It has been three years since the UK left the EU. Those three years have been tough, not just for the UK but for everyone. But it seems that Brexit has left the UK in a far worse position than other nations that have also had to deal with a global pandemic, an energy crisis and war in Ukraine.

What impact has Brexit had on the UK economy?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64450882

Most nations saw international trade collapse at the height of pandemic. Since then, the rest of the G7 countries have seen trade, when compared to the size of their economies, bounce back in a way that hasn't happened in the UK.

Source: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... nc-003.png

A study by the think tanks Centre for European Reform and UK in a Changing Europe suggests that there are 330,000 fewer workers in the UK as a result of Brexit. That may only be 1% of the total workforce - but sectors such as transport, hospitality and retail have been particularly hard hit.

Source: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... 4.png.webp

It's not as though we can look forward to 2023 with optimism:
UK expected to be only major economy to shrink in 2023 - IMF
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64452995

The UK economy will shrink and perform worse than other advanced economies, including Russia, as the cost of living continues to hit households, the International Monetary Fund has said.

So, we've "taken back control", why aren't we seeing any benefits? We've signed lots of new trade deals (although the vast majority of those were simply exact replacements of previous EU deals), but most crucially, we haven't signed trade deals with the two largest economies out there -- USA & China. Deals signed with Japan, Australia and New Zealand are predicted to have next to no impact on economic growth. Indeed, many claim the rush to sign a deal with Australia has left us in a far worse position than before Brexit.
https://fullfact.org/economy/post-Brexi ... eals-Gove/
https://www.ft.com/content/d81f6e4c-771 ... 7a74089ede



When will the average person in the UK ever see any benefit from Brexit?

The dangers of simpleton voters swallowing populist guff on full display. A warning for every modern nation heading down the same path of temptation.

Inevitably (and we warned some of the areas that most heavily voted for this con would be hit hardest by it);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me7FuTY9C9M

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... our-europe

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... eu-economy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0osFjN4MX0

All those fishermen and farmers both of whom voted heavily for it, they are being hammered.
But my question remains, what part of an obvious liar like Johnson (who admitted he only backed it to destabilize Cameron aiding his chances of the top job, not expecting Leave to win), that ghastly creep Rees-Mogg and the general chamber of political horrors behind it, do to convince anyone not an offshore tax avoider to vote for it?

I believe the overwhelming number of votes for Brexit came from the de-industrialized midlands region of England. Many there believe that many of their jobs went to other countries in the UE when it was other factors too, like self-destructive worker strikes and Tory party policies (in particular by PM Thatcher) that destroyed 'blue collar' jobs. They also saw Brexit as a fix to stop new immigration from former colonies, Africa, south and west Asia, Middle East they hated as 'taking their jobs'. Now we see the result of Brexit in cold hard economic numbers, it is likely making life far worse than if they stayed in.

Brexit costs the UK £100BN per year in lost output

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

Wonder when Johnson and Farage will tour the UK with this reality painted on their bus.

FWIW - £100BN per year, that's a whopping £1,900M a week!

Those £350M they toured with were a bargain indeed, especially as it was without the notorious rebate still.

Someone will pick up that lost output and chances are most of it will go to the EU. So no worries it seems most Europeans will be a bit better off. We always have to look at the bright side of life.

And comparing Global Britain to the rest of the major global economies...

"The UK to Be Only G-7 Economy still in Recession in 2023, IMF Says"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... #xj4y7vzkg

Britain faces the bleakest two years of any major industrial nation with a persistant recession in 2023 and the slowest growth of peers in 2024, the International Monetary Fund predicts.

It's becoming difficult to find Brexit defenders. And ones that make some sense, impossible.

scbriml wrote:

It has been three years since the UK left the EU. Those three years have been tough, not just for the UK but for everyone. But it seems that Brexit has left the UK in a far worse position than other nations that have also had to deal with a global pandemic, an energy crisis and war in Ukraine.

What impact has Brexit had on the UK economy?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64450882

Most nations saw international trade collapse at the height of pandemic. Since then, the rest of the G7 countries have seen trade, when compared to the size of their economies, bounce back in a way that hasn't happened in the UK.

Source: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... nc-003.png

A study by the think tanks Centre for European Reform and UK in a Changing Europe suggests that there are 330,000 fewer workers in the UK as a result of Brexit. That may only be 1% of the total workforce - but sectors such as transport, hospitality and retail have been particularly hard hit.

Source: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... 4.png.webp

It's not as though we can look forward to 2023 with optimism:
UK expected to be only major economy to shrink in 2023 - IMF
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64452995

The UK economy will shrink and perform worse than other advanced economies, including Russia, as the cost of living continues to hit households, the International Monetary Fund has said.

So, we've "taken back control", why aren't we seeing any benefits? We've signed lots of new trade deals (although the vast majority of those were simply exact replacements of previous EU deals), but most crucially, we haven't signed trade deals with the two largest economies out there -- USA & China. Deals signed with Japan, Australia and New Zealand are predicted to have next to no impact on economic growth. Indeed, many claim the rush to sign a deal with Australia has left us in a far worse position than before Brexit.
https://fullfact.org/economy/post-Brexi ... eals-Gove/
https://www.ft.com/content/d81f6e4c-771 ... 7a74089ede



When will the average person in the UK ever see any benefit from Brexit?

The NZ and AU deals really did a number on UK meat producers when they kick in fully in about 10 years time.

IMO the much more significant cost is the way that Brexit resulted in all the competent politicians in the governing party being purged.

zkojq wrote:

IMO the much more significant cost is the way that Brexit resulted in all the competent politicians in the governing party being purged.

I'm going to steal a quote from George Carlin -- "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

Nobody asked me, and clearly this did not impact the UK in a positive light for enough people, but in the long run the single currency is going to be what hobbles the EU. Italy is next out unless they can get their own currency back.

So when can we begin Breturn talks?

The EU has become stronger since Brexit. The problems Brexit has caused, haven't been solved and cannot be solved. Northern Ireland's problem (although Northern Ireland has boomed because in two systems) hasn't been solved, the which for Scottish independence remains, small businesses can't use the EU market anymore etc.

The people voted Brexit got their wish, the UK is treated like a 3rd country by the EU.

Just for the records, if there is any indication that this thread is taking the direction like the previous ones it will be locked without any additional warning.

Dutchy wrote:

The EU has become stronger since Brexit. The problems Brexit has caused, haven't been solved and cannot be solved. Northern Ireland's problem (although Northern Ireland has boomed because in two systems) hasn't been solved, the which for Scottish independence remains, small businesses can't use the EU market anymore etc.

The people voted Brexit got their wish, the UK is treated like a 3rd country by the EU.

The liars, crooks and general charlatans pushing it told them we would have the best of both worlds, sadly on that day, they believed it, the last push came from Farage and his racist scaremongering for which there is a small but significant enough number to push it over the edge.
The types that don’t usually vote except sometimes for minor parties.

Johnson went on about having our cake and eating it, he was of course also referring to his corrupt personal conduct, which in the coming days could see him found to have deliberately lied to Parliament potentially facing a suspension, if 10 days or more he could face a recall.
His seat has a majority of just over 7000, prior to him it was, for the Tories more like 12-14,000.
Hence reports of him on, to recall what some Tory MP’s did in the 1990’s, going on a ‘Chicken Run’ to find a safer seat.

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Yes, it would and would mean that the UK would become a member of the single market and customs union, like Norway. But that is a long way off and Norway is on record that they do not want the UK becoming a member of the European Economic Area (EEA).

The EU isn't aligning with anyone, it dictates standards of goods being sold in the EU, and in the slipstream of that many many nations around the world are just implementing it. If they do not do that, they won't be able to sell things in the EU or have to make things according to two standards, which doesn't make sense.

Just saw this -

https://unherd.com/2023/01/introducing- ... tain-2023/

If as an outsider I could see it as a bad idea, why couldn't most people, but then I probably didn't see those ads and whatnot. If you bombard people enough time with lies, they will accept it as truth. This was true in Hitler's time, and it's true today in all far right leaders such as Johnson, Modi, Trump etc. In the U.S. Trump has been found guilty number of times.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Don’t suggest that to a Brexiteer - their head will explode!

scbriml wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Don’t suggest that to a Brexiteer - their head will explode!

Sovereignty is the right to keep shooting your own foot just because.

GDB wrote:

The liars, crooks and general charlatans pushing it told them we would have the best of both worlds, sadly on that day, they believed it, the last push came from Farage and his racist scaremongering for which there is a small but significant enough number to push it over the edge.
The types that don’t usually vote except sometimes for minor parties.

The vote was 52-48. Million votes. I doubt "racist" scaremongering had that much to do with it.

Dutchy wrote:

The EU has become stronger since Brexit. The problems Brexit has caused, haven't been solved and cannot be solved. Northern Ireland's problem (although Northern Ireland has boomed because in two systems) hasn't been solved, the which for Scottish independence remains, small businesses can't use the EU market anymore etc.

The people voted Brexit got their wish, the UK is treated like a 3rd country by the EU.

I have never been to the UK but doubt it's a third world country. More than capable of fixing it's economy with some leadership.

NIKV69 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

The EU has become stronger since Brexit. The problems Brexit has caused, haven't been solved and cannot be solved. Northern Ireland's problem (although Northern Ireland has boomed because in two systems) hasn't been solved, the which for Scottish independence remains, small businesses can't use the EU market anymore etc.

The people voted Brexit got their wish, the UK is treated like a 3rd country by the EU.

I have never been to the UK but doubt it's a third world country. More than capable of fixing it's economy with some leadership.

Not what I said, not a third-world country, but as a 3rd party, just like any other country which it does not have close ties with. It cannot fix its economy if you put up trade barriers with your closest trading nations. Not with leadership alone, or if you mean by that, that it should move more closely to the EU, then yes I agree.

scbriml wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Don’t suggest that to a Brexiteer - their head will explode!

Brexiteers, who are that still these days?

All those politicians who tooted it have long left the building OR taken up government positions and want to forget Brexit has ever happened and not surprisingly so, given the great success it has been.

Nor the Simpletons who only get their information from the Sun or one of the Daily's.
For instance - it has been largely kept under the lid in the UK press so far, but the UK government is currently negotiating with the EC on how to comply with all the legal obligations it has committed to as laid out in NI protocol in a satisfactory way for the EU. The only thing that is noticable in the popular press in the UK is the fact that gone are the almost daily comments from the high horses about a new deal or breaking up the terms and conditions of the current NI protocol.

A bit similar as how Brexit negotiations started off with a rift over the exit bill in fact, which was labelled "absurd", "never going to be paid", "going to be used against them"... only to disappear of the political scene and the front pages and re-emerge at the and of summer as a complex technical agreement... which turned out to be exaclty as expensive as the EU said it would, only wrapped in such a complex way no simpleton could still understand.

And just like on the NI protocol, everybody in UK politics understands the only sensible thing to do is to allign with EU standards in the long run, standards to which London now has ZERO say; all is needed is time to make it look like it's not a humiliating U-turn and meanwhile the British people have to pay dearly for this as their living standards are flushed through the drain even faster than they'd otherwise would. But hey, at least its the consequence of a referendum: all those who didnt vote or voted LEAVE should just shut up and pay up for as long as it is needed.

NIKV69 wrote:

GDB wrote:

I have never been to the UK but doubt it's a third world country. More than capable of fixing it's economy with some leadership.

But he didn't say third WORLD country, he said third country, which is the legal term used by EU memberstates to describe any non-EU memberstate which has no preferential agreement with the EU's Single Market.

1st countries are obviously all other EU member states
2nd countries are non- EU member states like e.g. Norway, which is EU-like through some sort of a very close alignment (EEA membership, or other)
3rd countries are all other countries around the globe like Zimbabwe, Russia, or indeed the UK now

NIKV69 wrote:

GDB wrote:

The liars, crooks and general charlatans pushing it told them we would have the best of both worlds, sadly on that day, they believed it, the last push came from Farage and his racist scaremongering for which there is a small but significant enough number to push it over the edge.
The types that don’t usually vote except sometimes for minor parties.

The vote was 52-48. Million votes. I doubt "racist" scaremongering had that much to do with it.

Dutchy wrote:

The EU has become stronger since Brexit. The problems Brexit has caused, haven't been solved and cannot be solved. Northern Ireland's problem (although Northern Ireland has boomed because in two systems) hasn't been solved, the which for Scottish independence remains, small businesses can't use the EU market anymore etc.

The people voted Brexit got their wish, the UK is treated like a 3rd country by the EU.

I have never been to the UK but doubt it's a third world country. More than capable of fixing it's economy with some leadership.

Not what I said, however the fact remains Remain were in the lead, albeit not by much, throughout.
I live here, I know people like that exist and in some numbers, Farage did what he did, namely a high profile poster campaign claiming that Turkey was about to join the EU (nonsense) and a poster showing refugees nowhere near the UK and a slogan that even some on the Leave thought was very similar to how the Jews were referred to in 1930’s Germany.

I get it, Farage who at his posh school sang Nazi marching songs and hung around with far right, neo Facist elements in Europe, you are fine with them judging by your constant attempts to defend Trump and his pals and that Farage has been a guest at that gathering of them, CPAC.
He is a mini me Trump, a grifter, who always defends the bigots, is one.
Anymore on what are for you, foreign affairs? I mean, your first and only one on the Ukraine thread did not age well, so excuse me if I don’t take this one seriously.

If you did know about this subject you would understand that the Brexit mob have been found out with facts on the ground, in peoples lives, how the worst most corrupt politicians of recent times, including Johnson, have all been Brexiteers, a majority, rather greater than Leave ever had, now think it was a mistake because one other reason above all, nothing to do with the ‘bloody foreigners’ group who will never admit they’ve been conned, most know now that they have been lied to, everything the Leave lot claimed either hasn’t happened or the opposite has.
And their excuses have run out of road, how do you think we managed to go through three PM’s and four Chancellors in a year, one of the latter only in post a short time, so he could attempt to influence his tax dodging.

Liz Truss ‘did’ Brexit the way those backing it always wanted and never dared tell the electorate, their cheerleaders in the press said so, that did not go well as you might recall.

Kiwirob wrote:

The NZ and AU deals really did a number on UK meat producers when they kick in fully in about 10 years time.

So how is the AU/NZ deal going to do a "number" on UK farmers that the EU can't do right now if they wanted to?

Being a Kiwi, you would be aware that the seasons are different for veal and lamb products.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

A101 wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

It doesn’t matter, that fact that they can be different means an enhanced border check requirement and additional paperwork to ensure compliance. A significant amount of non-added value work and time payed for by someone. The friction of the border is hurting and preventing trade.

One specific example I can give you is the requirement for qualified and certified vets to sign off on all shipments of animal products. That vet needs paying and it takes time., all the things business loves…

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A101 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

The NZ and AU deals really did a number on UK meat producers when they kick in fully in about 10 years time.

So how is the AU/NZ deal going to do a "number" on UK farmers that the EU can't do right now if they wanted to?

Being a Kiwi, you would be aware that the seasons are different for veal and lamb products.

Why would the EU do it and had they ever made any attempt to do so?

The UK with these unfavorable FTA's has self inflicted damage on it's farmers, nobody else has done this.

Meat products exported to the UK are chilled or frozen, the season doesn't matter.

And the quota has been dropped for dairy so you will be getting real NZ butter, not the rebranded crap pretending to be Anchor butter.

A101 wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

I thought the whole point was that we wanted to follow a different approach?.

A101 wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

So you have no clue about UKCA?

All products used to be manufactured to CE standards, the UK has pulled out of this and is in the process of applying UKCA standards, instead of being a simple paperwork exercise, swapping CE for UKCA the standards for many products have changed, which mean products need to be tested and re-approved. So now manufacturers have two standards to work with CE which has a market of 700m people and is accepted around the word and UKCA which is the standard for a market of 68m and is not accepted throughout the world. Expect to see price increases or products no longer available as manufacturers decide it's not worth applying for UKCA.

The UK has also pulled out of the Marine Equipment Directive which set the standard for equipment used on ships, many countries outside of the EU also accept MED certification. The UK now has it's own new standard MER, this standard is also not a paperwork exercise it will require testing and won't be accepted by anyone else.

GDB wrote:

Not what I said, however the fact remains Remain were in the lead, albeit not by much, throughout.
I live here, I know people like that exist and in some numbers, Farage did what he did, namely a high profile poster campaign claiming that Turkey was about to join the EU (nonsense) and a poster showing refugees nowhere near the UK and a slogan that even some on the Leave thought was very similar to how the Jews were referred to in 1930’s Germany.

I get it, Farage who at his posh school sang Nazi marching songs and hung around with far right, neo Facist elements in Europe, you are fine with them judging by your constant attempts to defend Trump and his pals and that Farage has been a guest at that gathering of them, CPAC.
He is a mini me Trump, a grifter, who always defends the bigots, is one.
Anymore on what are for you, foreign affairs? I mean, your first and only one on the Ukraine thread did not age well, so excuse me if I don’t take this one seriously.

If you did know about this subject you would understand that the Brexit mob have been found out with facts on the ground, in peoples lives, how the worst most corrupt politicians of recent times, including Johnson, have all been Brexiteers, a majority, rather greater than Leave ever had, now think it was a mistake because one other reason above all, nothing to do with the ‘bloody foreigners’ group who will never admit they’ve been conned, most know now that they have been lied to, everything the Leave lot claimed either hasn’t happened or the opposite has.
And their excuses have run out of road, how do you think we managed to go through three PM’s and four Chancellors in a year, one of the latter only in post a short time, so he could attempt to influence his tax dodging.

Liz Truss ‘did’ Brexit the way those backing it always wanted and never dared tell the electorate, their cheerleaders in the press said so, that did not go well as you might recall.

I misread it but the premise seems to be the same. Instead of playing the blame game and insulting the people that voted to succeed from the EU get some leadership in your government and fix your economy.

bennett123 wrote:

A101 wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

I thought the whole point was that we wanted to follow a different approach?.

Yeah, but now we've "taken back control" don't you feel so much better?

Kiwirob wrote:

A101 wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

So you have no clue about UKCA?

All products used to be manufactured to CE standards, the UK has pulled out of this and is in the process of applying UKCA standards, instead of being a simple paperwork exercise, swapping CE for UKCA the standards for many products have changed, which mean products need to be tested and re-approved. So now manufacturers have two standards to work with CE which has a market of 700m people and is accepted around the word and UKCA which is the standard for a market of 68m and is not accepted throughout the world. Expect to see price increases or products no longer available as manufacturers decide it's not worth applying for UKCA.

The UK has also pulled out of the Marine Equipment Directive which set the standard for equipment used on ships, many countries outside of the EU also accept MED certification. The UK now has it's own new standard MER, this standard is also not a paperwork exercise it will require testing and won't be accepted by anyone else.

A classic example of applying unique standards that adds real costs to businesses. And people are surprised that businesses, especially smaller ones, are exporting less to the EU.

Still never mind, we've got those new trade deals with USA and China to fall back on. Oh wait....

NIKV69 wrote:

GDB wrote:

Not what I said, however the fact remains Remain were in the lead, albeit not by much, throughout.
I live here, I know people like that exist and in some numbers, Farage did what he did, namely a high profile poster campaign claiming that Turkey was about to join the EU (nonsense) and a poster showing refugees nowhere near the UK and a slogan that even some on the Leave thought was very similar to how the Jews were referred to in 1930’s Germany.

I get it, Farage who at his posh school sang Nazi marching songs and hung around with far right, neo Facist elements in Europe, you are fine with them judging by your constant attempts to defend Trump and his pals and that Farage has been a guest at that gathering of them, CPAC.
He is a mini me Trump, a grifter, who always defends the bigots, is one.
Anymore on what are for you, foreign affairs? I mean, your first and only one on the Ukraine thread did not age well, so excuse me if I don’t take this one seriously.

If you did know about this subject you would understand that the Brexit mob have been found out with facts on the ground, in peoples lives, how the worst most corrupt politicians of recent times, including Johnson, have all been Brexiteers, a majority, rather greater than Leave ever had, now think it was a mistake because one other reason above all, nothing to do with the ‘bloody foreigners’ group who will never admit they’ve been conned, most know now that they have been lied to, everything the Leave lot claimed either hasn’t happened or the opposite has.
And their excuses have run out of road, how do you think we managed to go through three PM’s and four Chancellors in a year, one of the latter only in post a short time, so he could attempt to influence his tax dodging.

Liz Truss ‘did’ Brexit the way those backing it always wanted and never dared tell the electorate, their cheerleaders in the press said so, that did not go well as you might recall.

I misread it but the premise seems to be the same. Instead of playing the blame game and insulting the people that voted to succeed from the EU get some leadership in your government and fix your economy.

You mean the economy that has been tied to the EEC/EU since the 70's, that economy? The UK had relevance as a part of the EU.

NIKV69 wrote:

GDB wrote:

Not what I said, however the fact remains Remain were in the lead, albeit not by much, throughout.
I live here, I know people like that exist and in some numbers, Farage did what he did, namely a high profile poster campaign claiming that Turkey was about to join the EU (nonsense) and a poster showing refugees nowhere near the UK and a slogan that even some on the Leave thought was very similar to how the Jews were referred to in 1930’s Germany.

I get it, Farage who at his posh school sang Nazi marching songs and hung around with far right, neo Facist elements in Europe, you are fine with them judging by your constant attempts to defend Trump and his pals and that Farage has been a guest at that gathering of them, CPAC.
He is a mini me Trump, a grifter, who always defends the bigots, is one.
Anymore on what are for you, foreign affairs? I mean, your first and only one on the Ukraine thread did not age well, so excuse me if I don’t take this one seriously.

If you did know about this subject you would understand that the Brexit mob have been found out with facts on the ground, in peoples lives, how the worst most corrupt politicians of recent times, including Johnson, have all been Brexiteers, a majority, rather greater than Leave ever had, now think it was a mistake because one other reason above all, nothing to do with the ‘bloody foreigners’ group who will never admit they’ve been conned, most know now that they have been lied to, everything the Leave lot claimed either hasn’t happened or the opposite has.
And their excuses have run out of road, how do you think we managed to go through three PM’s and four Chancellors in a year, one of the latter only in post a short time, so he could attempt to influence his tax dodging.

Liz Truss ‘did’ Brexit the way those backing it always wanted and never dared tell the electorate, their cheerleaders in the press said so, that did not go well as you might recall.

I misread it but the premise seems to be the same. Instead of playing the blame game and insulting the people that voted to succeed from the EU get some leadership in your government and fix your economy.

Well the economy isn't actually broken per se, it just performs at a lower level with no additional benefit to negate that. The 'fix' as you say is independent of the effects of Brexit such that if you want to make up the 4% of lost output then that4% would still be available to 'fix' without Brexit.

Fred

NIKV69 wrote:

I misread it but the premise seems to be the same. Instead of playing the blame game and insulting the people that voted to succeed from the EU get some leadership in your government and fix your economy.

Oh the vast majority of the population want that. All polls point towards a massive landslide win for Labour at the next election and the vast majority of folks for the last year if not more want to return to being an EU member. Problem is, there isn't an election for another 2 years, so whilst the current government implodes (and goes through PM after PM, and front bencher after front bencher resigns in disgrace) and takes the country and Brexiteers with it, the rest of us can do nothing.

Country is in the middle of severe strikes from health, transport and other public workers (for very good reasons).

Blame is something that is clear where the fault lies right now.

If you want to 'fix' a nation's economy, it needs to be able to produce and export its output flawlessly and competitively.

Production is basically a domestic action and it requires domestic policy choices like what level of education, healthcare and housing is to be the norm (for the skilled workforce to be put in place) as well as ample public transport, infrastructure and hardware (for the labour and goods produced to be transported along). All of those always were and always will be UK policy, Brexit or no Brexit

Exportation is by definition a transnational action and it requires to have low or ideally no trade barriers in order not be able to compete with other nations goods on the international markets. And here the UK put itself in a disfavourable position by raising trade barriers on itself, and not just with some remote competitor, but with its biggest trading partner and nextdoor neighbour, all because of Brexit.

It's a known fact that trade and distance are linked: you trade more with your neighbour than with a nation half across the globe, so the act of cutting all ties with that neighbour are very harmful for an economy and its a pipe dream to think you can offset those volumes with increased trade to other markets as the figures from the UK are clearly showing.

Besides, when the UK doesn't fix its domestic issues (see above) which would allow it to gain more productivity, any such transnational deals are largely to the benefit of the other party anyway as it gains the reciprocal right to basically overflow the British market with its goods of course. And the UK government can't really fix them, not just because of ideological believes which refrain it from doing so, but because the reduced economic output is squeezing government budgets, so basically no government could spend enough money on the full transformation needed because it just isn't available any longer in the UK.

There's no fixing this economy, just accepting the decline now and managing its downsizing by adjusting the nation's living standard to it.
Not unless the UK accepts that it all starts by stepping back in tune with the rest of the countries surrounding it and playing along their rules once again.
Only then can trade volume with the surrounding EU pick up again, can more money be made in the UK, can more taxes by collected within the UK and can more money be spent so as to start the domestic leveling up.
All that is needed for this is a good portion of humble pie delivered at Westminster and Nr 10 Downing Street, but it seems the taste of that is very much disliked in British politics, even if all know by now its on the menu anyway: they just try to keep it away from lunch, and hope that by diner time, they will have left the building.

flipdewaf wrote:

A101 wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

It doesn’t matter, that fact that they can be different means an enhanced border check requirement and additional paperwork to ensure compliance. A significant amount of non-added value work and time payed for by someone. The friction of the border is hurting and preventing trade.

One specific example I can give you is the requirement for qualified and certified vets to sign off on all shipments of animal products. That vet needs paying and it takes time., all the things business loves…

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was a pretty straight forward question, which standards have changed have changed?

Kiwirob wrote:

A101 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

The NZ and AU deals really did a number on UK meat producers when they kick in fully in about 10 years time.

So how is the AU/NZ deal going to do a "number" on UK farmers that the EU can't do right now if they wanted to?

Being a Kiwi, you would be aware that the seasons are different for veal and lamb products.

Why would the EU do it and had they ever made any attempt to do so?

The UK with these unfavorable FTA's has self inflicted damage on it's farmers, nobody else has done this.

Meat products exported to the UK are chilled or frozen, the season doesn't matter.

And the quota has been dropped for dairy so you will be getting real NZ butter, not the rebranded crap pretending to be Anchor butter.

You have not answered the question how has the trade deal done a "number" on UK farmers?

Reinhardt wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

I misread it but the premise seems to be the same. Instead of playing the blame game and insulting the people that voted to succeed from the EU get some leadership in your government and fix your economy.

Oh the vast majority of the population want that. All polls point towards a massive landslide win for Labour at the next election and the vast majority of folks for the last year if not more want to return to being an EU member. Problem is, there isn't an election for another 2 years, so whilst the current government implodes (and goes through PM after PM, and front bencher after front bencher resigns in disgrace) and takes the country and Brexiteers with it, the rest of us can do nothing.

Country is in the middle of severe strikes from health, transport and other public workers (for very good reasons).

Blame is something that is clear where the fault lies right now.

Johnson, pro EU as London Mayor, (thus proving that yes, most Leave voters were at best, not well informed), has around 100 Tory MP’s and a majority of the aging, swivel eyed membership, wanting him back.
As is likely and Sunak (Joe Biden who I get has a minor speech impediment, is fine mispronouncing him as ‘Sunook’ though Mr Bean would be better), gets rinsed in the local elections, then it is possible that these Johnson groupies could try to destabilize the PM and force yet another leadership campaign, which I doubt will be sustainable politically. They might even create an issue so as not to allow a budget to be passed, which would mean an election this year.
God knows the country needs an emetic.

Kiwirob wrote:

A101 wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

I suspect the the best the EU and UK can do at this time is aligning standards of trade goods. This would also fix the Ireland problem.

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

So you have no clue about UKCA?

All products used to be manufactured to CE standards, the UK has pulled out of this and is in the process of applying UKCA standards, instead of being a simple paperwork exercise, swapping CE for UKCA the standards for many products have changed, which mean products need to be tested and re-approved. So now manufacturers have two standards to work with CE which has a market of 700m people and is accepted around the word and UKCA which is the standard for a market of 68m and is not accepted throughout the world. Expect to see price increases or products no longer available as manufacturers decide it's not worth applying for UKCA.

The UK has also pulled out of the Marine Equipment Directive which set the standard for equipment used on ships, many countries outside of the EU also accept MED certification. The UK now has it's own new standard MER, this standard is also not a paperwork exercise it will require testing and won't be accepted by anyone else.

You are aware that the UK is no longer in the EU don't you?

UKCA marking show that it complies with UK standards. Any goods that require the CE markings is up to the exporter to comply with upon entry to the EU. Just because the markings have changed does not mean the product is inferior or standards have actually changed.

As to the MED/MER majority would be international standards IMO with some national requirements. The MED just organized for its member nations just like every other nation has its own independent body for maritime laws. it's not a big deal like you make it out to be instead of the EU doing for the UK its now set up its own statutory body.

1.1 International Maritime Organization (IMO) Conventions require ships to carry safety and counter pollution equipment (collectively ‘marine equipment’) that has been approved by the ship’s Flag Administration. This means that Flag Administrations are required to ensure that marine equipment carried on board ships flying their flag comply with international design, construction, performance and testing standards, and to ensure that such equipment is approved as meeting those standards.

1.2 After the United Kingdom left the European Union, the UK implemented regulations to establish UK conformity assessment procedures to ensure that the UK can continue to comply with its international obligations by applying international standards to marine equipment that is to be placed on board UK ships.

1.3 ‘The Regulations’ shall mean the Merchant Shipping (Marine Equipment) Regulations 2016, as amended.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -equipment

No different from Australia

https://www.amsa.gov.au/about/regulatio ... pseArea262

No different to the EU

https://www.emsa.europa.eu/med-directive-mared.html

scbriml wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

A101 wrote:

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

So you have no clue about UKCA?

All products used to be manufactured to CE standards, the UK has pulled out of this and is in the process of applying UKCA standards, instead of being a simple paperwork exercise, swapping CE for UKCA the standards for many products have changed, which mean products need to be tested and re-approved. So now manufacturers have two standards to work with CE which has a market of 700m people and is accepted around the word and UKCA which is the standard for a market of 68m and is not accepted throughout the world. Expect to see price increases or products no longer available as manufacturers decide it's not worth applying for UKCA.

The UK has also pulled out of the Marine Equipment Directive which set the standard for equipment used on ships, many countries outside of the EU also accept MED certification. The UK now has it's own new standard MER, this standard is also not a paperwork exercise it will require testing and won't be accepted by anyone else.

A classic example of applying unique standards that adds real costs to businesses. And people are surprised that businesses, especially smaller ones, are exporting less to the EU.

Still never mind, we've got those new trade deals with USA and China to fall back on. Oh wait....

Which unique standards would that be, we are no deviating from the IMO

Stepping in with a thought here for a second, A101...
According to you there's no deviation (yet), but still there is clearly already massive economic disruption from just having the -according to you very same- British standards under a different legislative form now from the EU standards... Still convinced it would be a good idea to deviate not only in form, but also in substance from them, then?
Cos that's Brexit, remember? Taking back control.

A101 wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

A101 wrote:

Which standards for goods have changed since we officially left?

It doesn’t matter, that fact that they can be different means an enhanced border check requirement and additional paperwork to ensure compliance. A significant amount of non-added value work and time payed for by someone. The friction of the border is hurting and preventing trade.

One specific example I can give you is the requirement for qualified and certified vets to sign off on all shipments of animal products. That vet needs paying and it takes time., all the things business loves…

Fred
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was a pretty straight forward question, which standards have changed have changed?

Nobody knows. What is known is that the UK doesn't grant UKCA just because you have CE. So if you want to sell in both markets, you need to go through the certification process twice.

We're on an aviation website, every piece of hardware that is used on a plane, from the most basic rivet, costs 10 times the cost of the exact same part not used in aviation, just because of the certification costs.

A101 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

So you have no clue about UKCA?

All products used to be manufactured to CE standards, the UK has pulled out of this and is in the process of applying UKCA standards, instead of being a simple paperwork exercise, swapping CE for UKCA the standards for many products have changed, which mean products need to be tested and re-approved. So now manufacturers have two standards to work with CE which has a market of 700m people and is accepted around the word and UKCA which is the standard for a market of 68m and is not accepted throughout the world. Expect to see price increases or products no longer available as manufacturers decide it's not worth applying for UKCA.

The UK has also pulled out of the Marine Equipment Directive which set the standard for equipment used on ships, many countries outside of the EU also accept MED certification. The UK now has it's own new standard MER, this standard is also not a paperwork exercise it will require testing and won't be accepted by anyone else.

A classic example of applying unique standards that adds real costs to businesses. And people are surprised that businesses, especially smaller ones, are exporting less to the EU.

Still never mind, we've got those new trade deals with USA and China to fall back on. Oh wait....

Which unique standards would that be, we are no deviating from the IMO

If there's no (current) deviation, then why create a UK standard at all? Just so Brexiteers can say "We've taken back control"?

So a company that make small electrical items and exports to the EU has to certify their goods to two different standards even though those standards are currently the same? That's a serious Brexit win right there!

I'll ask again the question that never seems to get answered - can you name one benefit from Brexit that the average Brit on the street is enjoying today?

Aesma wrote:

A101 wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

It doesn’t matter, that fact that they can be different means an enhanced border check requirement and additional paperwork to ensure compliance. A significant amount of non-added value work and time payed for by someone. The friction of the border is hurting and preventing trade.

One specific example I can give you is the requirement for qualified and certified vets to sign off on all shipments of animal products. That vet needs paying and it takes time., all the things business loves…

Fred
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was a pretty straight forward question, which standards have changed have changed?

Nobody knows. What is known is that the UK doesn't grant UKCA just because you have CE. So if you want to sell in both markets, you need to go through the certification process twice.

We're on an aviation website, every piece of hardware that is used on a plane, from the most basic rivet, costs 10 times the cost of the exact same part not used in aviation, just because of the certification costs.

goods produced in UK with CE markings according to government guidance

Reducing re-testing costs, by allowing certificates provided by non-UK conformity assessment bodies (CABs) testing to EU requirements, issued before the end of this year to be used as a basis for UKCA marking certification.

Any one exporting to the EU just like any other third nation will comply with EU rules, not hard is it

A101 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

A101 wrote:

So how is the AU/NZ deal going to do a "number" on UK farmers that the EU can't do right now if they wanted to?

Being a Kiwi, you would be aware that the seasons are different for veal and lamb products.

Why would the EU do it and had they ever made any attempt to do so?

The UK with these unfavorable FTA's has self inflicted damage on it's farmers, nobody else has done this.

Meat products exported to the UK are chilled or frozen, the season doesn't matter.

And the quota has been dropped for dairy so you will be getting real NZ butter, not the rebranded crap pretending to be Anchor butter.

You have not answered the question how has the trade deal done a "number" on UK farmers?

NZ (and maybe Australian farmers) are incredibly efficient, with NZ lamb and dairy we can produce a product which is superior to what British producers can produce at a lower price point, with no import tariffs how will British farmers compete?

https://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-i ... rade-deal/

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/brexit/are- ... 32.article

NZ and Australia are the 2nd and 1st largest exporters of lamb, they are the 7th and 3rd largest exports of beef, and NZ is the largest exporter of dairy.

The upside for the British public is better products at a better price and with British farmers going out of business re-wilding the countryside can occur

Another win for Brexit!

scbriml wrote:

A101 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

A classic example of applying unique standards that adds real costs to businesses. And people are surprised that businesses, especially smaller ones, are exporting less to the EU.

Still never mind, we've got those new trade deals with USA and China to fall back on. Oh wait....

Which unique standards would that be, we are no deviating from the IMO

If there's no (current) deviation, then why create a UK standard at all? Just so Brexiteers can say "We've taken back control"?

So a company that make small electrical items and exports to the EU has to certify their goods to two different standards even though those standards are currently the same? That's a serious Brexit win right there!

I'll ask again the question that never seems to get answered - can you name one benefit from Brexit that the average Brit on the street is enjoying today?

Why thought that would be self-explanatory, we are no longer in the EU

Any country that might have a higher standard for whatever product in the EU would also have to get their goods checked to make sure it complies with the EU as well that's the life of exporters in each country