seb146 wrote:

I am wondering when the "sane" Republicans will simply resign from the party and caucus with Democrats until 2024? The Republican majority is not that large.

Because structurally the US political system is set up to favour the GOP. There’s structural advantages in the Senate, Electoral College, State Legislatures, Courts that favour Republicans. With things like gerrymandering and voter suppression they have a disproportionate hold on government. So any Republican knows it’s an easier ride on their side of politics.

The GOP base is influenced by Fox News and far right media, so any moderate knows in order to hold any form of power on the right side of politics they have to appease that crowd. Some may wish to caucus with Democrats but they’ll be primaried and eliminated from the party, much like Liz Cheney was.

To be a GOP member in 2023 is to appease the MAGA crowd, it’s non negotiable. The party of Lincoln, Romney and McCain does not exist anymore

Team McCarthy are triple-teamiing Gaetz right now, as he withheld his vote. Pretty animated discussion

And now McCarthy himself is going after Gaetz. Holy crap!!!!

McCarthy didn't get it, by one vote. So now they are trying to get someone to change their vote.

I can't even believe this! Huge pressure on Gaetz and Boebert now to alter their Present votes.

14th ballot without a Speaker. Now a motion to adjourn until noon Monday, which will be polled.

Gaetz just voted present.

NIKV69 wrote:

Got to give Jim Jordan credit he is acting like an adult.

Hell has officially frozen over, folks.

Avatar2go wrote:

Since that is must-pass legislation, and they are now free to add amendments without committee approval

To clarify, they could propose amendments which would be voted on, not that they’ll necessarily pass to ultimately be included in the final bill.

flyguy89 wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Since that is must-pass legislation, and they are now free to add amendments without committee approval

To clarify, they could propose amendments which would be voted on, not that they’ll necessarily pass to ultimately be included in the final bill.

Yes, as I explained, the issue is the legislation must be passed (failure is not an option), and the rules of amendments do allow a request to vote on the bill as amended, without separate consideration of the amendment. As well as to send it back to committee for consideration of the amendment.

Therefore there are ways to obstruct the process by submitting amendments, which is why there is concern, if it came down to time pressure.

It looks like the Republicans are going to game the system, with another ballot in which they will have just enough members vote Present, lowering the vote count so that McCarthy would have the majority. But not enough to allow Jeffries to win.

Pretty funny, the Republicans all voted for adjournment, then asked the clerk to change their votes to not adjourn, so they can vote again, once they figured it out.

There is also some reporting that Trump called Marjorie Taylor Greene to suggest this method to game the vote.

It may also be that McCarthy and Gaetz have made up, and Gaetz or Boebert (or both) will change their vote.

The motion to adjourn to Monday Noon has not been adopted. A 15th Round is underway as of 11:45 PM Friday. Maybe the 15th round will be the charm.

Looks like they got the Other votes to change to Present, which changes the minimum and will allow McCarthy to be elected.

Avatar2go wrote:

flyguy89 wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Since that is must-pass legislation, and they are now free to add amendments without committee approval

To clarify, they could propose amendments which would be voted on, not that they’ll necessarily pass to ultimately be included in the final bill.

Yes, as I explained, the issue is the legislation must be passed (failure is not an option), and the rules of amendments do allow a request to vote on the bill as amended, without separate consideration of the amendment. As well as to send it back to committee for consideration of the amendment.

Therefore there are ways to obstruct the process by submitting amendments, which is why there is concern, if it came down to time pressure.

Sure, but they would still need the votes to send it back to committee. What I’m getting at is if for, say, 12 representatives it would be a poison pill not to include their favored amendment, what practical effect would that have if they would be withholding their votes under either rules structure, other than allowing them to propose the amendment? Under current or the potential new rules the bill would still be leaving committee without their votes secured.

flyguy89 wrote:

Sure, but they would still need the votes to send it back to committee. What I’m getting at is if for, say, 12 representatives it would be a poison pill not to include their favored amendment, what practical effect would that have if they would be withholding their votes under either rules structure, other than allowing them to propose the amendment? Under current or the potential new rules the bill would still be leaving committee without their votes secured.

Not sure that you are understanding the rules. They can obstruct the process with amendments to delay the bill, to the point that they force a vote due to time. Congress can't allow the US to default.

When this process occurs in committee, they can't get their amendment onto the floor at all. Why do you think they've pushed so hard for this? It gives them the same power over legislation, that they have exercised in the Speaker ballot.

Normally to prevent the amendment process from becoming obstructive, the House first agrees to special rules for the legislation, which are produced by the Rules Committee. That's why they asked for seats on that committee. If they can control the rules to allow amendments, they can keep proposing new ones until time is running out.

Avatar2go wrote:

Looks like they got the Other votes to change to Present, which changes the minimum and will allow McCarthy to be elected.

(unenthusiastic cheering)

McCarthy wins by 3 votes, with 6 Presents from the Never Kevin group. Lol, they really were presents!

Avatar2go wrote:

McCarthy wins by 3 votes, with 6 Presents from the Never Kevin group. Lol, they really were presents!

So this particular soap opera is over... but, considering the concessions he made, you know this entire session of Congress will supply enough material for many episodes to come.

For McCarthy, it has to be a pyrrhic victory, at best; the concessions he made to the Anarchist Caucus means he has won an office with little if any power left in it. Winning a battle while losing the war is still not a good strategy. Maybe he thinks just holding the office will look good on his resume.

Avatar2go wrote:

Not sure that you are understanding the rules. They can obstruct the process with amendments to delay the bill, to the point that they force a vote due to time. Congress can't allow the US to default.

As opposed to the current rules where they obstruct by withholding their votes until the 11th hour? We’ll have to wait to see what the final rules package will be and the specifics around proposing amendments, closing debate, etc. They have to know Democrats can equally take advantage of this process…but then I wouldn’t exactly describe some of these Freedom Caucus members as rocket scientists.

flyguy89 wrote:

As opposed to the current rules where they obstruct by withholding their votes until the 11th hour? We’ll have to wait to see what the final rules package will be and the specifics around proposing amendments, closing debate, etc. They have to know Democrats can equally take advantage of this process…but then I wouldn’t exactly describe some of these Freedom Caucus members as rocket scientists.

I think the critical difference is that they could always delay the legislation, but they couldn't attach amendments outside the committee. So now, they can force changes to the law, that were not possible before.

Agreed that we have to see how the rules and committee assignments now fall out. Then we'll know how much control he gave up.

So now the Trump Stench extends into very hands that sustained his lies since 2016.

We already know what expect - Pure Nonsense.

But McCarthy's proven ineptitude will not fail to live up to its bottom of the barrel source.
He is Trump's boy.. the Insurrectionists will do their best to continue their mission of destabilizing America and keep the Wall (of Division) up even further.

McCarthy has zero credibilty to anyone paying attention to his actions - not his words.

He can't be believed for a single word from his mouth. I could not watch his acceptance because he has proven to be as bad a liar as his master.

Let the self-destruction begin because there is no GOP harmony, they are the cheerleaders of fraud (Santos/Trump/Lake), deception(Santos/Trump/Lake), liars (Santos/Trump/Lake)...the cheats (Santos/Trump/Lake)..this new Congress is rife with worst kind of politicians, the Bad Cops are now running the precinct.

Luckily, the Senate stands in the way of them going full thug..but make no mistake, calamity is a forgone conclusion.

Keep the popcorn close but the puppet master (Traitor Trump) is sure to guarantee it.

BN747

BN747 wrote:

Luckily, the Senate stands in the way of them going full thug..but make no mistake, calamity is a forgone conclusion.

Keep the popcorn close but the puppet master (Traitor Trump) is sure to guarantee it.

BN747

Yes Manchin and Sinema have been a great check and balance for the fringe. Should continue.

NIKV69 wrote:

Yes Manchin and Sinema have been a great check and balance for the fringe. Should continue.

Funny thing how you note two in the Democrat party, where the Republican's have a many more members trying to put a check on their party's efforts. .

Democrats: two outliers seeking to maximize their advantage.

Republican's: 20, 30, 50? nutjobs all trying to maximize their advantage.

And at least the Dem outliers could be seen and respectable. That ain't the case for the Republican's.

Tugg

So what concessions and promises where made to get the final votes?

petertenthije wrote:

So what concessions and promises where made to get the final votes?

We don't know for certain. But reporting is that they were given:

1. a rules package that would permit amendments to be added on the floor, and other loosening that would allow them to alter legislation outside the committee process (lone wolf or pack).

2. a motion to vacate the Speaker position based on a single member's objection to the Speaker (lone wolf).

3. important committee memberships, including the highly influential Rules Committee which acts as a traffic cop for the flow of legislation. But others as well.

4. promises to give priority to specific legislation and investigative actions that they favor, including entitlement spending, defense spending (reducing support for Ukraine), border and immigration policy, investigating the Bidens, the DoJ, the FBI, the IRS, etc.

Basically all the bogeyman issues that Fox News complains about on a daily basis. You might call it the Tucker agenda. The question is what they will do, if any of the promises are not delivered or possible. I think we saw a preview over the last week.

Bottom line is they have empowered themselves at the expense of party integrity, and with the apparent consent of the party. It's a devil's bargain, & gamble that McCarthy has made to become Speaker. So now we'll see what comes of it.

Guess it's time to go to court to demand a recount.

McCarthy is going to be a lame duck as Speaker, worried about being removed at the whim of as little as one of the RWNJ hostage takers. A few crazies will be controlling the House but between the Senate and the veto power of Pres. Biden, a lot of harm can be limited. What could happen over the next 2 years is a 'do nothing' Congress, voters tire of the series of 'witch hunt' investigations, go too far with changes, shifting control back to the Democrats.

NIKV69 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Luckily, the Senate stands in the way of them going full thug..but make no mistake, calamity is a forgone conclusion.

Keep the popcorn close but the puppet master (Traitor Trump) is sure to guarantee it.

BN747

Yes Manchin and Sinema have been a great check and balance for the fringe. Should continue.

Amazing how some fully grown adults are incapable of discerning the difference between behaviors reflecting self-financial gain...


..and


Straight up lunatics (Gosar, Gaetz, Boobert Marjorie Traitor Green), Straight up Anti-Democratic Haters and Fighters of Equal Rights (147 members) and what makes America ...America.

...they identify themselves by opening their brains and sharing it publicly.

BN747

Tugger wrote:

Democrats: two outliers seeking to maximize their advantage.


Tugg

It's comical how when two moderate Dems speak up they are automatically referred to as being in it for themselves or for attention. This of course completely ridiculous and just more red herrings.

BN747 wrote:

Amazing how some fully grown adults are incapable of discerning the difference between behaviors reflecting self-financial gain...


BN747

As stated above this is just more nonsense. People in a party that don't tow the fringe line area automatically in it for money since they can't possibly have their own ideas or want to serve their district or state. It's a mindset that I am sure Schumer and the rest of the fringe love but it's lame. You would think after the losing the house they would reflect but of course it's more of the blame game.

NIKV69 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Democrats: two outliers seeking to maximize their advantage.


Tugg

It's comical how when two moderate Dems speak up they are automatically referred to as being in it for themselves or for attention. This of course completely ridiculous and just more red herrings.

BN747 wrote:

Amazing how some fully grown adults are incapable of discerning the difference between behaviors reflecting self-financial gain...


BN747

As stated above this is just more nonsense. People in a party that don't tow the fringe line area automatically in it for money since they can't possibly have their own ideas or want to serve their district or state. It's a mindset that I am sure Schumer and the rest of the fringe love but it's lame. You would think after the losing the house they would reflect but of course it's more of the blame game.

One thing is for certain, your political spectrum is so far off kilter by a galactic mile..
When one sees two Senators known for partying Elite style and courting the lobbyists the favor as Dem moderates...one hopes his next airline flight is by pilot who understands 'weight & balance'

And seeing 'fringe' in those who stand on the principles of TRUE law and orderly society and those who will snatch those things away in a heartbeat, especially at the behest of the Biggest Pathological Maniacal president America has ever known. No balance can exist in such a space exhibiting such a distraught thinking process.

...please keep sharing...

BN747

keesje wrote:

Someone said if you elect clowns, don't be surprised if you end up in a circus.

It’s EXACTLY the government that was voted for and, hence, what is deserved. McCarthy is totally enfeebled, won’t make good on any of his concessions to the Freedom as the other 415 will oppose it in various blocks-perhaps the whole 415, 213 Democrats as block or some combination. Once you given away the game, don’t expect to win later.

If, huge IF, McCarthy can actually deliver on budgets, appropriations bills and debt ceiling negotiations, he’d get my hat tip. I’m not betting on it. His main political problem is, he sold soul to Trump, did NOT nationalize the 2022 campaign resulting in a bare majority. Gingrich and Pelosi were better political actors which is why they both lead majorities. Rostenkowski and O’Neil were better at moving bills they Congress.

Enjoy the gridlock which is the best we can hope for. The markets liked it—up 700 points.

NIKV69 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Amazing how some fully grown adults are incapable of discerning the difference between behaviors reflecting self-financial gain...


BN747

As stated above this is just more nonsense. People in a party that don't tow the fringe line area automatically in it for money since they can't possibly have their own ideas or want to serve their district or state. It's a mindset that I am sure Schumer and the rest of the fringe love but it's lame. You would think after the losing the house they would reflect but of course it's more of the blame game.

amazing... You believe center/center right Schumer is fringe. How, exactly? Because he believes in the "big tent" of Democrats? Because he believes his party should compromise for the greater good of the nation instead of just accepting what a few demand because party before country?

Schumer center-right? That’s funny, I don’t care who you are. He’s center-right in the British Labour Party, maybe

NIKV69 wrote:

It's comical how when two moderate Dems speak up they are automatically referred to as being in it for themselves or for attention. This of course completely ridiculous and just more red herrings.

Just like any Republican who isn't a wholehearted Trumpster is a RINO.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Schumer center-right? That’s funny, I don’t care who you are. He’s center-right in the British Labour Party, maybe

I know really. Schumer, Pelosi, Murray etc all want huge taxes and spending, no guns and no bail laws but they are "center right" LOL. Again they would have reflected on why they lost the house instead they just double down. Two years of nothing getting done and gaslighting. See you in 2024.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Schumer center-right? That’s funny, I don’t care who you are. He’s center-right in the British Labour Party, maybe

I agree. He used to be to the far left of the party but the party has moved even farther left. Just like Cheney used to be far right until the lunatics came along and now she seems moderate.

NIKV69 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Schumer center-right? That’s funny, I don’t care who you are. He’s center-right in the British Labour Party, maybe

I know really. Schumer, Pelosi, Murray etc all want huge taxes and spending, no guns and no bail laws but they are "center right" LOL.

Exactly!...when we can all just make it simple and be just like Texas...'open carry weapons and no permits needed'...


..maybe, just maybe the mass killers will decrease because the Wild West never happened, what good does knowing (or learning from) history anyhow?

McCarthy, is he doinking that subservient androgynous kid that's stuck to his side..TikTok, you know?


BN747

NIKV69 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Schumer center-right? That’s funny, I don’t care who you are. He’s center-right in the British Labour Party, maybe

I know really. Schumer, Pelosi, Murray etc all want huge taxes and spending, no guns and no bail laws but they are "center right" LOL. Again they would have reflected on why they lost the house instead they just double down. Two years of nothing getting done and gaslighting. See you in 2024.

Actually, Democrats want to raise taxes on the morbidly wealthy to pay for things like the MAGA tax cuts for the morbidly wealthy and helping out seniors and veterans. Which, for some reason are all bad things?

WHEN moderate Republicans in the House find out how paralyzed MAGA Republicans have made things, they will switch parties and bring Democrats back into the majority to get things done.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

keesje wrote:

Someone said if you elect clowns, don't be surprised if you end up in a circus.

It’s EXACTLY the government that was voted for and, hence, what is deserved. McCarthy is totally enfeebled, won’t make good on any of his concessions to the Freedom as the other 415 will oppose it in various blocks-perhaps the whole 415, 213 Democrats as block or some combination. Once you given away the game, don’t expect to win later.

If, huge IF, McCarthy can actually deliver on budgets, appropriations bills and debt ceiling negotiations, he’d get my hat tip. I’m not betting on it. His main political problem is, he sold soul to Trump, did NOT nationalize the 2022 campaign resulting in a bare majority. Gingrich and Pelosi were better political actors which is why they both lead majorities. Rostenkowski and O’Neil were better at moving bills they Congress.

Enjoy the gridlock which is the best we can hope for. The markets liked it—up 700 points.

The markets are a silly way to gauge something like this— they’ve been bouncing around like a Jack rabbit in heat for a couple months now. Ultimately what is most likely going to happen is McCarthy is going to have to rely on Democrats to get anything through the House and the Democratic controlled Senate. Whatever scraps he threw at the troglodytes will be forgotten and ignored. To actually get anything done I see him making more concessions to moderate Democrats than anything else.

And if he does, they have a vote on whether to sack him

luckyone wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

keesje wrote:

Someone said if you elect clowns, don't be surprised if you end up in a circus.

It’s EXACTLY the government that was voted for and, hence, what is deserved. McCarthy is totally enfeebled, won’t make good on any of his concessions to the Freedom as the other 415 will oppose it in various blocks-perhaps the whole 415, 213 Democrats as block or some combination. Once you given away the game, don’t expect to win later.

If, huge IF, McCarthy can actually deliver on budgets, appropriations bills and debt ceiling negotiations, he’d get my hat tip. I’m not betting on it. His main political problem is, he sold soul to Trump, did NOT nationalize the 2022 campaign resulting in a bare majority. Gingrich and Pelosi were better political actors which is why they both lead majorities. Rostenkowski and O’Neil were better at moving bills they Congress.

Enjoy the gridlock which is the best we can hope for. The markets liked it—up 700 points.

The markets are a silly way to gauge something like this— they’ve been bouncing around like a Jack rabbit in heat for a couple months now. Ultimately what is most likely going to happen is McCarthy is going to have to rely on Democrats to get anything through the House and the Democratic controlled Senate. Whatever scraps he threw at the troglodytes will be forgotten and ignored. To actually get anything done I see him making more concessions to moderate Democrats than anything else.

The markets are rallying on inflation based data overall. The last session only recovered what the previous 3 sessions of Stock market lost. The overall market is stil down from Dec 1,

These are all generic item with debt cielings and budgets that the GOP panders to their base, but never delivers o. Based on the fact that the GOP can't even agree on a a speaker kind of tells you how poorly they will do coming up with effective bills. All we can expect out of this GOP led circus is probably a debt ceiling standoff because they still can't do math, and more coddling of the Trump criminal elements within the party.

McCarthy has proven time and again that he will sell out the USA for this political party and the most exreme and twisted elements within it.

One of the overlooked and more amusing parts of the last McCarthy ballot, is that the Republicans apparently did have the math wrong.

Based on full voting by the party, they believed they could afford 4 votes against McCarthy, and thus were watching the Other column to not exceed 4. But forgot that voting Present does not count as a vote, so the concessions by Gaetz and Boebert were not enough to win.

Realization of that was apparently what triggered the altercation on the floor. And also triggered the effort to get all the votes against McCarthy to be changed to Present. That allowed him to win with no additional support from the party.

seb146 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Schumer center-right? That’s funny, I don’t care who you are. He’s center-right in the British Labour Party, maybe

I know really. Schumer, Pelosi, Murray etc all want huge taxes and spending, no guns and no bail laws but they are "center right" LOL. Again they would have reflected on why they lost the house instead they just double down. Two years of nothing getting done and gaslighting. See you in 2024.

Actually, Democrats want to raise taxes on the morbidly wealthy to pay for things like the MAGA tax cuts for the morbidly wealthy and helping out seniors and veterans. Which, for some reason are all bad things?

WHEN moderate Republicans in the House find out how paralyzed MAGA Republicans have made things, they will switch parties and bring Democrats back into the majority to get things done.

What’s “morbidly wealthy.”? I didn’t know money was a killer. Second, the elderly are among tone most well-off in America. The top 50% pay 97% of the US income taxes, how much more do you want?

Appears that Gaetz was emulating Trump tactics. Making a ruckus over nothing and then using the ruckus to fundraise from the true believers. Wonder how much he raked in last week?

https://thehill.com/homenews/3804637-go ... ker-votes/

Avatar2go wrote:

Appears that Gaetz was emulating Trump tactics. Making a ruckus over nothing and then using the ruckus to fundraise from the true believers. Wonder how much he raked in last week?

https://thehill.com/homenews/3804637-go ... ker-votes/

Well nothing like electing frauds to the US congress. What is pathetic is that he represents the area where I grew up. Of course this is probably why I can't stand "conservative" politicians, as they are usually the most corrupt. I saw it all while growing up.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

seb146 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

I know really. Schumer, Pelosi, Murray etc all want huge taxes and spending, no guns and no bail laws but they are "center right" LOL. Again they would have reflected on why they lost the house instead they just double down. Two years of nothing getting done and gaslighting. See you in 2024.

Actually, Democrats want to raise taxes on the morbidly wealthy to pay for things like the MAGA tax cuts for the morbidly wealthy and helping out seniors and veterans. Which, for some reason are all bad things?

WHEN moderate Republicans in the House find out how paralyzed MAGA Republicans have made things, they will switch parties and bring Democrats back into the majority to get things done.

What’s “morbidly wealthy.”? I didn’t know money was a killer. Second, the elderly are among tone most well-off in America. The top 50% pay 97% of the US income taxes, how much more do you want?

The top 1% hold over 30% of the nation's wealth while the bottom 50% hold about 2%. Looking at a certain former president's tax returns, he paid zero in taxes. Just because the morbidly wealthy pay taxes, you must also include the fact they get more than they pay back while the rest of us pay and get nothing back. The top tax rate is 20% anyway, so where do you get your 97% rate from?

And, yes, "morbidly wealthy" because these people can afford to self-fund space flights and multiple yachts and multiple mansions and multiple cars and sports teams while those of us at the bottom can not afford to eat. But, let's give everything to the wealthy so they can trickle it down to the rest of us and we won't have to rely on the government....

So I have a concern: the GOP House has stated that they will, under no circumstances, allow the debt ceiling to go up without cuts to SS and Medicare. Obviously, the Democrats will consider no such thing.

DocLightning wrote:

So I have a concern: the GOP House has stated that they will, under no circumstances, allow the debt ceiling to go up without cuts to SS and Medicare. Obviously, the Democrats will consider no such thing.

Proof that "fiscal conservatives" are absolutely gutless. What was stopping them doing these cuts in 2016-2018 when they had the presidency and both houses of Congress? Only the fact that they'd have to own up to the results in front of their voters. But when there's someone else around to pass the buck to? Yeah, suddenly we don't have the money for SS and Medicare anymore (but did have the money for a huge vote-buying scheme, I mean tax cut, in 2017?)

DocLightning wrote:

So I have a concern: the GOP House has stated that they will, under no circumstances, allow the debt ceiling to go up without cuts to SS and Medicare. Obviously, the Democrats will consider no such thing.

Well for starters, they could show us some good faith and slash their over inflated pay checks. I certainly think there’s more then one of them who doesn’t earn their keep.

Newark727 wrote:

DocLightning wrote:

So I have a concern: the GOP House has stated that they will, under no circumstances, allow the debt ceiling to go up without cuts to SS and Medicare. Obviously, the Democrats will consider no such thing.

Proof that "fiscal conservatives" are absolutely gutless. ...

Lesson learned when St. Reagan killed the nations National Health Care/ Psychiatric Institutions...

..result, the out-sorts homeless mentally unstables you see in every city.

...but the fiscal conservative financial strategy works every time....the balance sheet always 'looks' good.


BN747

Matt Gaetz Says He 'Ran Out of Stuff to Ask For' From McCarthy......

Thats it rhat thar....

DocLightning wrote:

So I have a concern: the GOP House has stated that they will, under no circumstances, allow the debt ceiling to go up without cuts to SS and Medicare. Obviously, the Democrats will consider no such thing.

As long as the Dems hold the Senate, never gonna happen...

MTG and Trump have now confirmed, on Fox News, that Trump put forward the idea of changing all the McCarthy objectors to vote Present, to allow him to be elected Speaker, with no additional support.

So McCarthy will continue to be beholden to Trump, and the MAGA rebels, unfortunately.