ACDC8 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Ford has had sub brands for years as well, Lincoln, Merkur, Mercury. Bronco could also be added to the list .

Bronco and Mustang aren't brands - they're models.

Are you sure about Bronco

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-br ... fo-teaser/

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/ford-bron ... jeep-rival

and Mustang

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-mu ... ub-brands/

You're on a slippery slope trying to argue that Bronco and Mustang are not sub brands.

Kiwirob wrote:

Are you sure about Bronco

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-br ... fo-teaser/

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/ford-bron ... jeep-rival

and Mustang

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-mu ... ub-brands/

You're on a slippery slope trying to argue that Bronco and Mustang are not sub brands.

Read your articles very carefully - Ford is making them a brand, that doesn't mean they were - which is what the whole discussion point is, in that they are taking a model name such as the Mustang and trying to turn it into a sub-brand.

The Mustang has been around almost 60 years and it has always been one specific type of car, never a brand - that is until the marketing department at Ford decided to turn the name into a sub-brand in the hopes to boost sales of its EV CUV.

That's like Porsche taking the 911 and turning it into a sub-brand of various types of vehicles.

ACDC8 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Are you sure about Bronco

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-br ... fo-teaser/

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/ford-bron ... jeep-rival

and Mustang

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-mu ... ub-brands/

You're on a slippery slope trying to argue that Bronco and Mustang are not sub brands.

Read your articles very carefully - Ford is making them a brand, that doesn't mean they were - which is what the whole discussion point is, in that they are taking a model name such as the Mustang and trying to turn it into a sub-brand.

The Mustang has been around almost 60 years and it has always been one specific type of car, never a brand - that is until the marketing department at Ford decided to turn the name into a sub-brand in the hopes to boost sales of its EV CUV.

That's like Porsche taking the 911 and turning it into a sub-brand of various types of vehicles.

Read the dates of the articles. The Bronco is a subbrand that happened when it was relaunched, it's already multiple vehicles with more on the way. I'd argue the Mustang became one when the Mach E was launched. I think the giveaway is no Ford badging.

Kiwirob wrote:

Read the dates of the articles.

And the Bronco nameplate, despite a lengthy hiatus, predates those articles by a very long time.

Kiwirob wrote:

The Bronco is a subbrand that happened when it was relaunched,

And that's the discussion point, they're taking a model name and turning it in to a sub-brand.

Kiwirob wrote:

it's already multiple vehicles with more on the way.

Exactly, but if Ford decided to build another sub-compact hatchback or sedan, and slapped the Bronco name on it, that would just be just as silly as it is putting the Mustang name on a 4 door CUV.

Kiwirob wrote:

I'd argue the Mustang became one when the Mach E was launched. I think the giveaway is no Ford badging.

That is correct, and that's what has some people rolling their eyes. The Mustang has a very long heritage and a very loyal fan base and putting the Mustang name on a 4 door CUV is more insulting than the Mustang II.

Kiwirob wrote:

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I think you’ll find they all followed Mercedes the M Class came out in 97, the Escalade and BMW X5 in 99, the Cayenne and VW Toureag in 2002.

The creation of SUV isn’t the topic I’m talking about here. Ford and GM have had those for decades. It’s the creation of the “sub-brand” concept. The brand within a brand. Mustang for Ford, and Corvette for GM.

Ford has had sub brands for years as well, Lincoln, Merkur, Mercury. Bronco could also be added to the list .

Those are different brands, although I can see how the badge engineering and shared dealerships that went on for so long could blur the lines.

Bronco is a great example of a sub brand, but that wasn’t until recently. Before the re-introduction it was just a model with variants. After the re-introduction af few years ago it was two models that both have the Bronco name that are unrelated other than maybe some shared drivetrain components. Hence creating a sub-brand.

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

Those are different brands, although I can see how the badge engineering and shared dealerships that went on for so long could blur the lines.

Ford and Mercury were another one of those quirky things - they sold the same car, just a few little tweaks and different badges just like Pontiac and Chevy or Dodge and Plymouth. Ford had the Mustang and Mercury had the Capri.

Aesma wrote:

There are already motors and batteries without (or with little) rare earth.

And as you just said hydrogen cars are also EVs, they need electric motors to work, they just produce their electricity from hydrogen in real time.

Hydrogen leaks because it's the smallest atom, and it's stored under pressure. Another challenge is because it's in a motor vehicle, it's hard to prevent any flexing or cracking in the storage vessels, pipes or connections.

I'm already pissed off that my printer ink cartridges let evaporation happen. I'm gonna be more pissed if my car's fuel slowly disappears, even more if it explodes after it leaves the car.

Revelation wrote:

Aesma wrote:

There are already motors and batteries without (or with little) rare earth.

And as you just said hydrogen cars are also EVs, they need electric motors to work, they just produce their electricity from hydrogen in real time.

Hydrogen leaks because it's the smallest atom, and it's stored under pressure. Another challenge is because it's in a motor vehicle, it's hard to prevent any flexing or cracking in the storage vessels, pipes or connections.

I'm already pissed off that my printer ink cartridges let evaporation happen. I'm gonna be more pissed if my car's fuel slowly disappears, even more if it explodes after it leaves the car.

There are lot more questions than that, the simplest being transporting hydrogen to all places. Unlike wind or solar which and large battery installations, IIRC the Horndale battery was finished with couple of months after Musk shot that tweet saying we will either do it within that time frame or we will do it for free. Don't know or think that any hydrogen creation utility installation can be finished in that sort of time-frame. Most of such installations would take years and whole lot of permissions they would need. I am sure no politician would like a hydrogen utility installation in his backyard. I part remember some far-right politician in the UK who was very much for fracking but when a project was announced in his backyard he promptly went with local groups and saw that fracking didn't happen on his lands. Sadly, don't remember the name of the politician. I am sure others can help. I am sure hydrogen would play its part in the new energy mix, not so sure about its usage for car, trucks etc. Would need whole lot of pipelines just like for fossil fuels and that would be far more expensive because they require far more careful handling than fossil fuels IIRC. Also conversion is tricky, expensive and lossy. I could go on. As I said I do see it being used in industrial applications where it is used today, generic use in cars, buses and homes I'm very much doubtful. The economics just doesn't pan out. Too many things would have to be subsidized and don't think it would be that great for environment. Wind, solar are essentially free, what those machines are doing are simply trapping the energy already there. Tidal, similar thing. Things which are easier, straightforward should be used.

Revelation wrote:

I'm already pissed off that my printer ink cartridges let evaporation happen. I'm gonna be more pissed if my car's fuel slowly disappears, even more if it explodes after it leaves the car.

BEVs also lose charge when stationary. Teslas very especially since they never fully shut down and have this permanently connected features like sentry mode.

JJJ wrote:

Revelation wrote:

I'm already pissed off that my printer ink cartridges let evaporation happen. I'm gonna be more pissed if my car's fuel slowly disappears, even more if it explodes after it leaves the car.

BEVs also lose charge when stationary. Teslas very especially since they never fully shut down and have this permanently connected features like sentry mode.

True, but they are doing some function or the other. I do see things becoming easier and more complex as more A.I. comes in but that is probably another discussion altogether. If you do more analysis, then sure energy is gonna be spent somewhere or the other. And that analysis may help the driver to do better, perform better or give him/her suggestions for next time. There is possibility of gamification of it as well but that as I shared would be a whole different discussion.

pune wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Revelation wrote:

I'm already pissed off that my printer ink cartridges let evaporation happen. I'm gonna be more pissed if my car's fuel slowly disappears, even more if it explodes after it leaves the car.

BEVs also lose charge when stationary. Teslas very especially since they never fully shut down and have this permanently connected features like sentry mode.

True, but they are doing some function or the other.

As long as it eats into their range who cares?

If it's a downside for FCEVs then it's also a downside for BEVs.

And part of this 10% electric cars, I’ve seen here in my neighbourhood in Madrid, Chinese electric cars. Two MG’s and one LYNK & co car. I’ve never heard of the LYNC & co brand before. We have several Teala’s and Hyundai’s and VW’s but it looks like the Chinese cars are starting to sell.

Anyone else notice Chinese cars starting to appear?

JJJ wrote:

BEVs also lose charge when stationary. Teslas very especially since they never fully shut down and have this permanently connected features like sentry mode.

Agree, that is an issue but most people will have chargers at home and few will have hydrogen generators.

Repeatedly I have read, rare earths are not rare. They just haven't been needed, and so a limited supply chain exists currently.

pune wrote:

…IIRC the Horndale battery was finished with couple of months after Musk shot that tweet saying we will either do it within that time frame or we will do it for free. Don't know or think that any hydrogen creation utility installation can be finished in that sort of time-frame. Most of such installations would take years...

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Saying one project was finished in a couple of months totally ignores the many years of incremental development in battery technology it took to get to that point.

Setting that aside, you seem to be arguing in effect, if it can’t be done today (or within a couple of months) it will never be done. Which ignores the whole of human history.

Charles H. Duell the Commissioner of the US patent office in 1899 is famous for supposedly saying that "everything that can be invented has been invented." He probably didn’t but it’s the same kind of logic.

I have much more faith in science and engineering than you apparently do. And just because it won’t be done in two months or two years or maybe two decades doesn’t mean it won’t be done.

Per my earlier comment, the oceans are two thirds full of hydrogen, just brimming with potential energy. We will figure out how to tap into it - even though it may take some time.

Revelation wrote:

JJJ wrote:

BEVs also lose charge when stationary. Teslas very especially since they never fully shut down and have this permanently connected features like sentry mode.

Agree, that is an issue but most people will have chargers at home and few will have hydrogen generators.

Very few people have gasoline pumps in their garages either and yet have managed to fuel their cars for generations.

QF7 wrote:

pune wrote:

…IIRC the Horndale battery was finished with couple of months after Musk shot that tweet saying we will either do it within that time frame or we will do it for free. Don't know or think that any hydrogen creation utility installation can be finished in that sort of time-frame. Most of such installations would take years...

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Saying one project was finished in a couple of months totally ignores the many years of incremental development in battery technology it took to get to that point.

Setting that aside, you seem to be arguing in effect, if it can’t be done today (or within a couple of months) it will never be done. Which ignores the whole of human history.

Charles H. Duell the Commissioner of the US patent office in 1899 is famous for supposedly saying that "everything that can be invented has been invented." He probably didn’t but it’s the same kind of logic.

I have much more faith in science and engineering than you apparently do. And just because it won’t be done in two months or two years or maybe two decades doesn’t mean it won’t be done.

Per my earlier comment, the oceans are two thirds full of hydrogen, just brimming with potential energy. We will figure out how to tap into it - even though it may take some time.

I agree, I do hope it works out but currently it is not. One thing that you also have not looked into. The battery technology was kept hidden for 50 years, if it would have been out in the market when it was, then we would have been 50 years ahead in technology. It is possible that there may be some technology which is under lock and key due to greed, it could be hydrogen, it could be something way better, we will never know until it comes out in the open.

ACDC8 wrote:

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

Those are different brands, although I can see how the badge engineering and shared dealerships that went on for so long could blur the lines.

Ford and Mercury were another one of those quirky things - they sold the same car, just a few little tweaks and different badges just like Pontiac and Chevy or Dodge and Plymouth. Ford had the Mustang and Mercury had the Capri.

They (Ford and Lincoln) still are fundamentally the same cars. There are more differences now between them though than there were in the 90’s-00’s.

Similarly, many Lexus and Toyota models are fundamentally the same too. The Lexus ES and the Toyota Camry being the most obvious.

mad99 wrote:

Anyone else notice Chinese cars starting to appear?

Not a single one - they're not sold in Canada.

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

They (Ford and Lincoln) still are fundamentally the same cars. There are more differences now between them though than there were in the 90’s-00’s.

Similarly, many Lexus and Toyota models are fundamentally the same too. The Lexus ES and the Toyota Camry being the most obvious.

For sure.

Back to the branding thing, at least VAG started a new brand for their EVs and put them under the new I.D. name - instead of using the Beetle name lol.

I just don't see how the percentages of EV sold would increase significantly unless the Big 5 started to offers more competitive products into the market.

Personally, I see significant adoption in few short years, and then slow down in demand unless there are major changes in the market offerings.

ewt340 wrote:

I just don't see how the percentages of EV sold would increase significantly unless the Big 5 started to offers more competitive products into the market.

Personally, I see significant adoption in few short years, and then slow down in demand unless there are major changes in the market offerings.

Most of the legacy manufacturers have two pain points, they do not have the technology and the incentive to change and train the workers. For over a decade or more they told everybody that EV's were a fad. The consumers are voting with their wallet and they find they have no product or product is not competitive enough. So they sell a vehicle with compromises. The Chinese have been copying each and everything that Tesla has been doing including the giga casting machines. I have yet to see the big 5 go for it.

https://electrek.co/2021/11/30/tesla-gi ... utomakers/

Many of the Chinese automakers are also doing structural batteries and prices that are more than competitive. Unless the big 5 don't take rapid strides they sadly will simply fade away.

pune wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

I just don't see how the percentages of EV sold would increase significantly unless the Big 5 started to offers more competitive products into the market.

Personally, I see significant adoption in few short years, and then slow down in demand unless there are major changes in the market offerings.

Most of the legacy manufacturers have two pain points, they do not have the technology and the incentive to change and train the workers. For over a decade or more they told everybody that EV's were a fad. The consumers are voting with their wallet and they find they have no product or product is not competitive enough. So they sell a vehicle with compromises. The Chinese have been copying each and everything that Tesla has been doing including the giga casting machines. I have yet to see the big 5 go for it.

https://electrek.co/2021/11/30/tesla-gi ... utomakers/

Many of the Chinese automakers are also doing structural batteries and prices that are more than competitive. Unless the big 5 don't take rapid strides they sadly will simply fade away.

I think the Japanese and the Korean in particular focuses a lot in other market like Indonesia or Brazil. Where the demand for EV is still extremely low.

Their bread basket is more spread out unlike Tesla. Hopefully with Toyota new leadership, something would happen.

ewt340 wrote:

pune wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

I just don't see how the percentages of EV sold would increase significantly unless the Big 5 started to offers more competitive products into the market.

Personally, I see significant adoption in few short years, and then slow down in demand unless there are major changes in the market offerings.

Most of the legacy manufacturers have two pain points, they do not have the technology and the incentive to change and train the workers. For over a decade or more they told everybody that EV's were a fad. The consumers are voting with their wallet and they find they have no product or product is not competitive enough. So they sell a vehicle with compromises. The Chinese have been copying each and everything that Tesla has been doing including the giga casting machines. I have yet to see the big 5 go for it.

https://electrek.co/2021/11/30/tesla-gi ... utomakers/

Many of the Chinese automakers are also doing structural batteries and prices that are more than competitive. Unless the big 5 don't take rapid strides they sadly will simply fade away.

I think the Japanese and the Korean in particular focuses a lot in other market like Indonesia or Brazil. Where the demand for EV is still extremely low.

Their bread basket is more spread out unlike Tesla. Hopefully with Toyota new leadership, something would happen.

I genuinely hope so, otherwise they lose a lot. Most of the Japanese automakers have followed Toyota lead rather than doing their own thing. Do have hopes from Korean but tempered. Would love to see more competition but right now it's between Tesla and the Chinese.

Materials science, for which my shorthand definition is quantum physics meets engineering, has been essential for battery production. And probably just about everything else used in a modern vehicle. It really did not hit the ground running until the closing years of the last century. EVs without materials science would not be sell-able.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Materials science, for which my shorthand definition is quantum physics meets engineering, has been essential for battery production. And probably just about everything else used in a modern vehicle. It really did not hit the ground running until the closing years of the last century. EVs without materials science would not be sell-able.

Not really. There were battery operated vehicles almost 120 odd years ago. But there was a mysterious fire. Time and time again vested interests were against battery technology.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2021 ... s-too-soon

The Edison fire lab after which he discontinued the work tells you the story.

Then similarly there were cars in 1970 and then in 2001, each time whenever somebody did the vehicles were scrapped. All of this in public domain as to what happened.

Toyota is again to its old tricks, seems the new leadership didn't have any change. They still want to produce majority gas vehicles and are ignoring what advances are happening -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQngpP3MLG8

Describe for me an EV made with 1950s technology with 300 miles range, 0-60 acceleration in less than 8 seconds, and with over the air updating, and level 3 charging, and advanced driver assist features. . It probably would not have sold even in 1950. I can imagine, in fact I have driven and would enjoy driving today some 1950s cars.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Describe for me an EV made with 1950s technology with 300 miles range, 0-60 acceleration in less than 8 seconds, and with over the air updating, and level 3 charging, and advanced driver assist features. . It probably would not have sold even in 1950. I can imagine, in fact I have driven and would enjoy driving today some 1950s cars.

True. Who knows what would have been possible if they were given a chance. Many technologies have been put in the back pocket for generations so that 'current products' can survive. Another e.g. from the same era is LED. Again, something that was invented in 1950's and saw the day of the light when we got into emergency climate change. Today, nobody will say that LED lightning isn't better than traditional lights. In most places I would reckon LED lightning has taken all over. Almost all businesses I know use that, from small to big, same things in home. They bought and hidden the inventions for 50-60 years so they could get super profits which they did.

None of that, as particularly batteries, possible without materials science.

Have you seen those news clips of miles long traffic jams in Texas due to cold weather and impassable ice covered roads.
Imagine the range anxiety if you were sitting in your EV for 12 hours going nowhere.

Safety forces can always bring you gasoline. Best vehicle to be in - IMO hybrid

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Have you seen those news clips of miles long traffic jams in Texas due to cold weather and impassable ice covered roads.
Imagine the range anxiety if you were sitting in your EV for 12 hours going nowhere.

Safety forces can always bring you gasoline. Best vehicle to be in - IMO hybrid

I remember just last year when blackouts were there, the ones who were free to roam around were people who had EV's and more so who had bi-directional EV's. IIRC, that time they also had shortage of gasoline in many places. Those people were really stuck for hours and hours and days

https://insideevs.com/news/536914/fuel- ... -searches/

pune wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Have you seen those news clips of miles long traffic jams in Texas due to cold weather and impassable ice covered roads.
Imagine the range anxiety if you were sitting in your EV for 12 hours going nowhere.

Safety forces can always bring you gasoline. Best vehicle to be in - IMO hybrid

I remember just last year when blackouts were there, the ones who were free to roam around were people who had EV's and more so who had bi-directional EV's. IIRC, that time they also had shortage of gasoline in many places. Those people were really stuck for hours and hours and days

https://insideevs.com/news/536914/fuel- ... -searches/

I live here. It was actually two years ago, February 2021, when we had the multi-day power grid failure.

There was very little reason to drive anywhere as everything was closed due to lack of electricity. Only hospitals and people lucky enough to be on the same segments of the grid remained powered throughout.

But sure, if you had a charged-up EV you could have roamed around until it was depleted. No different than if you had a gassed-up ICE vehicle. (There was no shortage of gasoline, but since gasoline pumps run on electricity it’s a moot point.)

I know of someone who had a Tesla battery backup system at their home. It lasted 12 hours, then they were stuck in sub-freezing temperatures like the rest of us.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Repeatedly I have read, rare earths are not rare. They just haven't been needed, and so a limited supply chain exists currently.

Despite their name, rare-earth elements are relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, more abundant than copper.

Because of their geochemical properties, rare-earth elements are typically dispersed and not often found concentrated in rare-earth minerals. Consequently, economically exploitable ore deposits are sparse (i.e. "rare").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element

There is a table in the link, most of these elements are millions times less rare than gold is.

Also I'm not sure I get the problem with nickel, often associated with cobalt. Cobalt is mined by children so that's obviously bad. But nickel is mined like other metals, is present in a number of countries, and of course widely used (stainless steel).

240 KW DC fast charging in India -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCRE-2qmu8

15-80% 10 minutes and things are only going to be better.

The price cuts in China dropped sales of competing EV's from Nio, Li Auto and Xpeng by as much as 60% in January. Tesla got a boost in sales for both February and March and they are production full.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqGFOvv6WPc

One thing hampering EVs IMO is a lot of people still live in places like apartments and condos and other dense residential complexes. Those places lack EV infrastructure like charging abilities, which would be a big turn off for people how don't have/can't afford a house where EV savings are truly realized. I live in an apartment and would've seriously considered EV when I bought my car in 2019 but chose ability (car camping, decent off-road capability), the fact that internal combustion infrastructure is more widespread, and not being able to charge at home because I don't want to have to hang out somewhere for over an hour to get a charge for my daily commute. I live in Denver and mass transit isn't an option considering the fastest option on Google maps is over an hour and a half and that includes a Lyft, the fastest all-transit option pushes 2 hours!

TWA772LR wrote:

One thing hampering EVs IMO is a lot of people still live in places like apartments and condos and other dense residential complexes. Those places lack EV infrastructure like charging abilities, which would be a big turn off for people how don't have/can't afford a house where EV savings are truly realized. I live in an apartment and would've seriously considered EV when I bought my car in 2019 but chose ability (car camping, decent off-road capability), the fact that internal combustion infrastructure is more widespread, and not being able to charge at home because I don't want to have to hang out somewhere for over an hour to get a charge for my daily commute. I live in Denver and mass transit isn't an option considering the fastest option on Google maps is over an hour and a half and that includes a Lyft, the fastest all-transit option pushes 2 hours!

Fully agree on that. There are solutions and there are companies who can make solutions. You need a mix of slow and fast chargers and number of chargers. Sharing a video of a place around 20 kms. from where I live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCRE-2qmu8

And this discussion actually talks of a court case happening in India on the same issue -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ii2Rn66LYE

It's in two parts.

What has happened is for quite a few people who made early investments into charging infrastructure haven't been able to recover while the latter like the one above would be able to recoup the investments, the reason being its faster, cheaper and can serve more vehicles. Even if they charge a bit of premium, eventually there will be more. This is probably also the thinking behind Tesla Superchargers and they opening that to the wider public although as Test pilots AFAIK in different countries.

I think it would need both changes in policy and implementation. I do know companies like Shell and few others who have been adding Chargers to their petrol pumps where it makes economic sense for them. This will only accelerate.

Governments need to pass laws and regulations preventing building owners, condo associations etc. from hampering the installation of electric chargers in parking garages. Yes there is a cost, there might be a need to bring some stuff up to standards (which should be done anyway) but saying "rules forbid you to have a charger in the garage" should simply be made illegal.

Aesma wrote:

Governments need to pass laws and regulations preventing building owners, condo associations etc. from hampering the installation of electric chargers in parking garages. Yes there is a cost, there might be a need to bring some stuff up to standards (which should be done anyway) but saying "rules forbid you to have a charger in the garage" should simply be made illegal.

True, I believe UK just got 3 pin plug as a standard building requirement just few years ago. One of the pins being for earthing and that is very much a safety feature. It's the same thing in India. Neither the Govt. takes any step nor does it want to.

To take a somewhat separate example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uphaar_Cinema_fire

The perpetrators were never bought to justice. And while regulations on paper became better, in reality not much has changed. Most public places like cinemas, Hospitals etc. don't have proper exits, proper labelling, lighting, fire fighting equipment the works. Some of it might be expensive, but a lot of it people don't care, pay attention or even if they do complain, it falls on deaf ears. I could cite numerous examples. For e.g. all firefighting equipment need to have mandatory inspection every 2 years. There is a paper that tells it when was the last inspection held. I have seen papers showing 5 years or whatnot. And these are multi-cinema halls, 3-4 cinemas running together.

Coming back to what you shared, it is the same thing. Sadly, both state and the Center don't really want to encourage alternatives. In my building, we wanted to get a solar panel but the bureaucracy is so much, people gave up. They ask all kinds of questions and many of them intrusive which have nothing to do with what we want to do.

How much we are against businesses can be seen in this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGyiEy0F8Zs

Our condo is moving ahead with electric charging for EVs. But we discovered that our electric service was already had the capacity for one charger per unit. Even with that, we will pay about 3.5 times what it would cost in a typical stand alone residence. High rise wiring is held to much higher standards than stand alone, and rightfully so.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Our condo is moving ahead with electric charging for EVs. But we discovered that our electric service was already had the capacity for one charger per unit. Even with that, we will pay about 3.5 times what it would cost in a typical stand alone residence. High rise wiring is held to much higher standards than stand alone, and rightfully so.

Agreed, but then that also raises the price of your condo/flat if I understand correctly the term (condo). While it is a cost, wouldn't it be amortised over years ??? I do not know nor claim to know but do know that in many western countries you can claim both depreciation as well as part of costs of utility. Also if there is bi-directional charging possible then could sell the excess to your utility provider but that is if you can do that and both policies as well as implementation allows that. I have come to know of few who take electricity when it's lowest and then sell part of it when it's at highest back to the utility provider. Having solar and batteries and whatnot just makes that much easier and better but then there is additional cost and complexity as in everything else.

Anecdotal evidence indicates that it will increase the value of the units. Unfortunately it is separate from our unit meter, so no fancy bi-directional possible.

Revelation wrote:

Aesma wrote:

There are already motors and batteries without (or with little) rare earth.

And as you just said hydrogen cars are also EVs, they need electric motors to work, they just produce their electricity from hydrogen in real time.

Hydrogen leaks because it's the smallest atom, and it's stored under pressure. Another challenge is because it's in a motor vehicle, it's hard to prevent any flexing or cracking in the storage vessels, pipes or connections.

I'm already pissed off that my printer ink cartridges let evaporation happen. I'm gonna be more pissed if my car's fuel slowly disappears, even more if it explodes after it leaves the car.

Toyota has prototype ICE hydrogen cars which are not EVs, BMW also built ICE engines powered by hydrogen, Toyota has even raced the Yaris GR with a 3 cylinder hydrogen engine.

Aesma wrote:

Governments need to pass laws and regulations preventing building owners, condo associations etc. from hampering the installation of electric chargers in parking garages. Yes there is a cost, there might be a need to bring some stuff up to standards (which should be done anyway) but saying "rules forbid you to have a charger in the garage" should simply be made illegal.

If there is a safety issue due to the antiquated electrical grid then there is a safety issue and that cannot be changed unless the infrastructure is updated, which for a building my size could easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Who's going to pay for that? The renters? Most of them are literally a pay cheque away from being on the street and they simply cannot sustain a major rent increase to cover those costs. Landlords and developers aren't going to pay for it, at least not if they can't recoup those costs.

The infrastructure in the building might not even be the problem, it might the public electrical infrastructure in the surrounding neighbourhood that needs to be upgraded. Who's going to pay for that? The taxpayer? The public is already maxed out with taxes upon taxes upon taxes.

Then it gets even more complicated, strata/condo bylaws are a City's jurisdiction, not the Provincial Government and not the Federal Government, so coming up with a policy that applies to all strata's, condos in a Province or in Canada as a whole, cannot be easily done - it has to be done on a city by city basis.

The other problem with mandates is that, I don't know if you've been paying attention over the last couple of years, but things tend to get a little violent when Governments start interfering with peoples lives, especially when those interferences are based on "science".

ACDC8 wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Governments need to pass laws and regulations preventing building owners, condo associations etc. from hampering the installation of electric chargers in parking garages. Yes there is a cost, there might be a need to bring some stuff up to standards (which should be done anyway) but saying "rules forbid you to have a charger in the garage" should simply be made illegal.

If there is a safety issue due to the antiquated electrical grid then there is a safety issue and that cannot be changed unless the infrastructure is updated, which for a building my size could easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Who's going to pay for that? The renters? Most of them are literally a pay cheque away from being on the street and they simply cannot sustain a major rent increase to cover those costs. Landlords and developers aren't going to pay for it, at least not if they can't recoup those costs.

The infrastructure in the building might not even be the problem, it might the public electrical infrastructure in the surrounding neighbourhood that needs to be upgraded. Who's going to pay for that? The taxpayer? The public is already maxed out with taxes upon taxes upon taxes.

Then it gets even more complicated, strata/condo bylaws are a City's jurisdiction, not the Provincial Government and not the Federal Government, so coming up with a policy that applies to all strata's, condos in a Province or in Canada as a whole, cannot be easily done - it has to be done on a city by city basis.

The other problem with mandates is that, I don't know if you've been paying attention over the last couple of years, but things tend to get a little violent when Governments start interfering with peoples lives, especially when those interferences are based on "science".

I at least was talking about new buildings. New buildings follow the code written in 1990s which was slightly updated in 2005. There is another one which was done in 2016 but neither the Governments nor the planners, designers keen to take the new stuff as they regard 'safety as being expensive' . That is why even our cars cannot pass the European crash tests but that's an entirely different discussion. This is more of an ideology rather than anything else.

https://www.bis.gov.in/standards/techni ... ding-code/

I come from software industry where it is understood that if you don't fix code you are just delaying and making problems more. I can share many github projects or bugs which revolve around this issue and make products harder to use over time. This forum itself is a good example fo that. (Talking about the forum software from a software engineering perspective.) If the work would have been upstreamed then we would have got that all goodiness and have a more 'agile' and 21st century interface.

And if people are serious, then raising funds are not an issue. Governments have number of ways to reach out and do stuff, the question is rather one of transparency and making sure things are on time-table.

Kiwirob wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Aesma wrote:

There are already motors and batteries without (or with little) rare earth.

And as you just said hydrogen cars are also EVs, they need electric motors to work, they just produce their electricity from hydrogen in real time.

Hydrogen leaks because it's the smallest atom, and it's stored under pressure. Another challenge is because it's in a motor vehicle, it's hard to prevent any flexing or cracking in the storage vessels, pipes or connections.

I'm already pissed off that my printer ink cartridges let evaporation happen. I'm gonna be more pissed if my car's fuel slowly disappears, even more if it explodes after it leaves the car.

Toyota has prototype ICE hydrogen cars which are not EVs, BMW also built ICE engines powered by hydrogen, Toyota has even raced the Yaris GR with a 3 cylinder hydrogen engine.

Yeah and the efficiency of burning hydrogen in an ICE like that is horrendous.

ACDC8 wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Governments need to pass laws and regulations preventing building owners, condo associations etc. from hampering the installation of electric chargers in parking garages. Yes there is a cost, there might be a need to bring some stuff up to standards (which should be done anyway) but saying "rules forbid you to have a charger in the garage" should simply be made illegal.

If there is a safety issue due to the antiquated electrical grid then there is a safety issue and that cannot be changed unless the infrastructure is updated, which for a building my size could easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Who's going to pay for that? The renters? Most of them are literally a pay cheque away from being on the street and they simply cannot sustain a major rent increase to cover those costs. Landlords and developers aren't going to pay for it, at least not if they can't recoup those costs.

The infrastructure in the building might not even be the problem, it might the public electrical infrastructure in the surrounding neighbourhood that needs to be upgraded. Who's going to pay for that? The taxpayer? The public is already maxed out with taxes upon taxes upon taxes.

Then it gets even more complicated, strata/condo bylaws are a City's jurisdiction, not the Provincial Government and not the Federal Government, so coming up with a policy that applies to all strata's, condos in a Province or in Canada as a whole, cannot be easily done - it has to be done on a city by city basis.

The other problem with mandates is that, I don't know if you've been paying attention over the last couple of years, but things tend to get a little violent when Governments start interfering with peoples lives, especially when those interferences are based on "science".

As I said if the grid is antiquated that's already a reason to upgrade it. You finance it like other infrastructure, everyone at every level chips in. And science deniers can't argue about that.

QF7 wrote:

pune wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Have you seen those news clips of miles long traffic jams in Texas due to cold weather and impassable ice covered roads.
Imagine the range anxiety if you were sitting in your EV for 12 hours going nowhere.

Safety forces can always bring you gasoline. Best vehicle to be in - IMO hybrid

I remember just last year when blackouts were there, the ones who were free to roam around were people who had EV's and more so who had bi-directional EV's. IIRC, that time they also had shortage of gasoline in many places. Those people were really stuck for hours and hours and days

https://insideevs.com/news/536914/fuel- ... -searches/

I live here. It was actually two years ago, February 2021, when we had the multi-day power grid failure.

There was very little reason to drive anywhere as everything was closed due to lack of electricity. Only hospitals and people lucky enough to be on the same segments of the grid remained powered throughout.

But sure, if you had a charged-up EV you could have roamed around until it was depleted. No different than if you had a gassed-up ICE vehicle. (There was no shortage of gasoline, but since gasoline pumps run on electricity it’s a moot point.)

I know of someone who had a Tesla battery backup system at their home. It lasted 12 hours, then they were stuck in sub-freezing temperatures like the rest of us.

We also lived through the great snowmageddon of 2021. I always keep the vehicles above 75% full, and will fill everything (including a few gas cans for the generator) before a weather event.

Since we have gas heat and appliances, and a real, wood burning fireplace, we were able to keep at least a few rooms in the house a reasonable temperature. I feel for the people building new homes without gas and real fireplaces.

The infrastructure is no where near ready to support a transition to electric everything.

We just ordered a full size SUV with a wonderful 6.2L V8 engine, I fully intend to drive it until I can no longer buy gasoline.

AABusDrvr wrote:

QF7 wrote:

pune wrote:

I remember just last year when blackouts were there, the ones who were free to roam around were people who had EV's and more so who had bi-directional EV's. IIRC, that time they also had shortage of gasoline in many places. Those people were really stuck for hours and hours and days

https://insideevs.com/news/536914/fuel- ... -searches/

I live here. It was actually two years ago, February 2021, when we had the multi-day power grid failure.

There was very little reason to drive anywhere as everything was closed due to lack of electricity. Only hospitals and people lucky enough to be on the same segments of the grid remained powered throughout.

But sure, if you had a charged-up EV you could have roamed around until it was depleted. No different than if you had a gassed-up ICE vehicle. (There was no shortage of gasoline, but since gasoline pumps run on electricity it’s a moot point.)

I know of someone who had a Tesla battery backup system at their home. It lasted 12 hours, then they were stuck in sub-freezing temperatures like the rest of us.

We also lived through the great snowmageddon of 2021. I always keep the vehicles above 75% full, and will fill everything (including a few gas cans for the generator) before a weather event.

Since we have gas heat and appliances, and a real, wood burning fireplace, we were able to keep at least a few rooms in the house a reasonable temperature. I feel for the people building new homes without gas and real fireplaces.

The infrastructure is no where near ready to support a transition to electric everything.

We just ordered a full size SUV with a wonderful 6.2L V8 engine, I fully intend to drive it until I can no longer buy gasoline.

That is your choice. Just don't say was not told, we all suffer consequences of our choices.

In other news, Jim Farley CEO has shared they need to work more to reduce weight of car. Most other CEO's are not as forthcoming, exception was VW CEO who was removed last October.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zjiMC2GT1M

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/04/busi ... index.html

So while it's easy for lot of people say X is Tesla-killer, harder to prove.

Erstwhile VW Boss, Herbert Deiss who pointed similar issues and was booted out. Probably Jim Farley will get the same boot

VW says China is their most important market, not Germany -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UInhyda6c9Y

https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/02/vol ... nt-market/