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flyheligirl
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Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:21 pm

Hi all,

I'm taking a user's advice about starting a thread on posting. I do not want the community to feel they cannot express their feelings, whether they be positive or negative on the forums. That's what Site Related was created, to discuss an array of site matters and to introduce any changes on our side. If some feel the moderating has become oppressive, then I want to discuss it here and openly.

Some background...
DM bought this huge and developed site and there has been some growing pains, both technically and communicatively. Comments started becoming more and more aggressive and unproductive. Threads that needed to be read and commented on where being littered with pointless, negative comments and clogging the readability for all users. There was more work for the mods and because of all this, we tightened the reigns on certain behavior. We may have tightened them too much and if so, that's what I'd like to work on correcting.

What can be said...
Anything that is productive, this includes positive and negative comments. Any form of criticism is accepted, yet there has to be a point and the comments must be tasteful. For example, "I'm really concerned with DM's views and management of the community, I feel the website is in trouble if they continue to ignore the community." Although I never would want to hear this, it's at least stated positively and something I can respond to and that will not be deleted. In any post, please ask yourself whether the comment is productive, tasteful and constructive. If the answer is yes, then the post will not be deleted and if you disagree with a deletion, email the mod team and discuss.

What will be deleted...
Anything negative or disrespectful pointed to a single person or group. For example, "Demand Media and the Mods suck." This post has no point, is unproductive and sets a negative tone to any reasonable discussion. Another example would be, "The new owners have no idea what they are doing and the site is going to crash and burn." Obviously, not productive and totally pointless. Anything that has vulgarity and of course, normal forum rules always apply.


I hope this opens up a discussion for anyone concerned with forum oppression. This is not what we want to foster and if we tightened the reigns too much, I apologize and I'll take responsibility for it.

Please keep in mind that I'm not always going to post 50 times in one thread, or get back to every single user that posts in site related within 3 hours. A couple reasons for this, 1. the crew communicates most changes directly, so I usually only post for larger events, 2. I sleep so sometimes I will not get back to questions instantly, 3. certain threads I answer but people will continue to ask the same question, in certain threads my answer is final and there is no point is continuing a circular, never ending discussion.

I really hope this helps and thanks for everyone's support and opinions.

Monique
 
andessmf
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:04 pm

Little background on myself first:

In my line of work, I have an obsession with consistency. The construction drawings I create always have the same look and layout. I have literally created 1000s that all look the same. This applies to many things I do in my life, where I always follow exact steps that I have created myself.

However, the same cannot be said of posting here. While it is known in some circles that I have been critical of the changeover, it can also be said that I take pains in avoiding any non-constructive communications.

But when I have my posts deleted, while other similar posts remain, that loss of consistency just absolutely grates my nerves.

It then becomes an issue of 'why bother' posting.

For me, it is not a fear of posting. But the annoyance that IMHO, my opinions simply are not taken into account or dismissed outright. It follows then that I would virtually cease to post, of which there is plenty of evidence that I rarely do post now.
 
flynavy
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:08 pm

Monique,

I'm afraid that your concerns that the reigns were perhaps tightened too much are in fact true. The unfortunate reality is that many members and photographers have closed up shop here and moved on.

In short, I'm afraid that for many, the damage is done.

I remain a member of this site because, in all honesty, the scope of this site is unmatched anywhere else on the internet - even with all of the problems, bugs, and personnel issues that have plagued this community since the DM acquisition of our online community.

I still believe in this community. Even today, it has a lot of potential to grow.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
Chris in Atlanta

[Edited 2008-07-09 13:10:08]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:06 pm

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
If some feel the moderating has become oppressive, then I want to discuss it here and openly

The mods are doing a fine job of dealing with a concerted and relentless attack on this site and its ownership. Their commitment and loyalty should be commended and positively reinforced.

[Edited 2008-07-09 16:10:43]
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
YYZAeroEng
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:21 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
There was more work for the mods and because of all this, we tightened the reigns on certain behavior. We may have tightened them too much and if so, that's what I'd like to work on correcting.

Is this an admission of heavy handed moderation?
What actions are you taking to correct this?
What is your timetable for training moderators on how to handle critical posts?
Mind that Bus! What bus? *Splat!*
 
searpqx
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:38 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 3):
The mods are doing a fine job of dealing with a concerted and relentless attack on this site and its ownership.

If by 'doing a fine job' you mean simply deleting any post that asks a tough question, you're absolutely correct. I've stayed out of these because my general position is that this DM property, they can do what they please, and griping about it doesn't really accomplish much. However when I see a thread like this, then compare it to the heavy handed editing I've witnessed in the last 8 hours, their property or not, my feeling is that their message is conflicted at best, deceptive at worst.

My posting level has dropped precipitously over the last year, mostly because as DM began enforcing their vision of the boards, the tone changed and it became less interesting to me. As I said, I didn't challenge that, its their board to do as they like. There was still enough to make it fun to read. However in the last few months, not only has the tone changed, but the exact feeling that Monique talks about, a feeling that posts need to be censored, has crept in. Monique you say anything that is respectful will be left, but I've witnessed posts that while harsh, didn't insult anyone, simply called out behaviors and pointed out obvious discrepancies, and yet were deleted with moments. On the other hand, personal attacks by supporters of DM on some of these same posters are allowed to remain.

This will be my only post on the subject, for the most part I still believe it's your site to do with as you will. I can either live with or leave, but as you've asked for feedback, as someone who's been around longer than most I thought I'd toss in my two cents. I'll give a month or so more, and if the trend of the last year continues, I'll simply depart.

Regards,
Duane
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
flyheligirl
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:45 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):
I still believe in this community. Even today, it has a lot of potential to grow.

I totally and 100% agree.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 3):
The mods are doing a fine job of dealing with a concerted and relentless attack on this site and its ownership. Their commitment and loyalty should be commended and positively reinforced.

The mods are doing a great job. If anyone enforced stricter rules it was Demand Media. That was my point of this post, having an open discussion about moderating and blaming myself and Demand for heightened awareness of negative posts. I think the mods are doing a great job and have helped make this a positive place to post. There is always going to be people that don't like mods or me, they are literally like law enforcement but we (myself and mods) included would like to hear thoughts on how posting/deleting can be clearer to the users.

Quoting YYZAeroEng (Reply 4):
Is this an admission of heavy handed moderation?
What actions are you taking to correct this?
What is your timetable for training moderators on how to handle critical posts?

Yes, because the comments were getting aggressive, unproductive and rude, we moderated heavier to set a standard. Unfortunately, a small minority of people who are vulgar or unproductive posters made us enforce stricter policies.

This is the first action, having a discussion of what can and cannot be said in the forums.

The moderators are doing fine and training is fine. We'll continue to work together on consistency but all in all, the mod team does not have to do anything differently. The standards and rules should be set by the team and Demand Media and should be followed, that's it.

Hope this helps clarify my position.

Monique
 
andessmf
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:45 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 3):
Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
If some feel the moderating has become oppressive, then I want to discuss it here and openly

The mods are doing a fine job of dealing with a concerted and relentless attack on this site and its ownership. Their commitment and loyalty should be commended and positively reinforced.

May I SD this post, on account that it is 'off-topic'?

This is about those who feel that the moderating has become oppresive.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:09 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 7):
If anyone enforced stricter rules it was Demand Media.

And this precisely appears to be the 'big issue' to some people here.

I know of lots of people who either left a.net alltogether or simply stopped coming here on a daily basis, loooong before DM took over, because they were not happy how the site (primarily these boards) were being run. Johan build a great site but the last 2-3 years before DM took over he was MIA. He relied heavily on the all voluntary staff, perhaps a bit too heavily, in my opinion. Accountability was lost. I personally stopped using a.net at that time (and I know of many others) because of that. I could not understand how some people, moderators included, were allowed to violate board regulations on a regular basis while others were not.

The discussions boards' objectives and rules are, and always have been, pretty clear. The only difference under DM is that they are being enforced more strictly. What's wrong with that?

It's ironic that some of the people who now complain about DM at every opportunity they get were the same ones to argue "this is Johan's site and he can basically do with it what he wants" whenever someone dared to start a thread in site related, before DM took over.

I for one care about Airliners.net and DM taking over means there's finally some accountability back here which, in the end, can only be beneficial to a.net in general.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:17 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 7):
There is always going to be people that don't like mods or me, they are literally like law enforcement but we (myself and mods) included would like to hear thoughts on how posting/deleting can be clearer to the users.

Communication, and most importantly, Honesty! I believe there "were" several members that, if I understand your post correctly, fall under DMs impression that are:

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 7):
a small minority of people who are vulgar or unproductive posters made us enforce stricter policies

Unproductive is subjective. Vulgar should be sourced.

The banned users of late include the folks you refer - correct?

They include some of the most respected users of the site, including THE most respected user. They are respected by far more than most still active, they include a great deal of the folks with the highest post count, and some of the longest tenured folks the site has. (had)

Since DM took over, folks have been banned, self-deleted, stopped posting, etc. (I hadn't posted in over a month until this debacle) Yes - I damned fearful of heavy-handed moderating. I wish I didn't have to be.......

Folks have migrated to other sites, some of which are damn impressive in their quick growth. It's no secret, Ted has taken the ball and run with it - you and most of the mods lurk there - not only there - but Sean's site too. It's clear that folks have been banned from here for posts on other sites.

A little more than a year ago, this was the place to be, nowadays, as evidenced by the need for you to start this thread - not so much.
 
flyheligirl
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:28 am



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 9):
evidenced by the need for you to start this thread - not so much.

Typical, I get disgraced for starting this thread.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 9):
They include some of the most respected users of the site, including THE most respected user.

The respect rating has nothing to do with vulgarity and what we allow on the site. A group of people could all respect each other, making their respect ranking high yet this doesn't give them a free pass to be rude, disrespectful or authority to break rules.

Respect rating has absolutely nothing to do with being banned. Just as a lawyer, doctor, or factory worker share the same laws... users on a.net do to, regardless of respect rating.
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:30 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 10):
Typical

Typical???? Can you show me a pattern of where you can classify this as typical from me????

Not to mention, how are you disgraced? I don't see where this thread would have ever been thought of , much less created if it hadn't been for the events of the last few months. It's quite clear to everyone, including you and DM that folks are scared to post.
 
flyheligirl
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:46 am



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 11):
Typical???? Can you show me a pattern of where you can classify this as typical from me????

Not typical from you, I was stating in general.

If I don't start a thread then we aren't listening, if I do start a thread then we are admitting that this is not the place to be...

This thread was started to fully listen and confront any issues users are having. That's all.
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 12):
Not typical from you, I was stating in general.

So a poster with little history, if any, of aggression towards you, and you use it to generalize????? Isn't that real damn close to some of the complaints lately?

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 12):
This thread was started to fully listen and confront any issues users are having. That's all.

And I posted hoping you would listen - not take offense.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:05 am

Monique,

Although it is somewhat reassuring to read a thread such as this every now and then, I still feel fearful to post what is truly on my mind. The point is, actions speak louder than words, and the actions of your crew simply do not back up your word. If I gave you my true feelings in a constructive matter regarding the demotion of ANCFlyer, the dismissal of KROC, the sweeping ban of members last month, and anything related to a host of other issues, it would be dismissed/deleted, maybe even resulting in a ban.

Hope this helps shed some small insight. I have every intent for it to be constructive and not combative...

[Edited 2008-07-09 19:06:18]
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
flyheligirl
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:31 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 14):

Although it is somewhat reassuring to read a thread such as this every now and then, I still feel fearful to post what is truly on my mind. The point is, actions speak louder than words, and the actions of your crew simply do not back up your word. If I gave you my true feelings in a constructive matter regarding the demotion of ANCFlyer, the dismissal of KROC, the sweeping ban of members last month, and anything related to a host of other issues, it would be dismissed/deleted, maybe even resulting in a ban.

Hope this helps shed some small insight. I have every intent for it to be constructive and not combative...

Thanks for your remarks and the way you stated them.

Crew being shifted around or changed and banning members for rule breaking is not meant for Site Related in whole. We do not or should not, put on display every member who gets banned, for what reason they got banned or why crew members change. These often times have long stories, history and so on that is private so discussions on this is very one sided.

During Johan's reign, were crew member adjustments all aired? I'm asking this question seriously because I don't recall this happening.

One more question JetsGo - what type of thread would you start that you think may be removed? I'll let you know if it's reasonable and we can continue our discussion.

Thanks,

Monique
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:09 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 14):
The point is, actions speak louder than words, and the actions of your crew simply do not back up your word. If I gave you my true feelings in a constructive matter regarding the demotion of ANCFlyer, the dismissal of KROC, the sweeping ban of members last month, and anything related to a host of other issues, it would be dismissed/deleted, maybe even resulting in a ban.

This has happened to me . . . and without receiving a deletion notice.
Living the American Dream
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:21 am

While this is good to hear, I really have a hard time accepting the reality of this e-peace pipe you are offering in the context of what has happened recently. Specifically,

1. Many questionable bans including very recently Pep

2. The purge(apparently now an acceptable way to refer to it although my direct questioning of the mods regarding this several weeks ago was ignored) is a very real issue for many of us. Realistically, there were users who went way over the line and deserved harsh action, however you will have a hard time convincing me that this was the case with certain users like Halls120 for example - instead it seems that it was simply inconvenient to leave him and his very pointed questions around. Realistically, there are a number of DM staff with a much richer history of bans than several of the purgees.

3. Throughout the site, not just on SR, the PC police are out of hand. The mod staff is becoming overly homogenous in their world view(the active ones anyway) and this is not good IMO. It also just plain sucks the fun out of non-av and has even caused entire threads worthy of discussion to be deleted just because the subject was not considered to be PC.

4. The mod/staff obsession with secrecy is not productive and has been increasing in magnitude lately. Badly kept secrets and partial secrets have an amazing way of festering and causing problems. I realize that this is largely required by the current rules but I will again suggest that strong consideration should be given to a reversal of this position at least in some ways. More open moderation would do wonders in many ways - paranoid users would be stripped of ammo and mods would be more accountable to the user community; both good things.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
Comments started becoming more and more aggressive and unproductive.

I hope you realize that this was largely self-inflicted on your part. There was a very long period in which it seemed that SR had become a black hole for suggestions and problem reports with very rare feedback of any sort on your part. The insta-locked threads didn't help either.

That said, I hope that today's developments are indicative of a real and sustained change. Only time will tell.

I think you would also do well to seriously re-visit the purge of last month. As noted above, several of the account deletions are highly questionable. It's far from certain that any of these users would return if asked but it should be considered nevertheless.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:41 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
For example, "I'm really concerned with DM's views and management of the community, I feel the website is in trouble if they continue to ignore the community." Although I never would want to hear this, it's at least stated positively and something I can respond to and that will not be deleted.

I think I'm on to something here, so please follow me on this:

You said that your example complain was worded positively. Most people, myself included, wouldn't use the word positive to describe that comment. It is, after all, negative feedback. The word to use is professional. When you say you want feedback worded positively, many people could take that as meaning that you only want positive comments, and nothing negative. That perception would obviously lead to conflict, distrust, etc.

I think you want to say that you want positive and negative feedback, but only worded professionally (or politely).

I hope that makes sense. I've had a rough couple of weeks (not A.net related).
I lift things up and put them down.
 
L-188
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:42 am

Hi Monique.

1st of all thank you for taking up the advice to start a thread about this issue. I'll give you some points for that.

I left some comments that I hope you will also consider on the older thread about KROC but I think I need to expand it a bit farther.

In my working life I have seen several examples where orginizations or buisnesses neglect input from their customers or bystanders and suffer detrimentally from it. I am sure we all have had to deal with a cell phone company or a airline crew that doesn't care. I used to work for a company that didn't listen to what their main client wanted, they left and three years later I was looking for work.

I don't want to see this site fail in the same way, which is why our critisims should be heard and the users not punished by bans or explusions for posting them.

I generally don't have a problem with deleting posts for language, or becuase a reference post was removed. But when the deletions seems to be politically motivated or becuase they are critical of the current management then I do have to question them. Also when long term members who are removed from this site I do have a stakeholder interest in that.

This site is mainly a product of those members.

Mainly I think the problem boils down this statement.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
I do not want the community to feel they cannot express their feelings, whether they be positive or negative on the forums

The problem is that we can, mainly because even in the header you posted here, you seem to be saying one thing and then applying a completely restrictive standard that completely negates the first part.......from the start of the thread.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
What can be said...
Anything that is productive, this includes positive and negative comments. Any form of criticism is accepted, yet there has to be a point and the comments must be tasteful. For example, "I'm really concerned with DM's views and management of the community, I feel the website is in trouble if they continue to ignore the community." Although I never would want to hear this, it's at least stated positively and something I can respond to and that will not be deleted. In any post, please ask yourself whether the comment is productive, tasteful and constructive. If the answer is yes, then the post will not be deleted and if you disagree with a deletion, email the mod team and discuss.

What will be deleted...
Anything negative or disrespectful pointed to a single person or group. For example, "Demand Media and the Mods suck." This post has no point, is unproductive and sets a negative tone to any reasonable discussion. Another example would be, "The new owners have no idea what they are doing and the site is going to crash and burn." Obviously, not productive and totally pointless. Anything that has vulgarity and of course, normal forum rules always apply.

I appreciate you trying to define it, but in the first paragraph you seem to suggest that critisim will be allowed, but in the second paragraph everything will be banned. There is precious little wiggle room there for us users to be comfortable.

Also what doesn't help is that when a small comment generates a threat in a response.

I just got this comment back from an unamed moderator about something I said on the mission statement thread,

"Do not make rants of this nature again. The site and the moderators are not clamping down on you whatsoever, but the hostility of your posts today is escalating. Put in military terms, it is YOU that is firing shots across our bow. "

HOW DO I NOT TAKE THAT AS A THREAT TO MY MEMBERSHIP????

Sorry to shout there, but I didn't swear, I didn't directly out a specific member in that posting. I referenced the mass user deletions of three weeks about with euphomisim as justification as to why I didn't think the mission statement was being followed.

Apparently this mod found offensive and he responded with a threat to me. I don't know how else to take that.

When people are complaining about the moderators being overbearing I think that example has a lot to do with the problem.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ei a330-200
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:18 am



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 9):
Communication, and most importantly, Honesty! I believe there "were" several members that, if I understand your post correctly, fall under DMs impression that are:

I have to agree with many of the posts left above, but especially ORFflyer. There has seemed to be a lack of communication from DM following the takeover. While initially I though the weekly update was a great idea, they started to appear as though their content had been cut and pasted from weeks before. It made it rather hard to believe that any work was really being done, and it certainly appeared that the DM staff was having a hard time meeting their goals, judging by the amount of time that seemed to be devoted to certain topics versus the amount of time that they took to be realized. This also relates to the comment below:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 19):
In my working life I have seen several examples where orginizations or buisnesses neglect input from their customers or bystanders and suffer detrimentally from it.

This seemed to be true with DM. Many would use the SR forum to post questions or comments on how the site was being run, many times very constructively. There were very little comments from DM, with many of the moderators taking a very adversarial stance when responding to these issues. While I understand that there cannot be a response for every issue brought up, I would hope that a DM staff member would at least respond to each thread, not each post. The lack of response led many of us to feel that the money we were paying to me members of this site was pointless, and caused many (not myself) to drift elsewhere to fulfill our aviation needs.

There also seemed to be a lack of clear priorities by the staff in their mission. An example would be the creation of a new homepage, which has somewhat grown on me, although I still preferred the pre-DM homepage. This was created while numerous bugs and problems were being experienced by many users. It seemed that DM had their own agendas, and user functionality and GUI were not high up there. Just my impression.

As a last comment, I do not support any negative personal attacks on anyone. I don't think thats respectful and it is certainly not what I'm viewing this site for. However, I do not think that any of the comments posted so far in this thread have been personal attacks, and I find it rather disturbing that FlyHeliGirl has taken some of them that way. I do find it rather ironic that a thread like this would be started, with some of the first posts being interpreted as such. It causes me to wonder if that is perhaps the corporate culture taken at DM, where any comment against their site is interpreted as a direct attack, and is therefore ignored and followed that way.

Just my $.02. Hopefully this is considered "professional" and considered "constructive feedback" rather than attacks.
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:06 am

I'm not really going to post here anymore-notice my very blank profile-but I think, Monique, that you could gain a lot of credibility by reinstating many of the users that were outright deleted. I talked to a crew member recently about how the negative feelings are part of a vicious cycle: many users don't trust DM and the moderation that, as you say, you've been having the mods do, so they are, of course, hostile. This leads to post deletions from the mods, who become pissed off, which makes the users angrier, and then the users see that entire accounts have been wiped out, and...it just doesn't end.

And, right or wrong, the mods are angry with some of the users.

Right or wrong, the users (photogs, too.) are upset with DM.

Right or wrong, DM has asked for opinions and then made changes to the site that users didn't want, and ignored user input.

Right or wrong, users were outright deleted.

Right or wrong, many see this thread as simply another form of spin-control gone awry.

Please don't be angry. You've started this thread, but, and this is important, you need to admit that you have some anger problems with the users you serve. Expressing this in the form of outright user deletions is simply an outward sign of those issues. Why don't you offer to take them back on? Or make an explanation (Saying that it's none of my business does not help you, though it gets rid of "me" as a problem.) to the community that does not blame "ridiculous, hostile users." Even in this OP of yours, there is incredible negativity. So you must feel that it is justified.

I don't think that you'll delete anymore user accounts...too much bad PR...but you need to do something.

You've got a hard job to do...permabanning any users with negative sentiments might be easiest, but they you might start another cycle, where you have to ban more members...and more...and maybe the new accounts won't keep up with those you get rid of.

I don't want to leave Airliners on a bad foot, because that would show that I care what happens to this site more than I actually do. I paid my $25 after tiring of the FC membership, and I don't care much anymore. I think it is important that you realize, regardless of fairness, how people are viewing you and DM, and decide to act either 100% like a business or 100% like a a person ruled by emotion.

You guys have a real mess, piranha infested code swamp or not, and you're being paid to fix it. I think you need to completely let go of the past (mods too.) and start over somehow...don't know that that is possible...but you need to. And, honestly, I don't think that it can be done. But it would help.

As for me, I have better things to do. I'll be keeping my account, and not posting much, because I've found other diversions (And face it, so have others.), and the account lets me get away without intellitext and such.

I've been completely honest. That's really what I think. I, as a user, don't need to appease you. You guys need to make your customers happy, though. Remember that.

And remember: deleting users, especially ones with high RRs, is just not a good plan. Regardless of what YOU think of them, they didn't get that RR for nothing. That act really, really wounded you guys. It's laid a foundation of mistrust and unhappiness that is going to be a real pain to undo. So what can you do to make it better? Let them back? Let some that didn't have bad sigs back? Let none back? Do nothing at all?

Hope you consider this a fair post.

EDIT: I admit there is negativity in my post, too. I think we both need to accept that it's there. I think we all have the capacity to do so.

[Edited 2008-07-09 23:22:08]
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:32 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
What can be said...
Anything that is productive, this includes positive and negative comments.

I welcome this.

In the recent past, I have had posts deleted, been banned, been threatened by the moderators with more bans, been asked by the moderators to leave Anet (I met them halfway by not renewing my first-class membership), and been accused by Paolo of "spreading negative energy".

And yet I am still here. Why? Because I care about the site and what happens to it.

I do not blame the moderators for the policy in recent times - I am sure they were under instructions from DM. DM, in turn, appeared to be acting out of fear and to be genuinely unable to respond to constructive criticism by dealing with the issues or even by meaningful communication with the criticisers.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 1):
loss of consistency just absolutely grates my nerves.

It then becomes an issue of 'why bother' posting.

Indeed. DM should be aware that apathy is far more dangerous than constructive crtiticism.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:32 pm

May I make a suggestion that I think would help in this context?

Delete Forum Rule 7G. It reads:

"We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at our discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason.".

What is your response, Monique?
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:24 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 18):
I think you want to say that you want positive and negative feedback, but only worded professionally (or politely).

At last something I understand in this thread! I feel tempted to ask, "tell us what you really want".

I am reminded a bit of the GAO criticism of the Tanker proposal where bits of it put through Word grammar showed a grade level of about 34 was required to comprehend it.

In that instance the culprit was overly long sentences. Here the problem WADR seems more to be the aim of the thread.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 19):
Apparently this mod found offensive and he responded with a threat to me. I don't know how else to take that.

When people are complaining about the moderators being overbearing I think that example has a lot to do with the problem.

That does seem to happen L-188!!

One POSITIVE suggestion is a quick course on irony for some of the mods.

For suggesting that my post might have been misread, I was told for my pains that I had attitude. Well of course, after that I did have attitude.

That said, I am sure the task of the mods must be awful at times as there are indeed some truly horrible posts and even whole threads. In at least some cases, you can watch (if you have the patience) some of the posters getting a thread back on track better than a flock of brilliant mods could ever do. There is one such running in Non-av at present.

There does seem to be a cultural divide between at least some US approaches and those from non US countries.

Back in 1974 or so, Exxon had a problem with Aus and US staff which eventually turned out to be that the US staff were so polite the Aus staff could never work out what they really thougyt whereas the US staff were appalled at how blunt the Aus staff were.

?The boot seems to have moved feet.
 
YYZAeroEng
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:29 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
We may have tightened them too much and if so, that's what I'd like to work on correcting.

You admit to heavy handed moderation here, and say you want to correct that.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 7):
We'll continue to work together on consistency but all in all, the mod team does not have to do anything differently.

Here you say you're going to do nothing about it.

While I do appreciate what your trying to do in this thread, it appears you're just paying lip service to the concerns of the membership.

Your original post made it seem like concrete and measurable actions would be undertaken to right the admitted wrongs of the past and have the users, owners and mods go forward with a better sense of community.

Your subsequent posts have shown your intentions to be otherwise. I can appreciate that these subsequent posts are an emotional response to having your back up against the wall. It mustn't be easy having a number of users being critical of all your hard work. But that shouldn't be an excuse to gloss over legitimate concerns.

So now that you've had a night to sleep on it and collect your thoughts, I'll ask again:

Since you've admitted to heavy handed moderation, and have stated you'll correct it what specific and measurable actions are you going to take to correct this?
Mind that Bus! What bus? *Splat!*
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:02 pm



Quoting YYZAeroEng (Reply 25):
Since you've admitted to heavy handed moderation, and have stated you'll correct it what specific and measurable actions are you going to take to correct this?

For starters, I made a modest proposal in Reply 23.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:10 pm

I just posted a thread that suggested a way to fix the problems Monique stated in this thread, however, it was deleted in less than 15 minutes.

I even put 'I dont mean for this to be taken with offense'. It was only a suggestion.

But its gone, with no explanation. No wonder people are fearful.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:35 pm



Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 27):
I just posted a thread that suggested a way to fix the problems Monique stated in this thread, however, it was deleted in less than 15 minutes.

I even put 'I dont mean for this to be taken with offense'. It was only a suggestion.

But its gone, with no explanation. No wonder people are fearful.

Cheers,
Kyle

Hello Speedbird747BA,

Your thread was deleted because it was a valid post that needed to be raised in this thread - not a separate thread of its own.

A notification was sent to you, along with a separate email directly from me. There does appear to be a problem with our email notification system - and it's possible that the last 15 or so notices have not been properly sent out. This has not been verified, but is being investigated. The problem was reported over an hour ago.

In those communications, I explained that you're welcome to re-post your concerns (word for word) in this thread. Though you may not have received the system-generated message, you surely should have gotten the email I sent you personally.

Diamond
Blank.
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:43 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 28):

OK, Thanks Diamond, I did just get your notification, but I have not received the system-generated message. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Here was my post:

I know I haven't posted on a regular basis for about a year now, but i have been lurking and keeping tabs on a.net. I have also been talking with friends that are also a.net members and we generally all feel the same way about where this website has gone after the DM takeover. We miss what the site was, where there alot of members who got to know each other and become 'friends' within the context of a.net. It was like a family, I know that sounds cheesy, but it was.

The long-time members of this site really cared about the community here on a.net. I think its in the best interest of the site if we put the site in their control, back in their control. DM can still own the site, but its very obvious that they are not to great at managing the site, so I suggest that they no longer manage the site. Let the mods do the job, they always did it well.

Where this went awry was when Monique and Paulo stepped in and started moderating a little too heavily, then seemingly with vengeance. Im not saying that DM is not trying, but I just don't believe they are right for the job.

An a.net where the moderating is left up to the moderators using the rules they used to use would be better off.

I hope this is not taken with offense, it is just a suggestion.
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:00 pm

The story of the problems go back way earlier than heavy moderation to something that happened after the takeover.

Unfortunately, lack of communication escalated a problem to crisis levels.

But it basically boils down to this:

Johan was able to create in the a.net forums a fantastic product, that no one but him and Henks could administer. When the changeover occurred, DM was tasked with doing something nearly impossible. That is keeping a website going while essentially rebuilding it from the ground up.

Many users were ticked off at this turn of events, as the improvements that should have occurred turned into more of a nightmare of bugs. Some members expressed their disatisfaction in less than ideal terms as the crisis deepened. Lack of handling caused a cascade of charges and counter-charges that created a very poisonous environment between DM and some users.

Other things that happened are thoughts that I rather keep to myself.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:13 pm

I been around the block or two in my time. The actions that I take in the course of my employment can take someone's freedom away which is a heck of a lot more serious than getting purged from this site. Before even posting I have to think of all the reasons why my post might get deleted, which in my view disminishes the quality of interaction between the members in the discussion forums. No having wrote that, I have found the overall site less interesting and the discussions in Non-Av less thoughtful since the purge. Prime example:

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 17):
Halls120

This gentleman, posted some of the most interesting, though provoking treads on the Non-Av site, always respectful, and there is no way that any moderator could justify a permanent ban based on any item that he posted.
Lowering the bar on discussion to the level of I lost my job at Burger King, and Would you bang this, and not being consistent about rules,(besides all the other bugs) is why I probably will not renew my membership when it expires in a few months. But life goes on...this is DM site and I fully support the concept that they can run it they want, but as a consumer/member I too can make a decision to remain or go.
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:48 pm

Well, this may be the last time I post here as I am very fearful of saying anything out of order. However, what I will say is, some of the people recently banned, evicted or otherwise presueded to leave A.net were some of the more responsible, sensible and articulate that have appeared here.

To ban them for what amounted to a bit of dissent and criticism at a time when the future of the site appeared to be debateable is, in my mind, ludicrous. I feel that all this managed to do was encourage others to jump ship and to go somewhere they could freely express their opinions and put some fun back into posting. Because I don't feel that there IS any fun here anymore. The site is depressing, the content getting very wary and bland, with no attempt at humour or enjoyment.

I have an evil sense of humour coupled with a large dose of cynicism, which sometimes gets misunderstood by some of the folk here. But now I hold both those traits in check because a), there is no one here to share with and b) I would be banned and probably asked to leave on a permanent basis.

The very fact that you have felt the need to start this thread shows me there is something fundamentally wrong with A.net. It is no longer a cosy group of like-minded individuals sharing their love of aviation with their sense of fun but a more serious, scared bunch of people who are bland to say the least.

My mind isn't yet made up whether I should leave or not. I still have 400+ pictures here and I appear to be recieving a regular amount of hits which is marginally encouraging. But if I have to mind what I say, be wary of upsetting someone, curb my natural humour or bite my tongue when I disagree with a point or subject, then I shall leave. There really is no point in membership of a boring, scared and somewhat nervous site. Certainly no point in paying for the privelage.

I liked A.net, I enjoyed A.net, now I do neither of those things.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
User avatar
viaggiare
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:03 pm



Quoting Halcyon (Reply 21):
you could gain a lot of credibility by reinstating many of the users that were outright deleted.

No surprise that this thread finds itself hijacked (as has consistently been the case with previous bona fide efforts on behalf of the site's ownership to address legitimate community concerns) by the usual suspects, in yet another public display of their false sense of entitlement.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 21):
the mods are angry with some of the users

Those who have been given the unpalatable task of dealing with this kind of nonsense every day are likely quite frustrated, that's all. So are many rule-abiding members of this community.

And my guess is that the foolishness tolerance level will probably remain (and rightly so) at an all-time low until the rabble-rousers (some of whom are old enough to know better) abandon their shameful ways, are thrown overboard, or choose to jump ship on their own accord.

So here is this member's feedback: Under no circumstances should a disgruntled minority be given free reign to wreak forum havoc, weaken crew morale, and foster division among the membership.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
flyheligirl
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:13 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 17):
1. Many questionable bans including very recently Pep

Pep has been banned many many times before. This is not his first run. He broke rules so his post was deleted, I don't know what else to say. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 18):

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
For example, "I'm really concerned with DM's views and management of the community, I feel the website is in trouble if they continue to ignore the community." Although I never would want to hear this, it's at least stated positively and something I can respond to and that will not be deleted.

I think I'm on to something here, so please follow me on this:

You said that your example complain was worded positively. Most people, myself included, wouldn't use the word positive to describe that comment. It is, after all, negative feedback. The word to use is professional. When you say you want feedback worded positively, many people could take that as meaning that you only want positive comments, and nothing negative. That perception would obviously lead to conflict, distrust, etc.

I think you want to say that you want positive and negative feedback, but only worded professionally (or politely).

I hope that makes sense. I've had a rough couple of weeks (not A.net related).

You are spot on. Thank you very much for reading between the lines and clarifying.

Quoting EI A330-200 (Reply 20):
As a last comment, I do not support any negative personal attacks on anyone. I don't think thats respectful and it is certainly not what I'm viewing this site for. However, I do not think that any of the comments posted so far in this thread have been personal attacks, and I find it rather disturbing that FlyHeliGirl has taken some of them that way. I do find it rather ironic that a thread like this would be started, with some of the first posts being interpreted as such. It causes me to wonder if that is perhaps the corporate culture taken at DM, where any comment against their site is interpreted as a direct attack, and is therefore ignored and followed that way.

I'm not following you completely. I said "typical" and was referring to the continuing cycle of no matter what route we take, some users will always be upset. The user said it was not intended that way and so I took it back. Nothing a user has said made me feel personally attacked and I think I've been open to listening and not defensive. If you perceived otherwise, than I apologize. That's not the purpose of this thread.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 21):
Please don't be angry. You've started this thread, but, and this is important, you need to admit that you have some anger problems with the users you serve.

I wouldn't say this usually, but you are utterly wrong. Not one ounce of hostility or anger towards the community, quite the opposite.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 21):
deleting users, especially ones with high RRs, is just not a good plan.

Again - RR has nothing to do with being banned. If a user breaks the rules, they will be banned and RR will not be taken into consideration.

Quoting Viv (Reply 23):
"We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at our discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason.".

What is your response, Monique?

This is a catch all phrase to protect moderators, very similar to legal documents. Just like the signs in stores, "We have the right to refuse service to anyone." It's the same thing. We always give users reasons for deletions and so on, but if someone is being rude/aggressive/threatening, then we reserve the right to ban that user and cease communication to them altogether. That's the reason for this rule.

Quoting YYZAeroEng (Reply 25):
While I do appreciate what your trying to do in this thread, it appears you're just paying lip service to the concerns of the membership.

[quote=YYZAeroEng,reply=25]Since you've admitted to heavy handed moderation, and have stated you'll correct it what specific and measurable actions are you going to take to correct this?

I've admitted that we started enforcing our rules more strictly in reaction to increased numbers of aggressive/disrespectful posts. First step to correcting this is discussing this with the community and that's what were doing here.

I hope I addressed some of the comments, I'll continue to read/discuss this with anyone who would like to.

Thanks,

Monique
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:30 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 17):
1. Many questionable bans including very recently Pep

Pep has been banned many many times before.

Many times?  redflag  Yeah, I know it's none of my business, but I'd have to call you out on that one. That's bogus. Up until some weeks ago, he still had me beat on having a fewer number of bans (and I've only - currently - been banned once, and that was years ago during my first run here).

Quoting AirCop (Reply 31):
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 17):
Halls120

This gentleman, posted some of the most interesting, though provoking treads on the Non-Av site, always respectful, and there is no way that any moderator could justify a permanent ban based on any item that he posted.

 checkmark  That one still mystifies me.
Living the American Dream
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14310
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:30 pm

During the last year I have been banned several times because I posted a post that a moderator qualified as Tech/Ops post.

These threads (Ecoliner, Upgrading the A320) were obviously so damaging to the site the moderator had to ban me for three months after I violated that rule twice within a few weeks.

When I pointed out I had been doing similar posts for 7 years within any problem (contrary >10.000 views indicate people weren't hurt to much) and the civil av forum is loaded with similar posts at any time, that wasn't denied.

Still I got banned for months. I started posting on PPrune and other forums after that. The moderators seem much more moderate, don't thread to ban you if they don't agree.

So am I afraid to post? of course not. But I try to avoid a few mods, because I know they will grab the opportunity to use obscure rules to ban me using administrative rules.

And they never seem able to come back on a decision, even if its clear it stinks.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
YYZAeroEng
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
I've admitted that we started enforcing our rules more strictly in reaction to increased numbers of aggressive/disrespectful posts

You admitted to tightening the rules too much in post one.
As part of that discussion you have been asked to make amends for your admitted mistake.
You have failed to address this issue in any meaningful way.

I have twice suggested ways in which you can start to make amends, but those comments were deleted by mods. Others in this thread have suggested the same thing as myself but their posts remain. Yet you claim your mods do not require further training.

Users here have done a fantastic job outlining all their concerns and have offered suggestions on how to correct mistakes on both sides.
Now that you've read them, what is your plan of action? Are you going to show the users you're serious about addressing their concerns? What is your timetable for implementing changes to remove the fear of posting? When are you going to train you mods on consistently of rule application? When are you going to train your mods to provide timely responses to user questions?

We'd like to see some action on your part, not just words.
Mind that Bus! What bus? *Splat!*
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:16 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Not one ounce of hostility or anger towards the community, quite the opposite.

I doubt that is so. You admit that posts to you are offensive, rude, and disrespectful. Does that not make you angry? And you are picking tiny portions of my post. What about my questions? Why was Hall120 deleted? Should he be allowed back?

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):

Again - RR has nothing to do with being banned. I

No, but it has a lot to do with keeping your business alive, which you are not seeming to realize, ma'am.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 33):
usual

Glad that I am not unusual.
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:31 pm



Quoting YYZAeroEng (Reply 37):
We'd like to see some action on your part, not just words.

I think some words would be nice, just for starters.
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:57 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Pep has been banned many many times before. This is not his first run. He broke rules so his post was deleted, I don't know what else to say. Nothing out of the ordinary.

I knew a guy who sold sand from Alabama to the Saudis, literally. He couldn't sell that statement.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:01 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 40):
Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Pep has been banned many many times before. This is not his first run. He broke rules so his post was deleted, I don't know what else to say. Nothing out of the ordinary.

I knew a guy who sold sand from Alabama to the Saudis, literally. He couldn't sell that statement.

I can't attest to what he may/may not have done to break the rules for right now, but what you stated, Monique, is defamatory against the character of someone who currently doesn't have a voice to object here. I respectfully (and constructively) suggest the editing of that post.
Living the American Dream
 
ei a330-200
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2001 8:22 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:07 pm

Any indication that anything that anyone has said will be considered would be nice. That seems to be a re-occuring issue between DM and the usership. They as for input on issues, we respond, nothing changes. I am still amazed how they are surprised at the "negative feelings" some of the users have towards DM. I'm currently earning my MPA (Masters of Public Administration) and one of the courses I have taken is a course on leadership. There are 2 really big points that they teach us in that course:

1. Leadership cannot be taught or learned, it is inherent. You can, however, learn habits that can make you more effective

2. Leaders must make their "underlings" WANT to work/perform for them by motivation and a sense of ownership, rather than fear. Because while fear can increase productivity, it reduces quality. (in this case, underlings would be the forum membership)!

It would seem that DM could learn from these 2 points, on a number of different levels: from moderator selection and retention, to forum and site administration.

Again, just my $.02. Not meant as offensive, merely observational.

[Edited 2008-07-10 15:08:17]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26659
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:22 pm

The whole part about "constructive" criticism is rather dubious. I have made very constructive posts in the past and still had them deleted as being "too negative".
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:23 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Pep has been banned many many times before.

This again is the root of the problem:

We simply cannot trust you when you make statements that we know for a fact are untrue.

AFAIK, Pep has been banned exactly twice.
 
flyheligirl
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:29 pm



Quoting YYZAeroEng (Reply 37):
Now that you've read them, what is your plan of action? Are you going to show the users you're serious about addressing their concerns? What is your timetable for implementing changes to remove the fear of posting? When are you going to train you mods on consistently of rule application? When are you going to train your mods to provide timely responses to user questions?

We'd like to see some action on your part, not just words.



Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 39):
I think some words would be nice, just for starters.

Well, this thread has been open less than 48 hours so my plan is to let this run until the discussion has been exhausted. After that, I'll discuss all this with the mods and then I'll post.

I don't know what else to say for this moment. This thread was to start a discussion. I'm not going to read a handful of posts and randomly inflict all new rules. I don't run this site alone, we have a team behind it and if anything is going to change, it's going to have to be discussed internally as well. So for now, I don't have a set lists of changed, I just need to know how the members feel and that's what I'm finding out now.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 38):
I doubt that is so. You admit that posts to you are offensive, rude, and disrespectful. Does that not make you angry?

When people post rude, vulgar and disrespectful posts I feel sorry for them, not angry at them. 99% of the community can communicate things just fine so I'm not going to let a small group of disgruntled, aggressive users upset me. All the users posting here are calm and reasonable and this is the type of communications that Airliners.net tolerates... not threatening vulgarity or anything of the sort.
 
flyheligirl
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:37 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):
I can't attest to what he may/may not have done to break the rules for right now, but what you stated, Monique, is defamatory against the character of someone who currently doesn't have a voice to object here. I respectfully (and constructively) suggest the editing of that post.

I'll happily delete that statement because this thread is not about Pep, it's about posting rights.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 44):
This again is the root of the problem:

We simply cannot trust you when you make statements that we know for a fact are untrue.

AFAIK, Pep has been banned exactly twice.

I actually meant to say deletions... as in post deletions but I said bans. You are right - bans was not appropriate... it was deletions that he's had a lot of.

Let's try to move on from Pep and continue the conversation towards posting.

Thanks,

Monique
 
YYZAeroEng
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 45):
I just need to know how the members feel and that's what I'm finding out now.

From my observations, member here have been letting you know what you think in no uncertain terms. They've been doing this for quite some time. It's only now you choose to "listen"

You have had plenty of time to address many, if not all the issues raised in this thread.

Since you don't know what to say, I'll tell you what to say

1) You should say you'll collect ideas in this thread for x number of days
2) You will review those ideas with mods and generate a modified set of posting rules to be publish for public review by y date.
3) After z days of review mods will finalize new rules and post them for public consumption
4) All accounts banned during the period of admittedly wrong and heavy handed moderation will be reinstated
5) During this process you will re-train all moderators on how to handle critical posts and in professionalism when dealing with users
6) You will implement and more transparent and accountable method for dealing with moderator/user conflict.


Now you have a list, now you know what to say.
I expect in your next post a time line for implementing the above changes.
Mind that Bus! What bus? *Splat!*
 
N1120A
Posts: 26659
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RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:47 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 46):

I actually meant to say deletions... as in post deletions but I said bans. You are right - bans was not appropriate... it was deletions that he's had a lot of.

There are lots of people who have had lots of deletions, for all kinds of reasons. I am sure plenty of Pep's deletions were related to the referenced post being deleted.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
flyheligirl
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:56 pm



Quoting YYZAeroEng (Reply 47):
Since you don't know what to say, I'll tell you what to say

1) You should say you'll collect ideas in this thread for x number of days
2) You will review those ideas with mods and generate a modified set of posting rules to be publish for public review by y date.
3) After z days of review mods will finalize new rules and post them for public consumption
4) All accounts banned during the period of admittedly wrong and heavy handed moderation will be reinstated
5) During this process you will re-train all moderators on how to handle critical posts and in professionalism when dealing with users
6) You will implement and more transparent and accountable method for dealing with moderator/user conflict.

Thank you for your humble advice.

Answers to your list below:
1. When the thread is exhausted I'll close it
2. I'll review the ideas with the mods and generate an internal discussion to address these issues
3. We may or may not post new rules depending on if we have new rules
4. Banned accounts will not be reversed
5. All retraining is done through communication as it always has been, so the retraining will simply be discussing, setting standards and following them
6. Emailing mods if there is a deletion you don't understand will still be the appropriate method to deal with things. If you cannot solve it this way, you can always email me personally.

Thanks,

Monique

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