While we haven't discussed it here lately, I imagine we'll be hearing quite a bit next week about the expiration of Title 42 and what happens after that date. As is typical for both political parties, no one is telling the US public what will happen if larger than expected numbers show up at the border.

Maybe we'll be surprised and they really do have a plan A and B. If not, I expect it to replace most stories on the 'front page" again.

Here is an article with an indepth discussion along with some of the biggest issues we are seeing that is causing people to try to get into America. So often the people and their stories are forgotten for political gain.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/tit ... -rcna61803

One challenge the U.S. is facing is that it's seeing many people from countries such as Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua arriving at the border. The U.S. has frosty to no relations with these countries, which have not been taking people back, so they're able to apply for asylum.

If the US has no relationship with these countries, then Asylum claims are easier. This means that while title 42 was convienient during the pandemic it was more a case of putting our heads in the sand about the real issues going on outside of the US,

The biggest issue is below and this needs to be fixed by Congress.

"Our U.S. immigration system is designed to deter Mexican immigration," Ruiz Soto said. "As migration flows become increasingly hemispheric, it is clear our immigration system is outdated and significantly ill-equipped."

No Border wall can fix an issue in the world where people are trying to escape corruption, cartels, and more challenges than a 30 foot wall could ever deter.

Drone photos show pretty large groups already gathering. The US media (outside of Fox) doesn't seem to be covering the story much.

Not sure what it will take for the US to have a frank discussion and plan on moving forward. 4 million people trying to enter?
Heading into a split Congress and an economic recession will be a bad combination for any solutions.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Drone photos show pretty large groups already gathering. The US media (outside of Fox) doesn't seem to be covering the story much.

Not sure what it will take for the US to have a frank discussion and plan on moving forward. 4 million people trying to enter?
Heading into a split Congress and an economic recession will be a bad combination for any solutions.

4 million ? That would be far too many, and then the issue becomes one for Mexico as the migrants that are wanting to claim assylum would just be stuck in lines. Title 42 is about assylum seekers. Not hordes of folks as Right Wing Media would like you to beleve.

I was listening to NPR and they're expecting 5000 per day into El Paso. How can that even be possible?

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Drone photos show pretty large groups already gathering. The US media (outside of Fox) doesn't seem to be covering the story much.

Not sure what it will take for the US to have a frank discussion and plan on moving forward. 4 million people trying to enter?
Heading into a split Congress and an economic recession will be a bad combination for any solutions.

The answer is that a solution is difficult to come by. The Posse Comitatus Act makes it impossible to utilize the military for domestic policy or LE directly. The number of immigration courts makes it difficult to process large numbers of asylum cases efficiently (or at all).

The biggest challenge is staffing and that’s a multiyear effort and challenge. DHS recruiting success peaked around 2010 and both attrition and recruiting difficulty have taken a toll since. There was a modest increase in the last two years of the Trump WH, but nowhere near the thousands of hires pledged.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/455 ... -staffing/

Has been discussed here before but a good summation of some of the hiring challenges:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2 ... e-5k-more/

As the cartels have more influence on people flows than the Mexican government, especially in the El Paso region, it may be necessary for USG to work something out with them.

If this goes badly, it will play into the hands of the far-right. And this will further push away any sensible solution.

The window may have have been in the last 12 months.

US Judge Blocks Biden Bid To End 'Remain In Mexico' Policy

A federal judge in Texas paused the Biden administration’s attempt to end the Trump-era “remain in Mexico” program, which requires some non-Mexican asylum-seekers to be sent back to that country to await immigration proceedings.

U.S. District Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk on Thursday issued a stay on the administration’s effort to terminate that policy while Texas and Missouri’s attempts to force the federal government to continue the program are considered in court. The Department of Homeland Security in August stopped enrolling new asylum-seekers into the program, which had been halted and restarted for years due to legal challenges and a change in administrations.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/12/16 ... -migrants/

"A Texas mayor has declared a state of emergency over migrants crossing the border"
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/18/11439272 ... er-el-paso

In spite of significant political pressure to not declare a state of emergency, the Democratic Mayor of El Paso changed his mind and made the declaration.
"Leeser added that the increase would be "incredible" after Wednesday, when daily apprehensions and street releases could reach up to 6,000 per day, the Times reported."

Thats one border crossing.

Still think this will be the number one news story by Wednesday. And the areas where these immigrants could be sent will see the coldest temps of the season. Shelters in those areas will be filled with existing homeless seeking shelter.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

If this goes badly, it will play into the hands of the far-right. And this will further push away any sensible solution.

The window may have have been in the last 12 months.

Any sensible solution has to start with closing the border which Biden will never do so once Title 42 expires more illegal immigration will be the result.

This article details some of the measures being prepared. One of them is an expedited removal, which is similar to Title 42 in allowing a summary expulsion.

Another is blockage of single individuals, except in extreme cases. Repetitive crossings by single individuals constitute the bulk of the apprehensions. Many of them have been expelled a dozen or more times.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... r-migrants

NIKV69 wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

If this goes badly, it will play into the hands of the far-right. And this will further push away any sensible solution.

The window may have have been in the last 12 months.

Any sensible solution has to start with closing the border which Biden will never do so once Title 42 expires more illegal immigration will be the result.

The border is closed - hence millions of CBP apprehensions and ongoing. ‘Open’ border means check stations and CBP activity don’t exist.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

If this goes badly, it will play into the hands of the far-right. And this will further push away any sensible solution.

The window may have have been in the last 12 months.

You think 12 months is enough time to solve CBP attrition and recruiting challenges that have lasted years?

What I meant was the last 12 months were probably the (last) time that immigration legislation should have been offered and maybe passed. With a divided Congress, nothing will happen now.

And if this goes badly, you could see a Republican President in 2024. And even worse, a Republican controlled Congress.

People don't understand the scope of this - each day approx. 10,687 people are born in the all 50 states of the US.
One border crossing - El Paso's - is expecting 7,000 folks who have nothing and no means of support to arrive on Wednesday. And millions of potential immigrants are watching from the rest of the Western Hemisphere and the world frankly to see if they too can claim refugee status.

What's the Plan?

Aaron747 wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

If this goes badly, it will play into the hands of the far-right. And this will further push away any sensible solution.

The window may have have been in the last 12 months.

You think 12 months is enough time to solve CBP attrition and recruiting challenges that have lasted years?

Red herring, Biden's view is everyone that is illegally crossing the border are asylum seekers. Again we need to secure the border and understand what is happening. Not make up narratives.

NIKV69 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

If this goes badly, it will play into the hands of the far-right. And this will further push away any sensible solution.

The window may have have been in the last 12 months.

You think 12 months is enough time to solve CBP attrition and recruiting challenges that have lasted years?

Red herring, Biden's view is everyone that is illegally crossing the border are asylum seekers. Again we need to secure the border and understand what is happening. Not make up narratives.

Red herring to answer a red herring? POTUS narrative doesn’t change the fact CBP is actively securing the border as best they can.

But they are very undermanned, not enough investment has been made in monitoring tech for all sectors, and immigration courts are 25 years behind being setup to process this volume of asylum claims.

No words from any POTUS will change things like CBP encountering the same solo crossers 10-12 times.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

What I meant was the last 12 months were probably the (last) time that immigration legislation should have been offered and maybe passed. With a divided Congress, nothing will happen now.

And if this goes badly, you could see a Republican President in 2024. And even worse, a Republican controlled Congress.

People don't understand the scope of this - each day approx. 10,687 people are born in the all 50 states of the US.
One border crossing - El Paso's - is expecting 7,000 folks who have nothing and no means of support to arrive on Wednesday. And millions of potential immigrants are watching from the rest of the Western Hemisphere and the world frankly to see if they too can claim refugee status.

What's the Plan?

In the 1980s the Reagan administration worked with Mexican trafficking lords to fix import rates of drugs so they could put pressure on Colombian cartels.

Given the influence the present Mexican cartels currently have on border territory and human movement through them, the only near-term fix seems to be negotiating with them.

Well the US has interfered with Latin America and the Caribbean for decades. Half of the US is in fact an original Mexican territory for example.

Just like Europe and their colonies comming back to migrate there, now having to face an immigrant crisis after the mess they left decades ago.

Its called karma and its amazing to see it in full circle.

santi319 wrote:

Well the US has interfered with Latin America and the Caribbean for decades. Half of the US is in fact an original Mexican territory for example.

Just like Europe and their colonies comming to migrate there, now having to face an immigrant crisis after the mess they left decades ago.

Its called karma and its amazing to see it in full circle.

It’s not as simple as colonial karma.

The US govt had valid political reasons for much of the interference in Latin affairs, and did a lot to assist with nation building in several countries. The problem is this was done without much public US awareness, and as political winds changed in the US, a lot of LatAm initiatives went unfinished or were otherwise completely abandoned.

The CIA working with many strange bedfellows did not help secure the trust of LatAm populations who were struggling with finding the right balance between populism and economic growth. It’s not a simple world.

All of the above is past and doesn’t mean the present situation is deserved by anyone affected/exploited by it.

Why does Japan take so few immigrants? Seems kind of odd.

LabQuest wrote:

Why does Japan take so few immigrants? Seems kind of odd.

The only way in is by air. Port facilities are all controlled by yakuza tho.

If you’re referring to asylees or refugees though, the system of government is not setup for that, so the national govt doesn’t have confidence to handle large numbers of refugees. Government services are basically handled by local governments, so equitable handling of refugees would be a major challenge.

Aaron747 wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

Why does Japan take so few immigrants? Seems kind of odd.

The only way in is by air. Port facilities are all controlled by yakuza tho.

That seems fairly easy though. Just a couple flights a day from wherever of people seeking a better life.

So the yakuza are racist?

LabQuest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

Why does Japan take so few immigrants? Seems kind of odd.

The only way in is by air. Port facilities are all controlled by yakuza tho.

That seems fairly easy though. Just a couple flights a day from wherever of people seeking a better life.

So the yakuza are racist?

The yakuza don’t like outsiders - never have. Though strangely they get along okay with Iranians and Turks for drug smuggling.

I expanded on the previous response. Essentially the answer is Japanese cannot tolerate providing bad service, so if they feel that’s likely, they won’t have confidence to try.

Aaron747 wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

The only way in is by air. Port facilities are all controlled by yakuza tho.

That seems fairly easy though. Just a couple flights a day from wherever of people seeking a better life.

So the yakuza are racist?

The yakuza don’t like outsiders - never have. Though strangely they get along okay with Iranians and Turks for drug smuggling.

I expanded on the previous response. Essentially the answer is Japanese cannot tolerate providing bad service, so if they feel that’s likely, they won’t have confidence to try.

So hiding behind bad service is a reason to not accept people fleeing certain death or poverty? Nice.

I think its something entirely different though. We all know what.

LabQuest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

That seems fairly easy though. Just a couple flights a day from wherever of people seeking a better life.

So the yakuza are racist?

The yakuza don’t like outsiders - never have. Though strangely they get along okay with Iranians and Turks for drug smuggling.

I expanded on the previous response. Essentially the answer is Japanese cannot tolerate providing bad service, so if they feel that’s likely, they won’t have confidence to try.

So hiding behind bad service is a reason to not accept people fleeing certain death or poverty? Nice.

I think its something entirely different though. We all know what.

The LDP's political survival? Oh of course that's involved too. But there is really very little cultural tradition of philanthropy in Japan to begin with. NPOs only became tax beneficiaries in 2001.

Aaron747 wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

The yakuza don’t like outsiders - never have. Though strangely they get along okay with Iranians and Turks for drug smuggling.

I expanded on the previous response. Essentially the answer is Japanese cannot tolerate providing bad service, so if they feel that’s likely, they won’t have confidence to try.

So hiding behind bad service is a reason to not accept people fleeing certain death or poverty? Nice.

I think its something entirely different though. We all know what.

The LDP's political survival? Oh of course that's involved too. But there is really very little cultural tradition of philanthropy in Japan to begin with. NPOs only became tax beneficiaries in 2001.

No, its the fact that Japan doesn't take in many (if any) refugees due to dubious reasons.

casinterest wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Drone photos show pretty large groups already gathering. The US media (outside of Fox) doesn't seem to be covering the story much.

Not sure what it will take for the US to have a frank discussion and plan on moving forward. 4 million people trying to enter?
Heading into a split Congress and an economic recession will be a bad combination for any solutions.

4 million ? That would be far too many, and then the issue becomes one for Mexico as the migrants that are wanting to claim assylum would just be stuck in lines. Title 42 is about assylum seekers. Not hordes of folks as Right Wing Media would like you to beleve.

Why call the asylum seekers when the vast majority of them are economic migrants?

LabQuest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

So hiding behind bad service is a reason to not accept people fleeing certain death or poverty? Nice.

I think its something entirely different though. We all know what.

The LDP's political survival? Oh of course that's involved too. But there is really very little cultural tradition of philanthropy in Japan to begin with. NPOs only became tax beneficiaries in 2001.

No, its the fact that Japan doesn't take in many (if any) refugees due to dubious reasons.

If the Japanese don't want them why should they take in anyone?

South Korea only accepts refugee from the North, which is understandable.

LabQuest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

So hiding behind bad service is a reason to not accept people fleeing certain death or poverty? Nice.

I think its something entirely different though. We all know what.

The LDP's political survival? Oh of course that's involved too. But there is really very little cultural tradition of philanthropy in Japan to begin with. NPOs only became tax beneficiaries in 2001.

No, its the fact that Japan doesn't take in many (if any) refugees due to dubious reasons.

Nothing dubious about it - the migration history of East Asia is completely different than Europe and its offshoots.

As to the ‘bad service’ comment it’s a strong aspect of the culture. There are many who would like to take in more, but they know that would require resources Japan doesn’t have. For instance, good luck finding Urdu or Spanish speakers in Japan who also possess civil service and school teacher licenses.

The issue to me is not immigration from Mexico as much as we do share a common border and history.

It's the fact that immigrants from every failed state and area ofpoor economic conditions where gangs and despots rule can argue for entry. And the world has developed a system to move those people from where they are now to the US, Canada and Europe.

Why can't the US politicians tell us how many can the country take in? What it's going to cost and who is paying. I'm sure the Mayor of El Paso would like to know too

MohawkWeekend wrote:

If this goes badly, it will play into the hands of the far-right. And this will further push away any sensible solution.

The window may have have been in the last 12 months.

I don’t consider border security to be a far right thing. It’s about being civilized and ensuring the rights and safety of your citizens. Even the most far left countries secure their border. And they do not tolerate false asylum claims… no country does. Falsely claiming asylum is deplorable, but the really outlandish part is these claims are being accepted, and we are being told it is normal. All because the people in charge don’t want American wages to rise too high.

Kiwirob wrote:

casinterest wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Drone photos show pretty large groups already gathering. The US media (outside of Fox) doesn't seem to be covering the story much.

Not sure what it will take for the US to have a frank discussion and plan on moving forward. 4 million people trying to enter?
Heading into a split Congress and an economic recession will be a bad combination for any solutions.

4 million ? That would be far too many, and then the issue becomes one for Mexico as the migrants that are wanting to claim assylum would just be stuck in lines. Title 42 is about assylum seekers. Not hordes of folks as Right Wing Media would like you to beleve.

Why call the asylum seekers when the vast majority of them are economic migrants?

Why use economic migrants, when many are forced from jobs due to religion,politics,sexuality, or a host of other assylum seeking reasons?
There is too much stereotyping and blame going around, and as was astoundingly pointed out in a press conference this week. Abbott, and Desantis are helping to enhance the problem itself.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/abc-greg ... fa1a461546

"Raddatz grilled Abbott for his previous claims of an “open border” that she said sent a message that “reverberates in Mexico.”

“I don’t think I’ve ever heard President Joe Biden say ‘We have an open border, come on over,’” Raddatz said.

“But people I have heard say it are you, are former President Trump, Ron DeSantis. That message reverberates in Mexico and beyond. So they do get the message that it is an open border and smugglers use all those kinds of statements.”"

Maybe they should arrest Abbott and Desantis as accessories to the crime through advertising and promotion ?

casinterest wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

casinterest wrote:

4 million ? That would be far too many, and then the issue becomes one for Mexico as the migrants that are wanting to claim assylum would just be stuck in lines. Title 42 is about assylum seekers. Not hordes of folks as Right Wing Media would like you to beleve.

Why call the asylum seekers when the vast majority of them are economic migrants?

Why use economic migrants, when many are forced from jobs due to religion,politics,sexuality, or a host of other assylum seeking reasons?
There is too much stereotyping and blame going around, and as was astoundingly pointed out in a press conference this week. Abbott, and Desantis are helping to enhance the problem itself.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/abc-greg ... fa1a461546

"Raddatz grilled Abbott for his previous claims of an “open border” that she said sent a message that “reverberates in Mexico.”

“I don’t think I’ve ever heard President Joe Biden say ‘We have an open border, come on over,’” Raddatz said.

“But people I have heard say it are you, are former President Trump, Ron DeSantis. That message reverberates in Mexico and beyond. So they do get the message that it is an open border and smugglers use all those kinds of statements.”"

Maybe they should arrest Abbott and Desantis as accessories to the crime through advertising and promotion ?

I don't see anything in your link that shows these are genuine refugees and not economic migrants.

Kiwirob wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Why call the asylum seekers when the vast majority of them are economic migrants?

Why use economic migrants, when many are forced from jobs due to religion,politics,sexuality, or a host of other assylum seeking reasons?
There is too much stereotyping and blame going around, and as was astoundingly pointed out in a press conference this week. Abbott, and Desantis are helping to enhance the problem itself.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/abc-greg ... fa1a461546

"Raddatz grilled Abbott for his previous claims of an “open border” that she said sent a message that “reverberates in Mexico.”

“I don’t think I’ve ever heard President Joe Biden say ‘We have an open border, come on over,’” Raddatz said.

“But people I have heard say it are you, are former President Trump, Ron DeSantis. That message reverberates in Mexico and beyond. So they do get the message that it is an open border and smugglers use all those kinds of statements.”"

Maybe they should arrest Abbott and Desantis as accessories to the crime through advertising and promotion ?

I don't see anything in your link that shows these are genuine refugees and not economic migrants.

I don't see anything in your post that refutes that economic migrants exclude genuine refugees.

This is why we have border patrol. To sort out the differences. The ones that won't qualify for refugee/asylum, weill usually skip the border checkpoints, or overrun their visa,

LCDFlight wrote:

All because the people in charge don’t want American wages to rise too high.

Strangely this aspect of the issue is almost never part of the conversation - probably because donors to both parties like it that way.

It's important to understand how the flow of migrants at the Mexico border has changed. In past decades, the majority were from Mexico, and the majority were single adults. When they were expelled back to Mexico, they could return to their place of origin.

Now, the majority are from Central America, but still are also mostly single adults. When they are expelled back to Mexico, they cannot easily return home, and they are not wanted in Mexico either, so they try again & again to enter the US. For single adults, well more than half of apprehensions are repeating past offenders.

The groups that tend to get admitted to the US, are families and unaccompanied children who have relatives in the US. That is a far smaller fraction of the total apprehensions.

Aaron747 wrote:

Red herring to answer a red herring? POTUS narrative doesn’t change the fact CBP is actively securing the border as best they can.

But they are very undermanned, not enough investment has been made in monitoring tech for all sectors, and immigration courts are 25 years behind being setup to process this volume of asylum claims.

No words from any POTUS will change things like CBP encountering the same solo crossers 10-12 times.

The CBP has nothing to do with this. The Biden admin has made it known that they will either do nothing or very little to illegal border crossers and through their press staff consider them "asylum seekers" this just feeds this increase in how many people just are walking in here.

Aaron747 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

All because the people in charge don’t want American wages to rise too high.

Strangely this aspect of the issue is almost never part of the conversation - probably because donors to both parties like it that way.

This is not entirely true, it's not wages. There are just too many jobs that Americans won't do like pick crops, clean hotel rooms etc. Again this is a red herring because it doesn't change the fact that we need migrants to come here legally and go through the process.

Kiwirob wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Why call the asylum seekers when the vast majority of them are economic migrants?

Why use economic migrants, when many are forced from jobs due to religion,politics,sexuality, or a host of other assylum seeking reasons?
There is too much stereotyping and blame going around, and as was astoundingly pointed out in a press conference this week. Abbott, and Desantis are helping to enhance the problem itself.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/abc-greg ... fa1a461546

"Raddatz grilled Abbott for his previous claims of an “open border” that she said sent a message that “reverberates in Mexico.”

“I don’t think I’ve ever heard President Joe Biden say ‘We have an open border, come on over,’” Raddatz said.

“But people I have heard say it are you, are former President Trump, Ron DeSantis. That message reverberates in Mexico and beyond. So they do get the message that it is an open border and smugglers use all those kinds of statements.”"

Maybe they should arrest Abbott and Desantis as accessories to the crime through advertising and promotion ?

I don't see anything in your link that shows these are genuine refugees and not economic migrants.

Because it's not there. All of these people jumping the border are all not asylum seekers. They are coming here the same reason my father did. For a better life. Great, fine, my father did it the legal way, so can they.

NIKV69 wrote:

The CBP has nothing to do with this. The Biden admin has made it known that they will either do nothing or very little to illegal border crossers and through their press staff consider them "asylum seekers" this just feeds this increase in how many people just are walking in here.

Straight up BS.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sout ... encounters

https://www.statista.com/statistics/329 ... er-patrol/

NIKV69 wrote:

This is not entirely true, it's not wages. There are just too many jobs that Americans won't do like pick crops, clean hotel rooms etc. Again this is a red herring because it doesn't change the fact that we need migrants to come here legally and go through the process.

The bracero program ended in 1964. What is the 'process' now for agricultural workers? And on the subject of wages, don't tell me motel chains, construction, and the meatpacking industry don't like things *just the way they are*. No unionization to worry about because all supes have to do is threaten to speak with la migra.

And to highlight how complex these issues are, is the additional matter of the affluenza you just mentioned. Picking crops and cleaning hotel rooms was a good honest living for people in our grandparents' generation - entitlement is the only explanation for middle class people today believing otherwise.

NIKV69 wrote:

All of these people jumping the border are all not asylum seekers. They are coming here the same reason my father did. For a better life. Great, fine, my father did it the legal way, so can they.

All of these people are all not.....sounds like this means some are. We have no way to iron that out with immigration courts as dysfunctional as they currently are. You said 'go through the process'...well, the process needs fixing. Asylum claims need to be adjudicated to determine if they are bogus or not.

List of countries by Fragile States Index. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ates_Index

If the map from this link doesn't scare the beejeez out of folks in the West, I don't know what will.

Aaron747 wrote:

The bracero program ended in 1964. What is the 'process' now for agricultural workers? And on the subject of wages, don't tell me motel chains, construction, and the meatpacking industry don't like things *just the way they are*. No unionization to worry about because all supes have to do is threaten to speak with la migra.

These jobs don't pay as bad as you make them out to be, also you ignore the fact that these jobs pay a certain market rate. Just like with fast food jobs. They pay $40,000-50,000 a year not $100,000. It doesn't mean these businesses are liking paying people poorly with the threat of calling immigration. Yet again another red herring.

Aaron747 wrote:

All of these people are all not.....sounds like this means some are. We have no way to iron that out with immigration courts as dysfunctional as they currently are. You said 'go through the process'...well, the process needs fixing. Asylum claims need to be adjudicated to determine if they are bogus or not.

It sure does but it doesn't mean we just let people stream in here by the thousands and propagate the narrative they are asylum seekers. The border needs to be closed and secure for any thing to change because to do otherwise just enables people to think they are going to get amnesty as long as they enter illegally.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

List of countries by Fragile States Index. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ates_Index

If the map from this link doesn't scare the beejeez out of folks in the West, I don't know what will.

Say it louder so the people down the back can hear.

Until we find ways to end the need for people to seek personal, political and economic security in the USA, millions will still try to get in even at great personal and financial risk. We also need to have a reasonable and well run 'guest worker permit' program, strict enforcement of laws on employers to only higher citizens, legal residents and permitted persons.

Sadly part of the problem is due to over 150 years of policy with Mexico, Central and parts of South America in favor of our needs and that of our corporations, in favor of colonial capitalism, zero tolerance of Communism or Socialism, control by a few very rich and easily bribed families..

Some may want a massive military line along our border with Mexico, shoot on sight anyone crossing illegally, walls and barriers that would damage the environment and animals. But that is legally limited as well as to international humanity treaties.

NIKV69 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

The bracero program ended in 1964. What is the 'process' now for agricultural workers? And on the subject of wages, don't tell me motel chains, construction, and the meatpacking industry don't like things *just the way they are*. No unionization to worry about because all supes have to do is threaten to speak with la migra.

These jobs don't pay as bad as you make them out to be, also you ignore the fact that these jobs pay a certain market rate. Just like with fast food jobs. They pay $40,000-50,000 a year not $100,000. It doesn't mean these businesses are liking paying people poorly with the threat of calling immigration. Yet again another red herring.

Food processing, agriculture, meat packing, and construction can hire people who are questionable on their work history. People with criminal records and, yes, illegals. Those industries can pay low wages because where else can they go? A convicted rapist most likely will not get a good paying job. Likewise, someone with no papers can not get a job at all. Other legal immigrants are convinced they can not get a job anywhere else. These jobs just happen to pay the worst wages in the country. More because they can exploit labor.

"Democrats Double Down on Break With Joe Biden Over Migrants at Border"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... 1cf217bdaa

Well at least a couple of legislators make sense -
"Manchin and Cuellar on Sunday appeared on CBS' Face the Nation to defend their call to extend Title 42. "Title 42 needs to be extended until we can get, truly, immigration reform," Manchin said. "Immigration reform will not happen in our country until we come—both sides of the aisle, Democrats, Republicans and the administration—that you have to have total border security."

The senator called on the president to "use every bit of power he has" to find a way to extend Title 42, predicting that the Biden administration will ultimately request an extension of the policy. Meanwhile, Cuellar also took aim at the Biden administration's immigration plan.

"They've been talking about this plan for the last two years. They've been blaming Republicans. They've been blaming Congress. How long is this plan going to...take effect?" he asked.

Cuellar added that if Title 42 goes away, the White House needs to have a "policy of an orderly pathway to asylum," and if migrants don't follow that pathway, "they need to go back."

The Biden administration has said they will implement summary expulsion measures for single adults, that is very similar to Title 42. Especially for those who have already been expelled before, but keep trying.

Ultimately what's needed is to get those people back to their home country. Which means working with the Mexican government. Kicking them across the border is at best a temporary solution.

I don't know why the GOP keeps inviting more people to the border.

Biden has apprehended more than anyone else. This means it costs more money to continue to secure the border.


https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19 ... cord-2022/

Federal authorities are on pace to make more than 2.3 million arrests during the 2022 fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30. That will far exceed last year’s record of more than 1.7 million arrests.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... -7-charts/

NIKV69 wrote:

This is not entirely true, it's not wages. There are just too many jobs that Americans won't do like pick crops, clean hotel rooms etc. Again this is a red herring because it doesn't change the fact that we need migrants to come here legally and go through the process.

This is always good for a laugh. There are almost NO jobs Americans won’t do. They picked crops, by hand, for 300 years. And centuries before that, depending on where they were from. They can’t clean hotel rooms?!
Bizarre although common distortion, imo. I have some US born relatives who did both!

In order to hire Americans though, you need to pay American wages. Of course, I would rather pay Lithuanian or Ecuadorian wages if I can get away with that; that’s just common sense.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

"Democrats Double Down on Break With Joe Biden Over Migrants at Border"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... 1cf217bdaa

Well at least a couple of legislators make sense -
"Manchin and Cuellar on Sunday appeared on CBS' Face the Nation to defend their call to extend Title 42. "Title 42 needs to be extended until we can get, truly, immigration reform," Manchin said. "Immigration reform will not happen in our country until we come—both sides of the aisle, Democrats, Republicans and the administration—that you have to have total border security."

The senator called on the president to "use every bit of power he has" to find a way to extend Title 42, predicting that the Biden administration will ultimately request an extension of the policy. Meanwhile, Cuellar also took aim at the Biden administration's immigration plan.

"They've been talking about this plan for the last two years. They've been blaming Republicans. They've been blaming Congress. How long is this plan going to...take effect?" he asked.

Cuellar added that if Title 42 goes away, the White House needs to have a "policy of an orderly pathway to asylum," and if migrants don't follow that pathway, "they need to go back."

But doesn't that already happen? I mean: those who turn up at a legal port of entry and fill out the necessary asylum paperwork are granted a hearing and those who are caught are sent back or detained if they ask for asylum and sent back when denied for entering the country illegally?

LCDFlight wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

This is not entirely true, it's not wages. There are just too many jobs that Americans won't do like pick crops, clean hotel rooms etc. Again this is a red herring because it doesn't change the fact that we need migrants to come here legally and go through the process.

This is always good for a laugh. There are almost NO jobs Americans won’t do. They picked crops, by hand, for 300 years. And centuries before that, depending on where they were from. They can’t clean hotel rooms?!
Bizarre although common distortion, imo. I have some US born relatives who did both!

In order to hire Americans though, you need to pay American wages. Of course, I would rather pay Lithuanian or Ecuadorian wages if I can get away with that; that’s just common sense.

Perhaps the situation is that employers could employ US citizens, but cannot find US citizens prepared to work for what the employers want to pay.

bennett123 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

This is not entirely true, it's not wages. There are just too many jobs that Americans won't do like pick crops, clean hotel rooms etc. Again this is a red herring because it doesn't change the fact that we need migrants to come here legally and go through the process.

This is always good for a laugh. There are almost NO jobs Americans won’t do. They picked crops, by hand, for 300 years. And centuries before that, depending on where they were from. They can’t clean hotel rooms?!
Bizarre although common distortion, imo. I have some US born relatives who did both!

In order to hire Americans though, you need to pay American wages. Of course, I would rather pay Lithuanian or Ecuadorian wages if I can get away with that; that’s just common sense.

Perhaps the situation is that employers could employ US citizens, but cannot find US citizens prepared to work for what the employers want to pay.

I have the same problem with doctors! What then… can I import my own doctors? They are willing to come. I am ready to take action on that.