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miamiair
Topic Author
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What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:01 pm

With all the recent events, I know I am not the only one that is questioning what is going on. With that in mind, I would like the members to sound off and post what they would like to see from DM.

Here's what I would like to see:

  • True customer service from DM. Where a question is asked and one can expect an answer in a reasonable amount of time.
  • This may change with the revised rules, but and independent panel, sort of an ombudsman between the members and the moderators.
  • Refresh the moderating pool. Change is good.

    Consider this contructive criticism and be polite.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:09 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
Consider this contructive criticism and be polite.

Consistency - applied to EVERYONE across the board, no exceptions.

Communication - From DM when changes and/or planned outages are imminent.

Customer Service - See Miamiair's comments above.
 
VC-10
Posts: 3552
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:18 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
Refresh the moderating pool. Change is good.



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 1):
Consistency - applied to EVERYONE across the board, no exceptions.

How can these two requirements work together?
 
miamiair
Topic Author
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:27 pm

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 2):
How can these two requirements work together?

First of all, they are not requirements. I think that the moderating staff needs to be refreshed. It is a complacency issue.
If you are at something for a while, you become overconfident from repeated experience on a specific activity. A new broom works better than an old one.

Consistency comes from DM. They have a set of rules, that everyone follows, and not make up on the go, or do it a certain way on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, and the opposite on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays.
One complaint that is always going on is about moderation; there has to be someone in corporate supervising the whole mod lot. Maybe a mod overreacted and issued a punishment that was doled out was excessive; there has to be an advocate for the member affected by the injustice.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2008-02-08 05:38:54]
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:57 pm



Quoting VC-10 (Reply 2):
How can these two requirements work together?

Suggestions - not requirements. Us users are certainly not in a position to make requirements. I think the "change" Miami is referring, and the consistency I am referring are two different issues. While they sound like contradictions, I don't believe that in the context they are written they are. He'd like to see a change in the whole mod staff. I'd like to see consistency in the application of the rules from the mod staff - and DM management.

Miamiair - if I've misinterpreted your comments, please chime in.
 
miamiair
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:21 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 4):
Miamiair - if I've misinterpreted your comments, please chime in.

You're on the money.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
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keesje
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:07 pm

* Moderate the moderators.

Is there insight to what / how they write in posts to members?

Asking "why?" by mail often is immediately followed by a warning to be banned (=shut up).

A series of warnings / deletions on the member statistics screen creates the perception/ track record you are a bad member

The possibly obscure / subjective reasons / backgrounds are absolutely lost.

I can see the number of complaints dropping, as well as deletions and bannings..

Members are just moving elsewhere.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:08 pm

Communication
Communication
Communication

People can generally put up with a lot if they are informed about what is going on. Polite, non-dismissive communication would be a real plus. An answer to our questions would be wonderful. An acknowledgement that things didn't go as planned and that DM underestimated the server migration would be nice. Some idea of how they plan to fix it would be great. What would be really great would be a list of the issues that DM is working on (at a high level is fine) and occasional updates. I have no idea if DM is looking at any of the issues that are outstanding - things such as the "x posts unread" problem, etc. Just being told "you'll know it's fixed when you no longer see the problem" doesn't cut it. In fact, that's rather insulting.

DM has pointed out before that by taking time to communicate, they spend less time fixing the problems. You know, I don't think anybody would mind paying for good communication with a day or two's delay having fixes go live.

Polite, honest, informative communication. That is the #1 thing I want.

#2 is a free month or two of first class membership, to make up for the time that I paid for during which the site was not working properly.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:11 pm

Get rid of the Non-Aviation Forum. It creates more problems than its worth.

In its place add a Frequent Flyer Forum. Perhaps in time it can steal some members from Flyer Talk and thus add growth to aNet.

Have certain mods dedicate their moderating to certain forums. For example a moderator may be highly respected in the Non-Aviation Forum, but may be known to a relative few in the Civil Aviation Forum.

Add pages to the threads.

[Edited 2008-02-08 09:14:22]
 
works4boeing
Posts: 46
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:41 pm

I would like to see a website that is consistantly up and running properly. As I write this, you can't access any photos, and you haven't been for at least the last 24 hours. The site has issues that affect usability at least once a week. The internet is a proven technology. Amazon.com always works, why can't this one? It's getting to the point where people are going to stop coming here.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:42 pm



Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 7):
Communication
Communication
Communication



Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 7):
Polite, honest, informative communication.

 checkmark 

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 7):
#2 is a free month or two of first class membership

 checkmark 

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
Get rid of the Non-Aviation Forum.

Bad idea. All that will do is fill the other forums with off-topic threads that have nowhere to go.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):

Add pages to the threads.

Thread pagination is a legacy throwback from the dial-up era. If you really want pagination, then perhaps DM could make it a switchable option - thread collapse or pagination. I would guess that the majority of a.net posters prefer the thread collapse method.

In addition to the above, I'd like to see DM adopt some universal IT standards; proper BETA testing, standalone test environment, out-of-hours support, published issue prioritization, and ticket tracking services for reported bugs.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
aloges
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:45 pm

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
Get rid of the Non-Aviation Forum. It creates more problems than its worth.

only if you want political threads in the aviation forums

I guess non_av is where most of the friendships that exist here have begun and are maintained. It is also the forum for actual travel tips such as "What to do in ...?" which is what I look for mostly. I could never care less about the routes that CO's "Peter Max" jet operated, I have never been interested in the yields any single airline makes on one particular route and I've definitely never been keen to know why there is no direct service between some city A and some city B.

But I have read tech/ops with great interest, I have enjoyed trip reports written in the spirit of, say, JGPH1A's one on the jumpseat ride, I have (been) helped out on non_av issues such as computers, I have admired the non_av photos taken by the same folks giving us the stunners that make aviation photography so special... and you come in here and want to take away that portion of the forum that I and countless others appreciate the most? That's preposterous.

This site is what it is due in no small part to non_av.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
In its place add a Frequent Flyer Forum.

What good would that be in non_av's place? If you want seat recommendations, there's civ_av, trip reports and also seatguru.com. If you want bragging of the "I scored a first class upgrade with daddy's FF status! I rock!" kind, you can find that right here, too.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 10):
Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 7):
Polite, honest, informative communication.


 checkmark  2nd, for the umpteenth time alas

[Edited 2008-02-08 09:47:56]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 927
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 10):
Thread pagination is a legacy throwback from the dial-up era.

Yet, virtually every forum uses pages. Pages just work.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
This site is what it is due in no small part to non_av.

I disagree, this site is and should be about aviation.
Creating political/national/respected users alliances in non_av only fosters divisiveness.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
What good would that be in non_av's place? If you want seat recommendations, there's civ_av, trip reports and also seatguru.com. If you want bragging of the "I scored a first class upgrade with daddy's FF status! I rock!" kind, you can find that right here, too.

Well, seat recommendations shouldn't be in civ_av. Also, this is not really a hobby site anymore it's more of a profit making venture. Frequent Flyers and the ads they would click on would probably generate more revenue than the ads the teenagers click on in non_av.
 
NIKV69
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
True customer service from DM. Where a question is asked and one can expect an answer in a reasonable amount of time

This already happens, but if isn't what you want to hear things just usually degrade into all sorts of assumptions and propaganda.

Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
This may change with the revised rules, but and independent panel, sort of an ombudsman between the members and the moderators

From where I sit this just seems like a way to circumvent the current system so the rules can continue to be broken.

Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
Refresh the moderating pool. Change is good.

I kind of agree with this to a point but I also feel that anyone else that comes in and tries to enforce the rules of the forum will just be met with the same disdain when the people who break the rules chronically get punished for the same behavior in the forums. You have to remember that we have users that just can't behave within the rules, they will always attack people for a variety of reasons, will attack DM for reasons that really make no sense. On the flip side they refuse to leave the site and go elsewhere so you are in a catch 22. Cleaning house with the mod staff would be great for a week and then we would be back to square one.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 1):
applied to EVERYONE across the board, no exceptions.

For the most part it happens already, there are just some that refuse to see it.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 1):
From DM when changes and/or planned outages are imminent.

For the most part I think DM has communicated the problems to us in a fair manner, most times it's impossible to predict when the site will go down. Especially when they were trying to migrate everything. Not to mention what more do you need? Color commentary of the changeover? The task they had from acquiring the site from Johan and moving it and doing the things they wanted was huge.

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 2):
How can these two requirements work together?

They can't, The reason people want the mod staff changed is that they think a certain few are out to get them. Which is nonsense. New mods would just do the same thing and we would be having this discussion in a month anyway.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
* Moderate the moderators

Isn't DM doing that? A recent mod was let go and an explanation was given. I know some don't agree with it but it doesn't change the fact that it seems DM is watching what the mods are doing.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
Get rid of the Non-Aviation Forum. It creates more problems than its worth

Can't you have users that don't post anywhere but in non-av.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
Have certain mods dedicate their moderating to certain forums. For example a moderator may be highly respected in the Non-Aviation Forum, but may be known to a relative few in the Civil Aviation Forum.

Mods are not here to be respected, they are here to police the forums and be fair, I mean isn't that what everyone is asking for?
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
miamiair
Topic Author
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:16 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
This already happens, but if isn't what you want to hear things just usually degrade into all sorts of assumptions and propaganda

Please show me how/where that happens? Please provide examples.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
From where I sit this just seems like a way to circumvent the current system so the rules can continue to be broken.

As noted in another thread, there is a problem, and it needs to get ironed out.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Isn't DM doing that? A recent mod was let go and an explanation was given. I know some don't agree with it but it doesn't change the fact that it seems DM is watching what the mods are doing.

There are other gripes with the moderating staff. Several members have had difficulties in their dealings. Since DM owns the website, and is collecting the money, they have the duty to ensure the moderating is done in a fair manner.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
Have certain mods dedicate their moderating to certain forums. For example a moderator may be highly respected in the Non-Aviation Forum, but may be known to a relative few in the Civil Aviation Forum.

Recipe for disaster. What is acceptable to a mod in civ-av, may not be to one in mil & Space. Get the idea?

What should be happening here is for Monique to participate, and communicate with us. After all, she is the Community Relations Manager.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:35 pm



Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 12):
Pages just work.

But are highly, highly annoying.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
This already happens

Where? There are countless threads in Site Related where a question has been put to DM and it hasn't been acknowledged, let alone answered.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Isn't DM doing that?

Firing moderators isn't moderating moderators.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
an explanation was given.

Where? All we got was some off the cuff playdown by VC-10.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Mods are not here to be respected, they are here to police the forums and be fair

Mods need to be respected in order to be effective moderators. Let's put it like this; who would you rather have a a Moderator - B747Forever or, say, MaverickM11 (taken directly from your RU list). I would guess it won't be B747Forever...

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 14):
What should be happening here is for Monique to participate, and communicate with us. After all, she is the Community Relations Manager.

 checkmark  I'll add that the communication should be a dialog rather than a monologue. It's the most constructive.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:39 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
This already happens, but if isn't what you want to hear things just usually degrade into all sorts of assumptions and propaganda.

A lot of questions have been asked this week and the slience from DM/Monique is deafening. Please explain this "communication".

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
For the most part I think DM has communicated the problems to us in a fair manner, most times it's impossible to predict when the site will go down.

Again, when? It's Monique's job we're told and she's made a single post in the past 3 weeks to let us know about new rules, that's it.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Especially when they were trying to migrate everything.

Oh please, in the corporate IT world, every manager involved, the CIO and very possibly the CFO would be canned for such a disaster. The problems were completely avoidable by planning and testing. A lot of us do this type of work for a living and have asked very pertinent questions, repeatedly and still haven't been answered.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
The task they had from acquiring the site from Johan and moving it and doing the things they wanted was huge.

Yes, but see above. Buy outs are common these days and so are bungled migrations but this one definitely made the podium.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Isn't DM doing that? A recent mod was let go and an explanation was given.

Not by DM to date.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Mods are not here to be respected, they are here to police the forums and be fair,

If cops aren't respected, things go to hell pretty quickly, i.e. Rampart in LA, New Orleans, etc. No different for the mods. FWIW, most of them do a great job, but again it's like a Police Dept,, a minority of the bad can easily cause problems for the whole.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 14):
What should be happening here is for Monique to participate, and communicate with us. After all, she is the Community Relations Manager.

Really, I'm shocked. Could have fooled me recently.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
747438
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:54 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
True customer service from DM. Where a question is asked and one can expect an answer in a reasonable amount of time

This already happens

What planet are you on ?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:14 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Isn't DM doing that? A recent mod was let go and an explanation was given.

Went back to the thread even so i knew the answer.The only details came from ANCFlyer.At the last answer from VC_10 as he was closing the thread,he referred me back to that.Not even VC_10 gave an explanation.So forgive me of disagreiing with you on this point.
One thing i like to answer from the main question.What do members need from DM? How about respect,clear and honest answers?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
True customer service from DM. Where a question is asked and one can expect an answer in a reasonable amount of time

This already happens, but if isn't what you want to hear things just usually degrade into all sorts of assumptions and propaganda.

No it bleedin dont.

In my thread "Sort it out DM" in all 100 posts 1 DM person answered, said nothing of real value and it was then locked.
When posts are done, DM dont answer and its up to MODS to post things, DM are not interested in what we think. I recall when it was first announced they said they will do all they can BLAH BLAH BLAH

They aint, and the site is going downhill slowly. You jsut need to look at the posts in this forum, and see the number of times DM have actually responded.
Where does the time go???
 
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LTU932
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
What Do The Members Want From DM?

Simple (not necessarily in that order):

1. Honesty
2. Communication
3. Friendly and to the point customer service and support
4. Consistency in their actions
5. Communication
6. Communication
7. That they address customer complaints, suggestions and requests for fixes at least with a simple statement
8. That they don't raise false expectations as they've done in the past.
9. Communication
10. That they start seeing us as the community that contributes to the site, not as cash cows.

As you can see, communication is probably the most important thing I want from DM. It worked with Johan and Henrik, so why not with a multi-million dollar US corporation?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:15 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):

Here Here
Where does the time go???
 
ChrisI1024
Posts: 50
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:31 pm

Instant banning of anyone who posts in civ-av "I'm going to $COUNTRY and my passport expires right after I'm supposed to get back. Will I have any problems?"
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 12):

Yet, virtually every forum uses pages. Pages just work.



That's because virtually every forum uses a canned forum software. Our forum software, while based off of a forum software program, has been customized and tweaked and is more of a in-house program. With the forum programs that many forums use, like VBulletin, phpBB, and IPB, you end up with some features that do may or may not have any use for. The software most forums use is the equivalent of picking up a six pack of beer at the store; here, we're more along the line brewing our own at home.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
Get rid of the Non-Aviation Forum. It creates more problems than its worth.

Actually, getting rid of it causes more problems than it's worth. Threads that would have been posted in that forum end up every else on the forums. There was a time about five years back when the Non-Av forum was closed for some time and prior to the closure, it was made a First Class Member Only forum that was virtually a ghost town. This was done because of the actions of a few members. There was quite a bit of backlash on the whole Non-Av Closure that lead to users getting their accounts banned.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 8):
Have certain mods dedicate their moderating to certain forums. For example a moderator may be highly respected in the Non-Aviation Forum, but may be known to a relative few in the Civil Aviation Forum.

That's actually not a bad idea in theory. There's a forum I post on that has two types of moderators. They have moderators that are assigned to certain forums and can only take actions in those forums, and they have "global" moderators that can moderate in every single forum on the site. What sometimes happens is that one of the moderators assigned to a certain forum gets into it with one of the global moderators and it gets ugly. The way it stands now has been the way it has been pretty much since the beginning. It actually gives the crew more flexibility, as there isn't any limitations on where the moderators can do their job.

As for everyone that keeps saying "communication", you're not the only ones that are constantly saying that.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:33 am



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 23):
The way it stands now has been the way it has been pretty much since the beginning. It actually gives the crew more flexibility, as there isn't any limitations on where the moderators can do their job.

Srbmod, feel free not to answer this if it's an inappropriate question, but is there an expectation that you guys moderate everywhere on the site, or can you pick and choose?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14260
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:27 am



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 15):
Firing moderators isn't moderating moderators

Yes it is, just because you don't agree with the action doesn't mean it's not moderating the moderators.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 15):
Mods need to be respected in order to be effective moderators. Let's put it like this; who would you rather have a a Moderator - B747Forever or, say, MaverickM11 (taken directly from your RU list). I would guess it won't be B747Forever...

Your confusing popularity with respect. Also your RU lists don't cut any wood when it comes to moderators. You want someone to be partial to whole the memebrship.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 16):
Again, when? It's Monique's job we're told and she's made a single post in the past 3 weeks to let us know about new rules, that's it.

Maybe they don't seem the need to constantly post in the forum. I have found everything I have needed and I don't need the instant gratification you all seek. Just read the threads and if you have a question send them an email. Maybe Monique can't spend hours on end in the forum like some of the people here. Personally I don't think any of these questions should be aired out here, it should all be done via email. All that it accomplishes in the forum is the constant back and forth and nothing gets done.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 16):
Not by DM to date.

Why do you feel that DM needs to report inner workings to you or any of the membership? It's private matter and it's really none of our business. Pep told the site what happened. If we were stockholders maybe we would be privy to it but we aren't. If you eat in a resturarant on a regular basis does that give you right to know private stuff about the staff or decisions by the owner? Of course not.

Quoting Trekster (Reply 19):
They aint, and the site is going downhill slowly. You jsut need to look at the posts in this forum, and see the number of times DM have actually responded.

I don't feel the site is going downhill, it had a period during the migration that was rough but we have moved on and I still see a lot of great new users joining and participating. A year ago I used see almosst half the amount of people online at any time. Looks like nice growth to me.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:30 am

For DM not to sell out email addresses, which appears to be possible with their new set of rules.
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
Indy
Posts: 4953
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:31 am

I want them to remember that we are the customers and they serve us. Not the other way around. Keep that in mind and live by it and you'll be ok.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
Srbmod, feel free not to answer this if it's an inappropriate question, but is there an expectation that you guys moderate everywhere on the site, or can you pick and choose?

I am not sure that SRBmod is around, but I'll answer from my perspective.

Moderators are not assigned to specific forums. We all moderate all forums. We are spread-out more by time zones than by forum topic. We have moderators in Europe, both coasts of the U.S. and Australia. One day maybe we'll have China and India covered as well.

Usually the first thing we do is to check the deletion queue which provides quite enough work for us to share. Then we look at threads manually, as time permits.

Speaking only for myself, I manage 2 full-time careers and do volunteer work 2 nights per week. And I still find myself moderating up to 20 hours per week.
Blank.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5558
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RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:30 pm

What do members want?

Good question,
Firstly be treated like members, at the moment there seems to be DM who are unilaterally changing the way things have worked for some time. Sure they purchased a business and have expectations of performance. They in the process seem to have forgotten about the communities that made the site succesful.
People either pay money to be members or invest time in visiting the site to look at photos(that have been provided by other members at no cost, apart from hosting, to the owners of the site)
Both add value, the visitors by providing a market for the advertisers, the contributors for providing the attraction.

Secondly, respect and I am going to apply this to both DM and the moderating team. The new rules about all mod-member coresspondence remaining anonymous/secret is just BS.
It also appears that the moderating team have lost a level of independence.. perhaps they never had that independence but at least there was perception of it. A couple of recent events have demonstrated that, the firing of at least one mod for spurious at best reasons is but one.

Thirdly, Communication, for a company called Demand Media and one that aspires to be a player in the communications market of the 21st century their customer interactions leave much to be desired. (the new term of use clause regarding No customer support is a ripper!!)

Cheers

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:36 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 29):
The new rules about all mod-member coresspondence remaining anonymous/secret is just BS.

It's a common sense rule; the problem is, we have some users that at times have shown a lack of it.

There's been an ongoing issue with emails between the moderators and users being posted on other websites. In many cases, these emails were selectively edited to make the moderators look like the bad guy and that the user in question did absolutely nothing wrong. They've left out very important details that shows the real reasoning behind the deletion/ban/etc. and try to make themselves look like the victim of "moderator targeting".

Correspondence between the moderators and a user should ideally between those two entities. There's always been a policy of not discussing reasons behind a ban with the entire forum, why should emails be any different? When a user starts posting the contents elsewhere without prior permission, they are pretty much are telling the moderators that they don't want to discuss the issue or matter in a rational manner without trying to drag someone's name through the mud.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:39 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 30):
There's always been a policy of not discussing reasons behind a ban with the entire forum, why should emails be any different?

Because e-mails occur off-site.

I'm not condoning their actions, just stating the obvious reality.

[Edited 2008-02-09 07:43:14]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3950
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:56 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
I have found everything I have needed and I don't need the instant gratification you all seek. Just read the threads and if you have a question send them an email. Maybe Monique can't spend hours on end in the forum like some of the people here. Personally I don't think any of these questions should be aired out here, it should all be done via email. All that it accomplishes in the forum is the constant back and forth and nothing gets done.

Ok so you are much smarter than some of us.But this is a forum and it is used to clarify things that we do not understand.Let me give you an example under terms of use section 11 and iii.your Account has extended periods of inactivity you can be cancelled.So what is extended period and what kind of activity is requested.If i just read trip reports and do nothing else is that inactive?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:33 pm



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 30):
There's been an ongoing issue with emails between the moderators and users being posted on other websites. In many cases, these emails were selectively edited to make the moderators look like the bad guy and that the user in question did absolutely nothing wrong.

So, what's wrong with requiring full disclosure or no disclosure rather than complete secrecy. Any user violating would get a vacation and have the full story published in all its glory. As a plus for the mods, there's a few troublemakers who would quicly be owned in rather spectacular fashion IMO and best of all it would be 100% self inflicted sucking chest wound level of pity from others.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 33):
So, what's wrong with requiring full disclosure or no disclosure rather than complete secrecy.

There's nothing wrong with full disclosure, the problem is that some users don't want that, as proven by the selectively edited emails posted on other sites. The issue is that emails sent by a moderator to a user is ended up being posted elsewhere without the consent of the other party. And this is coming from someone who is guilty of doing such a thing on several occasions in the past. If a member of the moderator crew had gone and posted an email from a user in the same manner, there would be users asking for that moderator's head on a platter. You can't have it both ways. The moderators have no issue with communications being posted elsewhere, as long as they have signed off on it.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 33):
Any user violating would get a vacation and have the full story published in all its glory. As a plus for the mods, there's a few troublemakers who would quicly be owned in rather spectacular fashion IMO and best of all it would be 100% self inflicted sucking chest wound level of pity from others.

Time for a reality check. No matter what the moderators do, we'll always be damned if we do, damned if we don't in the eyes of some users. Even if the truth were to come out, some users would still side with the user and not the moderator(s). Logically you think it wouldn't be that way, but logic seems to seem to be something that gets a bit skewed on many Internet forums. Some folks immediately start preaching doom and gloom over a minor thing and start manning the lifeboats over a simple rewriting of the rules and a tweaking of other (non-moderator related BTW) policies before getting the full story.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 34):
Some folks immediately start preaching doom and gloom over a minor thing and start manning the lifeboats over a simple rewriting of the rules and a tweaking of other (non-moderator related BTW) policies before getting the full story.

You wouldn't be referring to the recent photo copyright issues, would you?

If so, you would be comparing apples to oranges.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7088
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:29 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Thread starter):
#


# Refresh the moderating pool. Change is good.

I couldn't agree more. Some are good and some are not.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 1):
Communication - From DM when changes and/or planned outages are imminent.

I agree and think DM should give us a chance to participate on the changes if they can. After all we are your clients DM. Whenever you want to change anything related to A-NET, please start a thread in site related before you make that change to see how we, the clients, react.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 14):

What should be happening here is for Monique to participate, and communicate with us. After all, she is the Community Relations Manager.

I am wondering that too.

My views: Please tell us, your clients when you are making these decisions. In addition, please keep the
the Customer service people informed. They should be posting here as well. I have seen only the mods posting post here letting us what is going on. Maybe even add a extra Customer service support person.


Besides the opinions above, I think all is good.
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:57 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 35):

You wouldn't be referring to the recent photo copyright issues, would you?

If so, you would be comparing apples to oranges.

That's one of the things, and it is not an "apples to oranges" comparison. You have users that for anything and everything that has happened since Demand Media took over start carrying "The End Is Nigh" signs.

[Edited 2008-02-09 09:57:40]
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:59 pm



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 34):
You can't have it both ways. The moderators have no issue with communications being posted elsewhere, as long as they have signed off on it.



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 36):
My views: Please tell us, your clients when you are making these decisions. In addition, please keep the the Customer service people informed. They should be posting here as well. I have seen only the mods posting post here letting us what is going on. Maybe even add a extra Customer service support person.

Don't know about keeping CS informed, but Carmen and at least one other CS crew member have posted in these threads, however it's easy to miss with all the activity. Otherwise, you're pretty well on with what you say.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 34):
Time for a reality check. No matter what the moderators do, we'll always be damned if we do, damned if we don't in the eyes of some users.

No news here to me. Unfortunately it just goes with the job. Frankly you have my sympathy when it comes to some users but as has been said before, it's a volunteer job.  Smile

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 34):
Even if the truth were to come out, some users would still side with the user and not the moderator(s).

True enough but there'd be a lot of people laughing at them. Think of the entertainment value. Think of the hits that car forum picked up lately with the public ownage of the spammer that was linked from here. Actually, I guess it's DM that should be thinking of such, not you guys.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:00 pm



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 37):

Do you even have photos in the database that now, due to the new terms of use, have copyrights that are now in limbo? Put yourself in my (our) shoes.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 37):
That's one of the things, and it is not an "apples to oranges" comparison. You have users that for anything and everything that has happened since Demand Media took over start carrying "The End Is Nigh" signs.

"Anything and everything", yes... how many users have actually screamed after every little change? Five? Ten? You don't seem to agree that effectively losing the copyrights to hundreds or thousands of pictures is a big deal, so would you please explain how it is on par with e.g. the occasional server glitch or late e-mail? Frankly, I do not understand your point of view and would appreciate a brief explanation.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14260
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 31):
Because e-mails occur off-site

Yes Chris but as he mentioned when they are cut and pasted they are alterted to make user look like he is in the right and making the mod look bad. So actually it isn't a geniune email anymore. Which is why the only way you can go is to remain anonymous. It's not done because anet wants to be secret it's done because the users who chronically get banned and call out the mods and post on whiners just spread more propaganda that supports their position that the mods are operating improperly.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 32):
So what is extended period and what kind of activity is requested.If i just read trip reports and do nothing else is that inactive?

I am no rocket scientist but I venture to say that if you reading trip reports, that means you are in the forum and hence you are active and will not be deleted.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 35):
You wouldn't be referring to the recent photo copyright issues, would you?

If so, you would be comparing apples to oranges.

Actually it does sound like it and it's not apples to oranges. It's spot on.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 37):
That's one of the things, and it is not an "apples to oranges" comparison. You have users that for anything and everything that has happened since Demand Media took over start carrying "The End Is Nigh" signs

Yes they sure have, strap yourself in for the current round. Should be fun.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:18 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 39):

Do you even have photos in the database that now, due to the new terms of use, have copyrights that are now in limbo? Put yourself in my (our) shoes.

I have no photographs in the database at all (Not everyone here on this site is here for the photographs), and the reaction I'm seeing from some of the photographers is overreacting on their part. Instead of waiting for an official answer on the issue, they're jumping to conclusions, making rampant speculation, issuing conspiracy theories and threatening to pull.

Looking at the TOU and Privacy Policy of some of the other Demand Media owned sites, they seem to be using the same one here. In all honesty, some aspects of it need to be rewritten, as they seem to contradict aspects of the site.
 
User avatar
viaggiare
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:56 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:20 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 36):
After all we are your clients DM. Whenever you want to change anything related to A-NET, please start a thread in site related before you make that change to see how we, the clients, react.

What makes you think they would/should have any (remaining) willingness to be considerate (of these needs and feelings) when a significant portion of the clientele has consistently been hostile and unsupportive from day one?
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:29 pm



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 42):
Instead of waiting for an official answer on the issue, they're jumping to conclusions, making rampant speculation, issuing conspiracy theories and threatening to pull.

Had DM management not laid these changes on us on a Friday afternoon, these conspiracy theories and speculation could have been cut off at the knees. But, instead, it was a "here ya go, chew on this a while, see ya Monday."

Of course, all the controversy well likely increase traffic over the weekend...  scratchchin 
I lift things up and put them down.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:30 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 42):
the reaction I'm seeing from some of the photographers is overreacting on their part.

It is not. Just about all of them are saying they'll wait - I will, too, concerning my puny one photo on a.net - and urging DM to change the terms.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 42):
Instead of waiting for an official answer on the issue, they're jumping to conclusions, making rampant speculation, issuing conspiracy theories and threatening to pull.

Seeing how slow DM have been to communicate and how quick they are to make an extra buck or two, is that not understandable? The intellitext ad saga went down as outright lying with many on here, crew members are now appointed and fired with no announcement or explanation, we get a new set of ToUs whose core is shady at best and you expect everyone to lean back and happily wait until next week?

That would take trust for Demand Media. Alas, that has been in short supply for months.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 43):
What makes you think they would/should have any (remaining) willingness to be considerate (of these needs and feelings) when a significant portion of the clientele has consistently been hostile and unsupportive from day one?

The fact that they've repeatedly stated their intentions for a.net are none but the best makes me think that. And what makes you think the "hostility" is in no part due to DM's actions or lack thereof? The admins' attitude has changed a lot since the takeover, for the worse mostly, that is what ticks me off. I grew wary of the transition the second I read about it, so far that has been confirmed very often. Every time I thought things had finally improved substantially, there was some new clunker coming in.

[Edited 2008-02-09 10:57:48]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7088
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:47 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 38):
Otherwise, you're pretty well on with what you say.

thank you.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 43):

What makes you think they would/should have any (remaining) willingness to be considerate (of these needs and feelings) when a significant portion of the clientele has consistently been hostile and un-supportive from day one?

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but if DM did not please the customers in the beginning when they took over, then this explains it.

I think the whole thing about the DM take over is we have not been informed over certain decisions like we should have. If we pay to use this site and then we should have our say. DM should not only be willing to cooperate for our sake but for their sake as well.

I do have ask, how often is mod required to log in and moderate threads?

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:52 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 44):
Had DM management not laid these changes on us on a Friday afternoon, these conspiracy theories and speculation could have been cut off at the knees. But, instead, it was a "here ya go, chew on this a while, see ya Monday."

And leaving the Mods to handle the traffic and be the bad guy over the weekend . . .

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
Alas, that has been in short supply for months.

 checkmark 

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 43):
significant portion of the clientele has consistently been hostile and unsupportive from day one?

Nonsense. Significant portion? Ther dozen or three users that have consistently complained from the start of this tansition is not hardly a "Significant" portion of the users.

One thing to note - of great interest - is the INCREASING number of DISSATISFIED customers . . . anyone reckon that folks in SoCal are paying attention.

My friend Aloges doesn't post in threads like this often - but here he is . . . and quite vocal as well. There are other examples. But my point is made. MORE and MORE members are becoming increasingly more vocal with their dissatisfaction with the handling of ALL things A-Net by the Demand Media crew . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ua935
Posts: 551
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:41 am

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:59 pm

"What do the members want from DM?"

Let Johan buy the site back!
Live every second like you mean it
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: What Do The Members Want From DM?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
One thing to note - of great interest - is the INCREASING number of DISSATISFIED customers . . . anyone reckon that folks in SoCal are paying attention.

My personal theory: DM is more concerned with adding new members than keeping the current members satisfied.
I lift things up and put them down.

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