At the state level, California's government also leans heavily Democratic at the moment, which means Republicans tend to think it's some kind of communist worker's paradise. That's not really true. The state's ballot initiative process lets us see where the voters are on a lot of issues directly, and many leftist priorities (ending cash bail, dialing back the state's landmark anti-tax Prop. 13, etc.) have been voted down. The issue is that Republicans dealt themselves out of the game in the late 1990s with some hardline stances that turned off Latino voters, and since then the national party has run so far to the right that they've had a hard time clawing their way back in, not that California itself has gotten that much more progressive.

edit: whoops, didn't realize this was would pop up at the top of the page. But it's in reply to pune's posts upthread.

Newark727 wrote:

At the state level, California's government also leans heavily Democratic at the moment, which means Republicans tend to think it's some kind of communist worker's paradise. That's not really true. The state's ballot initiative process lets us see where the voters are on a lot of issues directly, and many leftist priorities (ending cash bail, dialing back the state's landmark anti-tax Prop. 13, etc.) have been voted down. The issue is that Republicans dealt themselves out of the game in the late 1990s with some hardline stances that turned off Latino voters, and since then the national party has run so far to the right that they've had a hard time clawing their way back in, not that California itself has gotten that much more progressive.

edit: whoops, didn't realize this was would pop up at the top of the page. But it's in reply to pune's posts upthread.

Yep, on the contrary, I often tell people unfamiliar that California is really the frontier of late stage American capitalism.

Aaron747 wrote:

Yep, on the contrary, I often tell people unfamiliar that California is really the frontier of late stage American capitalism.

No, it's just a case study in the left progressive experiment. High tax and high regulation is not a capitalist thing it's a government thing.

Unless Trump has a stroke or dies, he will be the Republican nominee. Otherwise, Trump will sabotage any other Republican who receives the nomination and Biden will get re-elected. It is impossible for the Republicans to win without the die hard Trump supporters. As long as Trump is around, Republicans have no choice but to nominate him,

DeSantis might decide to wait until end of the year to announce he is running, and amp up for Super Tuesday and rely some more on later states. I'm not sure how it would affect donations and there is a late start for momentum, but it'd delay the mudslinging with Trump and not have it start too early.

Nikki Haley has announced she is running and I'd expect a crowded field nonetheless. I wonder if Tulsi will officially switch to GOP for camera time and be able to create side show mudslinging against Haley and hawkish, RINO or woke candidates.

I know some people despise party switchers, I'm not one of them, however joining the current GOP ? That's a stretch.

Newark727 wrote:

At the state level, California's government also leans heavily Democratic at the moment, which means Republicans tend to think it's some kind of communist worker's paradise. That's not really true. The state's ballot initiative process lets us see where the voters are on a lot of issues directly, and many leftist priorities (ending cash bail, dialing back the state's landmark anti-tax Prop. 13, etc.) have been voted down. The issue is that Republicans dealt themselves out of the game in the late 1990s with some hardline stances that turned off Latino voters, and since then the national party has run so far to the right that they've had a hard time clawing their way back in, not that California itself has gotten that much more progressive.

edit: whoops, didn't realize this was would pop up at the top of the page. But it's in reply to pune's posts upthread.

Thank you, that also adds to my knowledge

Aesma wrote:

I know some people despise party switchers, I'm not one of them, however joining the current GOP ? That's a stretch.

She endorsed GOP candidates last year and actively stumped for them. She is a popular figure in conservative media too.

Maybe she can stay an Indepedent and file to run in the GOP, like Bernie Sanders but opposite party.

Nonetheless I expect a crowded GOP field. I wonder if Trump goes on offense on Nikki Haley for being disloyal too.

DeSantis have significant appeal for Independents and Centrists. The groups that carry Biden in 2020 and Democrat in midterms.

It would be down to DeSantis to rely on them during the GOP primary. He knows the Far Right would vote for him if he win the Primary. Just like Biden knows the Far left would still vote for him during 2020.

The main problem would happen when he try to entice the Far right during the primary to win the audience which scares off the Independents and Centrists. Which would make them run to biden's lap once more if DeSantis sway too much to the right.

ewt340 wrote:

DeSantis have significant appeal for Independents and Centrists. The groups that carry Biden in 2020 and Democrat in midterms.
……….

Which would make them run to biden's lap once more if DeSantis sway too much to the right.

DeSantis is so far right he’ll fall off the end of the planet if he take a breath.
Mentioning the political center and him in the same sentence might switch the magnetic poles if you aren’t careful.

NIKV69 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Yep, on the contrary, I often tell people unfamiliar that California is really the frontier of late stage American capitalism.

No, it's just a case study in the left progressive experiment. High tax and high regulation is not a capitalist thing it's a government thing.

Totally incorrect. You’re confusing SF and pockets of LA county voting with the whole state. There are more business starts in CA, more tension between public/private interests, and larger wealth gap than any state. That’s late stage capitalism. Some of the loony policies and taxes are a knee jerk reaction to the huge wealth gap.

phluser wrote:

DeSantis might decide to wait until end of the year to announce he is running, and amp up for Super Tuesday and rely some more on later states. I'm not sure how it would affect donations and there is a late start for momentum, but it'd delay the mudslinging with Trump and not have it start too early.

Nikki Haley has announced she is running and I'd expect a crowded field nonetheless. I wonder if Tulsi will officially switch to GOP for camera time and be able to create side show mudslinging against Haley and hawkish, RINO or woke candidates.

Haley has name recognition but it remains to be seen if she can fundraise nationally. One thing about her though other candidates will need to be aware of is she's a hard worker and will put in the time.

T54A wrote:

Disclaimer: I’m not from the US.

Why does it seem that a country with such a mature democracy struggles to find quality presidential candidates?

For what it’s worth, my country has the most useless politicians, but that’s another story.

24 hour news media. Lingering unresolved tensions from the Civil War and Civil Rights Era. Poor education in some areas. Take your pick.

ewt340 wrote:

DeSantis have significant appeal for Independents and Centrists. The groups that carry Biden in 2020 and Democrat in midterms.

It would be down to DeSantis to rely on them during the GOP primary. He knows the Far Right would vote for him if he win the Primary. Just like Biden knows the Far left would still vote for him during 2020.

The main problem would happen when he try to entice the Far right during the primary to win the audience which scares off the Independents and Centrists. Which would make them run to biden's lap once more if DeSantis sway too much to the right.

My friend, you watch WAAAAAY too much Fox News, OAN, or Newsmax if you think DeSantis is centrist/center-right and doesn’t already entice the far right.

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

DeSantis have significant appeal for Independents and Centrists. The groups that carry Biden in 2020 and Democrat in midterms.

It would be down to DeSantis to rely on them during the GOP primary. He knows the Far Right would vote for him if he win the Primary. Just like Biden knows the Far left would still vote for him during 2020.

The main problem would happen when he try to entice the Far right during the primary to win the audience which scares off the Independents and Centrists. Which would make them run to biden's lap once more if DeSantis sway too much to the right.

My friend, you watch WAAAAAY too much Fox News, OAN, or Newsmax if you think DeSantis is centrist/center-right and doesn’t already entice the far right.

Exactly. The biggest thing wrong with De Santis according to Trump supporters is purely and simply that he is not Trump. There's a bee's dick between them otherwise on policy.

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

DeSantis have significant appeal for Independents and Centrists. The groups that carry Biden in 2020 and Democrat in midterms.

It would be down to DeSantis to rely on them during the GOP primary. He knows the Far Right would vote for him if he win the Primary. Just like Biden knows the Far left would still vote for him during 2020.

The main problem would happen when he try to entice the Far right during the primary to win the audience which scares off the Independents and Centrists. Which would make them run to biden's lap once more if DeSantis sway too much to the right.

My friend, you watch WAAAAAY too much Fox News, OAN, or Newsmax if you think DeSantis is centrist/center-right and doesn’t already entice the far right.

I'm Liberal. It's just that DeSantis is more business friendly compared to Trump. He won't be going to established trade wars with everybody or licking Putin's feet.
Not saying he is centrist in terms of Social issues. But economically, yes.

The far right would be forced to vote for him if we win the primary. They don't want another biden.

And in case you haven't notice, companies doesn't care about social issues as long as they keep making money.

ewt340 wrote:

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

DeSantis have significant appeal for Independents and Centrists. The groups that carry Biden in 2020 and Democrat in midterms.

It would be down to DeSantis to rely on them during the GOP primary. He knows the Far Right would vote for him if he win the Primary. Just like Biden knows the Far left would still vote for him during 2020.

The main problem would happen when he try to entice the Far right during the primary to win the audience which scares off the Independents and Centrists. Which would make them run to biden's lap once more if DeSantis sway too much to the right.

My friend, you watch WAAAAAY too much Fox News, OAN, or Newsmax if you think DeSantis is centrist/center-right and doesn’t already entice the far right.

I'm Liberal. It's just that DeSantis is more business friendly compared to Trump. He won't be going to established trade wars with everybody or licking Putin's feet.
Not saying he is centrist in terms of Social issues. But economically, yes.

The far right would be forced to vote for him if we win the primary. They don't want another biden.

And in case you haven't notice, companies doesn't care about social issues as long as they keep making money.

Being economically liberal but socially conservative is very much a right wing thing!

M564038 wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

My friend, you watch WAAAAAY too much Fox News, OAN, or Newsmax if you think DeSantis is centrist/center-right and doesn’t already entice the far right.

I'm Liberal. It's just that DeSantis is more business friendly compared to Trump. He won't be going to established trade wars with everybody or licking Putin's feet.
Not saying he is centrist in terms of Social issues. But economically, yes.

The far right would be forced to vote for him if we win the primary. They don't want another biden.

And in case you haven't notice, companies doesn't care about social issues as long as they keep making money.

Being economically liberal but socially conservative is very much a right wing thing!

Definitely a trend we've been seeing in the Republican Party since Trump began courting disaffected blue collar voters. The Republican Party is starting to look more and more like the Democratic Party of past decades with respect to trade and resentment of the "elite," and trending away from the party of Reagan. Which, personally, is immensely comical to watch my obsequious Reaganite mother step in line with this thinking, oblivious to the fact that her hero would've labeled this as anti-business and liberal and I've watched her rail against exactly this for twenty years. But she doesn't get it.

Aaron747 wrote:

phluser wrote:

DeSantis might decide to wait until end of the year to announce he is running, and amp up for Super Tuesday and rely some more on later states. I'm not sure how it would affect donations and there is a late start for momentum, but it'd delay the mudslinging with Trump and not have it start too early.

Nikki Haley has announced she is running and I'd expect a crowded field nonetheless. I wonder if Tulsi will officially switch to GOP for camera time and be able to create side show mudslinging against Haley and hawkish, RINO or woke candidates.

Haley has name recognition but it remains to be seen if she can fundraise nationally. One thing about her though other candidates will need to be aware of is she's a hard worker and will put in the time.

Someone mentioned to me that Haley running helps Trump and hurts a DeSantis potential run. I didn't see it originally since DeSantis would pull from a different base than Haley. Haley would have to at the minimum say transgenders shouldn't compete in women sports, if she hasn't already said so, something all GOP candidates will need to start off with before further challenging transgender rights.

As of now, both DeSantis and Haley pass the initial anyone but Trump but GOP first filter. I assume if Haley doesn't get far, she will drop out and endorse Trump, since she was appointed by him for the UN role. I don't think she has any working relationship with DeSantis or much in common with him to endorse DeSantis over Trump.

Even Hogan now has basically said he would endorse Trump if Trump ended up being the Republican candidate. I was wrong that I thought he had drifted so far from the current GOP and that he was in the never Trumper group.

ewt340 wrote:

I'm Liberal. It's just that DeSantis is more business friendly compared to Trump. He won't be going to established trade wars with everybody or licking Putin's feet.
Not saying he is centrist in terms of Social issues. But economically, yes.

The far right would be forced to vote for him if we win the primary. They don't want another biden.

And in case you haven't notice, companies doesn't care about social issues as long as they keep making money.

We don't know DeSantis' view on Putin really.

Trump wasn't necessarily for Putin although on camera he showed to be amiable. He still permitted a couple of countries into NATO and didn't reverse Obama's sanctions.

Back in March of last year, DeSantis put down France more than Putin. I couldn't find anything more recent.

Between the two, if DeSantis is the nominee, he will likely get a larger share of Republicans to win down the ticket, given the controversies with Trump. The party under his helm would target corporations that are woke, have diversity trainings, corporations that are into green. I don't see it better for business than if Trump was President, who would likely be more hands off.

LAX772LR wrote:

The media is so blatantly hyping DeSantis that it's almost not funny.

While part of me wants to see him spectacularly flaming out once the primaries actually start, a la Rudy Giuliani circa 2008 (after yearrrrrs of "America's Mayor" media hype)...

...I'm not sure Trump's the one to do it to him. Why? Because despite DeSantis being a demonstrably terrible debater, and easily/visibly flustered at the slightest opposition; he's actually LIKED by many.

It's easy for Trump to call Rubio tiny, or trash Cruz's wife/father to his face--- because no one actually likes Marco Rubio nor especially Ted Cruz. Seeing them get a comeuppance puts a smile on faces from both the Left and the Right.

But DeSantis has almost fanatic supporters, and Trump just outright trashing him (or especially attacking his family) likely won't connect in the same way.

While Desantis is demonstrably more "capable" than Trump, which is not saying much, he's like Trump minus the empathy and affable nature. I mean the guy has the appeal of colorectal cancer. Trump has the sense of humor of a puppy mill, but Desantis has even less, before you even get to the horror show of his politics.

ewt340 wrote:

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

DeSantis have significant appeal for Independents and Centrists. The groups that carry Biden in 2020 and Democrat in midterms.

It would be down to DeSantis to rely on them during the GOP primary. He knows the Far Right would vote for him if he win the Primary. Just like Biden knows the Far left would still vote for him during 2020.

The main problem would happen when he try to entice the Far right during the primary to win the audience which scares off the Independents and Centrists. Which would make them run to biden's lap once more if DeSantis sway too much to the right.

My friend, you watch WAAAAAY too much Fox News, OAN, or Newsmax if you think DeSantis is centrist/center-right and doesn’t already entice the far right.

I'm Liberal. It's just that DeSantis is more business friendly compared to Trump. He won't be going to established trade wars with everybody or licking Putin's feet.
Not saying he is centrist in terms of Social issues. But economically, yes.

The far right would be forced to vote for him if we win the primary. They don't want another biden.

And in case you haven't notice, companies doesn't care about social issues as long as they keep making money.

I don't see how Desantis is "business friendly" when he's gone after the state's biggest employer for not sufficiently bashing gays. There's endless examples of him going after business for not bending to the state's (ie his) will.

Getting back to the thread title, how much does it really hurt DeSantis to be called disloyal by Trump?

Considering that Trump:
* has insulted/demeaned/whined about many individuals and voting blocs
* has thus alienated many swing voters
* which has (according to conventional wisdom) cost the Republicans in several election cycles
* and has shown no signs whatsoever of broadening his appeal

How does branding DeSantis as disloyal take any votes away from him?

Trump’s die-hard base will stay with him and never vote for anyone else as long as he is on the ballot. Anybody not in that die-hard base is by definition open to other options. I.e., they’re not “loyal” so why would they care if DeSantis is “loyal”?

From a political strategy point of view I just don’t see how this attack makes sense?

Well MAGAs will now hound DeSantis on social media.

DeSantis has the support of the base with his book banning and anti-woke laws and forcing grade school teachers to stop indoctrinating kids with CRT (a law concept only taught in certain law schools, but don't let facts get in the way) and banning history being taught from non-White perspective and so forth. The other guy only has insults.