475,000 packs, almost 10 million cigarettes.
(Not saying an entire container loaded with just cigs would get through, just highlighting how easy it would be to hide a mere 10,000 inside one.)

Tugg


475000 packs at a retail price of NZ$38 per pack over 18 million dollars! Nearly 12million US$ worth in one 40ft container.
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:24 am

mxaxai wrote:
Well, merely being suspected of owning other plants can put you at risk of being handcuffed and might leave you brutally injured in some other countries. Being convicted of posession or production can end your career and put you into prison for years with all the consequences this carries.

I feel like the public cost of such policies far exceeds the cost incurred by the consumption of potentially harmful substances.
Strict prohibition is never a solution. Give people the opportunity to satisfy their addictions legally and safely.
So a few hundred will have their lives ruined because they acted against the laws of the country, while tens of thousands won't die of cancer, emphysema, pneumonia or cardio vascular disease. And those who do have their lives ruined by the law will have in every case knowingly played the odds against getting caught.

As an aside, the war against drugs especially marijuana, is not often directly comparable. A good case can be made that psychoactive drugs have a positive role and opiates do relieve pain (physical and mental). Tobacco has no positive attributes whatsoever other than satisfying the craving caused by its addiction trait.
 
N1120A
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:01 am

Vintage wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Well, merely being suspected of owning other plants can put you at risk of being handcuffed and might leave you brutally injured in some other countries. Being convicted of posession or production can end your career and put you into prison for years with all the consequences this carries.

I feel like the public cost of such policies far exceeds the cost incurred by the consumption of potentially harmful substances.
Strict prohibition is never a solution. Give people the opportunity to satisfy their addictions legally and safely.
So a few hundred will have their lives ruined because they acted against the laws of the country, while tens of thousands won't die of cancer, emphysema, pneumonia or cardio vascular disease. And those who do have their lives ruined by the law will have in every case knowingly played the odds against getting caught.

As an aside, the war against drugs especially marijuana, is not often directly comparable. A good case can be made that psychoactive drugs have a positive role and opiates do relieve pain (physical and mental). Tobacco has no positive attributes whatsoever other than satisfying the craving caused by its addiction trait.


And that mentality, combined with modern slavery, is why the US has such a prison population problem.

The way smoking has been successfully reduced worldwide is not by outright bans, but through the combination of honest education and social stigma.
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:08 am

N1120A wrote:
And that mentality, combined with modern slavery, is why the US has such a prison population problem.
Hyperbole much?
 
N1120A
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:46 am

Vintage wrote:
N1120A wrote:
And that mentality, combined with modern slavery, is why the US has such a prison population problem.
Hyperbole much?


No, not really
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:51 am

N1120A wrote:
Vintage wrote:
N1120A wrote:
And that mentality, combined with modern slavery, is why the US has such a prison population problem.
Hyperbole much?


No, not really
Yes, your answer was hyperbole, you really expect me to be responsible for Harry Anslinger's program?
And of course there is the slavery accusation behind it.
 
N1120A
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:59 am

Vintage wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Hyperbole much?


No, not really
Yes, your answer was hyperbole, you really expect me to be responsible for Harry Anslinger's program?
And of course there is the slavery accusation behind it.


You're missing the point about criminalization of adult behavior.
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:23 am

N1120A wrote:
Vintage wrote:
N1120A wrote:

No, not really
Yes, your answer was hyperbole, you really expect me to be responsible for Harry Anslinger's program?
And of course there is the slavery accusation behind it.


You're missing the point about criminalization of adult behavior.
No, I'm ignoring your extreme exaggeration and false comparison.
Also, 'criminalization of adult behavior' is a nonsensical term, is it OK for adults to rob banks?
 
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Tugger
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:45 am

N1120A wrote:
You're missing the point about criminalization of adult behavior.

However you did include hyoerbole in attempting to make your point. (Which was also lost on me too.)

Tugg
 
mxaxai
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:30 am

Vintage wrote:
So a few hundred will have their lives ruined because they acted against the laws of the country, while tens of thousands won't die of cancer, emphysema, pneumonia or cardio vascular disease. And those who do have their lives ruined by the law will have in every case knowingly played the odds against getting caught.

More than a million US citizens are arrested annually for sale, manufacture or posession of illegal drugs - though mostly posession. Until 2019, this included 500,000 arrests for cannabis alone (and cannabis isn't even particularly addictive) - recently the numbers have dropped slightly due to changes in prosecution. That's not "a few hundred".
https://drugabusestatistics.org/drug-re ... tatistics/

Btw. tobacco certainly has a psychoactive effect just like other drugs; it wouldn't be consumed if it didn't have that. Countries have historically tried to prohibit the sale and consumption of tobacco, usually without success.
Personally, I am not a user and dislike drug consumption in places like restaurants or public transport, where other people are affected. However, do whatever you want when you're alone.
 
N1120A
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:58 pm

Tugger wrote:
N1120A wrote:
You're missing the point about criminalization of adult behavior.

However you did include hyoerbole in attempting to make your point. (Which was also lost on me too.)

Tugg


There was no hyperbole in my comment, but I'm not surprised it was lost on you.
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:05 pm

mxaxai wrote:
More than a million US citizens are arrested annually for sale, manufacture or posession of illegal drugs - though mostly posession. Until 2019, this included 500,000 arrests for cannabis alone (and cannabis isn't even particularly addictive) - recently the numbers have dropped slightly due to changes in prosecution. That's not "a few hundred".
https://drugabusestatistics.org/drug-re ... tatistics/
I was referencing the current situation in New Zealand. They could successfully do a complete ban, they have a low number of current users and no border crossings. (I don't think many people would want to smuggle cigarettes in a container mixed with legal goods when the whole container would be seized if contraband was found.) There would be no legal campaign against the end user, unlike 'drugs' there is no criminal stigma or moral imperative attached to cigarettes. It's just a matter of making them unavailable. Current addicts could be supplied through the medical path.

mxaxai wrote:
tobacco certainly has a psychoactive effect just like other drugs; it wouldn't be consumed if it didn't have that. Countries have historically tried to prohibit the sale and consumption of tobacco, usually without success.
Personally, I am not a user and dislike drug consumption in places like restaurants or public transport, where other people are affected. However, do whatever you want when you're alone.
It's a stretch to claim that cigarettes are psychoactive and I know because I'm a product of the 60s, I've done plenty of both items. I am and always have been in favor of legalizing drugs here in the US and most other places; New Zealand's situation vs cigarettes is unique and cigarettes have no redeeming virtue whatsoever.

I will add that there is one drug that causes me to take a hypocritical stance when it comes to legalizing drugs, that is PCP. PCP is the only drug that would cause me to vote not guilty if someone raised the claim that they were no longer responsible for their actions. I believe that PCP should be banned, and that causes me some intellectual distress because I would like to see myself as having the enlightened view on 'personal freedoms' and it bothers me that it amounts to being equivalent to the camel's nose under the tent.

As it is, I am fine with the way New Zealand is going, I'm not calling for a ban on cigarettes there, I'm just saying I'd be OK with it if they did implement a total ban.
 
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Tugger
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:05 pm

N1120A wrote:
Tugger wrote:
N1120A wrote:
You're missing the point about criminalization of adult behavior.

However you did include hyoerbole in attempting to make your point. (Which was also lost on me too.)

Tugg


There was no hyperbole in my comment, but I'm not surprised it was lost on you.

Well of course I'm not as bright as you of course thanks to my upbringing and country's schooling.
If you could be so kind as to elucidate on this portion of your comment: "combined with modern slavery, is why the US has such a prison population problem"

Much appreciated.
Tugg
 
N1120A
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:34 pm

Tugger wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Tugger wrote:
However you did include hyoerbole in attempting to make your point. (Which was also lost on me too.)

Tugg


There was no hyperbole in my comment, but I'm not surprised it was lost on you.

Well of course I'm not as bright as you of course thanks to my upbringing and country's schooling.
If you could be so kind as to elucidate on this portion of your comment: "combined with modern slavery, is why the US has such a prison population problem"

Much appreciated.
Tugg


A little light reading about prisons.


https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... in-prisons

https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blo ... son-system

https://innocenceproject.org/13th-amend ... louisiana/

https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary ... y-slavery/

And about drug policy

https://drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war

https://www.aclu.org/other/american-dru ... w-jim-crow

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-libra ... and-policy

https://www.uc.edu/news/articles/2022/0 ... acism.html

https://ldi.upenn.edu/our-work/research ... al-racism/

https://idpc.net/blog/2020/06/the-war-o ... g-policies
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:14 pm

N1120A wrote:
That's about the exact definition of hyperbole, trying to inject the US prison system into a discussion of New Zealand's campaign against tobacco. You are following what seems to be a right wing mantra, making invalid comparisons.

A duck is not a raptor, a Volkswagen bus is not an Abrams tank even if an anti duck or anti motor vehicle zealot would want to claim so.
 
Toenga
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:25 pm

Vintage wrote:

New Zealand's situation vs cigarettes is unique.



New Zealand's situation vs cigarettes is not that unique.
Largely as a result of concious industry targeted marketing our indigenous peoples had/have our highest smoking rates.
This was certainly true in Australia as well and I suspect North America.
The effect of spreading this addiction was to exacerbate and entrench both poorer health outcomes and poverty in these demographics.
https://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au/c ... s-communit

I once went to a largely Maori wedding where the tobacco company rep, plus assistants, continually broke out packets of cigarettes into jars on the tables for immediate consumption, (and takeaway gifts). They were just seeding the future market.

Whilst continually raising the price of tobacco undoubtably has been the main driver of reducing smoking rates it does have the undesirable side effect of entrenching poverty for so many of the addicted.

Hence the leadership in this issue from Maoridom. They see it as an issue that unduly affects their people.

But most of the previous smoking reduction initiatives in this part of the world have actually been led by Australia, banning sports sponsorship, plain packaging, duty free allowances reduction, and ongoing massive tax rises. It was Australia that succesfully fought the court battles of investor vs state and brand copyright issues.

So unique we are not.
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:30 pm

Toenga wrote:
So unique we are not.
My meaning of 'unique' came from the fact that New Zealand is an island nation with no borders to tempt smugglers. From a US perspective, that is unique.
 
Toenga
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:12 pm

Vintage wrote:
Toenga wrote:
So unique we are not.
My meaning of 'unique' came from the fact that New Zealand is an island nation with no borders to tempt smugglers. From a US perspective, that is unique.


The vast majority of tobacco consumed everywhere in the world, has, and remains, legally obtained.
The case that further restrictions, costs etc, should not be imposed because it would cause an unacceptable rise in criminality is a fallacious rearguard argument by the industry.
Last edited by Toenga on Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mxaxai
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:13 pm

Vintage wrote:
My meaning of 'unique' came from the fact that New Zealand is an island nation with no borders to tempt smugglers. From a US perspective, that is unique.

Illicit trade generally follows 'normal' traffic routes. It's much easier to hide 100kg of heroin in a 40ton potato shipment than to have a dedicated courier crossing the border. So where there is trade, there are drugs - land borders or not.
 
Vintage
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:00 pm

Toenga wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Toenga wrote:
So unique we are not.
My meaning of 'unique' came from the fact that New Zealand is an island nation with no borders to tempt smugglers. From a US perspective, that is unique.


The vast majority of tobacco consumed everywhere in the world, has, and remains, legally obtained.
The case that further restrictions, costs etc, should not be imposed because it would cause an unacceptable rise in criminality is a fallacious rearguard argument by the industry.
Agreed.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:56 am

To my fellow Americans:

The reason why I brought up 17 year olds earlier was because NZ is one of only a couple "first world" nations that considers 17 year olds "adults" for "underage" possession of certain substances, at the same time. Doing some research, it looks like NZ does *not* punish "underage" tobacco posession, whether a 17 year old "young adult" or 33 year old middle-aged adult.
 
N1120A
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:41 am

Vintage wrote:
N1120A wrote:
That's about the exact definition of hyperbole, trying to inject the US prison system into a discussion of New Zealand's campaign against tobacco. You are following what seems to be a right wing mantra, making invalid comparisons.

A duck is not a raptor, a Volkswagen bus is not an Abrams tank even if an anti duck or anti motor vehicle zealot would want to claim so.


1) My response regarding the issues in the US was not to you.

2) Your deflection is still falling short. There is no question, as others have said, that this kind of prohibition disproportionately affects persons of color.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:54 am

Toenga wrote:
Vintage wrote:

New Zealand's situation vs cigarettes is unique.



New Zealand's situation vs cigarettes is not that unique.
Largely as a result of concious industry targeted marketing our indigenous peoples had/have our highest smoking rates.
This was certainly true in Australia as well and I suspect North America.
The effect of spreading this addiction was to exacerbate and entrench both poorer health outcomes and poverty in these demographics.
https://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au/c ... s-communit

I once went to a largely Maori wedding where the tobacco company rep, plus assistants, continually broke out packets of cigarettes into jars on the tables for immediate consumption, (and takeaway gifts). They were just seeding the future market.

Whilst continually raising the price of tobacco undoubtably has been the main driver of reducing smoking rates it does have the undesirable side effect of entrenching poverty for so many of the addicted.

Hence the leadership in this issue from Maoridom. They see it as an issue that unduly affects their people.

But most of the previous smoking reduction initiatives in this part of the world have actually been led by Australia, banning sports sponsorship, plain packaging, duty free allowances reduction, and ongoing massive tax rises. It was Australia that succesfully fought the court battles of investor vs state and brand copyright issues.

So unique we are not.


I've love to see some of that advertising that specifically targeted Maori, you need to back that up. If you had said tobacco companies targeted women I would agree with you and that all women not just maori women. I'm old enough to remember when NZ had tobacco advertising, I still can't remember any maori specific ads.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED1005/ ... om-link-01

Tobacco advertising was banned on TV and radio in 1963, followed by cinemas and billboards in 1973, and banned completely in 1990, in 1995 tobacco sponsorship of events and sports teams was banned along with in store hoardings and brand labeling. if anyone was daft enough to take up smoking since the 90's that's on them, I don't see how tobacco companies in NZ can be blamed for it, they can't advertise the product.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1251
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:24 am

N1120A wrote:
You're missing the point about criminalization of adult behavior.

Smoking isn't being criminalised. Selling or providing smoking materials (tobacco products) to persons under certain age is. This was already in law, it's just the age threshold that's changed. A subtle but significant difference that no one is surprised you didn't pick up on.

Similar laws exist in other civilised countries around the world. NZ are jus the first to introduce the "final" limit (by setting a birth year) to phase the legal selling of tobacco products out.
The UK raised it's "smoking age" (age at which supplying to persons is legal) to 18 (from 16) a few years ago, it's supposedly going to rise incrementally over the next few decades to phase sales out in a similar manner.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Sun Dec 25, 2022 8:10 am

ChrisKen wrote:

Similar laws exist in other civilised countries around the world. NZ are jus the first to introduce the "final" limit (by setting a birth year) to phase the legal selling of tobacco products out.
The UK raised it's "smoking age" (age at which supplying to persons is legal) to 18 (from 16) a few years ago, it's supposedly going to rise incrementally over the next few decades to phase sales out in a similar manner.

The US has done the same. We raised it from 18 to 21, same as the drinking age now.
 
SEAorPWM
Posts: 722
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:42 am

TWA772LR wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:

Similar laws exist in other civilised countries around the world. NZ are jus the first to introduce the "final" limit (by setting a birth year) to phase the legal selling of tobacco products out.
The UK raised it's "smoking age" (age at which supplying to persons is legal) to 18 (from 16) a few years ago, it's supposedly going to rise incrementally over the next few decades to phase sales out in a similar manner.

The US has done the same. We raised it from 18 to 21, same as the drinking age now.


Except in the US you get a fine or jail for being an "adult minor" when it comes to possession/use. NZ only criminalizes illegal sales luckily, and at the end nobody will be able to buy it.
 
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seb146
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:09 am

I don't know about NZ but has anyone else in The States noticed fewer and fewer people smoking tobacco? Even vaping? Both are still a thing but it seems fewer and fewer people are doing either or both.
 
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c933103
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:23 am

Toenga wrote:
Vintage wrote:
My meaning of 'unique' came from the fact that New Zealand is an island nation with no borders to tempt smugglers. From a US perspective, that is unique.


The vast majority of tobacco consumed everywhere in the world, has, and remains, legally obtained.
The case that further restrictions, costs etc, should not be imposed because it would cause an unacceptable rise in criminality is a fallacious rearguard argument by the industry.

There are already plenty of illegal channel in Hong Kong for cigarette despite it is currently still legal due to the higher price, common enough that even as a non-smoker I am still aware of them. With the government already reinforced banning THC+CBD+Vape+Nicotin, I am certain that would increase the amount of illegal trade of cigarette if the Hong Kong government also implement its proposed ban of no cigarette sell to people age under 2009, and I think it will have international impact too with countries like Malaysia also implementing similar policies.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 814
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Re: New Zealand Bans Tobacco Sales for People Born After 2008

Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
I don't know about NZ but has anyone else in The States noticed fewer and fewer people smoking tobacco? Even vaping? Both are still a thing but it seems fewer and fewer people are doing either or both.
Perhapa because it's getting more expensive and people have to choose between smoking and other things?

I for one approve of it getting less common.
As a child I remember I couldn't even be in a restaurant where they smoked, as it triggered my asthma.

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