Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
PA110
Posts: 1990
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:03 pm

I was away from A.net for a few weeks, busy with other things, and just renewed by First Class membership a few days ago. I was completely unaware of the events that have recently occured, as I don't spend a whole lot of time in Site Related. I've never been banned, but have had several posts deleted - some with just cause. However, I cannot believe the names of people who have apparently been purged from A.net. Their permanent loss is a a loss for all A.nutters.

Had I known about this before renewing my membership, I honestly would not have renewed. I am therefore asking for my First Class membership money refunded. I would like to downgrade to Premium while I re-evaluate my commitment to this site. I am purposely doing this publicly on this thread, a) to see if it gets deleted and b) as a very public protest for what I feel is the continued downward slide of this site since transfer of ownership.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:27 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
I've admitted that we started enforcing our rules more strictly in reaction to increased numbers of aggressive/disrespectful posts. First step to correcting this is discussing this with the community and that's what were doing here.

1. Why do you think the number of aggressive/disrespectful posts had risen?

2. Discussing it with the community.
From what I have seen you dont listen, so thats not really going to work is it.

I dont need to say the number of times you have asked us stuff, and not listened,

This will be my final month as First Class, after that im downgrading my membership. I love the site so will stay, but only for the community, or whats left of it.

I did try to leave after a bad start to the year thanks to this site, but came back for some reason.
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:06 am

This post is meant in all due respect to DM and its 'mods':

I think that all of us who were at a.net for a decent period of time before the takeover know that the community that was here is gone, and I mean gone for good. We have learned from past experiences with DM that there is very little chance of things being reverted.

However, the community is not dead. It is just gone, moved on, rebuilding itself on another site. Sure, it's not the same, but the idea is there, and its a great site all the same.

This is the reality Monique, Paulo, Chris, and all other DM and moderator personell. This is the picture as it stands right now. I suggest that you not look at this post and think "Well, this guy here, this premium member, he doesnt like what we've done". I ask you to look at this post and think, "This kid is right, my site is heading down the tubes."

Because it is. And some serious changes need to be made. Starting now.

Cheers,
Kyle
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:34 am

This has got to be the angriest forum on Internet right now.
It's so sad to see this community fall apart. It's like seeing a maariage slowly crumbling. I'm not going to blame DM or the mods, or the users. It's just sad to see something that has been going on for so long, somenthing that made me lern so much about aviation, fall.
Again, I'm not blaming anyone, but something must be done asap if airliner.net, the real a.net, has any chance of survival.

Monique, why not have a fresh start? Maybe the banned users can come back with a heavy warning of some sort (at least the ines that have been banned for lighter reasons), but I think it would be a good and strong signal from you that you (by you I mean DM, don't take this personally) have them back. It's obvious that som of them are really respected people here, and having them back would be a breath of fresh air and would make everyone see that DM cares about its historical users.

Just a thought here, but really I am sad at what I see now  Sad
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:47 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 17):
1. Many questionable bans including very recently Pep

Pep has been banned many many times before. This is not his first run. He broke rules so his post was deleted, I don't know what else to say. Nothing out of the ordinary.



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 46):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):
I can't attest to what he may/may not have done to break the rules for right now, but what you stated, Monique, is defamatory against the character of someone who currently doesn't have a voice to object here. I respectfully (and constructively) suggest the editing of that post.

I'll happily delete that statement because this thread is not about Pep, it's about posting rights.

Still there, hours later. And from the "read" part next to how long ago a particular post is made, around 300 people may now have the wrong view about the guy.  thumbsdown 

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
Banned accounts will not be reversed

Those users may or may not want their accounts reversed. Some may be indifferent. I'm sure the finality of those sentiments aren't restricted to one side.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:03 am

I would suggest a couple of things:

1. Add transparency to the site. When things are carried out in secret, speculation and rumor will always arise. I think that it should be up to the user who has committed the purported infraction to decide whether or not their privacy should be respected. But when the user in question doesn't invoke any claim of privacy, it shouldn't be up to the Mods to invoke it on their behalf.

2. I would create a regular rotation system for the mod. Perhaps a two year term with 25% of the mods rotated every six months or so.

3. In the alternative, I would propose that the membership be allowed to vote on the retention of mods. At some level mods should be accountable to the people they moderate. As it stands now, it SEEMS that only "yes men / women" are wanted as mods.

4. Statistics on mod actions should be posted. Perhaps statistics such as number of thread deletions, locks and user bans should be made public. Again, without transparency false impressions are created amongst the membership.

5. I would find it very interesting if a user or group of users could be a part of a standing committee to oversee the mods. It is my impression (and I have no specific basis for this because the information is unavailable to me) that certain mods tend to delete certain types of posts. There are some mods who are known to be liberals and seem to go after posters of conservative topics. It would be very interesting to see if that hypothesis could be proven or refuted. How about a committee who reviews all deleted posts determines whether the post was conservative leaning or liberal leaning and then the statistic on mod deletions could be characterized to see if a bias does in fact exist. Same thing for bans.

6. User complaints should be responded to. I know that on multiple occasions I've sent respectful e-mails to mods on a post deletion only to receive no response or a rude dismissive response. Some of the responses are so rude that if they were sent by me to the mod, it would have surely resulted in my banning or deletion. So what is my recourse if that occurs? Who polices the mods.

Thanks for listening.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:15 am

Tick tock . . . tick tock . . . hours later . . . nothing done about a particular post in here . . .

. . . tick tock . . . tick tock . . .
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:39 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 45):
I just need to know how the members feel and that's what I'm finding out now.

Monique, come on. You all should be well aware by now of how we feel. It has been very obvious for a very long time. We have expressed our feelings over and over for months.

*And just to offer an example of "fearful posting", before hitting submit, I omitted some things from this post for fear of post deletion and other possible consequences. Nothing rude of vulgar or anything... So yeah, I guess a certain fear does exist...
 
flyheligirl
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:47 am



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 56):
Tick tock . . . tick tock . . . hours later . . . nothing done about a particular post in here . . .

. . . tick tock . . . tick tock . . .

I'll start this fresh in the morning and will pick up where I left off. I'm not ignoring anything, I've posted multiple times today and am doing my absolute best to keep this open and liberal as possible. I want time to digest all the feedback and respond fresh.

Thanks,

Monique
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:04 am

FWIW, I saw Kevin Turner, the COO of Microsoft speak this morning and one of his key points was the value he sees in tough, constructive criticism from their customers and partners. I've transcribed the relevant portions of what he said here:

Quote:
This is a super important event for us to get your feedback and be able to calibrate with you and share commitments on what we’re going to deliver to this next year. But certainly, I want to thank you throughout the year for your tough feedback. You all continue to give us good, tough, constructive feedback and I want you to know on behalf of all the senior management at Microsoft that we need that, we appreciate that, and want you to know to keep it coming because we’re just getting started as it relates to where we’re going from a technology viewpoint.



Quote:
My challenge to you all is to keep pushing us to do better. Sometimes feedback stings but what I tell our team internally is, “Look, there’s only two ways to do something, right or over.” And so, if we’re not right the first time we’re going to do it over, and we’re going to keep doing it until we get it right. So keep pushing us ladies and gentlemen to continue to get better.

Video is here: http://www.microsoft.com/digitalwpc/

Incidentally, there’s also an excellent talk from Muhammed Yunus on there as well. The two above sections are at 45:00 and 59:00

My point is that we seem to have made some progress today but in reality, we've reached a point where tough criticism seems to now be tolerated. When we can get to a point where it is truly encouraged and management shows some appreciation for its importance that's when we'll really be getting somewhere.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:18 am

I generally don't get involved in these threads, but since DM took over, The quality of my experience here has decreased greatly. When Johan and company ran things, issues were fixed FAST. When redesigns, etc. were done, it wouldn't take months, and they gave us target dates on when to expect them. We also had a feeling of family here. I loved it when on an April Fools Day a couple years ago, they turned the homepage pink (of course, I also thought my monitor went...). Since DM took over, there has been a lot more ads, and much more downtime. Since DM took over, I honestly feel that a-net has lost that "family" quality that it once had, only to be replaced by a corporation who is only interested in making money quickly. When Johan and company ran this site, sure, they charged for some memberships (although I joined before this, so mine is free), but this site was a labor of love - a love of aviation. That's what unites us - that's why all of us signed up for this site...to become a community.

Now I know that DM doesn't really care what we think - and Monique, please don't think that I'm attacking you personally - but maybe if enough people get annoyed and say something, maybe they will. Maybe someone here has the time/money/resources to start up a site like a-net where we can start fresh.

Now I know some people have left, but I don't think I'll be joining those ranks. I still come on here a couple times a day to browse the forums, and look forward to being able to use the chat room again - hopefully by the start of next year. Besides, why should I leave - I'm not paying for my membership.

Regards,

Marc

PS - if anyone wants to contact me, please don't use a-net's message system. I have a link to my facebook profile in my a-net profile.
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:22 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
4. Banned accounts will not be reversed

Will there be apologies for some of the people that were deleted, namely Halls120? You see, you need to fix the problem, not the symptom. Many people find what was done to be totalitarian and extreme.
 
747438
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:50 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 45):
I just need to know how the members feel

One word "cheated"

Quoting PA110 (Reply 50):
I am therefore asking for my First Class membership money refunded

I requested this 22 days ago. In error, I converted my photo sales money. As you can see, nothing has happened
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:08 am



Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 32):

Great post Andy!! (for an old git)  old   Wink

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Pep has been banned many many times before.

Please refer to:

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 9):
Communication, and most importantly, Honesty!

Maybe that should have said honest communication.  Yeah sure

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Nothing out of the ordinary.

Lately, I agree. But it hasn't always been this way.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 35):
   That one still mystifies me

And many, many others.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 45):
I just need to know how the members feel and that's what I'm finding out now.

Now!!??? Monique, you have got to be kidding me. It is just now that that you are finding out how the members feel??

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 46):
I'll happily delete that statement because this thread is not about Pep, it's about posting rights.

Over 12 hours and 300+ views - it's still there.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:46 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 45):
just need to know how the members feel and that's what I'm finding out now.

Your honestly telling us that you dont know how the users of this site feel?
Are the threads and posts and deletions not notice enough that we are unhappy?

Thought it would of been obvious, maybe not  Yeah sure  Confused
 
GPIARFF
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:36 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:29 pm

The members of this board had more of a sense of community than any other forum I have ever read or participated in. That was the main reason why I signed up for Airliners.

When DM took over the site it was obvious to me that there would be some discontent from some of the members - especially the "front and center" ones. There is no way to please everyone and most of us understand that.

What amazes me , though, is that although a few people were being vulgar and disrespectfull (and earning bans/deletions) during the changes, any comment critisizing the changes or asking for some explanation was also deleted, as a result of what you call "stricter moderating/application of the rules" , and many of what would be have been a legitimate question or comment in this community before the change in ownership was treated as a threat and the user was given a negative expeirence as a result.

It is no wonder that as a result of the (previously unanounced) heavier moderation the negativity increased, and then the response was even heavier moderation, and so on. A downward spiral, that was predictable with the chosen course of action.

In such an open community, when such a sweeping change is introduced, it would have been obvious to me that a little looser moderation ( not regarding vulgarity or personal attacks - but regarding unhappiness with the changes ) coupled with well reasoned, tempered, and copious communication form the new owners, would have been the prescription for helping keep the community happy. And I am not saying that you shouldn't have made the changes you felt necessary for the site that you now own, but what a difference it would have made if the changes came with some empathy, such as " I know many of you don't like this change, and we understand, but we feel that it is important to make it because of ............ ".

Instead we felt more like each change was coupled with almost no response from the crew or immediately defensive responses that showed no empathy.

As far as communication goes, it is imperative to communicate crew changes to the community. If you want to keep a community then treat your members like stockholders. And if you think that a change in management shouldn't be communicated to the stockholders then my whole post will fall on deaf ears.

I have found my sense of community elswhere and will not be posting here anymore, but felt that I should say this in parting as an explanation for my absense.

Ryan
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:39 pm



Quoting Viv (Reply 23):
"We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at our discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason.".

AKA we don't like you we delete you. You call us out We delete you. If You do one little thing wrong We delete You. Your name starts with an P we delete you. (the list goes on and on)
This rule needs to be changed because like I said You don't like my post You will delete me.
Maybe you should have a set of bi laws that give us the members rights and protect us from mods who like to press the big red button just for fun. I'll help you start......delete this rule. I don't think its right that we have to pay for this site and someone who doesn't like us for whatever reason can Delete me for no reason.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 36):
So am I afraid to post? of course not. But I try to avoid a few mods, because I know they will grab the opportunity to use obscure rules to ban me using administrative rules.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  Some mods I like and are great people and great for this site. (like PanAmDC10) then there are some.........better stop before I get banned.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):
I can't attest to what he may/may not have done to break the rules for right now, but what you stated, Monique, is defamatory against the character of someone who currently doesn't have a voice to object here. I respectfully (and constructively) suggest the editing of that post.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
4. Banned accounts will not be reversed

Even if they should still be here?

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 63):
Now!!??? Monique, you have got to be kidding me. It is just now that that you are finding out how the members feel??

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:47 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 66):
Some mods I like and are great people and great for this site. (like PanAmDC10) then there are some.........better stop before I get banned

I have the same. Im friends with a few mods. But some, well...........
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:52 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 66):
Some mods I like and are great people and great for this site. (like PanAmDC10) then there are some.........better stop before I get banned.



Quoting Trekster (Reply 67):
I have the same. Im friends with a few mods. But some, well...........

I think that is normal. You cannot like everybody  Wink but still, even if there has been some trouble, people should be treated with respect. And that counts for the user and for the mods.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:10 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 68):
I think that is normal. You cannot like everybody but still, even if there has been some trouble, people should be treated with respect. And that counts for the user and for the mods.

I agree (which is why i didn't list mods that I don't care for) But sometimes its not that I don't like the person but sometimes its the way the act and treat people. As noted some people would ask a question and some mods called it a "threat" and pushed a few buttons and they are gone. Something is wrong with that. Like I said we should have a list of rights which protect us. (like you say some people just don't like people and well if The mod doesn't like someone who (with rule 7G) can do nothing about it. the mod can say "well you said something I didn't like thats all you need to know good bye and thanks for all the money you gave us for nothing")
Maybe you guys need to make so that banning should have some kind of Checks and balances? Some way where the banns are looked at by a few other mods? Not just one mod but a group of 3-4? I'm sure no one will listing(shocking) so its pointless but here are some ideas.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:20 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 69):

I agree (which is why i didn't list mods that I don't care for) But sometimes its not that I don't like the person but sometimes its the way the act and treat people

And I appreciate you don't state these names.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 69):
Something is wrong with that. Like I said we should have a list of rights which protect us. (like you say some people just don't like people and well if The mod doesn't like someone who (with rule 7G) can do nothing about it. the mod can say "well you said something I didn't like thats all you need to know good bye and thanks for all the money you gave us for nothing")

That's what I meant by: treating with respect. I am only a chat mod and nothing to do with the forum. I had some fights in the chat as well. I talked to this guy I wanted to ban and gave him the chance to explain what just went wrong and gave him a chance to calm down. Many posts or comments are made from emotions and I wanted to give them a chance. But when they started to throw bad swear words at me, well what reaction do you expect? What would you do? Just let him get through with it? I haven't banned many in my a.net life and I always thought twice about it, but sometimes it just has to be done.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 69):
Maybe you guys need to make so that banning should have some kind of Checks and balances? Some way where the banns are looked at by a few other mods? Not just one mod but a group of 3-4? I'm sure no one will listing(shocking) so its pointless but here are some ideas.

In the chat we used to have a chatlog where every chat mod had access to, so if somebody got banned some other mod had the chance to read through it. I don't know the process for Forums though.
In general I think it is a good idea. If maybe the user just gets blocked for an hour or so until some other mod had looked above it and then 2 (or more) mods have talked about it. Then he will receive the ban or his accout will be active again.
On the other hand I hope that NO mod of us is biased somehow and thinks: I don't like that guy I will ban him...
I don't know if this is easily done. The Forum mods are pretty busy I assume. And I don't want that "blocked" time to be too long.
It's just a thought of mine...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:30 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 70):
In general I think it is a good idea. If maybe the user just gets blocked for an hour or so until some other mod had looked above it and then 2 (or more) mods have talked about it. Then he will receive the ban or his accout will be active again.

That is what I'm talking about. If for some reason (whatever it maybe) give both the mod and member time to cool off and then let 1-2 more mods look at what is going on and then talk it out.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 70):
But when they started to throw bad swear words at me, well what reaction do you expect? What would you do? Just let him get through with it? I haven't banned many in my a.net life and I always thought twice about it, but sometimes it just has to be done.

I agree which is why I think maybe we should like a cooling off period then talk about it. I agree if someone is just out of line swearing at me I would want to do it too but I think that again if we add some kind of cooling off period (in which member can't post) and let the other mods take a look into it then things will be much more fair and I would think we wouldn't have any deleteing just for fun.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:57 pm

I have been avoiding posting here for some time. And after this, regardless of if someone takes it to be offensive or non constructive I plan to go back to NOT posting and NOT generating hits for the site. Which, after all, is why the site exists- to get hits.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
there has been some growing pains, both technically and communicatively.

Many of which have been aggravated by bad communication from the ownership to the community. I know this is your site, and you may do with it as you please. However, this isn't a group of 14 year olds (well, it is turning into that now) like myspace. This is a site of a lot of experts in many fields. The users here don't tolerate being pushed around and ignored and they are not afraid to take their ball and leave the playground. Some of these people are at the top of their fields. They didn't get there by being bullied- which has been going on more and more by volunteer members of the crew.

You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
Comments started becoming more and more aggressive and unproductive.

That was a two way street. Private communications from ownership have been discussed on instant messengers between a lot of members both current and former. I will just say if communication came like that from one of my PAID employees to one of my customers I would be embarassed. I know some of it has been referred to Demand Media Human Resources because of how offensive it was.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
Threads that needed to be read and commented on where being littered with pointless, negative comments and clogging the readability for all users.

That is a matter of opinion. Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't mean it isn't constructive and productive. Someone somewhere needs to learn to tell the difference. I will agree that someone just saying "Demand media and all that work for it suck" is not constructive. But if someone says "Demand Media sucks" and lists 10 valid reasons I call that constructive. I don't know how you communicate but I have found in almost 3 years of on the street police work being short, direct, and to the point gets the job done a lot faster than sugar coating it. Honestly, I never found a sugar coated way of telling someone their kid was just hit by a drunk driver and is on their way to the hospital. Just like I can't sugar coat my thoughts on this place. I loved the site for many years. I don't love the direction it is taking. Is that soft enough?

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
Anything that is productive, this includes positive and negative comments.

So negative comments are allowed now? Why are hundreds of VERY productive negative posts culled from threads about crew changes and site modifications every night? If we can't speak our minds and support crew members just say so. Will you lose members over it? Yes. Having a thread with a lot of dissent is part of the growth of the site. Dig into the archives. We disagreed with Johan constantly. He did an excellent job of balancing his vision, the needs of the site, and the desires of the community. That is proven by the fact you guys bought the place. The bottom of the page is there for a reason. Do something good and a thread will start about that, we will kick it around for a while, and eventually that too will hit the bottom of the page. Not everything in life is pleasant.

You will learn FAR more about what your membership wants from the negative comments than the positive ones. I have had to tell more than a few trainees at work one thing that applies here: You need to stop taking things personally. Our feelings on the site do not have ANYTHING to do with our personal feelings towards you, Paulo, Diamond, VC-10, AC320, et al. You make a change to the site, someone is going to give their opinion. You may not like it, but it is their opinion and if it is respectfully conveyed you probably should let it stay. It might inspire others to speak up and voice their opinion. After a couple hundred posts of this you might find that you totally missed the boat on what your members wanted. Running an online community is about customer service. Isn't it? We are your customers, and I would say you have more than a vocal minority of pissed off customers.

As I said before, feelings on the site do NOT have anything to do with my feelings towards you. I would probably even be friendly to you if I ran into you at Starbucks.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
Any form of criticism is accepted

Really? I mean really? Then stop cutting the guts out of every thread in site related.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
I'm not always going to post 50 times in one thread,

That's fine. We don't need your input on everything. The membership here is pretty good about hashing out what they like and don't like and from reading that you can probably figure out the direction the active posters want. We are the customers, we will establish what we want and it is your job to implement it. Don't want to? Fine, we can and will go elsewhere.

I know you have like 80,000 members. That really doesn't mean anything. You need to be looking at how many of those members are actually active and how many are posting. Do what those want. Say you have 1,000 people who actively post. 800 of them don't like something. That doesn't mean .01% of the membership doesn't like something. It means 80% of the active members don't like something.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 3):
The mods are doing a fine job of dealing with a concerted and relentless attack on this site and its ownership.

Is the crew hiring? You do know it doesn't pay. Right?

I understand what the mods do. Contrary to what they think, their job is very much like police work. They deal with pissed off, emotional, and often intoxicated individuals. They need to learn to rise above some of the bull. They need to learn to stop letting personal vendettas come into things, they need to stop with things like spreadsheets of every violation that takes place. I mean come on. If someone is a big enough pain often enough you don't need a spreadsheet to know they have to go. It doesn't take a spreadsheet to identify troublemakers.

Also, an under the table email about someone's behavior is far more likely to bring about change than a slew of deletions and a ban.

Quit stacking violations, stop with the long term bans (they solve nothing). And if someone calls you a name try letting it go. I get called names every night. I let it go, it isn't worth the trouble making a big deal out of it.

Someone calls you an "ass".. Let it go, maybe you are being an ass. Maybe they will apologize in a few days. Banning them just creates an unhappy customer. And baiting them into calling you an ass and banning them for it is what we call a "Mall Security Mentality." Don't deny it happens.

Back to my point. You might be surprised how many written letters of apology I get a few days later. This isn't because a judge or someone made them do this. This is because people, especially educated ones have some degree of honor and respect. After they have had some cooling off time they realize what they did was wrong and will apologize for it. I guess it comes down to what the actual motivation behind the moderators actions is. Is it to be vindictive and show the community who is in charge? Or is it to do what is right for the community?

Your rules state that everyone has a right to their opinion. I hold some unpopular opinions, we all do. Respect for my opinions would be appreciated. Say some people disagree with me? Let us discuss it in the forum. That is why it is called a forum, we go there to discuss opinions.

You know another thing that pisses us off? Deleting a bunch of posts. Warning us. Then deleting a post 5 days old and banning us for it, especially when all this happens in a span of a few hours. That really didn't give us much chance to comply with the rules did it? You have just created an angry customer and a member who will gladly make the mods life difficult in the future.

On the long term ban issue. You guys might be surprised how well you would be served by a more liberal use of a 1 or a 3 day ban. 1-3 days for most minor offenses regardless of the number of times it has occurred is enough to let someone know they are wrong, but not so long they come back with a grudge. You think a year is showing someone who is boss? You are wrong. After that year is up that user comes back and acts exactly the same and now has a very negative view of ANY action the moderators take. Your last action has a direct effect on your next action. If you have a bad contact with a member and you just ban them instead of talking them down your next contact with that member will be even worse. I can assure you of that. It is human nature and I see it EVERY night.

Think I am crazy? Name for me a single user who came back from a year ban like they had seen the light, found Jebus, and never got a deletion again? I bet you can't do it.

Maybe the mods have been promised a payout. Have they? Some of them act as though they have been promised a large sum of money if they put down the dissent. I know I wouldn't create a list of members whose posts I had deleted unless there was money in it. I have better things to do with my time. I don't even keep a list of people I arrest or cite and that is my job. That doesn't mean I don't know it when I see someone I have had to mess with 3 times previously.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 33):
No surprise that this thread finds itself hijacked (as has consistently been the case with previous bona fide efforts on behalf of the site's ownership to address legitimate community concerns) by the usual suspects, in yet another public display of their false sense of entitlement.

We have a word for this.. But I won't say it here.

You can see the crew isn't impressed by your efforts. At least I hope that is the case.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 33):
Under no circumstances should a disgruntled minority be given free reign to wreak forum havoc, weaken crew morale, and foster division among the membership.

You may not remember this. But a while back a disgruntled minority was culled from the herd. Yet the dissent didn't stop. This would lead a reasonable person to believe that MAYBE they just culled the vocal members of the dissenters. Into the vaccum pours new vocal members. When the leadership gets killed it creates a vaccum that creates new leaders. In some cases the new leaders are even more passionate than the last ones.


A history teacher of mine once said the wisest things I have ever heard about war, and it applies here. 10% are for the war, 10% are against the war, 80% just want the war to go someplace else.

Well, when Johan sold the place 10% were against it, 10% welcomed the buyers with open arms. 80% didn't care and went on with life as normal. I was in the 80% as were guys like ANCFlyer, Queso, MDorBust, the list goes on and on. These guys were some of my favorite users and if I played the game would be on my respected users list. When more aggressive moderators started deleting things we wrote that were totally acceptable before and started telling us (not through words) that we had to love everything Demand Media did we started to move into that 10% against the sale. And we are all smart enough to know there isn't a damned thing we can do about it.

As I said before, this is your site. Do with it as you please. But if you continue down the road you are on you will NOT grow this into a larger thriving community of aviation experts and enthusiasts and the site will continue to lose members, lose hits, and lose value. This place is well on its way to being a bunch of 13 year old armchair CEOs and Flightsim Captains. The real CEOs and real Captains are being driven off by what I mentioned above. I consider myself an expert in my field and I wouldn't put up with this treatment on a forum about my profession.

As I said before I am done with this place until the atmosphere becomes less toxic.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:32 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):

Nail on the head. Good post. I agree 100% with everything said.
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:22 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):

Fantastic post CaptOveur. I totally agree, and hope that DM really takes the time to read all of that. It would be a shame for that much of your time to be a waste, Im sure that took a while.

Chers,
Kyle
 
YYZAeroEng
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:57 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):

Thank you for your humble advice.

You're welcome. I'm glad to help you when you're at a loss as to how correct the mistakes you've made.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
When the thread is exhausted I'll close it

Exhausted how? Users have been offering up suggestions, many are similar. The only that that hasn't changed is your response. So why not put a time line on this. It'll be a good way for you to show and track progress.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
2. I'll review the ideas with the mods and generate an internal discussion to address these issues

Well that just defeats the purpose of all this. If you're just going to run off into your hovel and not share the end result of the discussions with us, you're just going to end up in this same mess again. There's a reason people like transparency.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
3. We may or may not post new rules depending on if we have new rules

Fair enough.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
4. Banned accounts will not be reversed

Again, so you admit to wrong doing by the mods, yet you won't compensate those affected by your wrong doing? If people will use their re-instated accounts is irrelevant. You screwed up, you should make amends for it. The users do have a right to decline your compensation.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
5. All retraining is done through communication as it always has been, so the retraining will simply be discussing, setting standards and following them

How is this going to be verified? How are you gong to ensure standards are being followed?

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
6. Emailing mods if there is a deletion you don't understand will still be the appropriate method to deal with things. If you cannot solve it this way, you can always email me personally.

Since you've demonstrated time and again that you have no intention of listening to user criticism and suggestions how can we be sure that you'll be willing to handle user/mod conflicts fairly?
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:23 pm

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 45):
I just need to know how the members feel and that's what I'm finding out now.

Read CaptOveur's post. Study it. Absorb it. He sums up what a lot of us feel. That is, before it gets deleted.

Quoting GPIARFF (Reply 65):
any comment critisizing the changes or asking for some explanation was also deleted

This happened a lot with me. I was warned by the moderators to (and I'm paraphrazing) to "sit down, shut up, and accept it." Not the exact wording, but that was the intent.

[Edited 2008-07-11 09:28:15]
 
SoBe
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:11 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:36 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 46):
I'll happily delete that statement because this thread is not about Pep, it's about posting rights.

17 hours 43 minutes and counting
 
N1120A
Posts: 26852
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:59 pm

You know, I think there is a keen example of what people take issue with that was deleted in the KROC thread. I expressed my disappointment and gave constructive criticism, citing very real examples, about the whole situation with the removal of KROC and his replacements on the Head Moderator crew. It was removed, despite the fact that most members thought it was a salient post.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:02 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 76):
This happened a lot with me. I was warned by the moderators to (and I'm paraphrazing) to "sit down, shut up, and accept it." Not the exact wording, but that was the intent

I had a mod asking why I was posting alot in site related earlier this year, more than I had ever posted before and he could not understand why I was so unhappy with the site. Ended up with a ban cause of it in the end. They did not help by being very stupid with responses and threats.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting SoBe (Reply 77):
Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 46):I'll happily delete that statement because this thread is not about Pep, it's about posting rights.
17 hours 43 minutes and counting

And read over 800 times.

This can easily go back to some of the things many of us have said in this thread, and others. You said you would "happily delete that statement " but it's still here. And I know you can't be here 24/7, but other mods, certainly your head mods should be covering your back, and deleting it for you. But they have been too busy deleting other posts it seems.

That post is factually incorrect - it should go.
 
BA0284
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:09 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:07 pm

I've read a lot of this thread and found it very interesting. I cant remember the last time I've posted in these forums, just because i dont really like the feel of the website anymore. This isnt a dig to DM at all, at the end of the day, they say they're doing their best, and i maybe the only person that believes them but at the end of they day..they are people as well, only doing their job. I think the community is to blame as well.

I'm here for one reason only. My Love for aviation. But i feel almost scared to even discuss anything in the Civil Aviation forums only because i'm scared i might get slaughtered by other members if i say something untrue, something they dont agree on, or something of which the answer is obvious. I'll be the first to admit that i'm not a aviation expert, so i'm here to try and learn and be part of the community to find out and learn about the thing i love. Some members have a go at other people because of their age. "It's clear your a teenager" i read on a post recently. I know kids/teenagers can write some pretty dumb stuff, i was one myself (!), but at the end of the day we're all here for one thing. Aviation. Let's not get caught up in the whole "well that's a ridiculous comment, you're XX years old" sorta thing. I'm not referring to anything or anyone and i'm sorry if you feel that doesn't exist, but i feel (opinion!) that it's apparent on this website.

Yes i know that the majority of the community did not like the takeover by DM, but at the end of the day, nothing lasts forever. Change happens and we have to accept this. The website is still my favourite website, it's just going to take some time it to be 'perfect' and will meet all the users needs. For instance, they're changing the profiles on Facebook currently (well, next week i think!) I like how they are at the moment but i'm accepting that they cant stay like this forever. At the end of the day we're just a user, we dont own the website, we're just use it. It's like taking the train to work in the morning, we dont own it, but if they decide to take a specific train out of the timetable, then it's going to make some people unhappy, but we've got to live with it! (Yes ok that's a strange example, i'm just using it because it took me 3 hours to do a 20 min journey today!)

Nobody's perfect at the end of the day, we're only human! (well..99% of us anyway lol) I just dont like that some members nit pick and find any little error that DM or someone had done, and express their anger to them. That's my personal opinion btw, not fact, opinion! I've read through some of the slaughtering posts DM have received since things started going wrong, and i feel sorry for them. At the end of the day they're only doing their job, fair enough it went a bit wrong and they know this, they learn from this and they apologised.

To sum up...i only wish for one thing to improve in the future. The feel of the close nit community to return and the 'fear' of posting to be removed. I've seen some people get slaughtered by some members for not knowing obvious things, and i dont want to be the victim to that.

I'm going to end on 'quote':
"All Good Things Come To Those Who Wait" Big grin


Kind Regards,
BA0284  Smile
Chris

(P.S If i have offended anyone, or upset anyone or made it look like i am digging anyone or DM or anything, i really do not mean to. This is just my opinion, my 2 pence or whatever the phrase is. I feel i have to write this because i'm worried someone's going to slaughter me..sad and pathetic..i know..but still...)
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:19 pm



Quoting BA0284 (Reply 81):
I'm here for one reason only. My Love for aviation. But i feel almost scared to even discuss anything in the Civil Aviation forums only because i'm scared i might get slaughtered by other members if i say something untrue, something they dont agree on, or something of which the answer is obvious. I'll be the first to admit that i'm not a aviation expert, so i'm here to try and learn and be part of the community to find out and learn about the thing i love. Some members have a go at other people because of their age. "It's clear your a teenager" i read on a post recently. I know kids/teenagers can write some pretty dumb stuff, i was one myself (!), but at the end of the day we're all here for one thing. Aviation. Let's not get caught up in the whole "well that's a ridiculous comment, you're XX years old" sorta thing. I'm not referring to anything or anyone and i'm sorry if you feel that doesn't exist, but i feel (opinion!) that it's apparent on this website.

I know what you are talking about. It happens sometimes. It can be annoying, but then just think: well, I cannot know everything and I am just learning and then ignore such behaviour. You don't need to fear to be slaughtered. Nobody will do that. Mabye you get weird replies, but if they are offending to you, then use the "suggest deletion" button. Then the Forum mods will take a look at it.

You are so right: there is pretty much only one reason why we all are here: aviation! And many people forgot about it. This is about aviation, and you still can look at pics, you can read and post in the forum and get tons of information, the chat is working. Yes, there are bugs we all know.
Let's bring back this passion of aviation!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
flyheligirl
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:01 pm

Hi all,

I've received some really harsh but mostly constructive feedback from everyone so far. I feel we've covered all we can for productivity purposes. It's apparent how the members in this thread feel. We have an understanding of how the situation arose and we are trying to mend what we can for the future. If anyone has specific questions I'll try to answer them, yet I'd like to move forward versus have a continued battle of opinions or rediscuss every incident that occurred in the last 6 months.

My main goal for this thread was to allow people to voice their opinions and make positive change and moving forward is the only way this can be accomplished.

Next Steps:

1. The thread will be closed next Monday, 7/14 (timeline per a user's request)
2. I'll continue to answer questions but will focus on reading and discussing the plan with the mods so we get a solid plan, versus over discussing the past.
3. On Wednesday I'll post the plan after discussing with the mod team, 7/16
4. We can discuss again if necessary about the plan.
5. We can hopefully move forward with better, more open policies and processes for the community.


Thanks,

Monique
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:09 pm

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 83):
If anyone has specific questions I'll try to answer them, yet I'd like to move forward versus have a continued battle of opinions or rediscuss every incident that occurred in the last 6 months.

So that's it. You made the mistake, you screwed up, you admit it, but that's it. Let's just all forget about it eh. Great decision, Monique.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 34):
Pep has been banned many many times before. This is not his first run. He broke rules so his post was deleted, I don't know what else to say. Nothing out of the ordinary.

21 and a half hours. Still up.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 83):
On Wednesday I'll post the plan after discussing with the mod team, 7/16

Good! Were moving forward! But I think we should be allowed to vote on the plan. Only voters being First Class members and photographers. I know this excludes me, however, those are the only ones who still put their money into this website, thus they have a stake in the health and well being of this website.

But I look forward to that plan!

Cheers,
Kyle


EDIT:

PS -

I do not think it would be a bad Idea if a group of tenured members of a.net join together here, or, if not allowed, on another site, and decide on a course of action which we believe will be the best for the website. If anything, what we decide will INCREASE the hits and profits of a.net. Then we submit it for voting on by members and receive DMs input. This site will never regain what it had, but I am sure we can find a compromise.

I propose we take action, while there is still something to save!

[Edited 2008-07-11 13:22:08]
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 83):
1. The thread will be closed next Monday, 7/14 (timeline per a user's request)
2. I'll continue to answer questions but will focus on reading and discussing the plan with the mods so we get a solid plan, versus over discussing the past.
3. On Wednesday I'll post the plan after discussing with the mod team, 7/16
4. We can discuss again if necessary about the plan.
5. We can hopefully move forward with better, more open policies and processes for the community.

One step at a time, but at least its one step forward  Smile
let's hope this is a breakthrough point and from now on things start to improve!

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 84):
Only voters being First Class members and photographers.

Well, everyone did pay to become members, and if all of us (non first-class) members leave the site it would also be bad for the site. I think the crew should discuss as said, and then post conclusions/ideas on a separate thread and see everyone's feedback. With 20 posts or so you can tell what the mood is ... just an idea  Smile
 
N1120A
Posts: 26852
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 83):


I've received some really harsh but mostly constructive feedback from everyone so far.

The problem is, the extent is not always known because it ends up deleted.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 83):
We have an understanding of how the situation arose and we are trying to mend what we can for the future.

A major part of how this situation arose had to do with the systematic deletion/banning of a large group of rather prominent members who have been critical in a mostly constructive way about what has gone on here. That should be rather easy to understand, but would require a real inward look by those currently in charge.
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:48 pm



Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 84):
Only voters being First Class members and photographers.

 thumbsdown  If anything is put to a vote, all members should have a chance to vote.
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 87):
If anything is put to a vote, all members should have a chance to vote.

I suggest we vote on that, sir!  Wink
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 46):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):
I can't attest to what he may/may not have done to break the rules for right now, but what you stated, Monique, is defamatory against the character of someone who currently doesn't have a voice to object here. I respectfully (and constructively) suggest the editing of that post.

I'll happily delete that statement because this thread is not about Pep, it's about posting rights.

It's been a day since you've said this Monique, and the necessary action would take perhaps 30 seconds at most to do. With all due respect, if you're unwilling to commit to action something you said you wouldn't mind doing (and something that obviously has weighted value to some frequent users here), I think you and this site would be better served if you were to move to another position within DM.
 
flyheligirl
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:39 am

Hi,

We've discussed internally and because of the post below, we decided to leave it up as it included other information that was pertinent to the thread.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 46):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):

I actually meant to say deletions... as in post deletions but I said bans. You are right - bans was not appropriate... it was deletions that he's had a lot of.

Let's try to move on from Pep and continue the conversation towards posting.

Thanks,

Monique

Again, please let's move on from Pep, this conversation is not about that. I know not everyone would agree with our decision but please, let's stay on topic. If Pep has a problem with this, he knows who to email.

Thanks,

Monique
 
Boston92
Posts: 2607
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:52 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 90):
We've discussed internally and because of the post below, we decided to leave it up as it included other information that was pertinent to the thread

Is that a joke?

You actually wasted your time to "internally discuss" it instead of deleting and re-posting the so called pertinent info.  Yeah sure
 
BAViscount
Posts: 1977
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:29 am

I think this could well be the first time I've ever posted in Site Related (although I could be wrong), but I wanted to make my feelings known, especially as I could probably be considered as one of the 80% "I wish the war would happen elsewhere" contingent and am not generally particularly vocal.

To set the scene, and to let you know where I'm coming from, my main priority on here is the Trip Reports forum, where I try and contribute whenever I can, both from a "posting reports" perspective, as well as posting comments whenever I feel I have something to say. Following that, I've probably been most active in Non Av and Travel Polls & Preferences, and whilst I enjoy reading Civil Aviation, I seldom contribute, but appreciate what I can learn from that forum.

My general perception of the recent happenings is that this site has lost its sense of purpose, and has also lost a large number of those who are probably considered to be strong personalities, and who assisted in giving the site its purpose, direction and probably more importantly, its atmosphere. Had a sense of purpose and direction and a proactive approach to making people want to keep contributing to this website been implemented by site management prior to the recent course of action, I believe that things may have been different, but I have yet to see any evidence of that happening. Consequently, when the stronger members have either been banned, or have decided to remove themselves from the site altogether, the "backbone" of the site has in effect been removed, making the website a generally dull and boring place to be, and totally unlike the website that I joined many years ago.

Whilst it is generally accepted that there has to be a certain degree of policing of such a site, it's probably fair to say that it's the members who make the site what it is, build the sense of community and create the sense of being that makes it a site that people want to visit and contribute to on a regular basis. To encourage people to contribute it takes leadership, which I believe used to come from certain forum members, and probably the more outspoken members at that. If those members are removed, or choose to remove themselves, then the incentive for the less outspoken members to speak up and contribute is also removed. If that incentive is not replaced in some way or another, I believe the site will go downhill rapidly.

Whilst I continue to access airliners.net on a regular basis, I feel that it's no longer the website that I used to know and enjoy. The focus in recent times seems to have been to address the "issue" of the more outspoken members of the forum, without considering the consequences of their enforced/self-removal.

My question is therefore, when is site management going to concentrate on building this website into THE place to be for aviation enthusiasts, rather than making themselves perceived as those who want to tear down the community with their heavy-handed approach to dealing with those that they believe to be troublemakers? Whether that was a deliberate approach on the part of management or not is irrelevant, the fact remains that it generally seems to have been perceived as such and needs to be rectified.

I don't have an answer to how this matter should be addressed...it's not my job to come up with such solutions. I'm just giving my view of the situation and my opinion.

Andy.
 
User avatar
viaggiare
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):
Is the crew hiring? You do know it doesn't pay. Right?

I neither have the time nor the patience that is required of crew members, so no interest there. The day you see me hold a crew position... your favorite charity will get a US$500 check, I promise.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):
Maybe the mods have been promised a payout. Have they? Some of them act as though they have been promised a large sum of money if they put down the dissent.

Wow, to somehow suggest that their integrity and professionalism is negotiable... well, that is simply preposterous and irresponsible.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):
I know I wouldn't create a list of members whose posts I had deleted unless there was money in it.

How you judge these people might be a reflection of your own shortcomings. And I say that because there seems to be a pattern here. You once said (posted 10/02/05) that: "if Johan has exchanged his love of airplanes for love of money, which it appears is happening, what can any of us do?"

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):
This place is well on its way to being a bunch of 13 year old armchair CEOs and Flightsim Captains.

It becomes apparent that you have a fondness for making predictions. Almost three years ago, you also foretold (posted 09/08/05) that A.net would "meet the same end many sites have met, dollar signs will blind certain people to the real purpose of the site."

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):
We have a word for this.. But I won't say it here.

Good call there. Locker-room vocabulary would have made your post not a whit better.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):
people, especially educated ones have some degree of honor and respect. After they have had some cooling off time they realize what they did was wrong and will apologize for it.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are not only educated, but also quite honorable and respectful... thus I am hopeful that you will follow the example of these decent citizens.
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:52 am



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 93):

Why do you so loyally defend DM? What have they done for you? You really do not see what is going on here?

Cheers,
Kyle
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:07 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 91):
Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 90):
We've discussed internally and because of the post below, we decided to leave it up as it included other information that was pertinent to the thread

Is that a joke?

You actually wasted your time to "internally discuss" it instead of deleting and re-posting the so called pertinent info.

And the subtle slant remains . . . but, like said, lets move on to other things . . . unfortunately, from this side they're pretty much all trivial in comparison.

Since we're "moving on" here, I have a question - what qualifications does Paulo Emmanuele have to be the "General Manager" of this site? I've found that years ago he was an engineer for an oil company and then was (maybe still is) in charge of a place called "Supernating Superdudes". So, from what is usual in business, someone gets to where they are by either (A) knowing someone and/or (B) having certain skills and/or experience. So someone tell me what experience Paulo had coming to Anet being an engineer and a fan of superheroes. While the thought of "help out needy students" is noteworthy, I'm curious how the experience of that plus being an engineer equates to being capable of managing an online community. Just a thought, perhaps something for my own instruction.

On a side note, superdudes seems to be currently suffering a fate this place used to suffer. I hope you can get your site up again soon, but, one more thing - is that Richard Rosenblatt holding the light bulb there? Is he a "superdude", too?   

Wow, I didn't know the issues have been going on at Superdudes for so long.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 93):
Almost three years ago, you also foretold (posted 09/08/05) that A.net would "meet the same end many sites have met, dollar signs will blind certain people to the real purpose of the site."

I'd say he was closer to the truth then than some people are now.

Edited for content - eventually I'll get the grammar right.

[Edited 2008-07-11 19:13:48]
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 93):
Almost three years ago, you also foretold (posted 09/08/05) that A.net would "meet the same end many sites have met, dollar signs will blind certain people to the real purpose of the site."



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 93):
How you judge these people might be a reflection of your own shortcomings. And I say that because there seems to be a pattern here. You once said (posted 10/02/05) that: "if Johan has exchanged his love of airplanes for love of money, which it appears is happening, what can any of us do?"



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 93):
I neither have the time nor the patience that is required of crew members, so no interest there.

But you do have the time and the patience to go back three years to find something I posted that you think almost supports your point of view? I think someone needs a life.

Actually, what I wrote supports what I am saying. This place is a money making operation, I
understand that. However, it seems to me and many on this board the current ownership is putting money ahead of everything. That supports what I wrote and you quoted.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 93):
Wow, to somehow suggest that their integrity and professionalism is negotiable

You mean like crew members who never post a last name, or a real picture of themselves and hide behind multiple email addresses and have a reputation for stabbing fellow crew members in the back?
 
User avatar
viaggiare
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:01 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 96):
But you do have the time and the patience to go back three years to find something I posted

It took me less than ten minutes, no big deal.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 96):
I think someone needs a life.

Funny that you would say that, considering your first post (#72) contained a little over two thousand words.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 96):
However, it seems to me and many on this board the current ownership is putting money ahead of everything. That supports what I wrote and you quoted.

If anything, it is proof that you've been beating the same old horse for the last three years, long before Johan even thought of selling the place.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 96):
You mean like crew members who never post a last name, or a real picture of themselves and hide behind multiple email addresses and have a reputation for stabbing fellow crew members in the back?

A mere accusation based on speculation and conjecture, if not sheer temerity.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 94):
You really do not see what is going on here?

I do, but the end does not justify the means. Unfortunately, there has been no shortage of manipulation throughout this entire ordeal.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:12 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 90):
Again, please let's move on from Pep,

Monique, this tells me that you aren't hearing the situation. This isn't just about Pep, It is a bigger issue then Halls, Pep, Kroc, Ted, or any of the others that are here, left, forced out, killed, and it relates directly to to user satisfaction with the management here.

I think by considering that we are only

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 83):
1. The thread will be closed next Monday, 7/14 (timeline per a user's request)

See, that tells me that you don't want this discussion to continue and wish to shut down debate....I don't think that is a smart idea....this thread is currently a safety valve, I wouldn't wire it shut at this juncture.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 49):
4. Banned accounts will not be reversed

In the thread about Kroc I linked a thread that I started after I had a blow up with Johan. I asked you to visit it and read it. Based on that statement I don't think you did, or at the very least didn't get the message I wanted to you get.

https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...archid=217859&s=Jack+Paar#ID217859

Even after that blow up six years ago, we where able to make peace. It seems that with that statement you and the DM management have no desire to.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 54):
Those users may or may not want their accounts reversed. Some may be indifferent. I'm sure the finality of those sentiments aren't restricted to one side

Yeah, it is a law in economics when a commodity becomes unavailable alternatives appear, and now there are alternatives that are being created.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 72):
Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 33):
No surprise that this thread finds itself hijacked (as has consistently been the case with previous bona fide efforts on behalf of the site's ownership to address legitimate community concerns) by the usual suspects, in yet another public display of their false sense of entitlement.

We have a word for this.. But I won't say it here.

I disagree, this thread has not been hijacked, but rather moved beyond the narrow focus that the thread starter wished it to have. That should be considered part of the natural life cycle of a thread.

You prune a bush too much and you kill it.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 83):
Next Steps:

1. The thread will be closed next Monday, 7/14 (timeline per a user's request)

As I said that is a mistake, and I think that will be interpreted by the users here that you want to shut off discussion and don't care

2. I'll continue to answer questions but will focus on reading and discussing the plan with the mods so we get a solid plan, versus over discussing the past.

I know you want to go from the past, but the past is exactly how we ended up here with these issues, Didn't somebody say something about "Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it"

3. On Wednesday I'll post the plan after discussing with the mod team, 7/16

A new thread is appropriate but I do think that shutting this one down is a mistake

4. We can discuss again if necessary about the plan.

Fair enough, but depending on what happens that could be a hot one or not

5. We can hopefully move forward with better, more open policies and processes for the community.

I share that hope, but part of moving forward is undoing the wrongs of the past
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Fearful Of Posting?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:20 am



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 97):
A mere accusation based on speculation and conjecture, if not sheer temerity.

Not really. It is based on several years experience on the board and a quick look at the crew information. Along with social contacts with other very active, long-time posters. You can search 3 years deep into the archive. Search that.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 97):
Funny that you would say that, considering your first post (#72) contained a little over two thousand words.

I never claimed to not have "time or patience."

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos