I found myself a little disturbed by the pictures of this piece.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-64770716

I understand that I look at this from a different culture POV but it does seem harsh.The jail will eventually hold more than 40,000 people.
The mega-prison - in Tecoluca, 74 kilometers (46 miles) southeast of the capital San Salvador - comprises eight buildings. Each has 32 cells of about 100 square meters (1,075 square feet) to hold "more than 100" prisoners, the government says.

The cells only have two sinks and two toilets each to 100 prisoners

They are not there to be re-habiliated, just containment, and no, I am no bleeding heart liberal.

Seems inadvisable to have that many prisoners in one place, when many of them are going to have common gang and cartel affiliations.

Good. And throw away the keys. I hope these inmates and criminals never see the light of day again.

mesasurf wrote:

Good. And throw away the keys. I hope these inmates and criminals never see the light of day again.

There's certainly no record of anyone ever carrying on their criminal activities from inside overcrowded, poorly supervised prisons...

Newark727 wrote:

mesasurf wrote:

Good. And throw away the keys. I hope these inmates and criminals never see the light of day again.

There's certainly no record of anyone ever carrying on their criminal activities from inside overcrowded, poorly supervised prisons...

So you’re supporting these criminals and would rather see them on the streets?

mesasurf wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

mesasurf wrote:

Good. And throw away the keys. I hope these inmates and criminals never see the light of day again.

There's certainly no record of anyone ever carrying on their criminal activities from inside overcrowded, poorly supervised prisons...

So you’re supporting these criminals and would rather see them on the streets?

Yes, obviously I am.

Newark727 wrote:

mesasurf wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

There's certainly no record of anyone ever carrying on their criminal activities from inside overcrowded, poorly supervised prisons...

So you’re supporting these criminals and would rather see them on the streets?

Yes, obviously I am.

Obviously.

mesasurf wrote:

Good. And throw away the keys. I hope these inmates and criminals never see the light of day again.

There is literally no information on the inmates and/or what crimes they committed. I'm pretty sure the OP's point was "does it seem smart to treat criminals like animals...maybe they will just end up acting like animals..."

Remarkable photos, for many of them maybe they would be defined as subhuman, others not so much. I wonder how many would slit my throat with out blinking. My guess more would then wouldn’t, just no way of knowing. It’s stark illustration of so many things gone wrong in their society. Sad to be witness to in my opinion.

mesasurf wrote:

Obviously.

"Build a really big jail and throw all the criminals in it for ever" is exactly the sort of big symbolic gesture that would have impressed me - when I was eight years old. No, any idiot can do that. The hard part is in actually running the thing - but people like you don't care about that, you just clap like seals at any "law and order!" gesture from your caudillo of choice. Personally, I'd hate to see what prison riots look like when there's 40,000 inmates and 100 to a room.

Newark727 wrote:

"Build a really big jail and throw all the criminals in it for ever" is exactly the sort of big symbolic gesture that would have impressed me - when I was eight years old. No, any idiot can do that. The hard part is in actually running the thing - but people like you don't care about that, you just clap like seals at any "law and order!" gesture from your caudillo of choice. Personally, I'd hate to see what prison riots look like when there's 40,000 inmates and 100 to a room.

I suggest that you bone up on the subject matter - you might come to different priorities. Take a trip to Central America, and I don't mean one organized by an upscale travel agency. Go by car or camper, so that you are a little closer to the people. El Salvador is probably milk toast these days, so you might have to take a trip to Honduras (be careful of the Guatemalan cops as you pass through there) stop off in San Pedro Sula and hang out a few days, and be sure to read the local newspapers, they always have interesting stories. Then you might want to take a drive down to La Ceiba, and hang a right and visit the people who live up in those mountains - they'll be glad to see you.

From there if you're really feeling bold, you could drive down to Nicaragua and meet some of the local people (I chickened out on that one) most of the people in the rest of Central America want nothing to do with Nicagagua.

I hope you enjoy your discussion with the version of me that exists only in your imagination. I have no interest in defending positions I've never actually expressed.

Newark727 wrote:

I hope you enjoy your discussion with the version of me that exists only in your imagination. I have no interest in defending positions I've never actually expressed.

Sorry if I got the wrong idea that you opposed this military crackdown, your eight year old remark did leave that impression.

I would imagine that if a riot broke out in any of those pods or sections of the prison the guards would just see it as a good time to take a smoke break or do some paper work while the prison population diminishes itself.

How do you distinguish between the two ?

@Vintage it seems the "crackdown" also means you can tell tales on your neighbours and they end up being tortured in jail for no reason : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-63793652

Aesma wrote:

How do you distinguish between the two ?

@Vintage it seems the "crackdown" also means you can tell tales on your neighbours and they end up being tortured in jail for no reason : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-63793652

Where were your cries for justice when MS-13 was running the streets of El Salvador?
I offer you the same advice as above.
Go there and check it out.

Well I'm sure the innocent put in jail or worse (same as in the Philippines) will think the government is better than the gangs...

Aesma wrote:

Well I'm sure the innocent put in jail or worse (same as in the Philippines) will think the government is better than the gangs...

It's easy to pontificate about justice from your easy chair.
Go there and check it out.

Vintage wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Well I'm sure the innocent put in jail or worse (same as in the Philippines) will think the government is better than the gangs...

It's easy to pontificate about justice from your easy chair.
Go there and check it out.

Assuming you're not posting from El Salvador yourself, are you not doing the very same thing right now? Aesma isn't the one being victimized by the gangs, but you're not the one getting arrested either.

Newark727 wrote:

Vintage wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Well I'm sure the innocent put in jail or worse (same as in the Philippines) will think the government is better than the gangs...

It's easy to pontificate about justice from your easy chair.
Go there and check it out.

Assuming you're not posting from El Salvador yourself, are you not doing the very same thing right now? You're not the one getting arrested either.

I've been there. I've seen it. Honduras too. Where I live 2,500 miles away from El Salvador, the MS-13 clowns are killing people here for thrills too (they call it gang initiation).

Vintage wrote:

I've been there. I've seen it. Honduras too. Where I live 2,500 miles away from El Salvador, the MS-13 clowns are killing people here for thrills too (they call it gang initiation).

From Aesma's article:

Marta, an 18-year-old psychology student, was not so fortunate. Her father Oscar says that Marta - not her real name - was taken her from her home after the police tried to force her to name a gang member.

As she did not know any gang members and was not prepared to falsely accuse anyone, they simply arrested her instead, Oscar says.

"In late December she'll have been in prison for six months. They arrested her for illicit association. But they provided no proof, no evidence at all."

Oscar's attempts to secure his daughter's release - providing evidence of her enrolment in university and testimony from her church group as to her good character - have so far fallen on deaf ears.

And now Marta, like thousands of other prisoners, is facing a further six months in legal limbo as the state of exception is to be extended again this year.

Don't worry Marta, someone living 2,500 miles away thinks it's worth it! Is it really too much to ask to hold the government of a sovereign nation state to somewhat higher standards of behavior than MS-13? I don't think so.

I mean if you're tattooed from head to toe it's one thing (although according to my article long retired gang members are also targeted), but a 18yo girl ?

While it is not perfect (no system is) why treat prisoners worse than animals?

https://pulitzercenter.org/projects/fin ... %20working.

seb146 wrote:

While it is not perfect (no system is) why treat prisoners worse than animals?

https://pulitzercenter.org/projects/fin ... %20working.

That's a whole other subject. Latin America developed its cultural norms during the 500 years of Spanish rule (with the complete cooperation of the church) they have made little recovery from all that IMO.

One thing I learned in Honduras is that the government there feels under no obligation to feed the prisoners, if you're in the slammer there and have no one on the outside to arrange food for you, you then become a slave of anyone who is willing to give you food - or you can starve, nobody will care. You can see videos on You Tube from prisons in Mexico they're not so pretty either.

Vintage wrote:

seb146 wrote:

While it is not perfect (no system is) why treat prisoners worse than animals?

https://pulitzercenter.org/projects/fin ... %20working.

That's a whole other subject. Latin America developed its cultural norms during the 500 years of Spanish rule (with the complete cooperation of the church) they have made little recovery from all that IMO.

One thing I learned in Honduras is that the government there feels under no obligation to feed the prisoners, if you're in the slammer there and have no one on the outside to arrange food for you, you then become a slave of anyone who is willing to give you food - or you can starve, nobody will care. You can see videos on You Tube from prisons in Mexico they're not so pretty either.

Right. So, give those in prison a reason to be. Food and education and earn a way out instead of just a cycle of being in prison. No, it is not perfect. Broken people will not be fixed when they can not trust it.

But, a violent military backed government has nothing to lose.

Vintage wrote:

That's a whole other subject. Latin America developed its cultural norms during the 500 years of Spanish rule (with the complete cooperation of the church) they have made little recovery from all that IMO.

And they won't, if all that ever happens is arbitrary and indiscriminate arrests. Do you really think that the crackdown in El Salvador is the first time something like this has been tried in that part of the world? Of course not.

Vintage wrote:

One thing I learned in Honduras is that the government there feels under no obligation to feed the prisoners, if you're in the slammer there and have no one on the outside to arrange food for you, you then become a slave of anyone who is willing to give you food - or you can starve, nobody will care.

Sounds like a great way for gangs to keep on perpetuating their influence within the prison system.

Newark727 wrote:

Vintage wrote:

That's a whole other subject. Latin America developed its cultural norms during the 500 years of Spanish rule (with the complete cooperation of the church) they have made little recovery from all that IMO.

And they won't, if all that ever happens is arbitrary and indiscriminate arrests. Do you really think that the crackdown in El Salvador is the first time something like this has been tried in that part of the world? Of course not.

Vintage wrote:

One thing I learned in Honduras is that the government there feels under no obligation to feed the prisoners, if you're in the slammer there and have no one on the outside to arrange food for you, you then become a slave of anyone who is willing to give you food - or you can starve, nobody will care.

Sounds like a great way for gangs to keep on perpetuating their influence within the prison system.

You really are in need of a trip to Latin America and not Club Med.

Awful easy to trade liberty for security when it's neither your liberty nor your security on the line. But ask yourself why some places seem to make that trade again and again but never get any safer?

Newark727 wrote:

Awful easy to trade liberty for security when it's neither your liberty nor your security on the line. But ask yourself why some places seem to make that trade again and again but never get any safer?

El Salvador's murder rate is WAY down since they started rounding up MS-13.

I can fault the process but the need to absolutely change things and wrench control from the gangs in El Salvador.

As to those who claim innocents are being unfairly incarcerated, I will remind you that EVER nation, including those the claim to have protections, even those nations have innocents that are found guilty and incarcerated.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

As to those who claim innocents are being unfairly incarcerated, I will remind you that EVER nation, including those the claim to have protections, even those nations have innocents that are found guilty and incarcerated.

Tugg

Which is a key reason why prisoners deserve humane treatment.

The other being that, well, all inmates are still human even if they were rightfully convicted. Countries that deny basic human rights to convicts generally aren't known for caring much about rights in other places either. Although supervision does become somewhat easier when you concentrate all your prisoners into one place.

It seems that people are conflating two separate issues: Latin American prison conditions and the crackdown on MS-13 by El Salvador.

Maybe it's a good thing that some people are being made aware of what has been going on down south for the last 500 years (only 300 of them under Spanish rule).

mxaxai wrote:

Tugger wrote:

As to those who claim innocents are being unfairly incarcerated, I will remind you that EVER nation, including those the claim to have protections, even those nations have innocents that are found guilty and incarcerated.

Tugg

Which is a key reason why prisoners deserve humane treatment.

The other being that, well, all inmates are still human even if they were rightfully convicted. Countries that deny basic human rights to convicts generally aren't known for caring much about rights in other places either. Although supervision does become somewhat easier when you concentrate all your prisoners into one place.

Good point.

During World War 2 the Germans put all their 'bad boy' prisoners in one camp.

Not sure that was a smart move either.

Within this prison will they mix gangs and cartels risking riots or will each gang/cartel have their own sub prison?.

Newark727 wrote:

Don't worry Marta, someone living 2,500 miles away thinks it's worth it! Is it really too much to ask to hold the government of a sovereign nation state to somewhat higher standards of behavior than MS-13? I don't think so.

Yes I think it's worth it, last year in the town next to mine two 15 year olds were stabbed, one of them died the other lived because he played dead. The killers were three teenagers two of whom were going to the same high school as the kid that they killed; they were doing a MS-13 gang initiation deed. But this tale doesn't even expose the tip of the iceberg, there have been thousands of murders committed by MS-13 all over the United States. There have been multiple MS-13 killings in Canada: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/03/19/ ... -of-4-men/. What these clowns have done in Latin America would be beyond belief to an American living a sheltered life.

I have about zero respect for the government, police or military of El Salvador, but this is one thing they got right.

As for Marta, she is right where she belongs. I'm an elderly balding white guy in upper middle class northern California, but if the cops came to me I could give them the name of at least one MS-13 wannabe (a relative of neighbors). This 18 yo who is living in ground zero gangland (and who came to the cop's attention) claimed that she didn't know any gang members!
LOL That doesn't come close to passing the smell test - for those cops or for me. She is the same as a mafia wife, or a crip's girlfriend or any other gangbanger girl. She's not just part of the problem, she is the problem.

And the cops handled those two brothers perfectly IMO. They were wannabes, the kind who hang out with the gang types and do them favors etc.
The cops threw them in the cage with their buddies and kept them there a few months.
LOL

Vintage wrote:

It seems that people are conflating two separate issues: Latin American prison conditions and the crackdown on MS-13 by El Salvador.

Maybe it's a good thing that some people are being made aware of what has been going on down south for the last 500 years (only 300 of them under Spanish rule).

So maybe put MS-13 members in one prison and other law breakers in a more humane prison?

seb146 wrote:

Vintage wrote:

It seems that people are conflating two separate issues: Latin American prison conditions and the crackdown on MS-13 by El Salvador.

Maybe it's a good thing that some people are being made aware of what has been going on down south for the last 500 years (only 300 of them under Spanish rule).

So maybe put MS-13 members in one prison and other law breakers in a more humane prison?

All Latin American prisons are pretty much the same afik. Maybe some of the Mexican ones are a little better. These prisoners may be lucky if they're being fed; in Honduran prisons the government doesn't even feed the prisoners (I've heard this from multiple sources in Honduras including one guy that I know served time in a Honduran prison).

Vintage wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Vintage wrote:

It seems that people are conflating two separate issues: Latin American prison conditions and the crackdown on MS-13 by El Salvador.

Maybe it's a good thing that some people are being made aware of what has been going on down south for the last 500 years (only 300 of them under Spanish rule).

So maybe put MS-13 members in one prison and other law breakers in a more humane prison?

All Latin American prisons are pretty much the same afik. Maybe some of the Mexican ones are a little better. These prisoners may be lucky if they're being fed; in Honduran prisons the government doesn't even feed the prisoners (I've heard this from multiple sources in Honduras including one guy that I know served time in a Honduran prison).

And the gangs and cartels are brutal. I get that. But why should a first time offender for, say, shoplifting be treated the same as a gang or cartel member? A crime is a crime, but if someone has the chance to be rehabilitated and get a way out of that life, why not give them that choice?

seb146 wrote:

why should a first time offender for, say, shoplifting be treated the same as a gang or cartel member? A crime is a crime, but if someone has the chance to be rehabilitated and get a way out of that life, why not give them that choice?

There is a complete failure to understand Latin American culture here. I doubt if any Latin American government would take any action in the case of shoplifting; I suspect that they would leave that to local action from the store owner or citizenry. And big stores (or pharmacies or banks) will always have their own armed guards on hand (in Mexico they'll have shotguns; in Central America, where they take things more seriously, they'll have assault rifles). For minor infractions like these, local cops would most likely just beat the (insert appropriate word) out of the perp.

Vintage wrote:

seb146 wrote:

why should a first time offender for, say, shoplifting be treated the same as a gang or cartel member? A crime is a crime, but if someone has the chance to be rehabilitated and get a way out of that life, why not give them that choice?

There is a complete failure to understand Latin American culture here. I doubt if any Latin American government would take any action in the case of shoplifting; I suspect that they would leave that to local action from the store owner or citizenry. And big stores (or pharmacies or banks) will always have their own armed guards on hand (in Mexico they'll have shotguns; in Central America, where they take things more seriously, they'll have assault rifles). For minor infractions like these, local cops would most likely just beat the (insert appropriate word) out of the perp.

I forgot to add that after they beat up the shoplifter, the cops would be back at the store demanding a payoff for all the hard work they just did - so that would explain why a shopkeeper wouldn't call the cops for shoplifting.

El Salvador had to create a new prison as part of a massive crackdown on criminal gangs in the country who have killed many 1000's and had taken economic control of the country. They had run out of room in existing prisons. Civil rights have been suspended to arrest many. Now the country will have 2% of its population in jail, the highest rate in the world and from the crackdown, the murder rate has dropped substantially. https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ ... 023-02-01/
Of course, there are very serious violations of civil and international human rights of those incarcerated.at this and other of the country's jails. This is likely to lead to a disaster and 100's, especially guards, killed.

ltbewr wrote:

This is likely to lead to a disaster and 100's, especially guards, killed.

That does not seem likely as a result of the actions that have been taken. They have already moved 2,000 prisoners into the new prison where they will be very secure, I assume that this has already taken pressure off the weakest place(s) in their jail system. The weak points right now have to be the various old jails that are overcrowded at the current moment. Once the new jail is filled up I would assume that these people have built the place in a way that gives the guards the advantage. I doubt that guards will ever personally enter the living spaces of the prisoners. Latin American prisons don't have a lot of amenities, they are not like American prisons where everybody gets time in the yard every day. They are always on 'lockdown'.

You can view some Mexican prisons on You Tube if you want to get an idea of the norm for living conditions.

Looks like a massive and beautiful facility and evidently completed both ahead of schedule and under budget. Congratulations to all who accomplished this.

Vintage wrote:

Vintage wrote:

seb146 wrote:

why should a first time offender for, say, shoplifting be treated the same as a gang or cartel member? A crime is a crime, but if someone has the chance to be rehabilitated and get a way out of that life, why not give them that choice?

There is a complete failure to understand Latin American culture here. I doubt if any Latin American government would take any action in the case of shoplifting; I suspect that they would leave that to local action from the store owner or citizenry. And big stores (or pharmacies or banks) will always have their own armed guards on hand (in Mexico they'll have shotguns; in Central America, where they take things more seriously, they'll have assault rifles). For minor infractions like these, local cops would most likely just beat the (insert appropriate word) out of the perp.

I forgot to add that after they beat up the shoplifter, the cops would be back at the store demanding a payoff for all the hard work they just did - so that would explain why a shopkeeper wouldn't call the cops for shoplifting.

So explain the crime rates being low in Costa Rica? I get the whole Stanford Experiment is going on in El Salvador and Guatemala and Honduras and, to some extent, Mexico. Maybe instead of treating these countries like savages and teaching them they are humans... no, that will never work.

I will note, they have built a prison, and not a guillotine or hangman's platform or gas chamber.

Tugg

seb146 wrote:

So explain the crime rates being low in Costa Rica? I get the whole Stanford Experiment is going on in El Salvador and Guatemala and Honduras and, to some extent, Mexico. Maybe instead of treating these countries like savages and teaching them they are humans... no, that will never work.

Costa Rica is a whole different ball game, it is the country which decided it didn't need an army and disbanded the one they had. We should all probably study them to see how they got it so right when all their neighbors got it so wrong, but I really don't know very much about them. I never made it there, I chickened out of crossing through Nicaragua.

Who do you think is "treating these countries like savages"? The only ones who did that that I know of were the Spanish for 300 years; for the last 200 years they have been doing it to themselves (with the help of the church of course). The Spaniards created their culture of corruption and exploitation.

Tugger wrote:

I will note, they have built a prison, and not a guillotine or hangman's platform or gas chamber.

Tugg

Good point. The criminals in prison in El Salvador might have it tough but it could be worse. El Salvador prison is paradise compared to being shot in China, hung in Iran, or having their heads chopped off in Saudi Arabia.

IPFreely wrote:

Good point. The criminals in prison in El Salvador might have it tough but it could be worse. El Salvador prison is paradise compared to being shot in China, hung in Iran, or having their heads chopped off in Saudi Arabia.

The murder rate inside that prison would be horrendous. No doubt the torture, violence, beatings and even worse abuses garnered by gathering so many rival gang members in just one place will just make these places recruiting centres for gang members. Unless every single prisoner is serving life imprisonment without parole eventually they will be released, and put the criminal skills and contacts they made in prison to good use on the streets.

Being 'tough on crime' doesn't solve things. Scandanavian nations which use rehabilition and compassionate care to ensure released prisoners don't reoffend have the lowest recidivism rates in the world. It's a proven fact. All these 'tough on crime' measures do is provide new recruits for gangs.

Apparently the Salvadorian President who's responsible for this 'tough on crime' policy has bribed certain gangs to stop committing murders during election periods in order to make it appear his "tough on crime" crackdown was working:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... sanctions/

Or his plan to basically round up gang members and imprison them without charge is limited to certain gangs, and the ones untouched peacefully take over the weakened gang's turf. Either way it's very corrupt, and a bit of a sham policy.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

Being 'tough on crime' doesn't solve things. Scandanavian nations which use rehabilition and compassionate care to ensure released prisoners don't reoffend have the lowest recidivism rates in the world. It's a proven fact. All these 'tough on crime' measures do is provide new recruits for gangs.

No comparison can be made between Scandinavian society and Latin American culture. It is as if they are from different planets.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

Apparently the Salvadorian President who's responsible for this 'tough on crime' policy has bribed certain gangs to stop committing murders during election periods in order to make it appear his "tough on crime" crackdown was working:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... sanctions/
Or his plan to basically round up gang members and imprison them without charge is limited to certain gangs, and the ones untouched peacefully take over the weakened gang's turf. Either way it's very corrupt, and a bit of a sham policy.

Now you have your finger on the root problem that spurred the creation of these gangs. The absolutely corrupt and exploitative culture that was created by the Spanish and continued almost unchanged after the 'revolutions' that ousted the Spanish. El Salvador is a dogs breakfast.

What I wonder is whta's gonna happen when they get out? unless they are all serving life sentence they are likely to get out some day. Now that's gonna make The Purge look like a Muppets movie.

It's a start.