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AeroVega
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:03 am

flipdewaf wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
The financial benefits of Brexit were always a long time coming, but that's not the only thing that counts. Being able to decide yourself who can and who cannot come in to your country is one thing.

Excellent! I have a list of people I don’t want in, it’s a great idea however it would be helpful if they told me who to give the list to.


You should give that list to your parliamentary representative. If you live in the UK they have the power to do something with it. In the EU, not.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4917
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:06 am

AeroVega wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
The financial benefits of Brexit were always a long time coming, but that's not the only thing that counts. Being able to decide yourself who can and who cannot come in to your country is one thing.

Excellent! I have a list of people I don’t want in, it’s a great idea however it would be helpful if they told me who to give the list to.


You should give that list to your parliamentary representative. If you live in the UK they have the power to do something with it. In the EU, not.

So I can decide but still have to persuade my representative? Wasn’t that that same in the EU? Didn’t I write to my MEP? This feels like I have been sold a pup!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:18 am

AeroVega wrote:

Why not keep accepting CE marks?


Because even though we are still on the same page the UK might not be the one to diverge but the EU might, case in point the EU Commission just approved a regulation allowing mealworms powder in food processing. So far, I haven't seen a reciprocal regulation in the UK. so any food stuff with the new ingredient would not meet UK standards.

But might find its way into the UK food chain if we still displayed EU, CE markings.

AeroVega wrote:
Why not prioritize free trade with Europe?



We have no other third country has zero tariff zero quota from day one of the agreement.

AeroVega wrote:
Having an economically successful UK is in the interest of Europe too.



I think it's important that all countries across the globe are successful.
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:38 am

flipdewaf wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Excellent! I have a list of people I don’t want in, it’s a great idea however it would be helpful if they told me who to give the list to.


You should give that list to your parliamentary representative. If you live in the UK they have the power to do something with it. In the EU, not.

So I can decide but still have to persuade my representative? Wasn’t that that same in the EU? Didn’t I write to my MEP? This feels like I have been sold a pup!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whilst the UK was not part of Schengen, who do those counties stop unwanted criminals from entering?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4917
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:11 am

A101 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

You should give that list to your parliamentary representative. If you live in the UK they have the power to do something with it. In the EU, not.

So I can decide but still have to persuade my representative? Wasn’t that that same in the EU? Didn’t I write to my MEP? This feels like I have been sold a pup!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whilst the UK was not part of Schengen, who do those counties stop unwanted criminals from entering?

So it’s not a benefit of being out of the EU at all?

And there was me thinking after over a hundred posts in this thread and hundreds more across countless other threads you’d finally found a benefit. Oh well, keep trying we’re all ears!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 22182
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:20 am

Kiwirob wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is a truism. Sure, no government can appease all the people 100% of the time, but it is a valid question what did it actually accomplish? What concrete benefits are there to Brexit? What positive impact has it made for ordinary citizens in their lives? We have seen tons of negative impacts, so it must have some positive impacts as well.
I am very curious to get the answer to these main questions, I haven't seen anything in the pst 3 years.


The answers are out there you just have to look on past threads and other media

Benefits are very subjective people have different views on the matter


Apart from the very Farage like answer, what have the benefits been for you personally? Name 5.


Good luck getting a sensible answer to that question from any Brexiteer. All you'll get is vague, non-answers like "We've taken back control!" or some nonsense that "It's not all about the economy." (Brexit bus bs anyone) without ever being able to clarify what's changed for the better for the average Brit now we have that alleged control back.

Oh wait, we've missed the obvious one - blue passports. Yay!
 
A101
Posts: 3795
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:25 am

flipdewaf wrote:
A101 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
So I can decide but still have to persuade my representative? Wasn’t that that same in the EU? Didn’t I write to my MEP? This feels like I have been sold a pup!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whilst the UK was not part of Schengen, who do those counties stop unwanted criminals from entering?

So it’s not a benefit of being out of the EU at all?

And there was me thinking after over a hundred posts in this thread and hundreds more across countless other threads you’d finally found a benefit. Oh well, keep trying we’re all ears!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I never mentioned any benefits so not sure who you are talking to.

All I asked is how do they monitor Schengen areas.

But we still have benefits issuing our own visas more control over who comes
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 639
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:50 am

What's truely incredible with the Brexit saga is the never ending incompetence of the brexiters in charge of implementing their project.

They wanted their own regulations but didn't figure out they'd need much more infrastructure and employee to check what is entering their market conforms to their regs.
Therefore started building costly big facilities in a hurry to make said checks, and hire personnel.
Before understanding those checks were actually an "act of self-harm" (JRM) and postpone it numerous time, and propably forever, making the facilities simply useless...
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/news/the-giant-brexit-border-control-site-that-now-sits-empty-280998/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/21/giant-brexit-border-control-site-sevington-kent-ukrainian-pets

If only it was just about borders, but no, the totemic Rwanda removal policy is also a disaster, fishers like farmers associations all says they are screwed by Brexit outcome, democratically it was to finish with decision made by unelected politicians but it's UK gov that is gaining power no the parliament (I simplify but think REUL bill, only ministers will decide will law may mot be scrapped altogether). And now some hints of a push to bring back Boris ROTFL Johnson ?? :banghead:
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:51 am

A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

Why not keep accepting CE marks?


Because even though we are still on the same page the UK might not be the one to diverge but the EU might, case in point the EU Commission just approved a regulation allowing mealworms powder in food processing. So far, I haven't seen a reciprocal regulation in the UK. so any food stuff with the new ingredient would not meet UK standards.

But might find its way into the UK food chain if we still displayed EU, CE markings.

AeroVega wrote:
Why not prioritize free trade with Europe?



We have no other third country has zero tariff zero quota from day one of the agreement.

AeroVega wrote:
Having an economically successful UK is in the interest of Europe too.



I think it's important that all countries across the globe are successful.
I didn't realise the CE marking was for foodstuffs?
I thought it was for manufactured goods?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking


P.S. I wonder if ChatGPT could tell us what the benefits of Brexit are. I don't have an account.
 
A101
Posts: 3795
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:03 am

ReverseFlow wrote:
A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

Why not keep accepting CE marks?


Because even though we are still on the same page the UK might not be the one to diverge but the EU might, case in point the EU Commission just approved a regulation allowing mealworms powder in food processing. So far, I haven't seen a reciprocal regulation in the UK. so any food stuff with the new ingredient would not meet UK standards.

But might find its way into the UK food chain if we still displayed EU, CE markings.

AeroVega wrote:
Why not prioritize free trade with Europe?



We have no other third country has zero tariff zero quota from day one of the agreement.

AeroVega wrote:
Having an economically successful UK is in the interest of Europe too.



I think it's important that all countries across the globe are successful.
I didn't realise the CE marking was for foodstuffs?
I thought it was for manufactured goods?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking


P.S. I wonder if ChatGPT could tell us what the benefits of Brexit are. I don't have an account.


I am not 100% sure what products it has to be attached to, but I have seen it on prepacked food in the past, never took much notice of it to be honest just know I have seen it.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:28 pm

AeroVega wrote:
The financial benefits of Brexit were always a long time coming, but that's not the only thing that counts. Being able to decide yourself who can and who cannot come in to your country is one thing. Not needing to worry about another layer of corrupt politicians wasting your money is another.

Having said that, UK politicians are not very smart about Brexit. Why not keep accepting CE marks? Why not prioritize free trade with Europe? Having an economically successful UK is in the interest of Europe too.


The UK wasn't part of shengen they always had control over who entered.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14688
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:31 pm

A101 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
A101 wrote:

Whilst the UK was not part of Schengen, who do those counties stop unwanted criminals from entering?

So it’s not a benefit of being out of the EU at all?

And there was me thinking after over a hundred posts in this thread and hundreds more across countless other threads you’d finally found a benefit. Oh well, keep trying we’re all ears!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I never mentioned any benefits so not sure who you are talking to.

All I asked is how do they monitor Schengen areas.

But we still have benefits issuing our own visas more control over who comes


You always had that control since you weren't part of schengen.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14688
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:44 pm

A101 wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
A101 wrote:

Because even though we are still on the same page the UK might not be the one to diverge but the EU might, case in point the EU Commission just approved a regulation allowing mealworms powder in food processing. So far, I haven't seen a reciprocal regulation in the UK. so any food stuff with the new ingredient would not meet UK standards.

But might find its way into the UK food chain if we still displayed EU, CE markings.



We have no other third country has zero tariff zero quota from day one of the agreement.



I think it's important that all countries across the globe are successful.
I didn't realise the CE marking was for foodstuffs?
I thought it was for manufactured goods?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking


P.S. I wonder if ChatGPT could tell us what the benefits of Brexit are. I don't have an account.


I am not 100% sure what products it has to be attached to, but I have seen it on prepacked food in the past, never took much notice of it to be honest just know I have seen it.


toys
pyrotechnics
recreational craft and personal watercraft
simple pressure vessels
electromagnetic compatibility
non-automatic weighing instruments
measuring instruments
measuring container bottles
lifts
equipment for potentially explosive atmospheres (UKEX)
radio equipment
pressure equipment
personal protective equipment (PPE)
gas appliances
machinery
equipment for use outdoors
ecodesign
aerosols
low voltage electrical equipment
Medical devices
Rail interoperability
Construction products
Civil explosives
Marine equipment
Cableways
Energy using products
Transportable pressure equipment
Hazardous substances (RoHS)

The really interesting one will be when the motor industry changes over form an EU certificate of conformity to UKCA certificate of conformity, I wonder how many manufacturers will decide that making vehicles for the RHD UK (already a PITA) and now they will have to go through a separate UK set of approvals for a market in decline, I wonder how many will simply pull out?
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:15 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
A101 wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
I didn't realise the CE marking was for foodstuffs?
I thought it was for manufactured goods?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking


P.S. I wonder if ChatGPT could tell us what the benefits of Brexit are. I don't have an account.


I am not 100% sure what products it has to be attached to, but I have seen it on prepacked food in the past, never took much notice of it to be honest just know I have seen it.


toys
pyrotechnics
recreational craft and personal watercraft
simple pressure vessels
electromagnetic compatibility
non-automatic weighing instruments
measuring instruments
measuring container bottles
lifts
equipment for potentially explosive atmospheres (UKEX)
radio equipment
pressure equipment
personal protective equipment (PPE)
gas appliances
machinery
equipment for use outdoors
ecodesign
aerosols
low voltage electrical equipment
Medical devices
Rail interoperability
Construction products
Civil explosives
Marine equipment
Cableways
Energy using products
Transportable pressure equipment
Hazardous substances (RoHS)

The really interesting one will be when the motor industry changes over form an EU certificate of conformity to UKCA certificate of conformity, I wonder how many manufacturers will decide that making vehicles for the RHD UK (already a PITA) and now they will have to go through a separate UK set of approvals for a market in decline, I wonder how many will simply pull out?
Many moons ago when I did a placement at an automotive supplier - for one of the models of cars they built 2 RHD dashboards a month (granted it was a Peugeot 607)
I doubt they would even do that nowadays considering the extra tooling etc.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The really interesting one will be when the motor industry changes over form an EU certificate of conformity to UKCA certificate of conformity, I wonder how many manufacturers will decide that making vehicles for the RHD UK (already a PITA) and now they will have to go through a separate UK set of approvals for a market in decline, I wonder how many will simply pull out?


Vehicle production has already slumped to it's lowest output level ever the last 6 months. The UK's vision for battery production also went the other week when the newest/ biggest factory (which was suposed to get govt funding but didn't) declared itself bankrupt.

Problems with JIT supply chains, personel issues (staff, lack thereof) , lack of tax breaks / govt funding, and other countries being more attractive are all causations of the lowering of car production in the UK.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 13356
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:20 pm

AeroVega wrote:
The financial benefits of Brexit were always a long time coming, but that's not the only thing that counts. Being able to decide yourself who can and who cannot come in to your country is one thing. Not needing to worry about another layer of corrupt politicians wasting your money is another.


Yeah, we must believe in de long-term benefits of Brexit, Rees-Mogg said it will be 50 years off, or must we believe the Brexiteers in 2016 who said it will be immediately? Ah well, we know for a fact it isn't immediately, 100bn lost in GDP, and we will see if Rees-Mogg was right in 47 years, if the UK is still there as an country and still outside of the EU.

AeroVega wrote:
Having said that, UK politicians are not very smart about Brexit. Why not keep accepting CE marks? Why not prioritize free trade with Europe? Having an economically successful UK is in the interest of Europe too.


So you are pleading for a Norwegian-style deal? Yes, it is in the interest of the EU that the UK is successful, but not at any price. Brexit was always a lose-lose situation, so the EU did the only thing it sensible could do: accept Brexit and protect itself against the UK. And it did just that.
 
pune
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:21 pm

A101 wrote:
pune wrote:
A101 wrote:

As I said it's a business decision.

Eventually someone sees that the equipment breaks down a lot then then does a cost v production analysis, then most likely starts looking at the competition.


But what if the competition is also doing the same thing. Once you have no standards, then it doesn't really matter.


Thats true but it's not about whichever nation having no standards, it is about the business you alluded to knowingly committing fraud by using non-compliant parts.

Many businesses do this if they can get away with it or their quality assurance systems have let them down. I remember watching Air Crash Investigation and one of the episodes were talking about counterfeit parts and even some ended up on Air Force One


Unless and until you have regulations and more important enforcement of those regulations, otherwise how would people know. Let's say somebody does come to know something, how hard it is too prove. Remember the VW diesel thing that came out, if you read it you would know how hard it was to prove and those who did didn't get any job in the sector afterwards. The engineers were burned for life. One of them incidentally is from my country.
 
GDB
Posts: 17059
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:53 pm

I don’t think Brexit supporters understand (as it seems is typical with most things) that products coming into the UK from the EU are not checked, Jacob Rees Mogg said it’ll be too expensive if import checks comes into effect. There was a random lorry check late last year and they found out of 22 lorries 21 had rotted meats in them. Never checked.
Just think of all the others getting through, every day. It's also a happy time for organized crime and smuggling.

Real world example, not endlessly repeated rebuttals to endless nonsense from one source, those who bother to rebut, great but why bother?
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:37 pm

GDB wrote:
I don’t think Brexit supporters understand (as it seems is typical with most things) that products coming into the UK from the EU are not checked, Jacob Rees Mogg said it’ll be too expensive if import checks comes into effect. There was a random lorry check late last year and they found out of 22 lorries 21 had rotted meats in them. Never checked.
Just think of all the others getting through, every day. It's also a happy time for organized crime and smuggling.

Real world example, not endlessly repeated rebuttals to endless nonsense from one source, those who bother to rebut, great but why bother?
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?
 
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SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2987
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:14 pm

To avoid deletion, please remember to provide a link to your source when stating facts, thanks.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1748
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:14 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don’t think Brexit supporters understand (as it seems is typical with most things) that products coming into the UK from the EU are not checked, Jacob Rees Mogg said it’ll be too expensive if import checks comes into effect. There was a random lorry check late last year and they found out of 22 lorries 21 had rotted meats in them. Never checked.
Just think of all the others getting through, every day. It's also a happy time for organized crime and smuggling.

Real world example, not endlessly repeated rebuttals to endless nonsense from one source, those who bother to rebut, great but why bother?
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?


No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.
 
pune
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:21 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don’t think Brexit supporters understand (as it seems is typical with most things) that products coming into the UK from the EU are not checked, Jacob Rees Mogg said it’ll be too expensive if import checks comes into effect. There was a random lorry check late last year and they found out of 22 lorries 21 had rotted meats in them. Never checked.
Just think of all the others getting through, every day. It's also a happy time for organized crime and smuggling.

Real world example, not endlessly repeated rebuttals to endless nonsense from one source, those who bother to rebut, great but why bother?
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?


No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.


Also, when you are part of the same market as somebody was trying to tell me, you can shame those people, when outside the market your influence counts to 0. So the incentive to do the wrong thing is more than the right thing. In fact, after reading quite a few Terry Pratchett books, I can understand a bit why and how Britishers think, at least those who are from privileged backgrounds. And that probably is in part of the problem.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1748
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:26 pm

pune wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?


No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.


Also, when you are part of the same market as somebody was trying to tell me, you can shame those people, when outside the market your influence counts to 0. So the incentive to do the wrong thing is more than the right thing. In fact, after reading quite a few Terry Pratchett books, I can understand a bit why and how Britishers think, at least those who are from privileged backgrounds. And that probably is in part of the problem.


you can also put a Made in UK sticker on it. As no one checks stuff no one will know the origin and who to blame. No checks no control.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:41 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don’t think Brexit supporters understand (as it seems is typical with most things) that products coming into the UK from the EU are not checked, Jacob Rees Mogg said it’ll be too expensive if import checks comes into effect. There was a random lorry check late last year and they found out of 22 lorries 21 had rotted meats in them. Never checked.
Just think of all the others getting through, every day. It's also a happy time for organized crime and smuggling.

Real world example, not endlessly repeated rebuttals to endless nonsense from one source, those who bother to rebut, great but why bother?
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?


No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.


They could have had good meat on the continent and shipped dodgy meat to the UK when the UK was in the EU.
See the horsemeat scandal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal
 
GDB
Posts: 17059
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:42 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?


No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.


They could have had good meat on the continent and shipped dodgy meat to the UK when the UK was in the EU.
See the horsemeat scandal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal


Just the one event, now we have the new normal, great.
We know this was anticipated hence all the money spent on this and other sites then abandoned, due cost. The cost of building however...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... inian-pets
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1748
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:49 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?


No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.


They could have had good meat on the continent and shipped dodgy meat to the UK when the UK was in the EU.
See the horsemeat scandal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal


Sure the problem lies something else though: Products designed to stay in the EU and that are certified to EU standard are tested in regular as well as unannounced controls. Products that are designed for export to a country with no agreement that demands controls or standards can just be packed and shipped without question. You can throw what ever you want in the container and seal it. No one will bat an eye in the EU if its destined to a 3rd country.
If its destined for the EU at any point in the chain, from producer to seller it could be tested and checked. To 3rd countries the check would be at the border of said country when they unseal the container to check the freight and see if it is compliant and can be imported.
 
pune
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:36 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.


They could have had good meat on the continent and shipped dodgy meat to the UK when the UK was in the EU.
See the horsemeat scandal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal


Sure the problem lies something else though: Products designed to stay in the EU and that are certified to EU standard are tested in regular as well as unannounced controls. Products that are designed for export to a country with no agreement that demands controls or standards can just be packed and shipped without question. You can throw what ever you want in the container and seal it. No one will bat an eye in the EU if its destined to a 3rd country.
If its destined for the EU at any point in the chain, from producer to seller it could be tested and checked. To 3rd countries the check would be at the border of said country when they unseal the container to check the freight and see if it is compliant and can be imported.


Basically it's UK headache whether it's ruined meat or illegal people being trafficked or anything worse.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:43 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

No but they can produce and sell good meat in the EU and the stuff thats out of date can just be sold and shipped to the UK instead of thrown away.


They could have had good meat on the continent and shipped dodgy meat to the UK when the UK was in the EU.
See the horsemeat scandal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal


Sure the problem lies something else though: Products designed to stay in the EU and that are certified to EU standard are tested in regular as well as unannounced controls. Products that are designed for export to a country with no agreement that demands controls or standards can just be packed and shipped without question. You can throw what ever you want in the container and seal it. No one will bat an eye in the EU if its destined to a 3rd country.
If its destined for the EU at any point in the chain, from producer to seller it could be tested and checked. To 3rd countries the check would be at the border of said country when they unseal the container to check the freight and see if it is compliant and can be imported.
I'd agree to that.

I was just pointing out that bad actors have always been around and it's not always due to Brexit.

But yes, 21 out of 22 is pretty shocking and all this about 'taking back control' is a farce which the sleepy moggy only really promotes in self-interest and not for the country.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... im-richer/
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:47 pm

pune wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:

They could have had good meat on the continent and shipped dodgy meat to the UK when the UK was in the EU.
See the horsemeat scandal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal


Sure the problem lies something else though: Products designed to stay in the EU and that are certified to EU standard are tested in regular as well as unannounced controls. Products that are designed for export to a country with no agreement that demands controls or standards can just be packed and shipped without question. You can throw what ever you want in the container and seal it. No one will bat an eye in the EU if its destined to a 3rd country.
If its destined for the EU at any point in the chain, from producer to seller it could be tested and checked. To 3rd countries the check would be at the border of said country when they unseal the container to check the freight and see if it is compliant and can be imported.


Basically it's UK headache whether it's ruined meat or illegal people being trafficked or anything worse.


ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage
 
pune
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:56 pm

A101 wrote:
pune wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Sure the problem lies something else though: Products designed to stay in the EU and that are certified to EU standard are tested in regular as well as unannounced controls. Products that are designed for export to a country with no agreement that demands controls or standards can just be packed and shipped without question. You can throw what ever you want in the container and seal it. No one will bat an eye in the EU if its destined to a 3rd country.
If its destined for the EU at any point in the chain, from producer to seller it could be tested and checked. To 3rd countries the check would be at the border of said country when they unseal the container to check the freight and see if it is compliant and can be imported.


Basically it's UK headache whether it's ruined meat or illegal people being trafficked or anything worse.


ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage


If it was so, then there would never be any shady suppliers anywhere in the world. In fact even known reputed manufacturers have been known to short-change customers throughout history -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:03 pm

pune wrote:
A101 wrote:
pune wrote:

Basically it's UK headache whether it's ruined meat or illegal people being trafficked or anything worse.


ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage


If it was so, then there would never be any shady suppliers anywhere in the world. In fact even known reputed manufacturers have been known to short-change customers throughout history -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/


It's also known if you continually send inferior products as the suggestion of rotting meat then don't be surprised that they source another supplier.

Goods are still checked when they reach its destination for quality assurance reasons when dealing with foodstuffs

As to your link you identify the end consumer not the corporation
 
pune
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:11 pm

A101 wrote:
pune wrote:
A101 wrote:

ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage


If it was so, then there would never be any shady suppliers anywhere in the world. In fact even known reputed manufacturers have been known to short-change customers throughout history -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/


It's also known if you continually send inferior products as the suggestion of rotting meat then don't be surprised that they source another supplier.

Goods are still checked when they reach its destination for quality assurance reasons when dealing with foodstuffs

As to your link you identify the end consumer not the corporation


Or just don't import and lessen your food variety. There have been reports as well as sites now that do show how much potential time it may take to cross a border from UK to EU and back. And sometimes, it is in days. So who are you going to blame for the delays and slowly variety shrinks, market and then economy shrinks. If you import from somewhere else, the cost would increase, say either from Australia or India or any other country, just due to the distance and cost of delivery to and fro. And as it has been shared, the Australian trade agreement is heavily in the favor of Australia rather than in the UK. So UK will run deficits with Australia and no equal partnership.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4917
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:15 pm

A101 wrote:
pune wrote:
A101 wrote:

ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage


If it was so, then there would never be any shady suppliers anywhere in the world. In fact even known reputed manufacturers have been known to short-change customers throughout history -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/


It's also known if you continually send inferior products as the suggestion of rotting meat then don't be surprised that they source another supplier.

Goods are still checked when they reach its destination for quality assurance reasons when dealing with foodstuffs

As to your link you identify the end consumer not the corporation

As we know from Brexit it’s quite easy to sell rotten meat to those who are willing to be lied to. It’s so easy in fact that even once they have experienced the rotten meat they will be too proud to admit they have been duped and continue to claim that it was delicious.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
A101
Posts: 3795
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:17 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
A101 wrote:
pune wrote:

If it was so, then there would never be any shady suppliers anywhere in the world. In fact even known reputed manufacturers have been known to short-change customers throughout history -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/


It's also known if you continually send inferior products as the suggestion of rotting meat then don't be surprised that they source another supplier.

Goods are still checked when they reach its destination for quality assurance reasons when dealing with foodstuffs

As to your link you identify the end consumer not the corporation

As we know from Brexit it’s quite easy to sell rotten meat to those who are willing to be lied to. It’s so easy in fact that even once they have experienced the rotten meat they will be too proud to admit they have been duped and continue to claim that it was delicious.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Really and you know that as fact?
 
User avatar
Aesma
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:02 am

During COVID lockdown (the first one) I bought tons of stuff on Amazon, it turns out more than 5000€ were on Amazon UK despite me being in France, due to favorable prices.

Since then I've bought almost nothing from the UK, for Christmas I bought a 50€ thing that was only available there, ordered early December got it middle of January... And the sender lied about its value to avoid customs.
 
pune
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:26 am

Aesma wrote:
During COVID lockdown (the first one) I bought tons of stuff on Amazon, it turns out more than 5000€ were on Amazon UK despite me being in France, due to favorable prices.

Since then I've bought almost nothing from the UK, for Christmas I bought a 50€ thing that was only available there, ordered early December got it middle of January... And the sender lied about its value to avoid customs.


Beggars can't be choosers. Hence the sellers would have to resort to numerous underhand tactics in order to sell stuff. They would have to find myriad ways to get around customs procedures otherwise they have to shut shop. Even if in the process 'reputation' goes it doesn't matter, it is a matter of survival for those shopkeepers. I have read how tourism has been hit and how many shops have been closed due to not enough customers as well as staff.

They are even considering cancelling pensioner's retirement so that there can be some staff.
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:31 am

pune wrote:
Aesma wrote:
During COVID lockdown (the first one) I bought tons of stuff on Amazon, it turns out more than 5000€ were on Amazon UK despite me being in France, due to favorable prices.

Since then I've bought almost nothing from the UK, for Christmas I bought a 50€ thing that was only available there, ordered early December got it middle of January... And the sender lied about its value to avoid customs.


Beggars can't be choosers. Hence the sellers would have to resort to numerous underhand tactics in order to sell stuff. They would have to find myriad ways to get around customs procedures otherwise they have to shut shop. Even if in the process 'reputation' goes it doesn't matter, it is a matter of survival for those shopkeepers. I have read how tourism has been hit and how many shops have been closed due to not enough customers as well as staff.

They are even considering cancelling pensioner's retirement so that there can be some staff.


What do you mean by cancelling pensioners retirement?
 
pune
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:48 am

A101 wrote:
pune wrote:
Aesma wrote:
During COVID lockdown (the first one) I bought tons of stuff on Amazon, it turns out more than 5000€ were on Amazon UK despite me being in France, due to favorable prices.

Since then I've bought almost nothing from the UK, for Christmas I bought a 50€ thing that was only available there, ordered early December got it middle of January... And the sender lied about its value to avoid customs.


Beggars can't be choosers. Hence the sellers would have to resort to numerous underhand tactics in order to sell stuff. They would have to find myriad ways to get around customs procedures otherwise they have to shut shop. Even if in the process 'reputation' goes it doesn't matter, it is a matter of survival for those shopkeepers. I have read how tourism has been hit and how many shops have been closed due to not enough customers as well as staff.

They are even considering cancelling pensioner's retirement so that there can be some staff.


What do you mean by cancelling pensioners retirement?


Basically raising retirement age. With not too many options, that is the only way they can go. The other way is to do like what the Japanese have done, use bots more and more in daily life but after a fact they understood they need people, bots can take you only so far. And the Japanese is a much more closed society than the UK is, at least some parts. So officially, not too many choices, unofficially you may see more human trafficking happen for all kinds of things.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prop ... -increases

This was 5 years back, they might again do a shot upstairs, maybe well into the 70's.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:06 am

A101 wrote:
pune wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Sure the problem lies something else though: Products designed to stay in the EU and that are certified to EU standard are tested in regular as well as unannounced controls. Products that are designed for export to a country with no agreement that demands controls or standards can just be packed and shipped without question. You can throw what ever you want in the container and seal it. No one will bat an eye in the EU if its destined to a 3rd country.
If its destined for the EU at any point in the chain, from producer to seller it could be tested and checked. To 3rd countries the check would be at the border of said country when they unseal the container to check the freight and see if it is compliant and can be imported.


Basically it's UK headache whether it's ruined meat or illegal people being trafficked or anything worse.


ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage


Ah you are so cute. Sure that is exactly whats gonna happen and then they all sing songs together and pinky promise to never do such a bad thing ever again. Its not like the importer is in on it and shafts the UK citizens... buying premium meat for 30€ per kg or shady meat for 10€ per kg and then selling it on to the school cantina for 40€ per kg. And that happens with everything from dodgy car parts over foods to medicine. The moment there are no checks and there is money to make it will be exploited. No checks, no control and unfortunately trust is worth nothing in a free economy. And at the moment the UK economy is so "free" that you can sell them rotten meat and get away with it.

Heck the UK economy is so free and has absolutely no red tape to imports, that even the government can shaft its citizens and buy shady PPE or ferry contracts from companies without ferries.

So the good part is the UK opened up for EVERY kind of business while also closed itself off to do serious business. Now don't get me wrong, there are many that profit from it but it is not average John. Average John has to eat rotten meat and decide if he heats today or cooks his rotten meat.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4917
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:23 am

FluidFlow wrote:
A101 wrote:
pune wrote:

Basically it's UK headache whether it's ruined meat or illegal people being trafficked or anything worse.


ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage


Ah you are so cute. Sure that is exactly whats gonna happen and then they all sing songs together and pinky promise to never do such a bad thing ever again. Its not like the importer is in on it and shafts the UK citizens... buying premium meat for 30€ per kg or shady meat for 10€ per kg and then selling it on to the school cantina for 40€ per kg. And that happens with everything from dodgy car parts over foods to medicine. The moment there are no checks and there is money to make it will be exploited. No checks, no control and unfortunately trust is worth nothing in a free economy. And at the moment the UK economy is so "free" that you can sell them rotten meat and get away with it.

Heck the UK economy is so free and has absolutely no red tape to imports, that even the government can shaft its citizens and buy shady PPE or ferry contracts from companies without ferries.

So the good part is the UK opened up for EVERY kind of business while also closed itself off to do serious business. Now don't get me wrong, there are many that profit from it but it is not average John. Average John has to eat rotten meat and decide if he heats today or cooks his rotten meat.

We only need checks on the way out to make sure no one is stealing the unicorns!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 22182
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:45 am

flipdewaf wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
A101 wrote:

ultimately it will become the supplier's problem when no further orders are taken. i.e. reputational damage


Ah you are so cute. Sure that is exactly whats gonna happen and then they all sing songs together and pinky promise to never do such a bad thing ever again. Its not like the importer is in on it and shafts the UK citizens... buying premium meat for 30€ per kg or shady meat for 10€ per kg and then selling it on to the school cantina for 40€ per kg. And that happens with everything from dodgy car parts over foods to medicine. The moment there are no checks and there is money to make it will be exploited. No checks, no control and unfortunately trust is worth nothing in a free economy. And at the moment the UK economy is so "free" that you can sell them rotten meat and get away with it.

Heck the UK economy is so free and has absolutely no red tape to imports, that even the government can shaft its citizens and buy shady PPE or ferry contracts from companies without ferries.

So the good part is the UK opened up for EVERY kind of business while also closed itself off to do serious business. Now don't get me wrong, there are many that profit from it but it is not average John. Average John has to eat rotten meat and decide if he heats today or cooks his rotten meat.

We only need checks on the way out to make sure no one is stealing the unicorns!

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well somebody has because there hasn't been a sighting reported for, ooh, around three years. In fact they've become as rare as news items about the successes of Brexit.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:01 pm

Well in all fairness to A101, he did say earlier on that the benefit -to him- needn't be economic to make it worth.

it's everybody's right to be literally willing to PAY A PRICE for the idea of being a fully sovereign nation, whatever that may mean in the 21st century still.

Problem is, as the picture of the bus above demonstrates, the case for BREXIT wasn't presented along those lines by VOTE LEAVE at all, quite on the contrary even; the only cost that was ever being talked about by LEAVE was the cost of being part of the EU, not the clearly much much greater cost of no longer being in.
 
GDB
Posts: 17059
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:28 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Well in all fairness to A101, he did say earlier on that the benefit -to him- needn't be economic to make it worth.

it's everybody's right to be literally willing to PAY A PRICE for the idea of being a fully sovereign nation, whatever that may mean in the 21st century still.

Problem is, as the picture of the bus above demonstrates, the case for BREXIT wasn't presented along those lines by VOTE LEAVE at all, quite on the contrary even; the only cost that was ever being talked about by LEAVE was the cost of being part of the EU, not the clearly much much greater cost of no longer being in.


‘Fully sovereign’ whatever that means. We lost some when pitching to the US post war the idea that would become NATO.
But what we might have lost in one narrow reading of sovereignty we, the UK, gained in influence and not just in Washington.
But I don’t see Brexiteers advocating withdrawal from NATO.

They would say it’s not the same, my answer is how?
Both traded this one, limited interpretation of sovereignty for influence, with in the case of the EU, economic benefits too.
And despite decades of usually outright lies by the grubby British tabloid press, the influence was very real.

Many of the standards and ideas of recent decades in the EU were either pushed or backed by the UK, even or perhaps inevitably Thatcher, favoring the Single Market, yet Brexit types claim to be her heirs. The idea that she of all people and I was no fan, would accept such a downgrade of British influence, well that’s risible, whatever you thought of her, no way that would that be thought serious much less wise.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:59 pm

GDB wrote:
‘Fully sovereign’ whatever that means. We lost some when pitching to the US post war the idea that would become NATO.
But what we might have lost in one narrow reading of sovereignty we, the UK, gained in influence and not just in Washington.
But I don’t see Brexiteers advocating withdrawal from NATO.


In fact, ALL international agreements mean some loss of sovereignty, but there also is a gain. The argument was and still is a strange one to make. And indeed, it all plays out as was foreseen in 2016, including trade agreements that were less good than within the EU framework, troubles for the UK economy, troubles in Northern Ireland, troubles with Scotland etc. etc. etc. Even if the worst was diverted because of a minimal deal.

And the illegal immigrants keep on coming, last summer was the highest number of people yet.

But I must say, the EU did impress me alot, again the EU became more strong, and more united, so that is a real Brexit benefit. Just not a benefit for the UK.
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 639
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:13 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don’t think Brexit supporters understand (as it seems is typical with most things) that products coming into the UK from the EU are not checked, Jacob Rees Mogg said it’ll be too expensive if import checks comes into effect. There was a random lorry check late last year and they found out of 22 lorries 21 had rotted meats in them. Never checked.
Just think of all the others getting through, every day. It's also a happy time for organized crime and smuggling.

Real world example, not endlessly repeated rebuttals to endless nonsense from one source, those who bother to rebut, great but why bother?
To be fair, there would surely be no checks in the EU either so the rotten meat could have come in then, too?


That's something I still don't understand in detail but what I get reading here and there is that within SM they had protections and "retaliations" system in place, but once in a different regulation environment (out of SM) the importing country have responsability of what enters its market and can only complain against the purchaser within its zone, not the seller who can rightly sell whatever craps he wants to the one willin to pay for it. Happy to be educated if I'm talking nonsense there.

Also, talking about no checks from what's coming from EU market is fine, but there's something else I'm wondering and can't find clear answer : there is not only thing proceeding from EU that crosses the channel, there's also a lot of TIR sealed trucks. I mean a container imported by UK company in, let's say China, landing in Rotterdam before brexit was checked for entry in the SM in Rotterdam. It isn't anymore as it travels through EU as a sealed container and is checked when it enters in UK.... where exactly ?
And why would it be an evil foreigner trying to sell his non-conforming stuff in UK, why not UK chancers making money by buying dirt-cheap crap and selling it as "very good" ?
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:00 pm

GDB wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Well in all fairness to A101, he did say earlier on that the benefit -to him- needn't be economic to make it worth.
it's everybody's right to be literally willing to PAY A PRICE for the idea of being a fully sovereign nation, whatever that may mean in the 21st century still.
Problem is, as the picture of the bus above demonstrates, the case for BREXIT wasn't presented along those lines by VOTE LEAVE at all, quite on the contrary even; the only cost that was ever being talked about by LEAVE was the cost of being part of the EU, not the clearly much much greater cost of no longer being in.

‘Fully sovereign’ whatever that means. We lost some when pitching to the US post war the idea that would become NATO.
But what we might have lost in one narrow reading of sovereignty we, the UK, gained in influence and not just in Washington.
But I don’t see Brexiteers advocating withdrawal from NATO.
They would say it’s not the same, my answer is how?
Both traded this one, limited interpretation of sovereignty for influence, with in the case of the EU, economic benefits too.

No why would we?
Under NATO we have not lost independence or ceded sovereignty that make decisions on our behalf unlike the powers of the European Commission.
NATO cannot make decisions on its own all member nations have to agree, there is no voting decisions are made by consensus. No decision may be made by NATO against the will of one of its members
GDB wrote:
And despite decades of usually outright lies by the grubby British tabloid press, the influence was very real.

Don’t think anyone disagrees about having influence, but that’s not the same as no decision can be made against the will of the UKGov.
GDB wrote:
Many of the standards and ideas of recent decades in the EU were either pushed or backed by the UK,

Many but not all


GDB wrote:
even or perhaps inevitably Thatcher, favoring the Single Market, yet Brexit types claim to be her heirs.
The idea that she of all people and I was no fan, would accept such a downgrade of British influence, well that’s risible, whatever you thought of her, no way that would that be thought serious much less wise.

Yes Thatcher was a believer of the SM but she was far from a believer of a ever closer union hence her opposition to Maastricht Treaty.
Also Thatcher made concessions to achieve the SM it was not her belief that it be a binding treaty but more of an agreement.
This is more than evident by her comments regarding European integration “We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level”
 
Toenga
Posts: 438
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Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:59 am

OK,
From an economic point of view, Brexit was a mistake. For the majority of UK inhabitants, they have been subjected to a bigger decline in living standards, healthcare availability, educational opportunity, then had they remained a member of the EU.
This can most easily be verified by comparing UK performance with its immediate neighbours on mainland Europe.

But for some, apparently, they think the gain of the nebulous, other benifits of removing freedom of movement, and another layer in their governance more then compensates. We can only speculate on their motives and belief structures.
But does seem a very entrenched, but unspoken, view there, that a leader should be an upper class, white Englishman. (Or at least, someone closely resembling one)

Post Brexit, Britain now, must face up to the consequences of it's own failings, as it's opportunities for diverting blame elsewhere have declined.

Rejoining is not an option available in any short term. Whilst the UK would have to initiate the process, the decision lies entirely with gaining unanimous approval from the 27 EU member countries, and subject to whatever conditions they like to impose.

With the recent history of UK destructive membership of the EU, the chances of any of the previous UK especially favourable terms being reinstated must be extraordinarily unlikely. So a UK without pounds and pence? That would be a challenge.

But very concerningly, where is progress now towards a more economically sustainable UK?
Changing PMs and cabinet every few months is a symptom of the currently directionless Britain.

How is Britain going to at least reverse its comparitive decline? Decline in living standards and international standing. Comparitive to its peer countries.

Bonfires of regulations is not a plan, it is simply more destruction. The enormously destructive GFC had two epicentres, one of which was London.
And it was the result of inadequate regulation. So given this history, relaxing regulation here, will not endear the UK to much of the rest of the world. Much the same as effectively moving out of the CE product certification regimes has introduced an unwelcomed trade impediment.

Joining the remote CPTPP smacks more of despiration then any meaningful lifeline. It will be a benifit, but very modest compared to what it gave up with the EU.

If lowering taxes automatically led to raising living standards then the high tax, high benifit, Nordic and North European social democracies would not be top of the tables for living standards and functional democracies.

It is how well the peasants are looked after, not how well their Lords are, that achieves progress. Just look at China post WW2, until recently that is, and the decline in the same period in so many South American countries.

The debate of whether Brexit was a mistake or not, is far less important then the debate that should be happening now, but largely isn't
Where now, and how, for Britain?
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:26 am

pune wrote:
A101 wrote:
pune wrote:
Beggars can't be choosers. Hence the sellers would have to resort to numerous underhand tactics in order to sell stuff. They would have to find myriad ways to get around customs procedures otherwise they have to shut shop. Even if in the process 'reputation' goes it doesn't matter, it is a matter of survival for those shopkeepers. I have read how tourism has been hit and how many shops have been closed due to not enough customers as well as staff.
They are even considering cancelling pensioner's retirement so that there can be some staff.

What do you mean by cancelling pensioners retirement?


Basically raising retirement age. With not too many options, that is the only way they can go. The other way is to do like what the Japanese have done, use bots more and more in daily life but after a fact they understood they need people, bots can take you only so far. And the Japanese is a much more closed society than the UK is, at least some parts. So officially, not too many choices, unofficially you may see more human trafficking happen for all kinds of things.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prop ... -increases
This was 5 years back, they might again do a shot upstairs, maybe well into the 70's.


That relates to an ageing population and is about the ability of future governments to pay government pensions in the future. Pensions are paid by the taxpayers out of budgets now. It is projected under the current law the increase to the aged pension is to begin in the years between 2044 and 2046 when its is projected that the amount of people claiming the aged pension will put increased strain on future budgets. I believe the current government is considering bring that forward to start in 2035

This might be the impetus to start a UK sovereign wealth fund that a number of nations have, Norway has the largest in the world from what I have read in the past and is used for 3 main purposes.


Norway’s sovereign wealth fund is the biggest in the world, owning 1.4 per cent of global stocks and shares with a value of almost a quarter of a million dollars per citizen. It has three main purposes, first, it shield’s the Norwegian economy from changes in oil prices, second, it acts as a pension fund for the nation, and third, it is used to boost the economy during difficult times.


https://www.1828.org.uk/2021/08/05/brit ... er-before/
 
A101
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:36 am

Toenga wrote:
From an economic point of view, Brexit was a mistake. For the majority of UK inhabitants, they have been subjected to a bigger decline in living standards, healthcare availability, educational opportunity, then had they remained a member of the EU.
This can most easily be verified by comparing UK performance with its immediate neighbours on mainland Europe.
But for some, apparently, they think the gain of the nebulous, other benifits of removing freedom of movement, and another layer in their governance more then compensates. We can only speculate on their motives and belief structures.


This comes back to what I was saying before, benefits of Brexit are subjective to different people. You point out what you view and think that economically Brexit was a mistake, where as I take a different view that I knew that the UK economy will fluctuate for good and bad overtime but the UK economy it is fairly resilient. We saw over this even when we were in the EU and over many different economies across the member nations and over many years and how EC decisions can create good and bad outcomes for individual member nations.
Toenga wrote:
Post Brexit, Britain now, must face up to the consequences of it's own failings, as it's opportunities for diverting blame elsewhere have declined.

And that is rather the point, no government is infallible people would like to think they are but they are not hence why we have different political parties with different viewpoints. The electorate now has that opportunity to directly hold those accountable as it goes no higher than Westminster.

We have had two general elections since the Brexit vote, the first gave a vote of no confidence how Theresa May was conducting negotiations which ultimately returned her with a reduced majority, then Boris Johnson overwhelming majority in the face of concerted attacks from the pro remain elements in government.

The next election will determine if they believe the current government has used its new returned powers to the advantage of the UK and if they are capable of turning it around. For that time will tell.

Toenga wrote:
Rejoining is not an option available in any short term. Whilst the UK would have to initiate the process, the decision lies entirely with gaining unanimous approval from the 27 EU member countries, and subject to whatever conditions they like to impose.
With the recent history of UK destructive membership of the EU, the chances of any of the previous UK especially favourable terms being reinstated must be extraordinarily unlikely. So a UK without pounds and pence? That would be a challenge.

You forgot the most important element the UK electorate and any future referenda along with the campaign. I certainly don’t think it would be a straight forward and easy campaign to re-join either. And I don’t think using the economic argument is any silver bullet for the re-join movement either.

Toenga wrote:
But very concerningly, where is progress now towards a more economically sustainable UK?
Changing PMs and cabinet every few months is a symptom of the currently directionless Britain.

I think that episode is now over until the election. Something massive would have to happen for another change in PM, But I suspect a cabinet reshuffle could happen between now and then

Toenga wrote:
How is Britain going to at least reverse its comparitive decline? Decline in living standards and international standing. Comparitive to its peer countries.

I don’t believe we are in a terminal situation something are within government action and others are beyond their control. But some of the forecasts by international institutions do have an effect of consumer and business confidence which can turn into self-fulfilled prophecies, after all when you look at the IMF projects over the last few years they turned out to be wrong.

Toenga wrote:
Bonfires of regulations is not a plan, it is simply more destruction. The enormously destructive GFC had two epicentres, one of which was London.
And it was the result of inadequate regulation. So given this history, relaxing regulation here, will not endear the UK to much of the rest of the world. Much the same as effectively moving out of the CE product certification regimes has introduced an unwelcomed trade impediment.

This I agree with to a degree, there is no point in just ditching retained EU law just for the sake of it. By all means change if something is not working or it could be made better by adding regulations. But just getting rid of it wholesale no I agree with you.

Toenga wrote:
Joining the remote CPTPP smacks more of despiration then any meaningful lifeline. It will be a benifit, but very modest compared to what it gave up with the EU.

No not really I think it offers other increased opportunities that otherwise would not be open to the UK no matter how big or small
Toenga wrote:
If lowering taxes automatically led to raising living standards then the high tax, high benifit, Nordic and North European social democracies would not be top of the tables for living standards and functional democracies.

What works in one nation does not mean it will work in another. The UK used to have extremely high taxation margin and it has been shown in the past reducing them does have a benefit to the local economy
Toenga wrote:
The debate of whether Brexit was a mistake or not, is far less important then the debate that should be happening now, but largely isn't
Where now, and how, for Britain?

I think the closer we get to the next election will bring that to the fore. Then the majority of silent electorate will have their say.
 
marcelh
Posts: 2400
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: BREXIT - Three years on

Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:08 am

If Brexit would have been a succes, other EU members would have left the as well for their one benefit.

My € 0.02

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