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TVNWZ
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Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:19 pm

There seems to be a lot of interest in the business of the airlines. Would there be enough interest in making a seperate forum devoted strictly to discussing the business aspects of airlines? It would be a place to go other than general av.

What say?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:45 pm

Flesh out "business" more, especially with respect to things like route and fleet choices. Are those sufficiently "business" or are they general aviation?
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JBo
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:28 am



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Flesh out "business" more, especially with respect to things like route and fleet choices. Are those sufficiently "business" or are they general aviation?

I think perhaps simply separating airline discussion from the rest of civil aviation might help ease the 'volume' on that forum.

I've always liked the idea of subdividing civ-av simply because the sheer volume of posts sometimes makes it difficult to follow ... but there's always those grey areas that would be difficult to define or moderate.
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TVNWZ
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Flesh out "business" more,

My thinking is all the posts about profitability, management of the airline, fuel costs, route structure---all the armchair COO stuff. There are quite a few well thought out and discussed threads. An airline business forum might---and I say might---get away from some of the flame trowing, antagonistic discussion that goes on in Civ Av. Make the forum more feel more like technical/operations in its discussions.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:46 pm



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
Make the forum more feel more like technical/operations in its discussions.

Isn't that why we have the Tech/Ops forum?
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TVNWZ
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:51 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 4):
Isn't that why we have the Tech/Ops forum?

Well, tech ops has mostly technical questions about the operation of aircraft etc. This would be more about the business; Wall Street, Financial affairs etc. I would hope it would have the civility of tech ops, though.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:38 pm

As a self-styled occasional commentator on issues regarding airline business, I think though it would be nice for a separate forum, I think keeping such generally valuable debate in Civil Aviation would be desirable. Why? Because it adds additional credibility and colour to the aviation forum community in general.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:13 am

You'd have to have two "business" forums. One that deals with the adults discussing real airlines and one for the kids that pretend to pretend to fly make-believe airplanes and pretend to own make-believe airlines. However, many have a hard time believing that their verntures are fake.

You know how many times I've seen a 14 year old kid who "flies" fake 747's on his computer try to tell a man who's been flying a real thing for 20 years that he's been doing it wrong?
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richm
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:17 am

I think this would cause confusion for some. It could be difficult for some people to differentiate between civil aviation and "airline business", resulting in people posting in the incorrect forum.
 
JRadier
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:12 am

I would vote in favor, but it would be nice to make it a strongly moderated forum. Sort of what Tech-Ops is now (perhaps even better) where there is no place for off-topic comments and obvious 'dumb' topics, but just the high quality material.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:25 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 7):
You know how many times I've seen a 14 year old kid who "flies" fake 747's on his computer try to tell a man who's been flying a real thing for 20 years that he's been doing it wrong?

I share your pain. The same bunch talking business theory that have done nothing more than have a paper route.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 9):
would vote in favor, but it would be nice to make it a strongly moderated forum. Sort of what Tech-Ops is now (perhaps even better) where there is no place for off-topic comments and obvious 'dumb' topics, but just the high quality material.

Exactly what I was thinking when I posted this. Yes.
 checkmark 
 
cornish
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:14 am



Quoting JRadier (Reply 9):
I would vote in favor, but it would be nice to make it a strongly moderated forum. Sort of what Tech-Ops is now (perhaps even better) where there is no place for off-topic comments and obvious 'dumb' topics, but just the high quality material.

 checkmark  That would certainly make me more inclined to start posting on such topics again. I've really cut down, due to just getting sick of the way threads ended up heading. Problem is with just so many posts in Civ Av, its not an easy task to moderate them all. A more business focused area would definitely be a good step in my view.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
chachu201
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:14 pm

Good ideas guys, keep them flowing, I'll pass them on to DM. Bear in mind, this is a major thing, so I wouldn't expect to hear news of anything like this in the near future, whilst the site code's being ironed out. However, once that's out of the way... Well, you never know what can happen!
 
scottieprecord
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:47 pm

Excellent idea. I was thinking about something like this the other day, especially for investors here on the site. It seems like it has the potential to be a great source of information. But I'd have to agree with the heavy moderation part, for sure.
 
JRadier
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:14 pm

I think the most important question that has to be answered is where civ_av stops and this forum begins. Just some ideas:

Civil Aviation
What if ......? (all speculative topics)
Merger mania
Normal news
'Opinion' topics

Airline Business
Operational issues (think like HB-IWC's operational analysis of KL etc some time ago)
Financial issues
High quality speculative topics (with an operational/financial/.... background)

Another important point is the moderation. The way I see it this new forum would benefit from a few dedicated moderators (+general moderators as back-up) to keep the quality high. Nothing against the current moderators, but I think that a smaller team is better in keeping the quality high.

Off-topic posts are a no-go as far as I'm concerned nor is there room for opinions (unless backed up), just strong arguments. Off topic posts should get a one-way ticket into the digital wastebin. If the topic lacks in quality it can be moved to Civil Aviation.

For example, the recent AZ threads had great potential but were wrecked with political talk that had nothing to do with it. In a forum like Aviation Business a topic like that has a far better chance of becoming a good discussion based on facts.

Just some thoughts,

Jurgen
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:25 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 14):
Off-topic posts are a no-go as far as I'm concerned nor is there room for opinions (unless backed up), just strong arguments.

How do we differentiate between "opinions" versus "strong arguments"?
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JRadier
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
How do we differentiate between "opinions" versus "strong arguments"?

A good question. I think (and once again, it's just the way I see it and probably a far cry from what it should be) that this is a thin line which can't be set in stone. You have 3 type of arguments, an opinion (and only that), facts and something in between. The first is not something for this forum, while the second is. It is the latter that is the problem. I think the key is how an opinion is backed up. The way I see this forum is based on reason, not on emotion. In a lot of threads in civ_av you see emotions come into play (for example from VCEapt in the AZ threads) and I think that that is something we shouldn't want in this forum. An opinion is fine, obviously, but it should be from a factual standpoint, not emotional. Where you draw the line and how you act on it is something that can only be found by trying.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:20 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 16):
An opinion is fine, obviously, but it should be from a factual standpoint, not emotional. Where you draw the line and how you act on it is something that can only be found by trying.

Something like (Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of) obscenity, then? We know it when we see it?
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cornish
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:38 am



Quoting JRadier (Reply 14):
For example, the recent AZ threads had great potential but were wrecked with political talk that had nothing to do with it. In a forum like Aviation Business a topic like that has a far better chance of becoming a good discussion based on facts.

Yes I saw that one - and once i realised the way the thread was going - very early on - I saw no desire to post anything sensible that would become part of an irrational argument.

The moderating would need to be tough. Ban anybody that uses "my favourite", "the best" or "I'd love..." That would improve things for starters  Wink

I joke, but more seriously, any persistant flamebaters would need to be kicked out quickly if it is to be a worthwhile forum. We could do without the "fanboys" - you only have to look at any Boeing or Airbus thread in Civ.Av. to see how ridiculous they become - thanks to fanboys on both sides.

Then you get threads where it descends into a farce due to people believing their airport is the besti n the world ever, and any taken by an airline to not fly, not expand or pull srvice is seen as a personal affront. look at Manchester Airport threads and BA for that. There are good business arguments to be had whether it is a good thing or not, and would make a good discussion, but it turns into a a complete slanging match. That sort of thing needs to be avoided in a business forum.

I some respects I'd quite like it to be limited to those who purely work in the industry, to make it much worthwhile to those of us who are left. But that would be unfair on those keen enthusiasts who want to and do engage in sensible discussion and want to talk about things with industry professionals. The problem is too many of us are sick and tired of arguing with 16-20 year old armchair CEOs in Civ.Av.

I'd like to think it would be a great idea - but it needs VERY tight moderation.
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JRadier
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:02 am



Quoting Cornish (Reply 18):


I some respects I'd quite like it to be limited to those who purely work in the industry, to make it much worthwhile to those of us who are left. But that would be unfair on those keen enthusiasts who want to and do engage in sensible discussion and want to talk about things with industry professionals. The problem is too many of us are sick and tired of arguing with 16-20 year old armchair CEOs in Civ.Av.

I think working with a blacklist is the best option. Everyone gets a shot, but if you screw up there is always civ_av left  Silly. In the beginning there will have to be a lot of moderation but as it progresses you only keep the good people and the forum should basically run itself. This way you get a high quality forum that is accessible for everyone who wants to.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Howabout An Airline Business Forum?

Mon May 05, 2008 1:44 am



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
How do we differentiate between "opinions" versus "strong arguments"?



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Something like (Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of) obscenity, then? We know it when we see it?

Yes, and it becomes pretty apparent after while. A lot of posts that have superlatives or hyperbole in them are prime candidates. Any argument that is well thought out, with logical and believable rationalizations would work.

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