pune wrote:

AABusDrvr wrote:

QF7 wrote:

I live here. It was actually two years ago, February 2021, when we had the multi-day power grid failure.

There was very little reason to drive anywhere as everything was closed due to lack of electricity. Only hospitals and people lucky enough to be on the same segments of the grid remained powered throughout.

But sure, if you had a charged-up EV you could have roamed around until it was depleted. No different than if you had a gassed-up ICE vehicle. (There was no shortage of gasoline, but since gasoline pumps run on electricity it’s a moot point.)

I know of someone who had a Tesla battery backup system at their home. It lasted 12 hours, then they were stuck in sub-freezing temperatures like the rest of us.

We also lived through the great snowmageddon of 2021. I always keep the vehicles above 75% full, and will fill everything (including a few gas cans for the generator) before a weather event.

Since we have gas heat and appliances, and a real, wood burning fireplace, we were able to keep at least a few rooms in the house a reasonable temperature. I feel for the people building new homes without gas and real fireplaces.

The infrastructure is no where near ready to support a transition to electric everything.

We just ordered a full size SUV with a wonderful 6.2L V8 engine, I fully intend to drive it until I can no longer buy gasoline.

That is your choice. Just don't say was not told, we all suffer consequences of our choices.

In other news, Jim Farley CEO has shared they need to work more to reduce weight of car. Most other CEO's are not as forthcoming, exception was VW CEO who was removed last October.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zjiMC2GT1M

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/04/busi ... index.html

So while it's easy for lot of people say X is Tesla-killer, harder to prove.

Erstwhile VW Boss, Herbert Deiss who pointed similar issues and was booted out. Probably Jim Farley will get the same boot

The consequence of my choice will be enjoying a vehicle much more capable than any EV sold here today. I will indeed enjoy that.

Per the article you posted, 90% of Europe is still buying ICE powered cars, and here in the US, it's closer to 94% of vehicles sold are ICE. The death of the ICE powered vehicle is still a long way off.

Aesma wrote:

As I said if the grid is antiquated that's already a reason to upgrade it.

No, it's not. If it's fulfilling the purpose it was designed for, then it doesn't need to be replaced. It gets replaced if its failing what it was designed for or if there is a need to upgrade it for newer purposes, that need isn't here yet.

Aesma wrote:

You finance it like other infrastructure, everyone at every level chips in.

We're struggling to pay for the infrastructure as is and the honey pot is only so deep. If you want an EV, then its up to you to find a place that supports charging at home, and if one here can afford an EV, then one can afford a newer condo with on site charging. If not, then you need to adapt your lifestyle to your vehicular choice just like everyone else.

Aesma wrote:

And science deniers can't argue about that.

They can, they will and if they get elected, they can reverse policies put in place by current Governments, whether it be at a Federal, Provincial or Municipal level.

pune wrote:

VW says China is their most important market, not Germany -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UInhyda6c9Y

https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/02/vol ... nt-market/

LOL, China has been not only VW's but other German manufacturer's most important market going on 2 decades now.

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

VW says China is their most important market, not Germany -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UInhyda6c9Y

https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/02/vol ... nt-market/

LOL, China has been not only VW's but other German manufacturer's most important market going on 2 decades now.

And that is precisely the point. Then those Auto manufacturers have to work out how to go electric as the market in China is more and more pro-electric. The policies are designed around EV's.

Very interesting take on how China is doing stuff vis-a-vis the Americans and the need for the U.S. to play catch-up. Right now doesn't seem they can do -

https://www.grid.news/story/global/2023 ... ar-behind/

I do not have a source at the moment, but our condo committee on EV charging was told that condos have/will have an obligation to enable charging. Those wanting it will need to pay the costs. There are companies out their who specialize in installing and financing building charging systems. Our committee has engaged one of them, but has recommended the condo association assist in the financing. We believe enough people will sign up in the beginning to pay at least 50% of costs for the infrastructure. Early 'signers up' will pay less than those who signup later, and almost cover the costs of the initial cost of infrastructure. Because of uncertainty the company charges almost twice as much as its costs, and maintains some ownership in that infrastructure. By handling the financing we own the infrastructure from the beginning. The actual charging apparatus for each unit is an additional cost and another company who also will handle the metering and billing of electricity used. Like I said, doing things in a highrise is complicated and expensive.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I do not have a source at the moment, but our condo committee on EV charging was told that condos have/will have an obligation to enable charging. Those wanting it will need to pay the costs. There are companies out their who specialize in installing and financing building charging systems. Our committee has engaged one of them, but has recommended the condo association assist in the financing. We believe enough people will sign up in the beginning to pay at least 50% of costs for the infrastructure. Early 'signers up' will pay less than those who signup later, and almost cover the costs of the initial cost of infrastructure. Because of uncertainty the company charges almost twice as much as its costs, and maintains some ownership in that infrastructure. By handling the financing we own the infrastructure from the beginning. The actual charging apparatus for each unit is an additional cost and another company who also will handle the metering and billing of electricity used. Like I said, doing things in a highrise is complicated and expensive.

Beyond that, it is a way for those in the middle to make money. Hopefully your association has choice of companies and can feel them out, see how much and how many installations they have done, when they have done, kind of experience the unit holders have, etc. etc. before you pay your hard-earned money to them. Maybe some of your co-owners in the society can take turns and figure things out, at the end of the day, it is your and your Neighbors money, would suggest to investigate a bit before handing things over. Also be aware of what is agreed upon, they may put up any nonsense stuff in it.

The company is very straight forward about the costs. They come well recommended, and are happy to function strictly as electrical contractor, and bring power to all of our parking spaces. They informed us what companies install charging apparatus and provide metering and billing. We choose one, there are only two or three companies with that technology available. In a large building with an electric rooms where all the individual meters are, it is not practical, there is not room, and it likely might not meet code to extend individual lines from each meter to the various parking spots.

My son added a Level 2 charging station to his driveway. Simple. Electrician added a 40 amp breaker in this 200 amp service panel, ran an appropriate Romex type wire 30 feet to the driveway. Total cost less than a couple thousand. Highrise: lines hundreds of feet long, all in conduit, codes for highrise are much more complex and have safety requirements far beyond a single resident house. High rises need a separate metering system for all of those chargers. Nothing comes cheap.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

The company is very straight forward about the costs. They come well recommended, and are happy to function strictly as electrical contractor, and bring power to all of our parking spaces. They informed us what companies install charging apparatus and provide metering and billing. We choose one, there are only two or three companies with that technology available. In a large building with an electric rooms where all the individual meters are, it is not practical, there is not room, and it likely might not meet code to extend individual lines from each meter to the various parking spots.

My son added a Level 2 charging station to his driveway. Simple. Electrician added a 40 amp breaker in this 200 amp service panel, ran an appropriate Romex type wire 30 feet to the driveway. Total cost less than a couple thousand. Highrise: lines hundreds of feet long, all in conduit, codes for highrise are much more complex and have safety requirements far beyond a single resident house. High rises need a separate metering system for all of those chargers. Nothing comes cheap.

Thanks, I have or had worked in structured cabling so yeah know that costs can go up, it's not just electrical but also safety issues involved as well as labelling so yeah costs can and do add up. As far as you are happy and can see some of their earlier work and are satisfied with that, can go ahead. Big point being they are straightforward, that is plus for them and you. Hopefully, it's same in legal papers as well.

pune wrote:

And that is precisely the point. Then those Auto manufacturers have to work out how to go electric as the market in China is more and more pro-electric. The policies are designed around EV's.

They already have.

pune wrote:

Very interesting take on how China is doing stuff vis-a-vis the Americans and the need for the U.S. to play catch-up. Right now doesn't seem they can do -

https://www.grid.news/story/global/2023 ... ar-behind/

China can do whatever the hell they want just as the US can and contrary to the propaganda, the US will manage just fine without playing "catch up".

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

Very interesting take on how China is doing stuff vis-a-vis the Americans and the need for the U.S. to play catch-up. Right now doesn't seem they can do -

https://www.grid.news/story/global/2023 ... ar-behind/

China can do whatever the hell they want just as the US can and contrary to the propaganda, the US will manage just fine without playing "catch up".

These threads are worth their weight in gold in entertainment value.

China has been trying to “catch up” with the US and Western Europe since the 1970s. In some respects they’ve done very well such as inter-city rail. But in many areas they’re still lagging and don’t forget that much of their progress has been thanks to stealing or coercing intellectual property from the West. Name anything in the science or technology arena that has been invented in China.

As to the market share of EVs vs. ICE and what that “proves” or doesn’t. Remember that the US invented the automotive industry - with all due respect to some pioneers in Europe - and certainly the country was exemplary in terms of making automobiles a mass market product. Even today many countries don’t come close in terms of a network of roads and highways, supported by a nearly ubiquitous presence of fueling stations.

All of this happened because it made economic sense and companies and investors could make money at it.

In that regard, nothing has changed!

Just because a new (or new-ish) means of propulsion is available doesn’t mean the manufacturers and fuel providers of the “old” technology vehicles are doomed to go bankrupt. As others have noted, there is still a huge amount of money to be made from supporting ICE vehicles and smart CEOs will position their companies to get a share of that money. And as the market evolves so will the companies. No opinions spouted by talking heads on YouTube are going to change that.

Keep in mind that Chinese scientists are frequently named in research papers. Their scientists play an important part of modern research - all branches of science. I am not sure that much impresses Xi, who seems to be a great companion to Putin.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Keep in mind that Chinese scientists are frequently named in research papers. Their scientists play an important part of modern research - all branches of science. I am not sure that much impresses Xi, who seems to be a great companion to Putin.

Well, sure.

Send your bright students to Harvard, MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, Sorbonne, etc, and of course they will participate in research papers. No surprise there.

The question is, what original and revolutionary advances have come out of China?

(Don’t get me wrong, I think they are or will be capable of it, I’m just not aware if it’s happened yet.)

QF7 wrote:

All of this happened because it made economic sense and companies and investors could make money at it.

In that regard, nothing has changed!

Just because a new (or new-ish) means of propulsion is available doesn’t mean the manufacturers and fuel providers of the “old” technology vehicles are doomed to go bankrupt. As others have noted, there is still a huge amount of money to be made from supporting ICE vehicles and smart CEOs will position their companies to get a share of that money. And as the market evolves so will the companies. No opinions spouted by talking heads on YouTube are going to change that.

Nothing changes, as long as you ignore global warming.

Might be wise to at least start down the path of Plan B instead of sticking with Big Oil till our last breath.

I'm not ignoring global warming, quite the contrary, I've been very mindful of what I do and what I can contribute to for years. Maybe some here will call me "pooper of the paty" but I'll give it a try anyway. Has anyone thought about what happens to all the EV's batteries? Is that our next concern? I think so. And there is also the question: what produces the most greenhouse gases? Yes, animal husbandry produces more harmful emissions than the entire transport sector, i.e. all motorcycles, cars, ships and airplanes combined.!!! Anyone can help save our planet, you just have to want to, and EVs are not the answer

source in german only:
https://www.peta.de/themen/klimawandel/

I'm not ignoring global warming, quite the contrary, I've been very mindful of what I do and what I can contribute to for years. Maybe some here will call me "pooper of the paty" but I'll give it a try anyway. Has anyone thought about what happens to all the EV's batteries? Is that our next concern? I think so. And there is also the question: what produces the most greenhouse gases? Yes, animal husbandry produces more harmful emissions than the entire transport sector, i.e. all motorcycles, cars, ships and airplanes combined.!!! Anyone can help save our planet, you just have to want to, and EVs are not the answer

source in german only:
https://www.peta.de/themen/klimawandel/

oldJoe wrote:

I'm not ignoring global warming, quite the contrary, I've been very mindful of what I do and what I can contribute to for years. Maybe some here will call me "pooper of the paty" but I'll give it a try anyway. Has anyone thought about what happens to all the EV's batteries? Is that our next concern? I think so. And there is also the question: what produces the most greenhouse gases? Yes, animal husbandry produces more harmful emissions than the entire transport sector, i.e. all motorcycles, cars, ships and airplanes combined.!!! Anyone can help save our planet, you just have to want to, and EVs are not the answer

source in german only:
https://www.peta.de/themen/klimawandel/

There is only one silver bullet and that is to decimate the human population. Since we don’t want to do that or implement global birth limitations we need a plethora of answers.And EV’s are definitely one of them. Recycling of batteries is already a solved problem. The newest batteries are 95-99% recyclable and don’t have rare earth metals.
We would definitely need to change the way produce meat and again there are a plethora of solutions and ideas to solve it.
To turn back to the topic; I have owned multiple EV’s and I can understand they are not for everyone yet. But even at current status they work for 95% of the use cases when the charging infrastructure is on required level. I did many roadtrips, ICE and EV, the difference of travel time equates to 5-10% tops. Negligible in the bigger scheme of things.

Only problem I see with EV’s is price, they are still a bit to expensive in the lower classes to make the general public switch.
Not a problem in the higher classes; the price difference between an S klasse and EQS is negligible in most markets. Same for the 4-series and i4 or Q8 and Q8 Etron…

A few items,

10 years ago our family( me and 4 brothers and spouses had 3 Lexus, 3 BMW and a Mercedes). Now all converted to Tesla all w at home chargers.

My zip code in California is 92130 was once ruled by bmw, Audi, Mercedes and Lexus but is now Tesla ruled. Every morning on the way to the freeway I count % of cars that are Tesla and is now approaching 20%.

None of us have needed service.

My wife’s model y would have blown away my M6

My zip code Miroslav what is going across California and as any well informed observer knows when it comes to cars what happens in California matters.

So the 10% adoption rate means we have entered the steep part of an S curve means that we will be at 35-50% in the next 4-5 years.

Meaning resale prices on ice bought now will plummet.

I’d look for gm, Honda, Nissan, and possibly vw and Toyota to enter bankruptcy.

Tesla will be largest automaker in 5 years

Planeflyer wrote:

A few items,

10 years ago our family( me and 4 brothers and spouses had 3 Lexus, 3 BMW and a Mercedes). Now all converted to Tesla all w at home chargers.

My zip code in California is 92130 was once ruled by bmw, Audi, Mercedes and Lexus but is now Tesla ruled. Every morning on the way to the freeway I count % of cars that are Tesla and is now approaching 20%.

None of us have needed service.

My wife’s model y would have blown away my M6

My zip code Miroslav what is going across California and as any well informed observer knows when it comes to cars what happens in California matters.

So the 10% adoption rate means we have entered the steep part of an S curve means that we will be at 35-50% in the next 4-5 years.

Vehicle and EV trends are very regional and what may be happening where you live, doesn't reflect the same trend elsewhere in the country. Where I live in Vancouver, EV sales are the highest in the Country, and most have been Teslas and you see them all over the place - over the last year or so, you've been seeing a lot more Porsche Taycans, Audi Etrons, VW ID4s, Ford Mach Es and Nissan Leafs.

Now, if I drive 100km down the highway into the Valley, EVs are almost non-existent. If I drive a further 300km to where I grew up, you'll be lucky to see one or two a week.

Planeflyer wrote:

Meaning resale prices on ice bought now will plummet.

Not for a very long time. Most Government ZEV mandates don't kick in until 2030-2035 and those only apply to new vehicles. Given that there are billions of cars on the road as is, the used market and demand for ICE will be around for sometime after that.

Planeflyer wrote:

I’d look for gm, Honda, Nissan, and possibly vw and Toyota to enter bankruptcy.

I wouldn't. Especially VAG - they've already kicked electrification of their products into high gear and with 3 major nameplates under their belt, they've got the consumer base that Tesla and other new starts can only dream of.

Planeflyer wrote:

Tesla will be largest automaker in 5 years

Not by a long shot, especially seeing that Tesla's sales are already declining. Tesla has peaked, they've had phenomenal success because they had a product that no one else had, but now that more traditional auto makers are making comparable EVs in performance with the added refinement and nameplate that people want, Tesla's share of the market will continue to decline. Tesla's biggest issue is that they are a tech company, not a car company - and their product is testament to that. Its easy for a car company to adapt to new tech and put it in their cars than it is for a tech company to design tech and try to compete with companies that have over a century of building cars.

Now, having said that - given the current state of the automotive industry with supply and inventory constraints - there will be a lot of fluctuations over the next few years with sales linked to a particular brand, but that doesn't reflect consumer trends.

pune wrote:

And this was without the sub-20k car that would be announced by Musk on Investor Day 1st March 2023. That will drive nails in many a company.

Musk has a tendency to announce a lot of things, usually followed by a lot of empty promises, disappointment and corporate meltdowns. The man is visionary, I'll give him that, but beyond that, he needs to step back and let others take the helm.

OP--How is India doing on EVs?

johns624 wrote:

OP--How is India doing on EVs?

Not OP, but around 1.8% of sales, largely constricted by supply, which now seems to be increasing with BYD joining Tata and MG.

In Australia, again constricted by supply and model choice, EV sales are now higher than ICE with manual transmissions. Tesla Model 3 was the third largest selling “car” - the top two were twin cab utes (pickups)

QF7 wrote:

These threads are worth their weight in gold in entertainment value.

China has been trying to “catch up” with the US and Western Europe since the 1970s. In some respects they’ve done very well such as inter-city rail. But in many areas they’re still lagging and don’t forget that much of their progress has been thanks to stealing or coercing intellectual property from the West. Name anything in the science or technology arena that has been invented in China.

As to the market share of EVs vs. ICE and what that “proves” or doesn’t. Remember that the US invented the automotive industry - with all due respect to some pioneers in Europe - and certainly the country was exemplary in terms of making automobiles a mass market product. Even today many countries don’t come close in terms of a network of roads and highways, supported by a nearly ubiquitous presence of fueling stations.

All of this happened because it made economic sense and companies and investors could make money at it.

In that regard, nothing has changed!

Just because a new (or new-ish) means of propulsion is available doesn’t mean the manufacturers and fuel providers of the “old” technology vehicles are doomed to go bankrupt. As others have noted, there is still a huge amount of money to be made from supporting ICE vehicles and smart CEOs will position their companies to get a share of that money. And as the market evolves so will the companies. No opinions spouted by talking heads on YouTube are going to change that.

The funny thing about these threads is that the EV evangelists keep posting things like Toyota shifting away from Hybrids and claiming its because they were wrong about hybrids and all that non-sense, they don't really understand the industry. Toyota has been doing hybrids for a long time, long before any environmental mandates were put in place, now that Governments have put those mandates in place, Toyota with their hybrids will meet and exceed those standards for the next decade plus, so now, they can shift their attention to the next phase of emissions controls. And the irony is that some of these "zero emission" mandates coming into place in various countries around the world, include plug-in hybrids, so manufacturers can continue to produce and sell new ICE vehicles as long as they have the ability to operate within a capacity, without the use of the ICE.

And that's the thing, people like the OP are expecting that this has to happen overnight and if a manufacturer doesn't comply within the next 24 hours then that'll be a "nail in their coffin" but the reality is that it won't work like that, its an evolution, not a revolution, and evolution takes time. The economy, as it always has and always will be, will be the driving force behind if the mandates will or will not be met.

To those that doubt Tesla which is essentially a substitute for Ev’s( I say this as all other ev’s are essentially impractical w/o a home charger set up)

Name a market that’s was disrupted where the leaders prior to disruption remained on top?

California has been a leading indicator of vehicle trends since the 20’s. Model y is now tge number selling vehicle in California.

Tesla may miss timetables but not specs . a lot of smart people including leaders like Mercedes said the semi was impossible

And for those who think Tesla has peaked they have done what they have done w 4 high or super high end vehicles

Sure there is risk that cybervtruck and lower model won’t pan out but I’ll take my chances over any of the others including The leaders all of whom are losing money on their evs. Toyota is sticking w hybrids and vw is backtracking because they don’t know how to make money on evs.

Planeflyer wrote:

Sure there is risk that cybervtruck and lower model won’t pan out but I’ll take my chances over any of the others including The leaders all of whom are losing money on their evs. Toyota is sticking w hybrids and vw is backtracking because they don’t know how to make money on evs.

Toyota was smart - they have a huge line up of vehicles that are affordable, profitable and that meet ZEV mandates and appeal to consumers, with emission control mandates met for the next decade, they can now focus on the next phase of ZEVs.

VW has not backtracked on anything, they have committed to electrifying their vehicles with the launch of no less than 10 new models in the next 3 years. Along with a very strong loyalty base - a consistent line up of new and refreshed models actually hitting showroom floors will give companies like VW a strong advantage as the EV market is no longer a niche market dominated by one player.

In the few years that VW has offered ID products, they already have 5 different models to choose from, including a small hatchback, SUV, sedan and van. Tesla still only has 4, 2 sedans and 2 CUVs and while Musk continues to tweet his promises of new models, consumers will be at other manufacturer showrooms test driving a physical product.

Now, just to clarify - I'm not arguing that Tesla will go away, I'm just simply saying that they will no longer be the dominant player as more and more competition comes along.

Planeflyer wrote:

Name a market that’s was disrupted where the leaders prior to disruption remained on top?

Sorry, I can't make any sense out of this comment.

Planeflyer wrote:

California has been a leading indicator of vehicle trends since the 20’s. Model y is now tge number selling vehicle in California.

How many other markets are seeing the Y as the number one seller? Here in Canada, Tesla didn't even crack the top 10 manufacturer let alone one specific model. Strictly on EV sales alone, Tesla does sell the most EVs in Canada, but its not the Model Y, its the Model 3.

Planeflyer wrote:

Tesla may miss timetables but not specs . a lot of smart people including leaders like Mercedes said the semi was impossible

Specs are great, but consumers want more choice.

Planeflyer wrote:

And for those who think Tesla has peaked they have done what they have done w 4 high or super high end vehicles

What have they done?

Other companies like Ford and GM, their pick-up trucks are their bread and butter - and until a useable and comparable work EV comes along, that won't be changing anytime soon.

Kent350787 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

OP--How is India doing on EVs?

Not OP, but around 1.8% of sales, largely constricted by supply, which now seems to be increasing with BYD joining Tata and MG.

In Australia, again constricted by supply and model choice, EV sales are now higher than ICE with manual transmissions. Tesla Model 3 was the third largest selling “car” - the top two were twin cab utes (pickups)

My neighbor just bought an MG couple of days back. I'm looking forward to micro cars, don't need big SUV, a small micro car will do fine for me, thank you.

Concur with my friend, we are restricted by supply. Most of these guys have huge back-orders, just unable to fulfill.

And Govt. has actually made more taxes on foreign cars in this budget as they want Tatas to survive. Tatas has that white elephant called Jaguar.

https://www.businessinsider.in/tata-mot ... 452087.cms

ACDC8 wrote:

QF7 wrote:

These threads are worth their weight in gold in entertainment value.

China has been trying to “catch up” with the US and Western Europe since the 1970s. In some respects they’ve done very well such as inter-city rail. But in many areas they’re still lagging and don’t forget that much of their progress has been thanks to stealing or coercing intellectual property from the West. Name anything in the science or technology arena that has been invented in China.

As to the market share of EVs vs. ICE and what that “proves” or doesn’t. Remember that the US invented the automotive industry - with all due respect to some pioneers in Europe - and certainly the country was exemplary in terms of making automobiles a mass market product. Even today many countries don’t come close in terms of a network of roads and highways, supported by a nearly ubiquitous presence of fueling stations.

All of this happened because it made economic sense and companies and investors could make money at it.

In that regard, nothing has changed!

Just because a new (or new-ish) means of propulsion is available doesn’t mean the manufacturers and fuel providers of the “old” technology vehicles are doomed to go bankrupt. As others have noted, there is still a huge amount of money to be made from supporting ICE vehicles and smart CEOs will position their companies to get a share of that money. And as the market evolves so will the companies. No opinions spouted by talking heads on YouTube are going to change that.

The funny thing about these threads is that the EV evangelists keep posting things like Toyota shifting away from Hybrids and claiming its because they were wrong about hybrids and all that non-sense, they don't really understand the industry. Toyota has been doing hybrids for a long time, long before any environmental mandates were put in place, now that Governments have put those mandates in place, Toyota with their hybrids will meet and exceed those standards for the next decade plus, so now, they can shift their attention to the next phase of emissions controls. And the irony is that some of these "zero emission" mandates coming into place in various countries around the world, include plug-in hybrids, so manufacturers can continue to produce and sell new ICE vehicles as long as they have the ability to operate within a capacity, without the use of the ICE.

And that's the thing, people like the OP are expecting that this has to happen overnight and if a manufacturer doesn't comply within the next 24 hours then that'll be a "nail in their coffin" but the reality is that it won't work like that, its an evolution, not a revolution, and evolution takes time. The economy, as it always has and always will be, will be the driving force behind if the mandates will or will not be met.

For all the funnies, Toyota and all other automakers keep on buying carbon credits from Tesla, isn't that funny

https://carboncredits.com/tesla-regulat ... jumps-116/

When the regulations are 170 grams and they are producing cars which have higher pollution emissions then they are not meeting regulations, period. What they are trying to do is lobby and ask Governments to change them. They tried the same trick in UK and elsewhere.

https://english.alarabiya.net/business/ ... ring-in-UK

So much for 'respecting the norms'

I am sure now you will say because they are a business, they should be given a hard pass, right ???

pune wrote:

When the regulations are 170 grams and they are producing cars which have higher pollution emissions then they are not meeting regulations, period. What they are trying to do is lobby and ask Governments to change them. They tried the same trick in UK and elsewhere.

https://english.alarabiya.net/business/ ... ring-in-UK

So much for 'respecting the norms'

I am sure now you will say because they are a business, they should be given a hard pass, right ???

You assume too much - so, again, my opinion is irrelevant - this is a decision that solely lies in the hands of the UK Government and the manufacturer. If the Government says no more hybrids after a certain date, a manufacturer has every right to pull their production out of that country and the economic consequences lie solely on the Government and this is why many of these mandates will not be met - economics.

Now, you can point your fingers at Toyota or VW or whomever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that going from selling tens of millions of new ICE vehicles every year , never mind the billions of ICE vehicles already on the roads today, to 100% EV and only EV (remember, you don't like hydrogen or any other form of alternative energy sources) in an extremely short period of time is simply not going to happen - that's just reality.

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

When the regulations are 170 grams and they are producing cars which have higher pollution emissions then they are not meeting regulations, period. What they are trying to do is lobby and ask Governments to change them. They tried the same trick in UK and elsewhere.

https://english.alarabiya.net/business/ ... ring-in-UK

So much for 'respecting the norms'

I am sure now you will say because they are a business, they should be given a hard pass, right ???

You assume too much - so, again, my opinion is irrelevant - this is a decision that solely lies in the hands of the UK Government and the manufacturer. If the Government says no more hybrids after a certain date, a manufacturer has every right to pull their production out of that country and the economic consequences lie solely on the Government and this is why many of these mandates will not be met - economics.

Now, you can point your fingers at Toyota or VW or whomever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that going from selling tens of millions of new ICE vehicles every year , never mind the billions of ICE vehicles already on the roads today, to 100% EV and only EV (remember, you don't like hydrogen or any other form of alternative energy sources) in an extremely short period of time is simply not going to happen - that's just reality.

I agree to the point that it will take time but not as much as you think. That is the reason why even Honda dealers and probably most of the ICE dealerships are into conundrums because the vehicles they are getting they cannot sell. An example of what I mean -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYEosY0wsxY

pune wrote:

I agree to the point that it will take time but not as much as you think. That is the reason why even Honda dealers and probably most of the ICE dealerships are into conundrums because the vehicles they are getting they cannot sell. An example of what I mean -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYEosY0wsxY

They can't sell what they don't have. New car inventory here in Canada is non existent because they sell. For example, last week in my area, there were 13 GTIs for sale, today there only 3 - many of those GTIs are also missing certain features such as the HK Sound System (for which VW is crediting the consumer). The wait list for the R is over 2 years, the Civic R is impossible to get as is the Corolla GR. My ordered GTI has no ETA on delivery and may or may not come with the HK system - even if I decided to cancel my order, any new car would be met with similar wait times.

Love the email in the video though - got a good laugh out of that one, regardless cars being sold without certain features or manufacturers wanting to drop the dealership system has nothing to do with EVs.

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

I agree to the point that it will take time but not as much as you think. That is the reason why even Honda dealers and probably most of the ICE dealerships are into conundrums because the vehicles they are getting they cannot sell. An example of what I mean -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYEosY0wsxY

They can't sell what they don't have. New car inventory here in Canada is non existent because they sell. For example, last week in my area, there were 13 GTIs for sale, today there only 3 - many of those GTIs are also missing certain features such as the HK Sound System (for which VW is crediting the consumer). The wait list for the R is over 2 years, the Civic R is impossible to get as is the Corolla GR. My ordered GTI has no ETA on delivery and may or may not come with the HK system - even if I decided to cancel my order, any new car would be met with similar wait times.

Love the email in the video though - got a good laugh out of that one, regardless cars being sold without certain features or manufacturers wanting to drop the dealership system has nothing to do with EVs.

Umm.... That last being because Tesla started becoming direct and cutting out the middleman. They will be there but only for service. AFAIK, they have pioneered the direct selling idea and now other manufacturers have to go the same way otherwise they lose business. And the other point is valid too, as only two manufacturers I know who are fully vertically integrated, BYD and Tesla, more so BYD. So you won't find that sort of thing happening with them.

pune wrote:

Umm.... That last being because Tesla started becoming direct and cutting out the middleman. They will be there but only for service. AFAIK, they have pioneered the direct selling idea and now other manufacturers have to go the same way otherwise they lose business. And the other point is valid too, as only two manufacturers I know who are fully vertically integrated, BYD and Tesla, more so BYD. So you won't find that sort of thing happening with them.

Actually no, they didn't pioneer that - they just resurrected an old idea back to life. And I will give Tesla credit and applause for that. Having said that, Tesla still has showrooms and sales advisors for potential customers, which also is not uncommon in some parts outside of North America. My two Passats in Germany for example, I went to a dealership, configured the car, secured a deposit, ordered the car and a few months later, went to Wolfsburg to pick it up from the manufacturer - really no different than the Tesla experience. I could go the the Tesla showroom across town tomorrow, talk to a sales advisor, configure a car, give them $250 and they call me when my car gets there where the rest of the necessary paperwork is done.

And as much as I love VW, I will 100% fully admit that VW Canada and VW America is really dropping the ball on this front.

But glad you admitted that your clip has nothing to do with EV vs ICE, therefore irrelevant to the topic.

Historically speaking Papermaking, Gunpowder, Compass and Printing all of these are Chinese inventions. Also known as Four Great Inventions by the Chinese -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Great_Inventions

In modern times, the inventions on HSR, E-commerce, Alipay etc. are far ahead of Western markets. India has been copying all of them except HSR due to monetary constraints as well as unavailability of flat lands at cheap prices etc. They have also been a pioneer in e-bicycles, not just cars, bikes but e-bicycles and have done them a lot. Also, Surveillance which probably is far more controversial as it impact human rights. I had shared about a video of their traffic data on roads and how they capture it, use it and algorithmically constantly try to improve it, this is what nation-states should be doing. How much are the western countries doing of the above, at least not much that comes in media.

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

Umm.... That last being because Tesla started becoming direct and cutting out the middleman. They will be there but only for service. AFAIK, they have pioneered the direct selling idea and now other manufacturers have to go the same way otherwise they lose business. And the other point is valid too, as only two manufacturers I know who are fully vertically integrated, BYD and Tesla, more so BYD. So you won't find that sort of thing happening with them.

Actually no, they didn't pioneer that - they just resurrected an old idea back to life. And I will give Tesla credit and applause for that. Having said that, Tesla still has showrooms and sales advisors for potential customers, which also is not uncommon in some parts outside of North America. My two Passats in Germany for example, I went to a dealership, configured the car, secured a deposit, ordered the car and a few months later, went to Wolfsburg to pick it up from the manufacturer - really no different than the Tesla experience. I could go the the Tesla showroom across town tomorrow, talk to a sales advisor, configure a car, give them $250 and they call me when my car gets there where the rest of the necessary paperwork is done.

And as much as I love VW, I will 100% fully admit that VW Canada and VW America is really dropping the ball on this front.

But glad you admitted that your clip has nothing to do with EV vs ICE, therefore irrelevant to the topic.

Umm... My dear friend, the clip I share is from Electric Viking, he is all about EV's so to say it's nothing to do with EV vs ICE is just patently false. Especially as you see manufacturer after manufacturer dropping the ball and having less sales.

From Europe - Lynk and Co have been number 1 in Netherlands in last couple of months, MG HS has been the best seller in Wales, UK, Changan is Number 3 best seller in Saudi Arabia and BYD got 100,000 orders from a single rental German company.All of these are Chinese imports.

pune wrote:

Umm... My dear friend, the clip I share is from Electric Viking, he is all about EV's so to say it's nothing to do with EV vs ICE is just patently false. Especially as you see manufacturer after manufacturer dropping the ball and having less sales.

Umm... maybe actually read the email that he is talking about, it has nothing to do with ICE vs EV.

Not to mention the fact that the author of the email claims that they "LOVE Tesla" and spend all their money on Tesla stocks - no bias there

pune wrote:

From Europe - Lynk and Co have been number 1 in Netherlands in last couple of months, MG HS has been the best seller in Wales, UK, Changan is Number 3 best seller in Saudi Arabia and BYD got 100,000 orders from a single rental German company.All of these are Chinese imports.

Well, I don't live in Europe anymore and there are no Chinese built manufactures in Canada or the US (and I'm sure that little balloon incident over the last few days might hamper any potential of that in the near future). In regards to Sixt, seeing that they are planning on having a fleet that includes large orders from non-Chinese manufacturers, that order is only one of many to come.

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

Umm... My dear friend, the clip I share is from Electric Viking, he is all about EV's so to say it's nothing to do with EV vs ICE is just patently false. Especially as you see manufacturer after manufacturer dropping the ball and having less sales.

Umm... maybe actually read the email that he is talking about, it has nothing to do with ICE vs EV.

Not to mention the fact that the author of the email claims that they "LOVE Tesla" and spend all their money on Tesla stocks - no bias there

What you did not get is that the person who wrote the mail also shared a reality that most sales people in ICE are living pay cheque to pay cheque. I have witnessed similar things after Covid where showrooms of many vehicles were down and the General Managers had to roam around selling stuff or become Uber or some other riders just to make ends meet. What he shares is the insecurity that most of the salespeople are having as they have knowledge of ICE but 0 knowledge of EV's and as and when transition to EV's will happen (sooner than later) then they will have no jobs. I did see you kept silence on the sales numbers of Chinese EV's from Europe.

Pity, instead of having empathy towards them, you chose to have a laugh at their expense

pune wrote:

What you did not get is that the person who wrote the mail also shared a reality that most sales people in ICE are living pay cheque to pay cheque.

Wait, what? You think that has something to do with their cars being ICEs?



Dude, 63% of Americans are living paycheque to paycheque, and some of those work for Tesla - this ain't nothing new, has nothing to do with ICE and EVs ain't gonna solve it.

More importantly, if this guy is living paycheque to paycheque, what the heck is he doing playing the stock market? Like seriously, come on.

pune wrote:

What he shares is the insecurity that most of the salespeople are having as they have knowledge of ICE but 0 knowledge of EV's and as and when transition to EV's will happen (sooner than later) then they will have no jobs. I did see you kept silence on the sales numbers of Chinese EV's from Europe.

No, what the author of the email was sharing is that cars are being delivered without some of the advertised features like blind spot monitoring. He also believes that this is the reason why they aren't selling as many cars right now - while that very well might be a factor, I'm pretty sure that incredibly high interest rates are playing a much bigger role in that. Last year, you could get financing for 1 to 3% - this year its 6, 7 or 8% - and on a $30000 car, that's a lot of extra money that people don't have.

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

What you did not get is that the person who wrote the mail also shared a reality that most sales people in ICE are living pay cheque to pay cheque.

Wait, what? You think that has something to do with their cars being ICEs?



Dude, 63% of Americans are living paycheque to paycheque, and some of those work for Tesla - this ain't nothing new, has nothing to do with ICE and EVs ain't gonna solve it.

More importantly, if this guy is living paycheque to paycheque, what the heck is he doing playing the stock market? Like seriously, come on.

FWIW, Toyota dumped Tesla stock, Tesla has given more than 1600% returns and beyond. So those who have invested in it have made great returns irrespective or people trying to short it all the while. And this is what most people want, a comfortable life and pension. After 2008, we have seen that at least in the U.S. people have to look after themselves as the Government will only look after Wall Street. And of course, Republicans want less and less money to go for Social Security, medicaid etc. etc. But that is a separate point. These are all related. I am sure most people would not want their kids to be sales people in the same industry as they don't see a future for themselves or their kids.

And I wouldn't blame the people but the manufacturers as they have a responsibility towards those sales people as well. They are an extension of the product itself. Both ethics and empathy needs to be part of the solution, of course for some when it happens to others, it is source of laughter and relief

Planeflyer wrote:

Name a market that’s was disrupted where the leaders prior to disruption remained on top?

It’s the disruptive technology that comes out on top, not necessarily the first company or companies that commercialize the technology.

Many, many, times the prior leaders simply buy the upstarts. Look at Meta, Google, Microsoft, etc., in the IT market.

pune wrote:

FWIW, Toyota dumped Tesla stock

And?

pune wrote:

Tesla has given more than 1600% returns and beyond. So those who have invested in it have made great returns irrespective or people trying to short it all the while.

So has Bitcoin, but just like crypto, the stock market has its risks - you win and you lose and anyone living paycheque to paycheque is at a much higher risk of losing more.

pune wrote:

And this is what most people want, a comfortable life and pension.

Playing the stock market isn't the best strategy to achieve that. Unionizing is a good strategy for that, but alas, Saint Elon says

pune wrote:

After 2008, we have seen that at least in the U.S. people have to look after themselves as the Government will only look after Wall Street.

They've always had to look after themselves, the problem is many didn't and still aren't.

pune wrote:

And of course, Republicans want less and less money to go for Social Security, medicaid etc. etc. But that is a separate point.

It is indeed a separate point.

pune wrote:

These are all related. I am sure most people would not want their kids to be sales people in the same industry as they don't see a future for themselves or their kids.

Most people haven't wanted their kids to be cars sales individuals for a very, very long time lol.

pune wrote:

And I wouldn't blame the people but the manufacturers as they have a responsibility towards those sales people as well. They are an extension of the product itself.

So you think that people actually building Tesla's are raking in the cash?

In regards to sales people, just like most other industry's, there are those that do well in the field, make a decent living and those that do not - that has nothing to do with the manufacturer.

Funny that you should bring this up though, a manufacturer being responsible for their employees well being - does that extend to employees right to Unionize? Or is that a no-no because Saint Elon is anti-Union?

pune wrote:

Both ethics and empathy needs to be part of the solution, of course for some when it happens to others, it is source of laughter and relief

Their situation isn't the source of my laughter or comic relief, your comments are.

I am just sharing facts, not making stuff up hence almost all my posts have some article or the other as a citation unlike other people.

pune wrote:

I am just sharing facts, not making stuff up hence almost all my posts have some article or the other as a citation unlike other people.

Yet you misrepresent what you share. So you can provide all the links you want, but if you don't understand what the links are actually saying, then what is the point?

But lets talk facts and since you brought it up:

You feel that the manufacturer should have some responsibility towards a salesperson's financial well being because as you said, the product they are selling is an extension of the manufacturer. Now, does that same responsibility apply to manufacturing employees at Tesla wanting to Unionize or should they not have that right because Musk doesn't want a unionized workplace?

More facts to discuss:

In your above linked video, the email author states that it is their belief that they haven't sold as many units recently is solely because of Honda delivering units without blind spot monitoring, please explain how this is directly linked to the vehicles in question being ICE.

pune wrote:

I will ask so it's simple and categorical, do you believe that fossil fuels are the main cause for global warming not to mention all sorts of diseases. You can give an elaborate or a yes or no answer, upto you. Looking forward to that. Because EV's are part-answer to that, there are others but this is one of the main ones, and not just cars but transport fleets.

Fossil fuels are a large contributor, it’s true. But when you break that down further it turns out that transportation -in all its forms - is responsible for roughly a quarter of greenhouse gas emissions, and roughly another quarter comes from…

… electricity generation.

You’re not accomplishing very much if you drive an EV that is charged with coal-generated electricity.

Of course power generation is transitioning to greener methods and of course it’s a good thing for transportation to reduce its emissions. But we’re still a long way away from either generation or consumption being majority green.

QF7 wrote:

pune wrote:

I will ask so it's simple and categorical, do you believe that fossil fuels are the main cause for global warming not to mention all sorts of diseases. You can give an elaborate or a yes or no answer, upto you. Looking forward to that. Because EV's are part-answer to that, there are others but this is one of the main ones, and not just cars but transport fleets.

Fossil fuels are a large contributor, it’s true. But when you break that down further it turns out that transportation -in all its forms - is responsible for roughly a quarter of greenhouse gas emissions, and roughly another quarter comes from…

… electricity generation.

You’re not accomplishing very much if you drive an EV that is charged with coal-generated electricity.

Of course power generation is transitioning to greener methods and of course it’s a good thing for transportation to reduce its emissions. But we’re still a long way away from either generation or consumption being majority green.

Agreed to a point, and that is the reason I like to share news and facts so we can have more and more.

A gentleman upstream had asked about batteries and another gentleman had replied about second life of batteries. this is a new story from California sharing the same thing -

https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... power-grid

Tesla reported 900% sales increase from Germany -

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/what ... 09855.html

pune wrote:

Tesla reported 900% sales increase from Germany -

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/what ... 09855.html

As the story says - "It sounds impressive, but the figures don’t tell the whole story."

As the story states, they sold 912.2% more cars in January 2023 than they did in January 2022 but seeing that they also sold 1318% more cars in February 22 than they did in January 22 -lets wait until later this year before we collectively clap our hands.

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

Tesla reported 900% sales increase from Germany -

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/what ... 09855.html

As the story says - "It sounds impressive, but the figures don’t tell the whole story."

As the story states, they sold 912.2% more cars in January 2023 than they did in January 2022 but seeing that they also sold 1318% more cars in February 22 than they did in January 22 -lets wait until later this year before we collectively clap our hands.

Definitely, each month and quarter would be reporting on the same, don't worry

pune wrote:

Definitely, each month and quarter would be reporting on the same, don't worry

You think Tesla is going to sell 54,000 cars in Germany this month?

ACDC8 wrote:

pune wrote:

Definitely, each month and quarter would be reporting on the same, don't worry

You think Tesla is going to sell 54,000 cars in Germany this month?

As I shared, I report, don't make facts. So let's see what happens in February, March etc.