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cumulonimbus
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:13 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:51 pm

With the treatment of a certain respected mod, glitches and amoung other things is anyone considering leaving A.net? I have been posting on this site sporadicly for quite awhile, was here when it was first made when I was in collage, left it a bit then came back. I remember Free Chat all the way to this huge site to where you had to pay to be a member allowing Johan to support himself and make improvements to the site as time went on and I have seen alot over the years. I have met alot of real life friends here such as USairways16bwi, I have seen many fools as well as some of the smartest people I know such as YYZ717 shupirate1 and leskova. I have had run ins with mods and at the time did not agree with them but they always treated me fair, seen some of the funniest, stupidest and some posts that really made me think. Saw grown men act like children but at the end of the day they would drink together given the chance. I thank Johan for making this all possible and letting me experiance it. Then DM came and I see how they treat this site and the people here. Long time members who were the core of this site were treated as if they were nothing. I really can not bear to see it anymore so now I may leave this site for good. I know many of you may want to think I am doing this for attention or whatever, I know I have not contributed as much as some, I know I can be strange at times but it is sad that I feel I have to. I can not stand to see where this site is heading. I am not leaving yet but was just wondering if any feel the same as I.

Regards, Mike
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:58 pm

Yes, just need a place to go. I am thoroughly disgusted as to how they are running this site. If we can all agree on a new site to "hang out" I am with you. It is sad what DM has done to this site. Its like taking a Ferrari and running it into the ground. Disgusting.




Don't expect this thread to last long.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:03 pm

I give this thread an hour before it's locked or deleted. But while it lasts...

Yes, I have considered leaving over the craziness of the last 6 months. The fact remains though that there is nowhere else that I have found that has the same sense of community as a.net. Frankly the idea that DM are getting $5 of my money each month isn't exactly heart warming, and I'd much rather take that $5 somewhere else...the pub perhaps...but the truth of the matter is that I've made some great friends on a.net and that's not going to change. There's nowhere else like it - not Mendis's site, not Ted's site, not Coz's site, and certainly not any of the other aviation sites.

Unfortunately, this also means that our hands are tied. DM can and will do whatever they want with the site; fire mods, change designs, ignore users, etc., and most of us are going to stick around simply because of the relationships that we've built up. It sucks, and I do agree with you that a.net is heading down the crapper since it's now run by people who's primary objective is to make as much money as possible rather than for the love of aviation, but that's the reality of the situation and it isn't going to change any time soon.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
747438
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:05 pm

The site is no longer a hobby site. It is now a business and therefore by definition, the focus will not be on the users, but profits.
 
cumulonimbus
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:13 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:07 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 2):
Yes, I have considered leaving over the craziness of the last 6 months. The fact remains though that there is nowhere else that I have found that has the same sense of community as a.net. Frankly the idea that DM are getting $5 of my money each month isn't exactly heart warming, and I'd much rather take that $5 somewhere else...the pub perhaps...but the truth of the matter is that I've made some great friends on a.net and that's not going to change. There's nowhere else like it - not Mendis's site, not Ted's site, not Coz's site, and certainly not any of the other aviation sites.

Unfortunately, this also means that our hands are tied. DM can and will do whatever they want with the site; fire mods, change designs, ignore users, etc., and most of us are going to stick around simply because of the relationships that we've built up. It sucks, and I do agree with you that a.net is heading down the crapper since it's now run by people who's primary objective is to make as much money as possible rather than for the love of aviation, but that's the reality of the situation and it isn't going to change any time soon.

And that is my dilema and the only reason I stick around. Spot on.
 
Fiatstilojtd
Posts: 870
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:59 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:15 pm

Hi Cumulonimbus,

long time no chat....no wonder it is broken since months  Yeah sure . This thread is spot on....just for information for the "young members": I already left airliners.net once a few years ago because Civ AV etc. became a Kindergarten with armchair-ceo's but rejoined after ANCFlyer became a mod.

Reference: Reply 59 in this thread.
Welcome Our New Moderators (by Moderators Dec 12 2006 in Site Related)

And btw. Cumulonimbus you have still not add me to your RR-List as promised 4 years ago  Wink Big grin.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:16 pm



Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 5):
no wonder it is broken since months

Floating version is working and I am in the chat.. so come and join!!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:22 pm



Quoting Cumulonimbus (Thread starter):
With the treatment of a certain respected mod, glitches and amoung other things is anyone considering leaving A.net?

Nope. Seems fine to me. *shrug*

Everyone loves to bitch about message boards. They lament how the board is no longer like it used to be. They complain about the fighting. They complain about the moderating. Etc, et al, ad infinitum.

Of course it's those same threads that people complain about that are the most viewed, most replied to, and hotly contested. But the only thing people love to do more than disagree with each other, is bitch about how much disagreement there is.

Frankly, this is a message board. Nothing more. Nothing less. A message board. If your self-respect is tied to how many posts you have here, or your "respect rating" is, then you need to power down your computer, go for a walk, and reconnect with the human race, IMHO.

Enjoy the time you spend here. If you don't, why waste your precious time? I just don't get it.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:23 pm

Nice post Cumulonimbus. I think a whole lot of folks agree with you.

Since the sale to DM, and the subsequent server migration, and up to the events of this week, we've seen the post counts go way down - especially in the non-av forum. I don't have the numbers, but I remember hitting the refresh button every ten minutes, and the number of new posts were huge. Now, you can wait 30 - 40 minutes before that kind of activity happens. Not to mention, the threads are not nearly as good/fun/informative as they used to be, IMO.

I've read all the stories, and in some cases people have called for the removal of the non-av forum, but I don't think that would be a good move. If you look at the stats, non-av has hugh particapation from most of the users with the higest RRs, and the highest numbers of posts. Clearly indicating that it is the second "favorite" forum on A-Net.

I'm in total agreement with you about:

"I can not stand to see where this site is heading. I am not leaving yet but was just wondering if any feel the same as I."

I know this week alone, I've swapped more IMs, and more emails with members who feel the same way. Way more than back when the sale first happened. I supported DM, and Johan on that - it was his site to sell, and DM apparently thought it was good for their business plan to buy - no problem. Then the migration - I chimed in on those threads voicing my displeasure, even had a few posts deleted IIRC. Still, no big deal in the big picture. And the removal of ANC as a moderator is mind-boggling. Of course we don't know the whole story, and probably never will unless ANC or DM decide to share. Nevertheless, the member with THE highest RR, and right up there in post count was canned. Personally, I don't believe for a second it was because he was "too blunt, direct and essentially, not user friendly with the members" (that quote is from the other thread) I think it was because he clashed with the new management. Think about it - how can the most respected poster on the site get to be the most respected poster on the site? It certainly wasn't because he pissed off the very members that held him in such high regards. Sure he had his detractors - who doesn't, but I don't think those detractors got him canned.

Now, all bets are off it seems. I don't think I'll be self deleting, but I certainly will be down-grading to Premium rather than paying for First Class. And it's not about the money - fifty-five bucks a year doesn't hurt me, nor will it hurt DM not getting it - but I'm simply not going to pay for First Class and have to sit in coach any longer.

DM and Mods - I post this respectfully, and as far as I can tell, within the rules.
 
AF340
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:27 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 6):
Floating version is working and I am in the chat.. so come and join!!

Doesn't work for me...

I just get this when it tries to contact the server for the floating version:
http://i26.tinypic.com/352na6d.jpg


Liam spin 
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:28 pm

Check that link:

http://8.5.0.95/discussions/chat/float/

ONLY the FLOATING verions is working

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
AF340
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:31 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 11):
ONLY the FLOATING verions is working

Oh, I was going to this floating version:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/chat/float/



Thanks!

Liam spin 
 
User avatar
nighthawk
Posts: 4890
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:33 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:33 pm

im with you guys, ever since the change of ownership i have began to get more and more fed up with a.net, and am considering moving on. The only problem is that there is nowhere to move on to, and also I have a large group of friends here. I have considered making my own site to rival a.net, and as time goes on I become more and more determined to do it...
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:38 pm

I mentioned this in the thread that was locked... I think it's time the whole lot of moderators be let go. Not because I think they're all jerks, or do their job poorly... but because VC10 said that Demand Media is attempting to turn this website into a brand name, and has plans for future growth.

If that is truly the case, then they need to be let go. In every major business, after a take over, the first thing the new management does is let go of the old management. It cuts-off at the knees, any possibility of prior loyalties, or "this is how we've always done it", etc...

And VC10 said that DM is trying to make this into a more professionally run website, and he said that this goal could be negated by staff acting unprofessionally. Well unfortunately he made his own point, by doing just that! He attempted to speak on Demand Media's behalf, offering the rationale behind Pep being let go... but at the same time... he says he wasn't part of the decision making process!! So how could he speak intelligently on DM's reasoning, if he wasn't part of that discussion? It's not his fault, because this was how the website use to be run. But like he said - things are different now, and DM has big plans for Anet.... what he did was indicative of a "hobby website" - exactly what DM wants to move away from.

So really... what we have is a staff who still operates like their part of a hobby site, like the good old days... and a management team that wants to operate like a professional website. There is a disconnect between the two.

So yes... Anet is definitely going down hill. They may want to make this a more reputable website, but they cannot achieve that goal when the old guard still runs around not properly transitioning into this new business model. What Demand Media needs to decide is whether they want to stay a hobby website... and make minimal changes. Or do they want to become a professional, brand name website... and make major changes, starting with putting professionally trained people in staff jobs. You don't go somewhere in between, it never works. Decisiveness is key. -- Business 101.

-UH60

[Edited 2008-02-07 05:43:10]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:40 pm



Quoting Cumulonimbus (Reply 4):
Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 2):
There's nowhere else like it - not Mendis's site, not Ted's site, not Coz's site, and certainly not any of the other aviation sites.

Unfortunately, this also means that our hands are tied.

And that is my dilema and the only reason I stick around. Spot on.

 checkmark  While the olden days were no golden days either (non_av shutdown, mod issues, downtime and the like), you at least knew that somewhere up in Sweden, there was a guy who considered this site his baby. That way, it was easier to look the other way when something wasn't working; the fact that we were actually informed on and asked about the big and the small changes did of course help, too.

Over the past months, that has changed to where we are now. It's been a very long time since the last good laugh I had here, which was a major part of the attraction. Apparently, non_av is now serious business... so serious that the many folks who made this a nice place over the 5 1/2 years that I've been here are hardly posting anymore.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:47 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 9):
Since the sale to DM, and the subsequent server migration, and up to the events of this week, we've seen the post counts go way down - especially in the non-av forum.

Really? Alexa would disagree with you.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/airliners.net

Over all page visits are up 11%. Traffic is down 4% from it's 3 month trailing average. Here's traffic for the past 3 years.



According to Site Analytics things are fine as well. In fact here is the Velocity rating of this site over the past 45 days. For the most part all on an upswing. http://siteanalytics.compete.com/airliners.net/?src=dt100

http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08064/airlinerssite888102.jpg

I think you are "seeing" what you wish were true. Not reality. It's human nature mate, no worries.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:56 pm

It is headed down the crapper. And I am begining to wean myself from it. This site was great at one point, but now is part of corporate America, where they get rid of someone that says it like it is, doesn't pussy-foot around and calls a spade a spade.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1454
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm

While i have seldom problems with any of the moderators, I do think they should weed some of them out.
ANC was probably not the best choice of whom to lay off as a mod, I think most would agree upon that.

The site however has always experienced technical problems and if there was one constant in A.net's history it was that people where (usually rightfully so) bitching about unexplained down-time, upload and download problems and all other kind of issues.
I know that moving such a huge database cannot be easy and therefore am willing to cut them some slack for some time to come.

The thing that ticks me off the most is that some people are downright disrespectful (if you start attacking the messenger iso the message you completely lost the discussion IMHO) towards members with an opposing opinion and sometimes are not taken up on that by some of the mods.

A.net is still a worthy place to visit even with all the armchair aviation-CEO's (as I am ) present (99% of the members ???), I value the input of many members who have hands on experience (Zeke, Philsquares, wings, wilco, UH60ftrucker, and so many more.....) the only thing I ask is a little patience from them as this is an open board for everyone who wants to participate in the discussion even if they (we) are not always as well informed.


edit for typo's

[Edited 2008-02-07 06:03:53]
[edit post]
 
kmh1956
Posts: 2854
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:08 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:02 pm

If this thread lasts longer than 24 hours, I'll be stunned. DM doesn't appear to like/appreciate criticism at all....and will lock a thread if they don't like what's being said.

It won't make the criticism go away.....
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
AA777
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:02 pm

I dont really think things are going downhill... Sure there have been server issues, and reliability issues, glitches and all the like... but do you all really think its that easy to move servers, make changes and streamline the website?

As far as the behavior of DM and the moderators... I think we need to take a step back and realize that they are in the process of trying to improve the site, and make it more appealing for everyone. They have a job to do; which is to make sure that people here act civilized and not like babies. Perhaps they felt that certain people were not doing anything to improve the site, or its moderation. I know everyone here would like to feel like a close-knit group, and its kind of sweet that people are supporting their friend... but at the same time remember that we dont know everything and there must be more than meets the eye. I'm sure things will improve soon....

-AA777
 
User avatar
nighthawk
Posts: 4890
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:33 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:10 pm



Quoting AA777 (Reply 20):
.. but do you all really think its that easy to move servers, make changes and streamline the website?

yes... ive done it a few times myself - and in every case I have completed the move seamlessly with less than an hours downtime. A.net is far larger in terms of content than any site I have moved - so the move would take slightly longer. I would expect a move of a.net to take no more than 2 days.

The fact is DM did not plan the move, and just rushed into it. Instead they should have mirrored the site, transferred the files then properly tested it before putting the new site live. they didnt do this - and thats why it took them over a month to get the site running again in a semi useable state.
 
User avatar
asuflyer05
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:15 pm

Have you guys thought about writing a letter to DM instead of posting here on the message boards? I doubt senior management walks through the forums on a daily basis.
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:17 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 21):
The fact is DM did not plan the move, and just rushed into it. Instead they should have mirrored the site, transferred the files then properly tested it before putting the new site live. they didnt do this - and thats why it took them over a month to get the site running again in a semi useable state.

I never noticed to be honest. I didn't even know this site had been sold. I've been on/off anet for almost 2 1/2 years. This site has always had downtime compared to other message boards I've been to.

But server migration sometimes doesn't go according to plan. After all look at the USAirways / HP IT issues. Even with massive budgets things can still go awry.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
cumulonimbus
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:13 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 22):
Have you guys thought about writing a letter to DM instead of posting here on the message boards? I doubt senior management walks through the forums on a daily basis.

You do bring a valid point I think I may.
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:22 pm

I do think the site is going down, down, down...Do I expect DM to do much about it? Nope. And that is fine too. Life goes on, and naturally there may be an opportunity for a new airline website to be developed.
Go big or go home
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:22 pm

Quoting AA777 (Reply 20):

For me, it really doesn't have a lot to do with Pep.

My point is simply this: If Demand Media wants to turn Airliners.net into a brand name, and a professionally organized website... then it needs to be approached in a business manner. You need to have staff members who are professionally trained in their fields... whether it's IT, PR, management, sales, etc. You need to have clear goals, time frames, oversight and clear division of responsibilities.

This isn't new theory, that I am penning here! This is common business practice for hundreds of years. It's not uncommon to have a small group of people start a company, all working together and sharing the work load, in a collectivist group. And if the company becomes successful enough, and is bought out, most of the core members from the early days are pushed out, and replaced with people who are professionally trained, and more efficient at the job.

This is what is happening to Anet. It started off as a simple site with two guys figuring things out, as they went along. As it grew it took on more staff, and they shared the load, and covered for each other. But the shift to Demand Media is a shift away from that homegrown style of management -- or as VC10 called it: a hobby site. So this means people aren't doing other peoples jobs for them... a professional company has clear divisions of responsibilities. So far this has yet to be achieved.

So my suggestion is that Demand Media work hard at establishing a professional staff.

- New moderators
- A dedicated PR rep
- A professional sales rep group
- Competent IT/computer support specialists
- And a chain of command

You can't claim you want to make this website into a reputable one which has a brand name... but yet still have staff who still attempt to do the jobs of others (which is indicative of a hobby site, not a professional site), and an obvious lack of proper inter-communication with the staff.

-UH60

[Edited 2008-02-07 06:27:44]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:29 pm

i must have been living under a rock the past 6 month because i haven't acually noticed anything different with A.net apart from the chat wasn't working.

Exactly what other changes have taken place?
 
AF340
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:31 pm



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 27):
i must have been living under a rock the past 6 month because i haven't acually noticed anything different with A.net apart from the chat wasn't working.

Come to chat right now!

http://8.5.0.95/discussions/chat/float/



Liam spin 
 
B747forever
Posts: 13873
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:33 pm



Quoting AF340 (Reply 28):
Come to chat right now!

http://8.5.0.95/discussions/chat/float/

See you there!!!
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting 747438 (Reply 3):
It is now a business and therefore by definition, the focus will not be on the users, but profits.

Focusing on users/customers and focusing on profits are not necessarily mutually exclusive efforts, 747438.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 8):
Frankly, this is a message board. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I disagree. Following that logic, every bar and coffee shop could be considered nothing more than buildings in which drinks are served.

Given the huge variation in customer loyalty from one bar and coffee shop to the next, and considering there is rarely any significant difference in the product from one to the next, I'd say atmosphere and community are what sets them apart. Message boards and forums are no different.

In other words, to a great number of members (myself included), this is much more than just a message board.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 20):
I think we need to take a step back and realize that they are in the process of trying to improve the site, and make it more appealing for everyone.

Indeed.

Bottom line - given the structure of the site and the code upon which is was built, it's natural that things will get worse before they get better.

While, in hindsight, I think this message could have been more strongly stressed from the beginning, I'm also being careful not to judge the new owners until all of the systems, processes, and procedures are established, in place, and refined.

In addition, I'm not faulting the new owners for their inability to anticipate every complication along the way.

Again, considering the condition of the site before the change in ownership and the goal of long-term sustainability, I don't think it's unreasonable that things will get worse....and perhaps stay worse for a certain amount of time....before they get better.

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:52 pm

It may be time for new blood with the moderators. There is so much discord with other members and some of the mods that it may be time. If there have been complaints against one mod (ANC) in this case, be it that the complaints are from members and/or mods, it makes you think. Are some of the established mods threatened by a contemporary that is no nonsense? A quote about power: "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely." My feeling is that someone is working and lobyying behind the lines to form A.net.

There is a growing disenchantment going on, and Demand Media needs to take note. Discontent amongst the customers is asking for a slow death of a business.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
While, in hindsight, I think this message could have been more strongly stressed from the beginning, I'm also being careful not to judge the new owners until all of the systems, processes, and procedures are established, in place, and refined.

Lets use your coffee shop analogy. Lets say you go into the coffee shop and take a seat. The table is dirty and there is no service. You walk to the counter and ask if your favorite waiter is working today. You are rudely told that he has been fired. You are then told to sit down and be quiet, you will be served eventually. You wait for 20 minutes, no service. You go back to the counter. Are told again that things will be all better in a bit, go sit down and be quiet. You go sit down, nothing. Finally you ask to speak to the manager and are told she is busy and has no time to hear a complaint from you.
Would you go back to the coffee shop the next day?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
747438
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
Focusing on users/customers and focusing on profits are not necessarily mutually exclusive efforts, 747438.

2H4, the impression the new owners are giving is that they are concentrating on the business side of things, for example,
the new headers on the forum pages.
As others have stated, existing customers are important too
 
[email protected]
Posts: 16616
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:59 pm

My main problem with A.net is that some of its moderators are moody, rude, and they think they're God.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10822
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:01 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 2):
Frankly the idea that DM are getting $5 of my money each month isn't exactly heart warming, and I'd much rather take that $5 somewhere else...

I very much agree with you here, especially after wasting at least $5 during the appalling server transfer. It's the reason why I am no longer a FC member - where is my incentive to pay more money for a service which doesn't seem to care about it's clientele?

That said, I am not planning on leaving because as other have said, I have a lot of friends on this site which it would be a shame to walk away from. But it's the only reason.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15664
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:02 pm

A.net now has over 70,000 registered members and who knows how many 1,000's of non-members who look at this site every day. With so many people, that means thing have to change, it is no longer a small community here in the forums.

Under the current owners, they are a money making business, and need to reduce excessive and abusive usage to hold down costs including bandwidth. There may need to be more selective moderation of forums due to issues like copyright infringement fears, access of material unsuitable for those under 18, reducing clutter, personal attacks, and issues that may be illegal to discuss in some countries. That need for more selective moderation may have led to the dismissal of some moderators. Then too, some moderators may have changes in their lives that limit their availability to moderate. As now all but a few posters here have high-speed net access, it makes it easier to go to sites like this. You also have some posters who seem to live here, posting 100's of posts every month.

Clearly some changes have occurred for the better and worse, but some still need to be made. Several years ago, bad jokes about sheep and certain members got so bad that some members were suspended and it ended. I notice a lot fewer non-av posts as to the middle east/Israel issues, perhaps they are removed shortly after creation so access to the site isn't cut off by censors in certain countries. Then on the General section of the site, we have seen something like 2500 posts on the recent LRH crash, with many repetitive posts, so there is a need to make changes there too. How many times do you need to post about how bad President Bush is or comparing beautiful women and men eating up huge bandwidth amounts.

I have enjoyed a.net for at least 6 years, and as a member since 2004. I hope some better balance can be achieved here to keep me and the other 70,000+ members and non-member lurkers coming here.
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:04 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
I disagree. Following that logic, every bar and coffee shop could be considered nothing more than buildings in which drinks are served.

Perhaps my point wasn't communicated well. Using your coffee shop analogy, if you don't like the service/product/etc, it really is "just a coffeehouse" at that point. Go to another coffeehouse. Or bar. There are plenty of bars/coffee places to choose from. If one doesn't suit you, move to the next. This board is no different. If you don't like what you see, go someplace that you do like. If there isn't one place you can agree on, start your own board. It would take you all of 3 or 4 hours to start your own message board.

I guess if a place no longer was fun, annoyed me, or I didn't like what was going on, I wouldn't "waste" my time going there. It's my personal / free time that I can spend doing a # of other things. When I'm here I enjoy my time here. If I wasn't I'd go do something else. *shrug*
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3950
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:14 pm

Whenever i was asked to pay my first class membership i did it on the spot.My renewal is in 10months.i will give MD till then a chance to improve.If not then one first class membership is lost.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:32 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:25 pm

I don't have enough time in this site to judge how bad it is compared to the ANet of yore...but as long as there are no other places as diverse as this dedicated to aviation and aviation-freaks, i'm staying.....specially after paying another 6 month fee.
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 36):
How many times do you need to post about how bad President Bush is or comparing beautiful women and men eating up huge bandwidth amounts.

Bandwidth is ridiculously cheap. A message board takes so little bandwidth its negligible.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:42 pm



Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 32):
Lets use your coffee shop analogy. Lets say you go into the coffee shop and take a seat. The table is dirty and there is no service. You walk to the counter and ask if your favorite waiter is working today. You are rudely told that he has been fired. You are then told to sit down and be quiet, you will be served eventually. You wait for 20 minutes, no service. You go back to the counter. Are told again that things will be all better in a bit, go sit down and be quiet. You go sit down, nothing. Finally you ask to speak to the manager and are told she is busy and has no time to hear a complaint from you.
Would you go back to the coffee shop the next day?

Oh, believe me, I see your point. Continuing the coffee shop analogy (and really starting to want a good dark roast), I actually would go back to that coffee shop the next day....

IF....

- My usual friends were hanging out as usual
- The employees remained
- The employees acknowledged the shaky times, and truthfully expected things to improve

In the case of a.net, I think this is pretty much what's happening. Don't get me wrong...we should always question those in charge and hold them to certain standards. That said, I think it's reasonable to withhold judgment on DM until a sustainable foundation (ie: updated code, processes, and procedures) is established and refined.

Quoting 747438 (Reply 33):
2H4, the impression the new owners are giving is that they are concentrating on the business side of things

See above. Things will get worse before they get better. I believe (and, not being a DM insider, this is simply my impression) that if they were to dedicate significantly more of their finite resources to things other than the current list of priorities, the entire process would be significantly lengthened and drawn-out. Then people would complain that not enough effort was placed on the structural and operational side of things.  Wink

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 37):
Perhaps my point wasn't communicated well. Using your coffee shop analogy, if you don't like the service/product/etc, it really is "just a coffeehouse" at that point.

I see your point.....I was emphasizing that intangibles such as atmosphere and community can (and do) make a forum or message board decidedly more than just a forum or message board. I agree that if these things are lacking, our enjoyable corner of the web will indeed become "just a message board". I'm confident, however, that the efforts DM has made (and are currently making) are focusing on long-term sustainability. For us (the members), and them.

Please remember....these thoughts are my own. I freely admit that I may not have all of the necessary information to form a complete perspective, but at the same time, I'm actually very confident that my perspective is accurate.

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:56 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 41):
Oh, believe me, I see your point. Continuing the coffee shop analogy (and really starting to want a good dark roast), I actually would go back to that coffee shop the next day....

IF....

- My usual friends were hanging out as usual
- The employees remained
- The employees acknowledged the shaky times, and truthfully expected things to improve

After being treated in a crappy way, my friends would go hang out someplace else, that isn't the only coffee shop in town.
The emplyees are part of the problem, again, take my business elsewhere.
The employees can acknowledge the shaky times, but their performance is contributing to the problem as Airfoil's post stated. When you ask to speak to a manager and there is no response, I have better things to do with my time.

This isn't directed at you 2H4, but the customer service is lacking. I don't mean members like Carmen or Kai; I mean the people that make descisions that impact the membership directly, like the mods and/or photo screeners.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:24 pm

If you aren't happy with the way things are here escalate your concerns:

[ Los Angeles Headquarters ]
1333 Second Street, Suite 100 - Santa Monica, CA 90401
Telephone: +1 310 394 6400
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:55 pm

FYI this is the site related postings. Notice the lack of any DM customer service representative. Although VC-10 does give it a valiant attempt he himself said he doesn't speak for DM.

Most Active Users Posts last 7 days
Airfoilsguy 18
IFEMaster 15
Trekster 11
WILCO737 10
B747forever 9
JoeCattoli 9
ScarletHarlot 9
ZakHH 9
ShyFlyer 8
VC-10 8
6YJJK 7
TedTAce 7
Elite 7
Farcry 6
Psych 6
LTU932 6
J_Hallgren 6
Lindy Field 5
Jamesbaldwyn 5
747438 5
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
ANITIX87
Posts: 3009
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 22):
Have you guys thought about writing a letter to DM instead of posting here on the message boards? I doubt senior management walks through the forums on a daily basis.

I certainly hope they do.

How can a company expect to please its employees and customers if they don't take the time to analyze and address concerns? I really do hope DM comes online often to see what we're discussing. Everyone wants this site to go in a positive direction. And if it turns out that DM isn't doing their part to please the clientele, we'll find out rather quickly. People won't stick around if their needs, requests, and problems are not being addressed.

So, based on my assumption that DM does check out this forum, let me say the following...

PLEASE DON'T LOCK THIS THREAD. TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO HELP OUT YOUR LOYAL USERS.

TIS
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:57 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
Focusing on users/customers and focusing on profits are not necessarily mutually exclusive efforts, 747438.

With respect, 2H4, we're are not the target customer anymore. DM's target customer is now the advertising agencies, since they are the biggest source of cash. From a cash generating point of view, the users are the smallest piece of the pie. And that's the reason why DM don't want to deal with us, don't want to listen to us, and don't want to communicate effectively with us; losing us won't hurt their bottom line all that much.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
Fiatstilojtd
Posts: 870
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:59 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting 747438 (Reply 33):
the new headers on the forum pages.

 rotfl  ...this headers are anything but new....they have been at airliners.net since ages. Just click the Forum button on the Main Page and you will see them.

fiatstilojtd
 
jamincan
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:24 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 46):

With respect, 2H4, we're are not the target customer anymore. DM's target customer is now the advertising agencies, since they are the biggest source of cash. From a cash generating point of view, the users are the smallest piece of the pie. And that's the reason why DM don't want to deal with us, don't want to listen to us, and don't want to communicate effectively with us; losing us won't hurt their bottom line all that much.

I'm sure they'll make a pile on ad revenue if their user base erodes. This site is dependent on its users. Its content is primarily user-generated. Without the users, DM won't receive any ad revenue.
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:33 pm



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 49):
I'm sure they'll make a pile on ad revenue if their user base erodes. This site is dependent on its users. Its content is primarily user-generated. Without the users, DM won't receive any ad revenue.

I would bet that there are more non-members who visit this website than active, posting members. Losing Premium and First Class members will be a minor dent in the traffic, and since First Class member don't see the ads anyway, there won't be much of a difference.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

Is A.net Changing Negatively?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 50):
don't see the ads anyway

Does anyone ever use the services or products of those advertising?

Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH

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