https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/09/poli ... index.html


What’s not known is if these were ever declassified, if they weren’t, yikes…

Keep playing "gotcha" and "both sides do it" From the CNN article:

"The discovery of these documents was made by the President's attorneys," (Richard) Sauber (Biden's council) added. "The documents were not the subject of any previous request or inquiry by the Archives. Since that discovery, the President's personal attorneys have cooperated with the Archives and the Department of Justice in a process to ensure that any Obama-Biden Administration records are appropriately in the possession of the Archives."

There was no lawyering up, no blocking investigations, no denial, no charges of "executive privilege" being levied....

...(Yawn...)...

seb146 wrote:

Keep playing "gotcha" and "both sides do it"

Don't worry Seb! I'm sure we'll get 2 years of this once MTG gavels in the "Biden Crime Family Committee!"

You're gonna get to see soooo much of Hunter Biden on CSPAN.

I bet when his Press Sec is asked about it she will say it wasn't "Top of Mind" so it's ok

This will be more grist for the MAGA patented False Equivalence Mill to grind. Never mind that there was no attempt to obfuscate, deny, withhold, declassify, claim ownership, or litigate. They will falsely say it is the exact same circumstance. I can hear it already.

The all new CNN, trying to beat Fox on breaking story

Update: Garland is now investigating this, so now the people that believe the investigation Garland has ongoing related to Trump can now shut up and say it isn’t politically motivated anymore. (It never was)

KPTKRampy wrote:

Update: Garland is now investigating this, so now the people that believe the investigation Garland has ongoing related to Trump can now shut up and say it isn’t politically motivated anymore. (It never was)

To be exactly correct Garland is not personally investigating this -- as a Biden appointee, he has a conflict of interest. It will be investigated by an appointed independent special prosecutor.

IPFreely wrote:

KPTKRampy wrote:

Update: Garland is now investigating this, so now the people that believe the investigation Garland has ongoing related to Trump can now shut up and say it isn’t politically motivated anymore. (It never was)

To be exactly correct Garland is not personally investigating this -- as a Biden appointee, he has a conflict of interest. It will be investigated by an appointed independent special prosecutor.

It's being investigated by a DoJ Trump appointee, John Lausch, who is a US Attorney in Chicago. The investigation has been quietly ongoing since November. I doubt it will find anything of substance, as opposed to Trump, who repeatedly claimed he had returned documents, when he hadn't, and may be facing obstruction charges.

Trump is already on social media demanding that search warrants be executed on Biden's residences. Adam Kinzinger pointed out that all Trump needs is any kind of distraction to help him fundraise.

Cha-ching! The Equivalence-O-Matic will be getting a workout again.

KPTKRampy wrote:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html
What’s not known is if these were ever declassified, if they weren’t, yikes…

Well, obviously he can declassify them just by thinking about it... just like Herr Trump.

Right?

NIKV69 wrote:

I bet when his Press Sec is asked about it she will say it wasn't "Top of Mind" so it's ok

Knew this response would be here even before I opened the thread.

Since Biden is president right now, doesn't he have the right to have anything he wants at his residences anyways ?

Aesma wrote:

Since Biden is president right now, doesn't he have the right to have anything he wants at his residences anyways ?

These have been there since his VP days.

Aesma wrote:

Since Biden is president right now, doesn't he have the right to have anything he wants at his residences anyways ?

Yes, but these documents were locked in his office space since before his campaign for President. They are remnants of his activities as Vice President. Apparently the Archives were not aware of them at all. That's probably what is being investigated.

It's likely they were just forgotten, and Biden has made no claim to them. Which is very different from Trump who claimed his documents belong to him.

I understand that it might have been illegal at some point in the past. But now ?

Very stupid on the part of the Biden administration. Trump and his followers don't need anything they can use to deflect from Trump's likely criminal undertakings. This is a perfect distraction for them. As others have said, the facts don't matter, they'll simply shout "Biden did it too" from now on.

TriJets wrote:

Very stupid on the part of the Biden administration. Trump and his followers don't need anything they can use to deflect from Trump's likely criminal undertakings. This is a perfect distraction for them. As others have said, the facts don't matter, they'll simply shout "Biden did it too" from now on.

Not so, if they've been in one location since his VP days..then there is clearly no malfeasance.

Picking the stuff up and taking it with you and parking it in the mop closet, your desk and every Chinese spy milling about the joint...
..that's nowhere near the same. But your point of the Anti-Facts crowd, details mean nothing.

There's is no story here. But the Georgia DA about to announce criminal charges over 'the other perfect call'..are about to drop. That's a story with others waiting for this shoe to drop and we cannot worry about or take in consideration the thoughts of the MAGA factless. Their thoughts hold as much validity as their words like one known internet clown 'where was Obama during 9/11".
These are the realms of a child and that's it. Treat them as such and not as sound adults.

I forgot, so this and every upcoming election cycle..the 'we have to reach out to the middle and understand why they feel so ostracized' nonsense. These people choose to be obtuse with an intentional desire to prefer 'select ignorance'. Let them stay that way and get as angry as they wish..they chose it.

Reason can only go so far with recalcitrant idiots. Yes idiots. Fighting education? You're an idiot.


BN747

To me this shows there are not enough controls on location and custody of such documents by President, VP, WH and VP staff and the Archives. There needs to be a major revision laws and policy to limit such improper possession now and in the future.
I guess this will be another charge of Impeachment the majority Republicans in the House will use against Biden.

ltbewr wrote:

To me this shows there are not enough controls on location and custody of such documents by President, VP, WH and VP staff and the Archives. There needs to be a major revision laws and policy to limit such improper possession now and in the future.
I guess this will be another charge of Impeachment the majority Republicans in the House will use against Biden.

The difference here is what was the difference in how the archives knew how Trump had the docs vs what Biden had?

Biden had far fewer documents, and the amount suggests oversight issues on Biden/Biden Staff and the documents departments.

Trumps ommissions seem more nefarious. As he was asked for them back, and still the archives wasn't sure what he actually had.

Either way there needs to be some changes in document handling.

On the plus side - There's no evidence that Biden was busily flushing the documents down the toilet ( or is that normal practice?)

ltbewr wrote:

To me this shows there are not enough controls on location and custody of such documents by President, VP, WH and VP staff and the Archives. There needs to be a major revision laws and policy to limit such improper possession now and in the future.

That's a legitimate point, actually the most important point in all this, and one that has been raised by Democrats as well. Classified means document control, and there are obviously some cracks in the system for both of these events to occur. So hopefully some improvement in the future.

I would expect Biden to own up to this if a mistake was made. I doubt it was anything other than a mistake, and the investigation should demonstrate that. Even though politically he will come under extreme attack, it's the best thing for the country to just be honest and address the problem.

Avatar2go wrote:

I would expect Biden to own up to this if a mistake was made. I doubt it was anything other than a mistake, and the investigation should demonstrate that. Even though politically he will come under extreme attack, it's the best thing for the country to just be honest and address the problem.

Biden actually has owned up to it. His administration came to the public and said "we found these classified documents in an office he used while he was in Philadelphia and an independent investigation is underway". He came forward. He is cooperating. He owned this.

seb146 wrote:

Biden actually has owned up to it. His administration came to the public and said "we found these classified documents in an office he used while he was in Philadelphia and an independent investigation is underway". He came forward. He is cooperating. He owned this.

Agreed, although the initial reports are that he wasn't aware of the documents at all. While that may be true, it would be better for him to say that we need to improve handling of documents to avoid problems, regardless of who is responsible, and that the rules apply equally to him. I think that would be the best response for the nation, if you set politics aside.

The difference is that Trump legally held the power to declassify, and claims they were declassified. The problem with the DOJ's investigation is that the declassification claim can't be easily disproven, and any limits on declassification haven't been tested in court.

Biden had no such power, so regardless of the number of docs, he's in violation with no plausible way out.

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Avatar2go wrote:

Agreed, although the initial reports are that he wasn't aware of the documents at all. While that may be true, it would be better for him to say that we need to improve handling of documents to avoid problems, regardless of who is responsible, and that the rules apply equally to him. I think that would be the best response for the nation, if you set politics aside.

He isn't aware of many things most days, so this is unsurprising.

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Eolesen wrote:

The difference is that Trump legally held the power to declassify, and claims they were declassified. The problem with the DOJ's investigation is that the declassification claim can't be easily disproven, and any limits on declassification haven't been tested in court.

Biden had no such power, so regardless of the number of docs, he's in violation with no plausible way out.

Not sure if you have been following this case in the courts, but Trump's claims of declassification were rejected outright, based on the complete absence of proof, or following any of the required procedures. Trump's claims of being above those procedures, and declassifying with his mind, were dismissed as nonsense. Which they totally were.

Further, unlike Trump, Biden has made no claim of declassification. Nor could he if he wasn't aware the documents were there. So your point here makes no rational sense.

He isn't aware of many things most days, so this is unsurprising.

Biden clarified today that he's been advised by counsel to not discuss this while the investigation is on-going. But looks forward to speaking about it when it concludes. Which should be shortly as it's been underway since November.

Eolesen wrote:

The difference is that Trump legally held the power to declassify, and claims they were declassified.

Often claimed with zero evidence or proof that it ever happened. It seems you've believed more Trump lies.

scbriml wrote:

Eolesen wrote:

The difference is that Trump legally held the power to declassify, and claims they were declassified.

Often claimed with zero evidence or proof that it ever happened. It seems you've believed more Trump lies.

But did Trump de-classify them before or after the FBI planted them at Mar-a-Lago. which he also claimed.

Eolesen wrote:

The difference is that Trump legally held the power to declassify, and claims they were declassified. The problem with the DOJ's investigation is that the declassification claim can't be easily disproven, and any limits on declassification haven't been tested in court.

Here is how declassification works

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/ ... -documents
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/nati ... k/3164522/
https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanew ... authority/

Not simply "I said it is declassified, therefore it is!"

Eolesen wrote:

Biden had no such power, so regardless of the number of docs, he's in violation with no plausible way out.

No one president or person has that authority. The National Archives were demanding the return of classified documents from the MAGA administration they knew were missing. The National Archives didn't know Biden's documents were missing until the Biden Administration took them to the Archives and said "we found these, here they are". See the difference?

Regardless, DOJ can't REASONABLY attempt to prosecute Trump for this without also charging Biden.

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Eolesen wrote:

Regardless, DOJ can't REASONABLY attempt to prosecute Trump for this without also charging Biden.

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Why not? The Archives asked for the Records back, Trump refused and lied.

Biden's team found the records and turned them over.

VolvoBus wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Eolesen wrote:

The difference is that Trump legally held the power to declassify, and claims they were declassified.

Often claimed with zero evidence or proof that it ever happened. It seems you've believed more Trump lies.

But did Trump de-classify them before or after the FBI planted them at Mar-a-Lago. which he also claimed.

Trump also claimed he'd returned them all.

How can you tell when Trump is lying? His lips are moving!

Eolesen wrote:

Regardless, DOJ can't REASONABLY attempt to prosecute Trump for this without also charging Biden.

Tell me you don't understand the significant difference, without telling me you don't understand the significant difference.

Personal attacks will be removed, and users will be warned or banned. Discuss the topic or don't participate.

✈️ atcsundevil

Eolesen wrote:

Regardless, DOJ can't REASONABLY attempt to prosecute Trump for this without also charging Biden.

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Factually incorrect. The two cases are not remotely the same.

They found more…

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/11/poli ... index.html

Humor me, I don’t know much about the american legal system, at this point, is it a crime?

KPTKRampy wrote:

They found more…

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/11/poli ... index.html

Humor me, I don’t know much about the american legal system, at this point, is it a crime?

As with the documents at Mar-A-Lago, there must be an investigation. Unlike the documents at Mar-A-Lago, Biden is cooperating fully.

KPTKRampy wrote:

They found more…

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/11/poli ... index.html

Humor me, I don’t know much about the american legal system, at this point, is it a crime?

Both incidents would be violations of the statutes regarding handling of classified materials. As I posted earlier, the legal principle of mens rea (criminal intent) also applies here, as to whether a crime was committed.

With Biden, there is no evidence at present, that he knew the materials were at those locations. With Trump, he claimed in court that the materials belonged to him, as his reason for not returning them when asked. So there is evidence that he took them intentionally, which would be a crime.

Further with Trump, there is the issue of obstruction, in falsifying the statements that the materials had been returned, when they had not. That does not apply at all in the Biden case, where he voluntarily turned over the materials.

seb146 wrote:

As with the documents at Mar-A-Lago, there must be an investigation. Unlike the documents at Mar-A-Lago, Biden is cooperating fully.

Fully? If he was being "transparent" like he said he would be he wouldn't have waited so long to say something. These were found on November 2nd. Why are we just hearing about this now?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden- ... 1673461500

NIKV69 wrote:

Fully? If he was being "transparent" like he said he would be he wouldn't have waited so long to say something. These were found on November 2nd. Why are we just hearing about this now?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden- ... 1673461500

As Biden stated, he's cooperating fully, which means not speaking about an active investigation, as he was advised by counsel.

Trump takes the opposite approach, openly discussing his case on social media. But that damaged his lawsuit, when judges cited the contradictions between his public statements, and the legal positions he took in court.

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

As with the documents at Mar-A-Lago, there must be an investigation. Unlike the documents at Mar-A-Lago, Biden is cooperating fully.

Fully? If he was being "transparent" like he said he would be he wouldn't have waited so long to say something. These were found on November 2nd. Why are we just hearing about this now?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden- ... 1673461500

Mmmm...because details of the investigation leaked.

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

As with the documents at Mar-A-Lago, there must be an investigation. Unlike the documents at Mar-A-Lago, Biden is cooperating fully.

Fully? If he was being "transparent" like he said he would be he wouldn't have waited so long to say something. These were found on November 2nd. Why are we just hearing about this now?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden- ... 1673461500

Just because he is not making public statements, does not mean he is not transparant towards the officials that are in charge of this investigation.

I know you would love to finally have a "gotcha" moment on Biden, and this event might turn into one. But at this point we're not there yet.

petertenthije wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

As with the documents at Mar-A-Lago, there must be an investigation. Unlike the documents at Mar-A-Lago, Biden is cooperating fully.

Fully? If he was being "transparent" like he said he would be he wouldn't have waited so long to say something. These were found on November 2nd. Why are we just hearing about this now?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden- ... 1673461500

Just because he is not making public statements, does not mean he is not transparant towards the officials that are in charge of this investigation.

I know you would love to finally have a "gotcha" moment on Biden, and this event might turn into one. But at this point we're not there yet.

I think Newt Gingrich was the one who said it, but he was right when he (paraphasing) said that with respect to Biden, Republicans have mistakenly been playing the Trump game of everything running like a reality TV show and focusing (ironically) on the media image. He's old and trips over his tongue, but Biden is a seasoned politician and plays the back-of-the-house game better than Trump.

Investigate away! Trying to compare the Biden documents issue with Trump's is like comparing apples to Brussels sprouts. Biden's fully cooperating, not running defense, not making excuses, and wasn't anywhere near the "scene of the crime" for at least 6 years.

No matter what the GOP does in Biden's case, it will always appear as if they're trying to minimize Trump's documents situation.

More documents found in Biden's garage. Not in a locked cabinet or closet. His garage. Next to the paint cans.
The ways these documents are handled, beit Hillary, Trump or Biden is shameful.

Remember, if it was you or me doing this, we'd be hanging upside down in Gitmo by now.
Let's not pretend there are not two (or more) standards of justice at play,

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

As with the documents at Mar-A-Lago, there must be an investigation. Unlike the documents at Mar-A-Lago, Biden is cooperating fully.

Fully? If he was being "transparent" like he said he would be he wouldn't have waited so long to say something. These were found on November 2nd. Why are we just hearing about this now?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden- ... 1673461500

Actually, I agree. If this had been found out before November, this would have been the only topic Republicans ran on to possibly get their oft hoped for "red wave". Could it be that they were taken by mistake and a low priority? That these were not nuclear codes or military capabilities of other nations? Perhaps these documents were declassified by another department upon his leaving office?

Better yet, MAGA media could simply let investigators do their job instead of jumping to conclusions. Innocent until proven guilty. Isn't that what they say every time a Republican is caught red handed?

Bricktop wrote:

More documents found in Biden's garage. Not in a locked cabinet or closet. His garage. Next to the paint cans.
The ways these documents are handled, beit Hillary, Trump or Biden is shameful.

Remember, if it was you or me doing this, we'd be hanging upside down in Gitmo by now.
Let's not pretend there are not two (or more) standards of justice at play,

Nobody pretends that really - have a name, you're basically OK. If you're a nobody, the book gets thrown from day one.

What is troubling is with all the firestorm that the Trump documents issue caused, no-one in the Biden team thought to do these searches before presumably last November. I'd be furious if I was Biden. Even if he didn't think there was anything, make damn sure.

Bricktop wrote:

What is troubling is with all the firestorm that the Trump documents issue caused, no-one in the Biden team thought to do these searches before presumably last November. I'd be furious if I was Biden. Even if he didn't think there was anything, make damn sure.

The Biden team alerted the authorities and have cooperated every step of the way. Trump did the exact opposite, to this day. Fun to see republicans Susan Collins concerned about document retention since *checks watch* Monday.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.